rbeachy206 Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 I'm getting ready to install a bank of 4 new Trojan T-105's. I selected these after reviewing many threads here and researching the pros and cons of LiFeCO4. I also learned from Tom Cherry (thanks Tom) about exercising these batteries on a regular basis, which I've never done or heard of. My question is, would you do this right away or wait 6 months, or does it matter? We're connected to AC power (shore or gen) 98% of the time. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 8 minutes ago, rbeachy206 said: I'm getting ready to install a bank of 4 new Trojan T-105's. I selected these after reviewing many threads here and researching the pros and cons of LiFeCO4. I also learned from Tom Cherry (thanks Tom) about exercising these batteries on a regular basis, which I've never done or heard of. My question is, would you do this right away or wait 6 months, or does it matter? We're connected to AC power (shore or gen) 98% of the time. Thanks My take….and I asked Trojan that. Depends. If they sat around in inventory for month? YES. If one plans on using them and discharging to say the “50 odd %” level? NOPE. I ran my last new set down…..then recharged. The voltage and hydrometer said 100%…..quit and drove on. Sugguest you get a good hydrometer. I compared the old fashioned to a refraction one. Little difference…and each has points. The refractive will check coolant….it was more tedious to me to get the screen wetted down. The gravity hydrometer needs to be level, needs to be “checked”….but I prefer it. This one is my choice. Getting the liquid to the top fill line and level is easy. It also has a calibration check. Flush it our with distilled water….then fill. There is a ZERO or 1.00 or “water” mark so you can rest assured your using it right. Battery Miser Caps are a must…. Good Luck… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K9 Exec Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 Hi Bob, I agree with Bob's assessment 100%. I have been doing this a while and will say, that is solid advice. Worst thing you can do is keep the T-105's on charge and forget about them for a year. That's how they die. Also, battery miser caps are a huge plus in my book. Time and mess saver! Best of luck:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbeachy206 Posted May 19 Author Share Posted May 19 Thank you. Hydrometer is on its way, and I already received the battery caps. Picking up the batteries on the 25th. Here's hoping for 8 years out of this set. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 30 minutes ago, rbeachy206 said: Thank you. Hydrometer is on its way, and I already received the battery caps. Picking up the batteries on the 25th. Here's hoping for 8 years out of this set. You are now one of my prized pupils…and you will gst unbelievably high life… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96 EVO Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 6 hours ago, rbeachy206 said: I'm getting ready to install a bank of 4 new Trojan T-105's. I selected these after reviewing many threads here and researching the pros and cons of LiFeCO4. I also learned from Tom Cherry (thanks Tom) about exercising these batteries on a regular basis, which I've never done or heard of. My question is, would you do this right away or wait 6 months, or does it matter? We're connected to AC power (shore or gen) 98% of the time. Thanks Manufacturer of my FLA house batteries claim they don't reach peak performance for the first 60-90 cycles! You may as well start right away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 Do the UNTHINKABLE...call Trojan. What I posted is what they told me. You can ask them about Ben's comment or such. They will agree, disagree or debunk. I have NEVER heard that...but I focus on Trojan. https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-804-how-to-prolong-lead-acid-batteries They say 20 - 50....but the tech told me not to do that...as long as the DVOM and the Specific Gravity (using a NUMERICAL and calibrated one...like the one I use and posted.... Read this. Have it in a browser or PDF or print it out. Call Trojan and ASK THEM. WE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbeachy206 Posted May 21 Author Share Posted May 21 I've emailed and left a voice message. I'll report back if I hear from Trojan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96 EVO Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 Did you make sure they understood you were enquiring about their batteries, and not their condoms 🤣? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 On 5/19/2024 at 4:03 PM, Tom Cherry said: Do the UNTHINKABLE...call Trojan. What I posted is what they told me. You can ask them about Ben's comment or such. They will agree, disagree or debunk. I have NEVER heard that...but I focus on Trojan. https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-804-how-to-prolong-lead-acid-batteries They say 20 - 50....but the tech told me not to do that...as long as the DVOM and the Specific Gravity (using a NUMERICAL and calibrated one...like the one I use and posted.... Read this. Have it in a browser or PDF or print it out. Call Trojan and ASK THEM. WE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW... I scanned the User's guide earlier...but went back and read it again. On page 23, this what it says. Trojan’s deep-cycle flooded batteries take 50 - 100 cycles to achieve full, peak capacity. Now, to put that in proper perspective. This does NOT say...you must cycle the batteries for up to 100 times before they are at peak capacity....and DO THIS BEFORE YOU USE THEM. What Trojan has always told me... The batteries are assumed to be 100% charged. Put them in and let them charge up. IT IS ASSUMED that the electrolyte level is proper. IF, and a BIG IF, you want to check the Specific Gravity and Voltage, you can do that, but do that before your install. They may be down, a little, but this is normal. I did reread the manual....which is below. Nothing in there says... "OK...you gotta...". Remember the comment about PEAK is for the life of the battery. The battery only has a limited number of recharging cycles. The manual states Do not discharge your battery to more than 80% depth of discharge. This safety factor will eliminate the chance of over-discharging and damaging your battery. OK....now this will be BLASPHENOUS... There is NOTHING that I read that says that 50% is the ideal discharge level... I did a KEY WORD Search "50". Thirty Seven (37) places in the text that "50" was used....Nothing stated to let them run down to 50%....and that was when you recharged. I also did a Google Search. Same deal on both initial use and also discharging... Assume they are (NEW) charged...use them. Top off, using a 3 Phase (like our inverters) charger is you want to. PERSONALLY... this is revolutionary. However, if you sort of back away.... In MH's, we typically or some do (not the Dynasty and up) start the Genny from the HOUSE. Magnum says..."don't go too far down on the AGS...as you need to have adequate storage or power to restart". OF COURSE. NOW....many might quibble with this...so here is the link to the new (2023) Trojan guideline.... https://assets.ctfassets.net/nh2mdhlonj7m/6lQJqxzrc3Yh5dg8HNHknR/85b0d103cb3f5f85f8ba2b7c3c3ab27b/2023005-Users-Guide-FLOODED-AES-AGM-GEL-WEB.pdf I'm including @Frank McElroy and asking that this be added to our files. That's it....will be interesting to hear what Trojan comes back with. NOW DON'T BE SURPRISED...In the past the tech support folks said when directly ASKED.... NEVER equalize FLA Trojans....unless they are so far gone....that will be the LAST resort. If you read the guideline....there are SPECIFIC tests and criteria....but not a BLAND... Don't EQUALIZE or DO EQUALIZE... The debate will rage.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbeachy206 Posted May 21 Author Share Posted May 21 Well I had a call from Trojan today. I can't say I was terribly impressed with his apparent technical knowledge, but he did confirm the need to exercise them once or twice a year, and that failing to do so will diminish their useful life. He didn't think it mattered whether I do it now or wait a few months. Since we're mostly on AC power I think I'll do several cycles right away to get off to a good start. I also noticed the 80% mention in the manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96 EVO Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 What 'I' do, if I'm doing a boondocking weekend or week, is I'll put 3 cycles on the batteries before leaving home. I use my coffee maker to draw them down to about 12.0V, then fully charge them. This is a DC 90A load for about 6min at a time, with a cooldown period for my inverter between brews. Some think this is too high amp draw, but, it's been working for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 2 hours ago, rbeachy206 said: Well I had a call from Trojan today. I can't say I was terribly impressed with his apparent technical knowledge, but he did confirm the need to exercise them once or twice a year, and that failing to do so will diminish their useful life. He didn't think it mattered whether I do it now or wait a few months. Since we're mostly on AC power I think I'll do several cycles right away to get off to a good start. I also noticed the 80% mention in the manual. My vote is no. The bank has a finite number of cycles. The bank can be depleted until there is a concern about having the capacity to crank the genny, assuming that the house bank is what is starting the Genny. If one has the Genny start from the Chassis, then theoretically, one could do maybe 65% or so. Ben’s ( @96 EVO ) load is twice the recommended 10% rate. NOW, if he waits and lets the batteries recover and the average draw is 45 Amps per hour (90 Amps for 30 minutes and 0 amps for 30 minutes), that meets the recommended drain. A 450 Watt Lowes or other Quartz Halogen work light works well…and is a constant, as specified, drain. Whatever you do, other than throw several hundred amps….then stop and repeat, will work. The Trojan answer is consistent with what they told me. NOW….wonder what howl’s I’d get if I revised the “OK to drain to 60/70% SOC if your Chassis starts the Genny?” Odds are….the new bank, properly maintained and exercised will last upwards towards 10 Years… Rock ON….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McElroy Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 10 hours ago, Tom Cherry said: I scanned the User's guide earlier...but went back and read it again. On page 23, this what it says. Trojan’s deep-cycle flooded batteries take 50 - 100 cycles to achieve full, peak capacity. Now, to put that in proper perspective. This does NOT say...you must cycle the batteries for up to 100 times before they are at peak capacity....and DO THIS BEFORE YOU USE THEM. What Trojan has always told me... The batteries are assumed to be 100% charged. Put them in and let them charge up. IT IS ASSUMED that the electrolyte level is proper. IF, and a BIG IF, you want to check the Specific Gravity and Voltage, you can do that, but do that before your install. They may be down, a little, but this is normal. I did reread the manual....which is below. Nothing in there says... "OK...you gotta...". Remember the comment about PEAK is for the life of the battery. The battery only has a limited number of recharging cycles. The manual states Do not discharge your battery to more than 80% depth of discharge. This safety factor will eliminate the chance of over-discharging and damaging your battery. OK....now this will be BLASPHENOUS... There is NOTHING that I read that says that 50% is the ideal discharge level... I did a KEY WORD Search "50". Thirty Seven (37) places in the text that "50" was used....Nothing stated to let them run down to 50%....and that was when you recharged. I also did a Google Search. Same deal on both initial use and also discharging... Assume they are (NEW) charged...use them. Top off, using a 3 Phase (like our inverters) charger is you want to. PERSONALLY... this is revolutionary. However, if you sort of back away.... In MH's, we typically or some do (not the Dynasty and up) start the Genny from the HOUSE. Magnum says..."don't go too far down on the AGS...as you need to have adequate storage or power to restart". OF COURSE. NOW....many might quibble with this...so here is the link to the new (2023) Trojan guideline.... https://assets.ctfassets.net/nh2mdhlonj7m/6lQJqxzrc3Yh5dg8HNHknR/85b0d103cb3f5f85f8ba2b7c3c3ab27b/2023005-Users-Guide-FLOODED-AES-AGM-GEL-WEB.pdf I'm including @Frank McElroy and asking that this be added to our files. That's it....will be interesting to hear what Trojan comes back with. NOW DON'T BE SURPRISED...In the past the tech support folks said when directly ASKED.... NEVER equalize FLA Trojans....unless they are so far gone....that will be the LAST resort. If you read the guideline....there are SPECIFIC tests and criteria....but not a BLAND... Don't EQUALIZE or DO EQUALIZE... The debate will rage.... This was taken out of page 189 in my Dynasty Owners manual: "...The working range of a deep cycle battery is between 50 and 100% state of charge (SOC). Deep cycle batteries should not be cycled below 50% state of charge. Discharging a deep cycle battery below 50% state of charge shortens the life of the battery. Deep cycle batteries use an amp hour rating which is usually calculated over a 20 hour discharge interval. For example: A deep cycle battery with a rated capacity of 100 Ahrs. is designed to release current at the rate of 5 Amps per hour. Multiply a 5 Amp load over a 20 hour discharge period equals the rated 100 Ahr. capacity. ..." At one time I had a chart showing number of discharge cycles based on depth of discharge that backed up the statement in my owners manual but I can't find it. Can you bring the discharge down to 20% - sure - but likely you'll need new batteries sooner. Or if your operating conditions justify it just change over to Lithium. Lithium prices are coming way down. Here is a link to the 2023 Trojan Users Manual in our files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 31 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said: This was taken out of page 189 in my Dynasty Owners manual: "...The working range of a deep cycle battery is between 50 and 100% state of charge (SOC). Deep cycle batteries should not be cycled below 50% state of charge. Discharging a deep cycle battery below 50% state of charge shortens the life of the battery. Deep cycle batteries use an amp hour rating which is usually calculated over a 20 hour discharge interval. For example: A deep cycle battery with a rated capacity of 100 Ahrs. is designed to release current at the rate of 5 Amps per hour. Multiply a 5 Amp load over a 20 hour discharge period equals the rated 100 Ahr. capacity. ..." At one time I had a chart showing number of discharge cycles based on depth of discharge that backed up the statement in my owners manual but I can't find it. Can you bring the discharge down to 20% - sure - but likely you'll need new batteries sooner. Or if your operating conditions justify it just change over to Lithium. Lithium prices are coming way down. Here is a link to the 2023 Trojan Users Manual in our files. TOUCHE!…. I had told DW that I had put out a piece of low hanging fruit and knew exactly WHO was going to pick it. Yes…your manual and probably mine, says 50%. BUT, as is the policy, always READ the manual(s) and follow the vendor’s advice….from the NEW 2023 Trojan manual, that I forwarded and you put in the files…Thanks…. Do not discharge your battery to more than 80% depth of discharge. This safety factor will eliminate the chance of over-discharging and damaging your battery. As I stated….there would be a howl…. I think that sometimes the folks rewrite the manuals and do updates….that might not be in accordance with what those of us that have posed questions and got guidance ….and that is contrary to what we were told. I do BELIEVE that Trojan used, generically, a 50% rule. But, the same tech supoort person said….WE DO NOT RECOMMEND EQUALIZATION. BUT…Trojan did qualify and post the conditions for such….and it was not a “regular PM”, but a OH WELL….WHADDA YOU GOT TO LOSE type of recommendation. To keep this civil…I think that the 50% rule makes sense. I also doubt that any or us will ever reach the max cycles….BUT… Trojan is cagey…NO printed life or recharge cycles….depends on “application” Battery University offers this… A deep-cycle battery delivers 100–200 cycles before a gradual decline begins. Replacement should occur when the capacity drops to 70 or 80 percent. NOW…in theory, a full timer, boondocking for say 6 months and recharging every day would only expect 6 months. MY POINT…one should be more concerned about short cycling or recharging and choose a point that is at least 50%. rather than some of the myths that have been stated here. The recovery voltage or the “after discharge and rest…no load” is the TRUE point…and if that is 50%….then, based on the accuracy of the Magnum equipment and the voltage monitoring, I think that 11.7/.8 UNDER LOAD…is the proper value. .when in theory….the AGS will start is more realistic NOW…if one rarely uses the AGS and does casual boondocking……it really doesn’t matter….. Unfortunately, due to lack of understanding, since our founders launched this saite…the old set it to 12.0 or 12.1 rule of thumb is now incorrect and it takes a short course in Battery 101, see the file, to properly understand. We totally agree….but there is NO HARD and FAST value to set. One has to discharge and then monitor the recovery voltage is the TRUE SOC…and one needs to set 0.1 VDC lower….this is also verified by Magnum… Thanks for getting the files updated…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96 EVO Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 23 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said: A deep-cycle battery delivers 100–200 cycles before a gradual decline begins. Replacement should occur when the capacity drops to 70 or 80 percent. Total guess! I'm betting nobody has ever counted the cycles they got out of their FLA batteries, and how deep they discharged them each cycle! I got 9.5yrs out of a bank of cheap Interstate 6V's, and could have kept running them. Rarely ran them below 12.0V (50%) resting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 1 minute ago, 96 EVO said: Total guess! I'm betting nobody has ever counted the cycles they got out of their FLA batteries, and how deep they discharged them each cycle! I got 9.5yrs out of a bank of cheap Interstate 6V's, and could have kept running them. Rarely ran them below 12.0V (50%) resting. No argument from me. Folks often get long life. The point… Exercising is good….for you and me and batteries. Frequency depends on the state of my 79 YO body…same here. If you RARELY exercise the batteries and and your total run downs or discharges are below 200…odds are..since you did it….you’re fine. Now…remember this. The rule, if you don’t dry camp and do the exercises say every 4 months….that is 3 X per year. You need to do it 3 cycles….that is 9 cycles per year…or 90 (10X 9) for the life of batteries. COOL. BUT, if you go out and boondock for several days….and insist on recharging at a higher SOC…then, you are doing needless recharges. Take your magnum… I’ll bet that if you discharged to 12.0….and monitored at the battery….UNDER LOAD…when the voltage on your DVM is 11.9 or fluctuating between 12.0 and 11.9….THEN … Wait…disconnect jumpers. Wait the prescribed 30 minutes…. The recovery voltage…or the discharged SOC will read around 12.1 to 12.2. That is what mine…and others who followed the protocols got. Now…you want the SOC, discharged, to be 12.0 or 50%. You have to discharge until the DVM reads 11.7/.8…. So, in order for you to set the AGS start…you have to drop 0.1 VDC….otherwise…it starts prematurely. AS WITH ALL THINGS…it depends. What works for you is fine. But if someone reads this and then sets the voltage too high and spends a lot of time boondocking and routinely starts charging at say 12.3….which some have said….THEY DO…for safety. Then all you are doing is shortening the life. Common sense and understanding exactly how the battery works and the needs and such….that is what is important. A BEN “rule of thumb” might not be applicable to another member… Rock on. Glad you exercise them… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96 EVO Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 12 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said: A BEN “rule of thumb” might not be applicable to another member… Rock on. Glad you exercise them… Absolutely! My coach spends the majority of it's life in my driveway, connected to 30A shore, batteries float charging. You want a real battery cycle life, you need to talk to fulltime boondockers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbeachy206 Posted May 22 Author Share Posted May 22 And here's this, also straight from the Trojan manual on page 23, and I quote, "Trojan’s deep-cycle flooded batteries take 50 - 100 cycles to achieve full, peak capacity." According to Battery University they begin to decline beyond 100 cycles. I'm sure this would all vary based on the depth of discharge with each cycle. Trojan's statement may be based on their recommended 80% discharge limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 Trojan or other battery companies absolutely count the cycles of their batteries and know how many cycles they will last under what conditions, statistically speaking. That's in their typical use which is forklifts, golf carts, and other regular uses. The tough part is estimating how long they'll last in an RV that might have careful maintenance, or might have zero maintenance. I didn't see anything recommending exercising batteries before putting into service, just a statement that they will not perform to full capacity at first. So I have no opinion of exercising before putting into service. I'll bet for the typical RV, and most other lead acid batteries also, storing discharged causes way more damage than the depth of discharge or number of cycles. The "Batteries should be fully charged after each use." was only mentioned once, almost in passing. Seems to me that should be commandment one, two and three. And that's one of the biggest advantages of Li, stores great at partial charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbeachy206 Posted May 22 Author Share Posted May 22 Sorry my bad. I had missed Tom's earlier post on this. Disregard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC2018 Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 I'm curious how adding ThermOil to my FLA batteries affects them longterm? I know what the ad says but does anyone have any real experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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