Inverters, House/Chassis Isolation, and other 12v technology

[waterskier_1]

4 hours ago, Bjohnsonmn said:

I am redesigning the electrical system in our 2000 Windsor 32PB, including how the 110v system works.

Our coach has the generator and shore power run to the central basement (interrior) where the transfer switch is. This is also where the inverter/charger is located to. The 110 wiring goes from the transfer switch to the main panel. Then, a smaller gauge wire runs from the main panel back to the power basement to the inverter, then back to the inverter 110 sub panel in the rear.

My plan is the run the transfer switch output to the Multip-plus II, then use the runs back to the 110 panels to power the pannels, removing the return romex from the mix. Ill also be taking the inverter breakers out of the main panel. The Multi-plus II has the ability to handle 50amp split phase in an impressive manner.

My challeng is that the wire from the transfer switch to the main panel is about 1'-2' too short. Given that it is 110/240, I believe Polaris connectors are the right way to extend these if I am unable to re-run the wire. This is an internal cavity with no access to the outside except a slide over panel in the passthrough.

Any experience with this?

Thanks!

Have you dived into the Victron MultiPlus II manual?  It is not quite as simple as your post seems to make it appear. First, I'm guessing that you are planning on running ALL power through the inverter (including 50-Amp, 240 AC Shore Power along with the dual in-phase output from your Generator (I don't think Windsor had 10KW generators).  What size Inverter are you planning on getting?  As far a I know, the MultiPlus comes only in a 3 KW version.  A 50-Amp 240 volt shore power connection is 12KW (which is the size of the generators in Signatures and optional on some others).  How do you plan on handling the remaining 9KW?  Yes, you can pass 50 Amps through each AC output of the MultiPlus, but AC out 2 is disabled when there is no AC input.  You'll need to make two runs of Romex (or other 3 + 1 conductor) cables - one for L1, L2 N, Ground for each AC output.  L1 output could potentially have 75 Amps (with Hybrid boost), while L2 likely need not carry more than 35 Amps.   You'll likely need to make sure that you wire the Main Power Panel correctly, and likely won't have a balanced load.  How will you ensure (beside the failsafe of the inverter itself) that you won't overload the inverter when there is lack of gen or shore power.  Also, have you considered the implications of the ground connections and pass thru when on shore power but internal when on inverter?  

I have looked into this for others, and when I start letting them know all the constraints they usually decided it's not worth the effort.  Some thought they would run their A/Cs off the inverter this way, but that is shaky.  

If you don't understand all these ramifications (there are others, but these are likely the hardest to understand and comply with) then you likely are not ready to start this modification.  I'm happy to further explain, but don't think there are many that will get anything from the discussion, so it would probably be better use of bandwidth to do it via email.  

You can get me at my yahoo email (waterskier_1) or gmail (waterskier1@gmail.com).  

  -Rick N.

 

[JDCrow]

12 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Have you dived into the Victron MultiPlus II manual?  It is not quite as simple as your post seems to make it appear. First, I'm guessing that you are planning on running ALL power through the inverter (including 50-Amp, 240 AC Shore Power along with the dual in-phase output from your Generator (I don't think Windsor had 10KW generators).  What size Inverter are you planning on getting?  As far a I know, the MultiPlus comes only in a 3 KW version.  A 50-Amp 240 volt shore power connection is 12KW (which is the size of the generators in Signatures and optional on some others).  How do you plan on handling the remaining 9KW?  Yes, you can pass 50 Amps through each AC output of the MultiPlus, but AC out 2 is disabled when there is no AC input.  You'll need to make two runs of Romex (or other 3 + 1 conductor) cables - one for L1, L2 N, Ground for each AC output.  L1 output could potentially have 75 Amps (with Hybrid boost), while L2 likely need not carry more than 35 Amps.   You'll likely need to make sure that you wire the Main Power Panel correctly, and likely won't have a balanced load.  How will you ensure (beside the failsafe of the inverter itself) that you won't overload the inverter when there is lack of gen or shore power.  Also, have you considered the implications of the ground connections and pass thru when on shore power but internal when on inverter?  

I have looked into this for others, and when I start letting them know all the constraints they usually decided it's not worth the effort.  Some thought they would run their A/Cs off the inverter this way, but that is shaky.  

If you don't understand all these ramifications (there are others, but these are likely the hardest to understand and comply with) then you likely are not ready to start this modification.  I'm happy to further explain, but don't think there are many that will get anything from the discussion, so it would probably be better use of bandwidth to do it via email.  

You can get me at my yahoo email (waterskier_1) or gmail (waterskier1@gmail.com).  

  -Rick N.

 

Run AC off inverter, good one LOL I mean, I guess you could run 1 for a few mins if you had to. 

[waterskier_1]

10 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

Run AC off inverter, good one LOL I mean, I guess you could run 1 for a few mins if you had to. 

I know some that are doing that.  But they they had 1000 Amp-Hr of Lithium batteries.  The problem that many don't understand is that if you take that energy out of the batteries, you have to put it back in.  Unless you are are just boondocking for a day, you won't have shore power so you'll have to run the generator, or have a ton of solar.  Given enough money, much can be done, but should it?

  -Rick N.

 

[Bjohnsonmn]

Hello Rick,

Yes, I have been reviewing the spcifications as well as the load limits of each part of the MP II. The plan is to connect the transfer switch to the AC in which is rated for the L1 and L2 50amp loads in. the AC2 out connection (non-inverted loads, ac's, main panel loads). The AC1 out connection will be the inverter supplied loads. The cable from the bay to the main panel is carrying all of the 50amp load presently, but will only carry the non-inverted loads going forward. there is an out and back run of 10-2 from the main panel, to the bay, back to the inverted loads panel. The Main to bay return will be disconnected on both ends as it will lo longer be necessary. the 10-2 inverted power return will be used to supply up to 30 amps of load (which is how it is wired and protected today)

There are a few versions of this unit. We are going with the 2x120v built for this application.

18 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

Run AC off inverter, good one LOL I mean, I guess you could run 1 for a few mins if you had to. 

There are some impressive builds with 1,200aH Lithium battery and 1200w solar setups that get several hours of real AC use in the wild. It takes other modifications to the AC's and other cable related upgrades as well.

We are not doing this. The inverter we have now does not support lithium batteries, thus the upgrade. I like several other features of the MP II 2x120 including moochdocking boost when you only have 30 amp service. We have a nice quiet diesel for our cooling needs.

[JDCrow]

12 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

I know some that are doing that.  But they they had 1000 Amp-Hr of Lithium batteries.  The problem that many don't understand is that if you take that energy out of the batteries, you have to put it back in.  Unless you are are just boondocking for a day, you won't have shore power so you'll have to run the generator, or have a ton of solar.  Given enough money, much can be done, but should it?

  -Rick N.

 

I just started a thread on this subject over in electrical. Was watching some YouTube people had invested a substantial about of money in 2 Victron inverters to split their power, then added 1200w solar. They were disappointed to get like 1 hr of tv a night. Their res fridge is eating their batteries. 
 

https://www.monacoers.org/topic/4062-solar-myth/#comment-36211

10 minutes ago, Bjohnsonmn said:

Hello Rick,

Yes, I have been reviewing the spcifications as well as the load limits of each part of the MP II. The plan is to connect the transfer switch to the AC in which is rated for the L1 and L2 50amp loads in. the AC2 out connection (non-inverted loads, ac's, main panel loads). The AC1 out connection will be the inverter supplied loads. The cable from the bay to the main panel is carrying all of the 50amp load presently, but will only carry the non-inverted loads going forward. there is an out and back run of 10-2 from the main panel, to the bay, back to the inverted loads panel. The Main to bay return will be disconnected on both ends as it will lo longer be necessary. the 10-2 inverted power return will be used to supply up to 30 amps of load (which is how it is wired and protected today)

There are a few versions of this unit. We are going with the 2x120v built for this application.

There are some impressive builds with 1,200aH Lithium battery and 1200w solar setups that get several hours of real AC use in the wild. It takes other modifications to the AC's and other cable related upgrades as well.

We are not doing this. The inverter we have now does not support lithium batteries, thus the upgrade. I like several other features of the MP II 2x120 including moochdocking boost when you only have 30 amp service. We have a nice quiet diesel for our cooling needs.

I don’t doubt some can get ac to run with 1200ah of battery bank (cha-Ching). But recharging as mentioned above can be problematic. What happens on a hot cloudy day?  That’s a whole other road as you and I are not headed in that direction.
 

I have the Multiplus 2 you are wanting to install. It’s been great. 
 

I’ve wired as you have described 

The only hiccup, if you want to run your roof ac while driving, I had to turn off tue dc/dc charger. I’m not an electrical engineer so cannot explain it, but the 2 power inputs are not on the same wave and the inverter freaks abs shuts off, won’t let Gen power pass through to protect itself I assume. 

Here’s the simple map I followed for install 

[Bjohnsonmn]

5 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

I just started a thread on this subject over in electrical. Was watching some YouTube people had invested a substantial about of money in 2 Victron inverters to split their power, then added 1200w solar. They were disappointed to get like 1 hr of tv a night. Their res fridge is eating their batteries. 
 

https://www.monacoers.org/topic/4062-solar-myth/#comment-36211

Yeah, not sure that was the right approach they took.

Our Windsor came with 400w of solar and wired for at least 30amps of push to the batteries... factory in 2000! (ready for 400w, but only 1-2 panels are original)

Solar is a boost for us to power simple 12v usage and reducw our need to run the generator, not eliminate it.

I'm thinking ill go the route of using the Polaris connectors in a box with strain relief to extend the main panel supply if needed. And as earlier stated, I won't tie in the ground in the box!

13 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

I just started a thread on this subject over in electrical. Was watching some YouTube people had invested a substantial about of money in 2 Victron inverters to split their power, then added 1200w solar. They were disappointed to get like 1 hr of tv a night. Their res fridge is eating their batteries. 
 

https://www.monacoers.org/topic/4062-solar-myth/#comment-36211

I don’t doubt some can get ac to run with 1200ah of battery bank (cha-Ching). But recharging as mentioned above can be problematic. What happens on a hot cloudy day?  That’s a whole other road as you and I are not headed in that direction.
 

I have the Multiplus 2 you are wanting to install. It’s been great. 
 

I’ve wired as you have described 

The only hiccup, if you want to run your roof ac while driving, I had to turn off tue dc/dc charger. I’m not an electrical engineer so cannot explain it, but the 2 power inputs are not on the same wave and the inverter freaks abs shuts off, won’t let Gen power pass through to protect itself I assume. 

Here’s the simple map I followed for install 

That is a REALLY odd symptom! Have you opened a support ticket? When you say DC to DC charger, do you mean a seperate Victron device?

I had been looking at that, but I'm looking into the Li-BIM that support the cranking amps for 30 seconds. It takes the place of the LI-415, the IRD/e, and the big boy solenoid and still retains the boost switch.

The quote feature of the forum may be making my replies look strange.

[waterskier_1]

1 hour ago, Bjohnsonmn said:

Hello Rick,

Yes, I have been reviewing the spcifications as well as the load limits of each part of the MP II. The plan is to connect the transfer switch to the AC in which is rated for the L1 and L2 50amp loads in. the AC2 out connection (non-inverted loads, ac's, main panel loads). The AC1 out connection will be the inverter supplied loads. The cable from the bay to the main panel is carrying all of the 50amp load presently, but will only carry the non-inverted loads going forward. there is an out and back run of 10-2 from the main panel, to the bay, back to the inverted loads panel. The Main to bay return will be disconnected on both ends as it will lo longer be necessary. the 10-2 inverted power return will be used to supply up to 30 amps of load (which is how it is wired and protected today)

There are a few versions of this unit. We are going with the 2x120v built for this application.

There are some impressive builds with 1,200aH Lithium battery and 1200w solar setups that get several hours of real AC use in the wild. It takes other modifications to the AC's and other cable related upgrades as well.

We are not doing this. The inverter we have now does not support lithium batteries, thus the upgrade. I like several other features of the MP II 2x120 including moochdocking boost when you only have 30 amp service. We have a nice quiet diesel for our cooling needs.

Brad, you are correct.  I thought since you were wiring everything through the inverter, you had other plans.  I'm guessing you are doing it this way to avoid running a new AWG 6 or maybe AWG 8 replacement run for the AWG 10 run currently in place.  Sorry for confusing the discussion.   I have not used the Polaris connectors.  

You said this MultiPlus doesn't support lithium batteries??  I believe it does.  I have the MultiPlus (not version 2) and have it has a program for LiFeOP4 but I'm not using it - I'm using custom settings to better fit the batteries I built.  

 

1 hour ago, JDCrow said:

I just started a thread on this subject over in electrical. Was watching some YouTube people had invested a substantial about of money in 2 Victron inverters to split their power, then added 1200w solar. They were disappointed to get like 1 hr of tv a night. Their res fridge is eating their batteries. 
 

https://www.monacoers.org/topic/4062-solar-myth/#comment-36211

I don’t doubt some can get ac to run with 1200ah of battery bank (cha-Ching). But recharging as mentioned above can be problematic. What happens on a hot cloudy day?  That’s a whole other road as you and I are not headed in that direction.
 

I have the Multiplus 2 you are wanting to install. It’s been great. 
 

I’ve wired as you have described 

The only hiccup, if you want to run your roof ac while driving, I had to turn off tue dc/dc charger. I’m not an electrical engineer so cannot explain it, but the 2 power inputs are not on the same wave and the inverter freaks abs shuts off, won’t let Gen power pass through to protect itself I assume. 

Here’s the simple map I followed for install 

I don't understand how the DC-DC charger should affect the shut down the inverter when the generator is running.  If properly configured, the inverter should only see a charging source, just like it would the SCC (Solar Charge Controller).  Does it work with solar and the generator?  I don't have the DC-DC charger on my system.  I strictly use solar or the inverter/charger to charge my house batteries.  

[Bjohnsonmn]

No worries! I am attempting to use the existing 120v wiring because getting a new run in would be quite the feet for now. If we renovate the cabinets in the rear, then perhaps.

My vintage 2005 RV2012 Xantrex doesn't support Li charging profiles. It works fine as is, but I want to go Lithium moving forward. I'll have several working components I'll be listing for sale once the upgrade is done!

12 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Brad, you are correct.  I thought since you were wiring everything through the inverter, you had other plans.  I'm guessing you are doing it this way to avoid running a new AWG 6 or maybe AWG 8 replacement run for the AWG 10 run currently in place.  Sorry for confusing the discussion.   I have not used the Polaris connectors.  

You said this MultiPlus doesn't support lithium batteries??  I believe it does.  I have the MultiPlus (not version 2) and have it has a program for LiFeOP4 but I'm not using it - I'm using custom settings to better fit the batteries I built.  

 

I don't understand how the DC-DC charger should affect the shut down the inverter when the generator is running.  If properly configured, the inverter should only see a charging source, just like it would the SCC (Solar Charge Controller).  Does it work with solar and the generator?  I don't have the DC-DC charger on my system.  I strictly use solar or the inverter/charger to charge my house batteries.  

 

[JDCrow]

19 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Brad, you are correct.  I thought since you were wiring everything through the inverter, you had other plans.  I'm guessing you are doing it this way to avoid running a new AWG 6 or maybe AWG 8 replacement run for the AWG 10 run currently in place.  Sorry for confusing the discussion.   I have not used the Polaris connectors.  

You said this MultiPlus doesn't support lithium batteries??  I believe it does.  I have the MultiPlus (not version 2) and have it has a program for LiFeOP4 but I'm not using it - I'm using custom settings to better fit the batteries I built.  

 

I don't understand how the DC-DC charger should affect the shut down the inverter when the generator is running.  If properly configured, the inverter should only see a charging source, just like it would the SCC (Solar Charge Controller).  Does it work with solar and the generator?  I don't have the DC-DC charger on my system.  I strictly use solar or the inverter/charger to charge my house batteries.  

I don’t have any solar currently. 

Again I don’t understand it completely. But driving the the coach, the DC/DC is operating, charging battery. Flip the Gen on, and now the inverter is also charging. The inverter throws a message and shuts off. Let me see if I can find what it did. 

[waterskier_1]

10 minutes ago, Bjohnsonmn said:

No worries! I am attempting to use the existing 120v wiring because getting a new run in would be quite the feet for now. If we renovate the cabinets in the rear, then perhaps.

My vintage 2005 RV2012 Xantrex doesn't support Li charging profiles. It works fine as is, but I want to go Lithium moving forward. I'll have several working components I'll be listing for sale once the upgrade is done!

 

I thought you had a Victron MultiPlus II?

 

[Bjohnsonmn]

1 minute ago, waterskier_1 said:

I thought you had a Victron MultiPlus II?

 

Will be installing it.

[waterskier_1]

7 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

I don’t have any solar currently. 

Again I don’t understand it completely. But driving the the coach, the DC/DC is operating, charging battery. Flip the Gen on, and now the inverter is also charging. The inverter throws a message and shuts off. Let me see if I can find what it did. 

I would check the voltage setting for both the DC-DC Charger and the inverter.  I have not had that problem with solar and generator, and I don't flip off solar when I run the generator.  Have you tried to decode the code it throws?

 

8 minutes ago, Bjohnsonmn said:

Will be installing it.

Ok.  I don't think you'll be sorry with Victron.  I have their MultiPlus, 3 MPPT Controllers, BMV-702 & ColorGX Display.  I'm happy with the way it all integrates and the colorGX connect to the internet and I can see everything through the Victron website anywhere in the world.

  -Rick N.

[JDCrow]

Ok it’s called a “ripple” and the inverter shut off once it was detected 

[waterskier_1]

17 hours ago, JDCrow said:

Ok it’s called a “ripple” and the inverter shut off once it was detected 

I looked it up, and the ripple must exceed 1.5 Volts RMS.  That is HUGE.  I don't know what DC-DC Charger you are using, but can't imagine that it would have enough ripple that combined with the Victron MultiPlus ripple, and stay in sync to yield 1.5 volts.  That is over 10% of the battery charging voltage.  The most common reasons (assuming that neither the DC-DC Charger or the MultiPlus are defective) are low or insufficient battery capacity for the load or bad connections / inadequate wiring between the chargers (either one) and the battery.  The battery is typically used as a huge capacitor to "smooth" out any ripple, but it must be big enough.  Some Digital Volt Meters (Digital Multi Meters) will allow you to read the AC voltage on a DC circuit.  If you have a capable one, you could check the ripple at the battery and at the inverter input and see if it's the same.  The best way to troubleshoot this would be with an Oscilloscope (O'Scope or somethimes just Scope).  That would easily show the ripple.  Another thing that plays into this is the frequency of the ripple.  The higher the frequency, the easier it is to filter.  I would expect the DC-DC Charger to be operating at 400 Hertz or higher.  On the other hand, since the inverter/charger already has AC it would operate at 60 Hertz.  I'd check connections and wire size too. 

 

17 hours ago, JDCrow said:

Ok it’s called a “ripple” and the inverter shut off once it was detected 

I just did some more "thinking" on this, and that error should only occur when the inverter/charger is in Inverter Mode.  It would be in that mode when traveling down the road with the generator OFF and the DC-DC Charger supplementing the battery supplying the inverter.  BUT, when you turn on the generator, the inverter/charger's internal transfer switch should switch from Inverter to Charger mode as soon as it senses AC at the input to the inverter/charger.  From that time on (until you turn off the generator) the Inverter should NOT be running, and the condition of the voltage on the batteries should be no concern.  Before, I didn't consider that the charger and inverter can NOT operate at the same time, so it can not be the inverter's charger that is causing the ripples.  But it is curious why the inverter senses the battery input.  It could be an artifact from operating on inverter and then switching to generator, but I can't really see that either.  I am perplexed.  It would be an interesting experiment to see if you started the generator first, then put the DC-DC Charger on line what would happen.  I'm not quite sure why you would want both chargers online at the same time, unless you are trying to rapidly charge the batteries.  Most DC-DC Chargers are in the 30 Amp range, but there are larger ones, and they can be paralleled to add more current, but you inverter/charge is likely over 100 Amps which should be enough except in the most unusual cases.

  -Rick N.

 

[JDCrow]

25 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

I looked it up, and the ripple must exceed 1.5 Volts RMS.  That is HUGE.  I don't know what DC-DC Charger you are using, but can't imagine that it would have enough ripple that combined with the Victron MultiPlus ripple, and stay in sync to yield 1.5 volts.  That is over 10% of the battery charging voltage.  The most common reasons (assuming that neither the DC-DC Charger or the MultiPlus are defective) are low or insufficient battery capacity for the load or bad connections / inadequate wiring between the chargers (either one) and the battery.  The battery is typically used as a huge capacitor to "smooth" out any ripple, but it must be big enough.  Some Digital Volt Meters (Digital Multi Meters) will allow you to read the AC voltage on a DC circuit.  If you have a capable one, you could check the ripple at the battery and at the inverter input and see if it's the same.  The best way to troubleshoot this would be with an Oscilloscope (O'Scope or somethimes just Scope).  That would easily show the ripple.  Another thing that plays into this is the frequency of the ripple.  The higher the frequency, the easier it is to filter.  I would expect the DC-DC Charger to be operating at 400 Hertz or higher.  On the other hand, since the inverter/charger already has AC it would operate at 60 Hertz.  I'd check connections and wire size too. 

 

I just did some more "thinking" on this, and that error should only occur when the inverter/charger is in Inverter Mode.  It would be in that mode when traveling down the road with the generator OFF and the DC-DC Charger supplementing the battery supplying the inverter.  BUT, when you turn on the generator, the inverter/charger's internal transfer switch should switch from Inverter to Charger mode as soon as it senses AC at the input to the inverter/charger.  From that time on (until you turn off the generator) the Inverter should NOT be running, and the condition of the voltage on the batteries should be no concern.  Before, I didn't consider that the charger and inverter can NOT operate at the same time, so it can not be the inverter's charger that is causing the ripples.  But it is curious why the inverter senses the battery input.  It could be an artifact from operating on inverter and then switching to generator, but I can't really see that either.  I am perplexed.  It would be an interesting experiment to see if you started the generator first, then put the DC-DC Charger on line what would happen.  I'm not quite sure why you would want both chargers online at the same time, unless you are trying to rapidly charge the batteries.  Most DC-DC Chargers are in the 30 Amp range, but there are larger ones, and they can be paralleled to add more current, but you inverter/charge is likely over 100 Amps which should be enough except in the most unusual cases.

  -Rick N.

 

I’m following along as best I can. Yes I have an Orion 30 amp DC/DC charger. 
 

Top it all off, the battery has its own BMS, so has a mind of its own as well. 
 
I’m definitely with you as I think it’s an overcharge situation. The Orion is easy to turn off with the Bluetooth app if we decided to run the gen while driving, though after seeing Andrew Steele video, not sure I will 

[Gary Cole]

6 hours ago, JDCrow said:

 The best way to troubleshoot this would be with an Oscilloscope 

This has been a very informative discussion particularly for those of us who know next to nothing about the RV specific systems.

Thought I would mention that for those who are into it as deep as JD is PC based 2 channel oscilloscopes with up to  25M Hz capability can be had for about $100.00. They are also capable of data logging which is a very useful feature.

Another $100.00 will get you 4 channels and 75M Hz. Not pro stats but good enough for most applications.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Gary Cole

[wamcneil]

On 3/9/2022 at 8:57 PM, Bjohnsonmn said:

Hello Rick,

Yes, I have been reviewing the spcifications as well as the load limits of each part of the MP II. The plan is to connect the transfer switch to the AC in which is rated for the L1 and L2 50amp loads in. the AC2 out connection (non-inverted loads, ac's, main panel loads). The AC1 out connection will be the inverter supplied loads. 

Ok, so that puts ALL of your big loads on one leg of the 50A power?  How many ACs do you have (15a each)?  And a water heater (12a?), and probably the battery charger too (10a)? All on the one leg of power ?

Incoming power may be 50a, but a 10kw generator will only handle 40a on each leg. One side of your generator will hardly be used. 
Side note… If I were doing it again and replacing the batteries and the inverter I’d go to 24v on the inverter battery bank and add a small 12v house battery for the lights and such  

Cheers

Walter

Edited March 11, 2022 by wamcneil

[Bjohnsonmn]

7 minutes ago, wamcneil said:

Ok, so that puts ALL of your big loads on one leg of the 50A power?  How many ACs do you have (15a each)?  And a water heater (12a?), and probably the battery charger too (10a)? All on the one leg of power ?

Incoming power may be 50a, but a 10kw generator will only handle 40a on each leg. 
Side note… If I were doing it again and replacing the batteries and the inverter I’d go to 24v on the inverter battery bank and add a small 12v house battery for the lights and such  

Cheers

Walter

No,

The Multiplus 2 2x120 has the ability to have an AC with L1 and L2 pass through as well as an AC with L1 and L2 pass through and inverted suppy. The wiring diagrams that Victron has on their site does a good job of explaining why this inverter is so different than other inverters out there.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Bjohnsonmn
Adding screen shot of schematic

[waterskier_1]

17 hours ago, JDCrow said:

I’m following along as best I can. Yes I have an Orion 30 amp DC/DC charger. 
 

Top it all off, the battery has its own BMS, so has a mind of its own as well. 
 
I’m definitely with you as I think it’s an overcharge situation. The Orion is easy to turn off with the Bluetooth app if we decided to run the gen while driving, though after seeing Andrew Steele video, not sure I will 

Do you have the single stage Orion or the Smart Programable 3-Stage Orion.  The spec's on the later show noise (ripple) at 2mV which is 0.002Volts.  That should not be setting off the MultiPlus.  I still would be interested in what happens if you start the generator with the Orion OFF, then turn the Orion ON.  What I'm getting at is it a problem with switching from Inverter (when the Orion is on and the generator is off) to Charger (when the generator comes online and AC is sensed to switch from inverter to charger).  I think the problem is in the switching, not is confusing some circuitry falsely yielding a Ripple Error and shutdown.  Since all components are Victron, have you addressed the problem to them?  

[JDCrow]

5 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Do you have the single stage Orion or the Smart Programable 3-Stage Orion.  The spec's on the later show noise (ripple) at 2mV which is 0.002Volts.  That should not be setting off the MultiPlus.  I still would be interested in what happens if you start the generator with the Orion OFF, then turn the Orion ON.  What I'm getting at is it a problem with switching from Inverter (when the Orion is on and the generator is off) to Charger (when the generator comes online and AC is sensed to switch from inverter to charger).  I think the problem is in the switching, not is confusing some circuitry falsely yielding a Ripple Error and shutdown.  Since all components are Victron, have you addressed the problem to them?  

Ill try it out for you, and report. 
I have this Orion

Victron Energy Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-Volt 30 amp 360-Watt DC-DC Charger, Isolated (Bluetooth)

[JDCrow]

8 hours ago, waterskier_1 said:

Do you have the single stage Orion or the Smart Programable 3-Stage Orion.  The spec's on the later show noise (ripple) at 2mV which is 0.002Volts.  That should not be setting off the MultiPlus.  I still would be interested in what happens if you start the generator with the Orion OFF, then turn the Orion ON.  What I'm getting at is it a problem with switching from Inverter (when the Orion is on and the generator is off) to Charger (when the generator comes online and AC is sensed to switch from inverter to charger).  I think the problem is in the switching, not is confusing some circuitry falsely yielding a Ripple Error and shutdown.  Since all components are Victron, have you addressed the problem to them?  

I forgot to mention the most scariest part of the whole ripple when I happens, it’s kills the Coach. 
 

Engine shuts down, no nothing. Just started coasting and glad I had air brakes. Went back and shut everything off, reset, and Coach would start again 

[Bjohnsonmn]

JD, that's wild. At that point, it is impacting the engine control unit and possibly causing other issues as well 

The DC-DC is just to charge the house from the alternator? I'm putting a Victron isolator that is specifically made to go between the two and deals with the Lithium on one side and acid on the other. It has the same 13.3+v protection that the BIRD gives to allow the alternator to spool up and not be over run and the boost switch. That may be a better way to go?

[JDCrow]

18 minutes ago, Bjohnsonmn said:

JD, that's wild. At that point, it is impacting the engine control unit and possibly causing other issues as well 

The DC-DC is just to charge the house from the alternator? I'm putting a Victron isolator that is specifically made to go between the two and deals with the Lithium on one side and acid on the other. It has the same 13.3+v protection that the BIRD gives to allow the alternator to spool up and not be over run and the boost switch. That may be a better way to go?

Yeah the DC/DC just takes alternator charge and outputs to the house lithium. 
 

I wanted to get away from the bird, and boost. I figured it was “simpler” this way. Can always us jumper cables. 
 

 

Ideally, I should never have to run the genset while driving. My AC pump is froze, it was hot so I tried it. I’ll Fix the AC pump, and the inverter can power the micro to Nuke something while driving or keep us from firing up the genset. 
 

For me it just learning. I don’t have the mindset as some for this, it’s just cool to kinda have a slight grasp of the concepts. 
 

One other note. I’m not an electrician as you may have guessed. But on the Multiplus 2 there is a small outlet for a 4 amp trickle charge to goto the chassis battery. With the inverter off, I went to hook run a wire to that, and got a spark. Now, I’m always under the impression that I shouldn’t be grounding out running the positive to positive? 

[waterskier_1]

On 3/9/2022 at 8:18 PM, Bjohnsonmn said:

Yeah, not sure that was the right approach they took.

Our Windsor came with 400w of solar and wired for at least 30amps of push to the batteries... factory in 2000! (ready for 400w, but only 1-2 panels are original)

Solar is a boost for us to power simple 12v usage and reducw our need to run the generator, not eliminate it.

I'm thinking ill go the route of using the Polaris connectors in a box with strain relief to extend the main panel supply if needed. And as earlier stated, I won't tie in the ground in the box!

That is a REALLY odd symptom! Have you opened a support ticket? When you say DC to DC charger, do you mean a seperate Victron device?

I had been looking at that, but I'm looking into the Li-BIM that support the cranking amps for 30 seconds. It takes the place of the LI-415, the IRD/e, and the big boy solenoid and still retains the boost switch.

The quote feature of the forum may be making my replies look strange.

Be aware that the Li-BIM is a backyard shade tree fix.  It only address the alternator overloading problem.  It doesn't have any charge profile (algorithm).  It's either full 14.4 volts from the alternator for 15 minutes, then off for 35 minutes, then back on at 14.4 volts for another 15 minutes and then back off for 35 minutes, over and over as you drive down the highway.  You are either charging your LiFePO4 at 14.4 or 0.0.  Neither is ideal, for a day's drive time.  That is why informed are going with DC-DC Chargers, which both limit the current draw from the alternator, but also have a smart charger built in to properly charge/maintain LiFePO4 batteries.

 -Rick N. 

[JDCrow]

3 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Be aware that the Li-BIM is a backyard shade tree fix.  It only address the alternator overloading problem.  It doesn't have any charge profile (algorithm).  It's either full 14.4 volts from the alternator for 15 minutes, then off for 35 minutes, then back on at 14.4 volts for another 15 minutes and then back off for 35 minutes, over and over as you drive down the highway.  You are either charging your LiFePO4 at 14.4 or 0.0.  Neither is ideal, for a day's drive time.  That is why informed are going with DC-DC Chargers, which both limit the current draw from the alternator, but also have a smart charger built in to properly charge/maintain LiFePO4 batteries.

 -Rick N. 

Yes, I figured a set of jumper cables would do in a pinch or a jump box if the chassis batteries were dead.