2002 Windsor High Charge Voltage at Startup Anomaly

[Tom Cherry]

6 minutes ago, tmw188 said:

I’m in the middle of cleaning up my house battery tray so I can reinstall the batteries. I will confirm charging is active while motor is running and on gen. 

No RUSH.  We need to talk.  If you do the tests, then we will have an answer to a mystery that is really important and will allow folks, especially, the Moderators, to give a more comprehensive and accurate answer to some things that always pop up.  This is how we learn and folks that will do the testing are a valuable resource....wear safety glasses...  LOL...

[Mark B]

Here are some pictures of my original setup before I made some updates. I talked with tmw188 he asked me to post these pictures.

 

 

 

Edited May 1 by Mark B

[jacwjames]

Thanks for posting Mark.  

Does your coach start with the chassis battery disconnect OFF?

So the big changes are that the Lambert 415 has been disabled by removing the red wire and ground AND  bottom stud on the Lambert is just being used to connect the coach wire from the Isolation Solenoid to the BIRD with a white wire that is plugged into coach battery spad on the BIRD (which is open in the original setup).  Pretty simple work around to eliminate the Lambert and convert the charging system to the new BIRD style charging.  

I believe this is the work around that Tom described. 

Edited May 1 by jacwjames

[Mark B]

13 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Thanks for posting Mark.  

Does your coach start with the chassis battery disconnect OFF?

So the big changes are that the Lambert 415 has been disabled by removing the red wire and ground AND  bottom stud on the Lambert is just being used to connect the coach wire from the Isolation Solenoid to the BIRD with a white wire that is plugged into coach battery spad on the BIRD (which is open in the original setup).  Pretty simple work around to eliminate the Lambert and convert the charging system to the new BIRD style charging.  

I believe this is the work around that Tom described. 

I have never tried starting the coach with the disconnect off. I have removed the old trickle charge system and added some other equipment as seen in the attached picture

[Tom Cherry]

22 minutes ago, Mark B said:

I have never tried starting the coach with the disconnect off. I have removed the old trickle charge system and added some other equipment as seen in the attached picture

OK...for the RECORD...  The pictures verify that the Intellitec BIRD Diesel(maybe original...but who knows) is in place.  But it is TOTALLY non functional.  That means the BIRD SYSTEM or BiDirectional charging has been removed. The RELAY terminal on the Module is the OUTPUT to one of the BOSCH relays pictured.  Which ever one....then goes to the BOOST or the White Rodgers Solenoid.

That relay is wired thusly... If you read the previous post with pin numbers, that is explained.

IF the BOOST switch works...then all the OP or whomever did was disable the BIRD.  The BIRD output (RELAY Terminal) goes to that Relay.  BUT that Relay is also the CONTROL relay for the White Rodgers.

AS USUAL....interesting.  NOTE that the Generator Terminal is used.  Todd's is NOT.  

FWIW,

I sent Todd a sheet so he can measure voltages.  We, Frank and myself, need this so we can help others. That will answer the questions. 

MY INTERPRETATION....from your comments.  The ORIGINAL Windsor did NOT have a "Trickle" charger.  It had a THIEF system.  That was a device that bled power off the House (assuming there was AC power) and then charged the Chassis Battery.  On the OEM Windsor circuit....that function was NOT available...  I can't remember the device's brand name...but Amp - L - Start or such are out there and being used...  As long as there is POWER and the House is being Charged...then it will siphon off and charge the Chassis.  There is a PCB and a few Diodes to keep it from stealing power and draining the House.

Your Orion-Tr-Smart is a variation of that....if I read correctly.  I am ASSUMING that you have it wired so that the Alternator puts out a signal or is used for POWER.  Then you can add the House and you will get or siphon off charging current for the Chassis...

There appears to be many configurations or uses.  Is that how you are using it.

Most folks, when the hear or read "Trickle" charger on the site think...  an AC powered, low output (usually 2 or so amps) charger that will maintain the Chassis and NOT overcharge it or damage it.

Could you elaborate on how you have it configured and what it does or is intended to do....

We all learn....

Thanks...

 

 

[Mark B]

Just now, Tom Cherry said:

OK...for the RECORD...  The pictures verify that the Intellitec BIRD Diesel(maybe original...but who knows) is in place.  But it is TOTALLY non functional.  That means the BIRD SYSTEM or BiDirectional charging has been removed. The RELAY terminal on the Module is the OUTPUT to one of the BOSCH relays pictured.  Which ever one....then goes to the BOOST or the White Rodgers Solenoid.

That relay is wired thusly... If you read the previous post with pin numbers, that is explained.

IF the BOOST switch works...then all the OP or whomever did was disable the BIRD.  The BIRD output (RELAY Terminal) goes to that Relay.  BUT that Relay is also the CONTROL relay for the White Rodgers.

AS USUAL....interesting.  NOTE that the Generator Terminal is used.  Todd's is NOT.  

FWIW,

I sent Todd a sheet so he can measure voltages.  We, Frank and myself, need this so we can help others. That will answer the questions. 

MY INTERPRETATION....from your comments.  The ORIGINAL Windsor did NOT have a "Trickle" charger.  It had a THIEF system.  That was a device that bled power off the House (assuming there was AC power) and then charged the Chassis Battery.  On the OEM Windsor circuit....that function was NOT available...  I can't remember the device's brand name...but Amp - L - Start or such are out there and being used...  As long as there is POWER and the House is being Charged...then it will siphon off and charge the Chassis.  There is a PCB and a few Diodes to keep it from stealing power and draining the House.

Your Orion-Tr-Smart is a variation of that....if I read correctly.  I am ASSUMING that you have it wired so that the Alternator puts out a signal or is used for POWER.  Then you can add the House and you will get or siphon off charging current for the Chassis...

There appears to be many configurations or uses.  Is that how you are using it.

Most folks, when the hear or read "Trickle" charger on the site think...  an AC powered, low output (usually 2 or so amps) charger that will maintain the Chassis and NOT overcharge it or damage it.

Could you elaborate on how you have it configured and what it does or is intended to do....

We all learn....

Thanks...

 

 

So in my case Tom, I kept the "Boost" connection to the relay between the house and Chassis batteries. I'm not sure if my BIRD was set up as a bidirectional relay from the start or it was not working. So here is what I have: The House batteries are charged from my inverter charger when plugged into shore power. The coach battery is charged by the AMP-L-Start (DC to DC charger) as you say stealing power from the coach battery. I have lithium coach batteries and the AMP-L-Start has a dip switch for that configuration. However, I have found that the AMP-L-Start can sometimes be unreliable so I added a NOCO 3 amp charger that is plugged into my block heater receptacle in the engine compartment and I can turn it on and off from the switch up front. It will still charge when I'm on the inverter so I don't want that. The NOCO is connected to the coach battery. The Orion (DC to DC charger) is connected to the circuit coming from the alternator and limits the current draw to 30 amps for charging the house battery bank.

My system has been solid since I added the NOCO charger. I thought I might have had some circular charging between the two battery banks but I don't think that was the case in the end.

So basically I can charge both my batteries from multiple sources depending on whether I'm plugged in or not. I also have 700 watts of solar on my roof as well.

[jacwjames]

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

OK...for the RECORD...  The pictures verify that the Intellitec BIRD Diesel(maybe original...but who knows) is in place.  But it is TOTALLY non functional.  That means the BIRD SYSTEM or BiDirectional charging has been removed. The RELAY terminal on the Module is the OUTPUT to one of the BOSCH relays pictured.  Which ever one....then goes to the BOOST or the White Rodgers Solenoid.

That relay is wired thusly... If you read the previous post with pin numbers, that is explained.

IF the BOOST switch works...then all the OP or whomever did was disable the BIRD.  The BIRD output (RELAY Terminal) goes to that Relay.  BUT that Relay is also the CONTROL relay for the White Rodgers.

AS USUAL....interesting.  NOTE that the Generator Terminal is used.  Todd's is NOT.  

FWIW,

I sent Todd a sheet so he can measure voltages.  We, Frank and myself, need this so we can help others. That will answer the questions. 

MY INTERPRETATION....from your comments.  The ORIGINAL Windsor did NOT have a "Trickle" charger.  It had a THIEF system.  That was a device that bled power off the House (assuming there was AC power) and then charged the Chassis Battery.  On the OEM Windsor circuit....that function was NOT available...  I can't remember the device's brand name...but Amp - L - Start or such are out there and being used...  As long as there is POWER and the House is being Charged...then it will siphon off and charge the Chassis.  There is a PCB and a few Diodes to keep it from stealing power and draining the House.

Your Orion-Tr-Smart is a variation of that....if I read correctly.  I am ASSUMING that you have it wired so that the Alternator puts out a signal or is used for POWER.  Then you can add the House and you will get or siphon off charging current for the Chassis...

There appears to be many configurations or uses.  Is that how you are using it.

Most folks, when the hear or read "Trickle" charger on the site think...  an AC powered, low output (usually 2 or so amps) charger that will maintain the Chassis and NOT overcharge it or damage it.

Could you elaborate on how you have it configured and what it does or is intended to do....

We all learn....

Thanks...

 

 

Go back and look at Mark's first post with pictures, it shows the BIRD & Lambert maintainer.  This is what I was looking at when I made the comments and then comparing to the photos that Todd posted. 

Mark's second post shows the modes he's done to include the solar charger and the trickle charger. 

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, Mark B said:

So in my case Tom, I kept the "Boost" connection to the relay between the house and Chassis batteries. I'm not sure if my BIRD was set up as a bidirectional relay from the start or it was not working. So here is what I have: The House batteries are charged from my inverter charger when plugged into shore power. The coach battery is charged by the AMP-L-Start (DC to DC charger) as you say stealing power from the coach battery. I have lithium coach batteries and the AMP-L-Start has a dip switch for that configuration. However, I have found that the AMP-L-Start can sometimes be unreliable so I added a NOCO 3 amp charger that is plugged into my block heater receptacle in the engine compartment and I can turn it on and off from the switch up front. It will still charge when I'm on the inverter so I don't want that. The NOCO is connected to the coach battery. The Orion (DC to DC charger) is connected to the circuit coming from the alternator and limits the current draw to 30 amps for charging the house battery bank.

My system has been solid since I added the NOCO charger. I thought I might have had some circular charging between the two battery banks but I don't think that was the case in the end.

So basically I can charge both my batteries from multiple sources depending on whether I'm plugged in or not. I also have 700 watts of solar on my roof as well.

Cool.  Well stated.  Functional for you and you know the caveats.

As to the question.  If you look at the prints or follow the circuits, the OEM BIRD system was SORT if a BiDirectional….and could if you wanted, be reconfigured easily again since it doesn’t look “gutted”.  The system worked thusly.

On Shore….the Chassis was NOT charged.  They had a “thief” in there.  Now, others will differ….and I don’t know the reliability of every one of the knock offs.  They all work the same,…but, as you said….some have issues.  So that is my take and reliability, plus not particularly liking the “thief” is a pet peeve.

OK…driving DOWN the highway,  IF you reconnected the solenoid or “Relay” wire back to the Bosch Relay, which is also the same relay that powers your boost, you would charge the House Bank.

I am currently working with Todd to determine how his BIRD module works….as I THINK that Intellitec updated it, in subsequent versions, so that is works like mine. Mine is a TRUE BIRD.  BUT….Will the White Rogers solenoid function with a 3 VDC Pulsed signal.  THAT is the real issue.  IF NOT….then it probably makes more sense, assuming you or Todd did want the robust BIRD charging to install the ML-ACR.  Cost wise….the same or less that the combined outlay of the latest version of the BIRD module and the Intellitec Big Boy that is designed to work with it,

Again…thanks,,,

2 hours ago, jacwjames said:

Go back and look at Mark's first post with pictures, it shows the BIRD & Lambert maintainer.  This is what I was looking at when I made the comments and then comparing to the photos that Todd posted. 

Mark's second post shows the modes he's done to include the solar charger and the trickle charger. 

YES….I was doing that when you posted.  My comments are there and the information is helpful….and I understand the system…..as I did early on.  Todd’s works….or we are testing.

Mark”s could be restored….should he desire.  

[tmw188]

Thanks Mark for getting those pics posted of your setup before you changed things, it will help Tom decipher whether my setup has been modified and how it works. I have some readings I need to take for Tom to help with his homework behind the scenes.

[Tom Cherry]

The topic of question about charging has been resolved.  Since it was a general interest issue,

the results of the tests as well as how Todd’s 2002 Windsor was “factory” configured is now in a new topic.

Here is the link.   Please respond or comment on that issue there.  Thanks….