2003 Windsor generator slide control solenoids

[ready2retire59]

Dose anyone know the part number and where to get replacement solenoids that control the generator slide.  They are mounted on the pump and there are 2 of them.  The slide stopped working going "out" while it was halfway out.  Luckily it still worked going "in".  After spraying the contacts on the solenoids (that had corrosion on them), the gen slide worked normally.  So to prevent a future fail, I started taking the contacts apart to clean them.  Unfortunately one of the contact studs broke off and now the solenoid needs to be replaced.  I looked through the parts list and could not find anything.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.

Tony and Doreen Chiulli

'03 Windsor, '05 Ram

[jacwjames]

Could you provide a picture of what you looking for. 

I have a control board that is for my generator slide.  I don't have any solenoids on the pump itself, the motor is reversible which provides the extend retract function.  It is located in the front drivers side electrical bay and looks like this https://rvpartsexpress.com/product/kib-slide-out-control-board-kibsoc1020awd/

This is the same controller that is used on my two room slides.

[ready2retire59]

Thank you for the quick response.  The photos I have of the actual solenoids are hard to see.  I found a solenoid on line that looks very similar.  There are 2 of them that are strapped onto the motor with a large hose clamp.  One operates to extend the slide and the other operates to retract.  The wiring looks like a very heavy dc(12v) cable that is shared to, one of each, of the larger terminals.  The other larger terminals feed the motor wires.  The smaller contacts (the control) is probably fed by the switch in the outside under driver compartment and by the inside switch at drivers control panel.  If I can't come up with the OEM part numbers for the solenoids, I will try these solenoids as replacements.  Thank you again.

Tony and Doreen Chiulli

'03 Windsor, '05 Ram

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, ready2retire59 said:

Thank you for the quick response.  The photos I have of the actual solenoids are hard to see.  I found a solenoid on line that looks very similar.  There are 2 of them that are strapped onto the motor with a large hose clamp.  One operates to extend the slide and the other operates to retract.  The wiring looks like a very heavy dc(12v) cable that is shared to, one of each, of the larger terminals.  The other larger terminals feed the motor wires.  The smaller contacts (the control) is probably fed by the switch in the outside under driver compartment and by the inside switch at drivers control panel.  If I can't come up with the OEM part numbers for the solenoids, I will try these solenoids as replacements.  Thank you again.

Tony and Doreen Chiulli

'03 Windsor, '05 Ram

I’m having a bit of difficulty in visualizing and understanding.  Assuming this is a hydraulic system since the word “pump” was used.  My issue, and we have some experts here like @jacwjames….is this the 540109 unit? I don’t under the two simple solenoids.

if you have a spst 2 contact solenoid, then having two of them switching presumably the positive and negative, will not reverse a motor.  The Lippert systems have two styles.  One is a constant direction rotation.  That is a solenoid like your picture.  The concept is the motor starts to spin, in a fixed direction, so the solenoid provides power to the positive terminal.  The other terminal is Ground.  The valves do the reversing of the flow to change direction.  Many Windsor owners over the years have cited poor workmanship and Monaco plumbing errors.  Chards of Teflon tape would get into the system and mess up the valve body or block.  The fix was to disassemble the valve body and that corrected the problem…..but it would reoccur….a known issue.

Lippert makes a reversing pump motor.  That, with valves, controls the flow.  BUT the motor has to reverse.  They accomplished that by a 6 terminal solenoid.  It was a DPDT a solenoid.  You had plus and minus coming in on one side.  There was a center OFF a position or spring loaded center.  There were 2 leads going to the motor.  One side of solenoid, when engaged, sent positive down Line 1 and Negative down Line 2.  If the motor had to run the opposite way, then the OTHER aside of the solenoid provided Positive down Line 2 and Negative down line 1.  
 

Pictures and a closeup of the broken solenoid would be helpful.
 

 

[ready2retire59]

It is a hydraulic system.   I'll try to take some better pics tomorrow.  I'll also check the control wires, where they come from and their voltages when the switch is activated in either direction.  I'll try to see what motor and pump it is.  The motor has three wires going into it.  One to ground.  Each of the other 2 wires go to the activated side (large terminals) of each solenoid.  The large DC power wire (12V) is shared to each of the input side (large terminal) of each solenoid.  It seems like one solenoid is to extend and the other solenoid is to retract.  I'll check further tomorrow.  Again this whole circuit system is strapped to the motor with a large hose clamp.  Hopefully tomorrows pics will help explain all this.

Thanks you.

Tony and Doreen Chiulli

'03 Windsor, '05 Ram

[jacwjames]

My generator slide is Power Gear, there is a manual in the downloads section for it. 

You may have a different system.  Probably the easiest way to tell is look to see if you have a slide lock system, this an aluminum block mounted on the hydraulic cylinder with two hoses from the pump going to it.  The valve block looks like what is shown in attachment.

 

But I own a 2002 Windsor, Monaco could have changed the slide for the generator in that year, maybe someone else will chime in. 

Generator Slide Lock Valve.pdf

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

Monaco used Teflon tape on the fittings.  Pieces of the tape came loose and clogged to reversing valve.  Have fun.

[ready2retire59]

Here are some updates to the generator slide control.  Before I explain the pics, I'll tell what I found for the circuitry.  One of the solenoids, the one mounted on the side of the motor/pump, controls the slide extend.  The other solenoid, mounted on the top of the motor/pump, controls the slide retract.  A high power DC voltage cable is brought to share between each of the solenoids input contactor terminals (large studs).  The output contactor terminals (large studs) of the solenoids each go to one of the three wires going to the motor/pump; the side mounted solenoid (extend) goes to the blue wire, the top mounted solenoid (retract) goes to the green wire.  The third wire going to the motor/pump is tied directly to chassis ground.  The control wires (small studs) come from the manual switches located in the outside compartment under the drivers seat and at the driver's control panel.  The switch(s) brings low power 12V to the side mounted solenoid to control the slide extend or to the top mounted solenoid to control the slide retract.  The solenoids share a common negative wire for the other small control stud on each solenoid. 

 

I can't tell what the make of the motor/pump is.  The only label is on the top of unit and it is heavily worn.  I don't know if the wires going into the motor/pump is to forward or reverse the motor or if they control valves inside.  There are only 2 hoses coming from the motor/pump and there is no valve block as mentioned.

 

I've ordered replacement solenoids and they should be here tomorrow.  All the terminals are either cleaned or replaced and ready for the new solenoids.  I'll take more pics during and after installation.  When everything works I'll post the part numbers of the solenoids.

Thank you for all the input.  Hope this helps 

 

This picture shows the side mounted solenoid with the shared high power terminal already broke off (large terminal on left).  The large terminal on right shows blue wire going to the motor/pump.  One of the control wires is seen in the front (small stud).  Notice the hose clamp (strap) at the bottom of the solenoid on the motor/pump.

 

This shows again the side mounted solenoid. Follow the heavy wire to the top mounted solenoid and the heavier DC power line mounted on the same large stud of the top mounted solenoid.

 

 

This is another face on view of the side solenoid complete with broken stud , blue wire to motor, and control wires.  The left control wire is the black wire from the manual switch(s).  Upper left shows the top mounted solenoid with the heavy DC wires (large stud), Green wire (can't see the color) to the motor (large stud) and yellow control wire from manual switch(s).

 

 

Both solenoids are mounted on the large hose clamp and strapped to the motor.

[ready2retire59]

Well everything is back together and working properly.  The 1st picture shows the solenoids mounted onto the strap before mounting the assembly onto the motor.  The mountings on the solenoids are side mount brackets mounts instead of the original bottom mount brackets.  These solenoids have a higher amp rating than the bottom mounts and with the side mounts, it makes it easier to see and mount all the connections.  All the wires were long enough to reach their new positions.

The solenoids are available on Amazon at:

 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09FJLJKWQ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Thank you all for your input and if anyone else has this arrangement for the gen slide control, I hope these pictures and information help.

Tony and Doreen Chiulli

'03 Windsor, '05 Ram

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

14 hours ago, ready2retire59 said:

Well everything is back together and working properly.  The 1st picture shows the solenoids mounted onto the strap before mounting the assembly onto the motor.  The mountings on the solenoids are side mount brackets mounts instead of the original bottom mount brackets.  These solenoids have a higher amp rating than the bottom mounts and with the side mounts, it makes it easier to see and mount all the connections.  All the wires were long enough to reach their new positions.

The solenoids are available on Amazon at:

 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09FJLJKWQ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Thank you all for your input and if anyone else has this arrangement for the gen slide control, I hope these pictures and information help.

Tony and Doreen Chiulli

'03 Windsor, '05 Ram

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Certainly wonderful that the fix was easy.  As many say, MONACO did strange (perhaps unconventional and perplexing) things.  I don’t totally understand why there are two solenoids.  If it is reversing a motor, then you have to reverse the ground as well.

Did you find a print on this?  If so, please share?

Can you trace the two large cables for us.  All I can envision is TWO motors….OR A motor with TWO sets of windings…..and depending on which terminal you use, it runs in that direction.  Most of the hydraulic pump motors we encounter here are either a single direction…..and a single solenoid……OR a 6 terminal Single solenoid that reverses the polarity and that reverses the motor direction.

THAT is what is so mysterious about your circuit.  Rarely do we see a motor that has the reversing circuit inside.

Thanks in advance for helping us noodle this out and understand it…

[jacwjames]

6 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Certainly wonderful that the fix was easy.  As many say, MONACO did strange (perhaps unconventional and perplexing) things.  I don’t totally understand why there are two solenoids.  If it is reversing a motor, then you have to reverse the ground as well.

Did you find a print on this?  If so, please share?

Can you trace the two large cables for us.  All I can envision is TWO motors….OR A motor with TWO sets of windings…..and depending on which terminal you use, it runs in that direction.  Most of the hydraulic pump motors we encounter here are either a single direction…..and a single solenoid……OR a 6 terminal Single solenoid that reverses the polarity and that reverses the motor direction.

THAT is what is so mysterious about your circuit.  Rarely do we see a motor that has the reversing circuit inside.

Thanks in advance for helping us noodle this out and understand it…

X2 on this, make & model of the system would be useful to others in the future.

FWIW I've never seen a setup like that. 

[ready2retire59]

There are no prints that I have seen.  The only info on the motor is a label that is totally worn and can't be read.  Each wire going into the motor/pump activates the slide in a direction (blue to extend, green to retract plus third wire tied to hard chassis ground).  I can't tell if the motor is reversing or if there is a valve assembly inside.  

My guess is a motor that has the 2 winding as you said and they are using 2 solenoids that are selected by the control switch(s) in the compartment to select which winding will be activated.  I guess they are using the 2 solenoids instead of the single 6 terminal.

The good thing is that this was a relatively easy fix using off the shelf parts.  If the motor goes bad that will be a different story!

Thanks for all the input.

 Tony and Doreen Chiulli

'03 Windsor, '05 Ram

[ready2retire59]

The saga continues.  I realized that when the generator is extended there is a huge open cavity next to the motor/pump. In this cavity one can kneel on the ground and look directly onto the motor/pump.  So here are some more pictures.  The 1st pic is the label on top of the motor that is badly worn.  I can make out "(something) Division" on top and the number "639875" and "108AM25-FLB 3H1".

It also shows (almost) the 3 wires going into the motor blue, green and black ground and the shiny backs of the 2 new solenoids.

 

These other pics are not too different views of the backs of the solenoids and the wires that go into the motor blue, green and black ground wire.

The smaller green wire to the left of the motor's blue wire is the ground wire from the front door step motor and not part of the slide circuit.

 

 

The assembly is about 16 to18 inches long.

 

It looks like the wires are going into the motor and not the pump assembly so my guess; it is a reversing motor with the associated controlling solenoids.

These pics are to help if anyone recognizes this motor/pump and has more information about it.

Thank you.

Tony and Doreen Chiulli

'03 Windsor, '05 Ram

[jacwjames]

Hard to tell but the pump & reservoir look the same as mine but I don't have the two solenoids mounted on mine.  I have a control module that serves the same purpose.  

Now I'm wondering if someone got creative and replaced the control module with the two solenoids. 

Not saying that's bad as it appears to be working and much simpler then the my wiring.  But my control module does have safety features so that the generator slide can't be moved if the engine is running. 

[ready2retire59]

We've owned the MH since '05.  The first owner had it for about 9 months, then upgraded.  All the wiring seems to have been imbedded in the black spray foam that the factory used for insulation.  I can't see the dealer making these kinds of modifications in the short time that it was at his site.  I can't find any prints on this and when I bought the MH, I tried to buy a book of prints/schematics, but they (factory) said the only book available was for a 2004 Windsor.  I questioned how do you build a unit without prints.  No answer.  Now I can see how.  You design it as you go.  I did buy the book anyway, and sometimes it is helpful.  Don't get me wrong. We love our MH and it's been very good to us.  It's just that when things go wrong it's frustrating when you can't find documentation for your specific unit.  

I have the same module that you mentioned in the back side compartment next to the engine to control the house slides.  They will NOT operate when the engine is running.  I never checked if the gen slide will operate with the engine running.  Will do that tomorrow.  

I appreciate all of the help that you folks at Monacoers have provided over the years.

Thanks again  

Tony and Doreen Chiulli

'03 Windsor, '05 Ram

[jacwjames]

FWIW,

There is a post on IRV2 for a 2005 HR Scepter with a generator slide problem.  Looks like it may be the same as yours another responder provided the PN for the motor.

https://www.amazon.com/DB-Electrical-TRM0008-Mercury-17649A1/dp/B019GUJVEK

Here's the post https://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/2005-holiday-rambler-scepter-gen-slide-issue-598609.html#post6356827

[ready2retire59]

Thanks for the info on the post and the motor.  BTW, on my unit, there is no interlock to stop the motor from operating when the engine is running.

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, ready2retire59 said:

Thanks for the info on the post and the motor.  BTW, on my unit, there is no interlock to stop the motor from operating when the engine is running.

Tony,

I think that some information and pictures of the motor were requested.  Your system appears to be unique.  What we need is the following.

Do the two leads or output from the two solenoids go directly to the motor or to a control board?

Do you have a motor or slide control board.   The consensus is that you probably do for the main slides. However, the Genny slide may be wired directly to the motor.  The next generation was like that…..with a TWO wire motor.

The 3 wire motor in the link is a bit unusual.  However, folks have used existing components on boats and RV’s in the past.  IF you have the 3 wire motor and NO connection from the solenoids to the slide control board….as in the Amazon Link, that is a rare find.  The OEM Power Gear motors are priced new around $1400 and the Used’s ones are a third, or more, of that.

That is why it is important to have info and feedback and pictures.  If so  we can add to the parts list and save someone else a ton of money.  No rush…but please see if you can finish and wrap up this this topic for us.

Thanks,

 

[jacwjames]

Tom,

The link I posted was for an IRV2 thread started by a 2005 HR Scepter owner with a generator slide problem.  From his description it was the same system that Tony had.  As the thread progress a 2004 Monaco Windsor owner posted that he had a generator slide motor/pump system,  The Pump is the part number I posted.

So this generator slide appears to be on at least 2003/4 Windsors and 2005 Scepters and my guess probably more models. 

So the more information we can get and include into the parts list the better.  For one thing, it might be a more economic replacement then what it would cost to replace/repair mine.  I know Dr4Film aka Richard just had his Windsors system rebuild prior to him selling it earlier this year, it cost him a pretty penny.  

Plus I believe these pumps have internal pilot operated checks which prevent the slide from moving in/out without pressure being applied.   So there is no lock valve and block and the control is a simple switch vs what mine has which is the slide module.    In all a much simpler cheaper system. 

So the more information the better. 

[ready2retire59]

Tom and jacwjames (sorry I don't know your name),

Some of the original pics in this thread are the original setup of the motor and solenoids and are hard to make out.  The second set of pics are the new solenoids mounted on the strap that mounts them to the motor, the solenoids mounted on the motor and wired.  The third set of pics are a top down view of the rebuilt setup once I realized that I can use the genny cavity to see everything better.  

Two of the motor leads go directly to the output of the solenoids, blue wire to extend, green to retract.  The 3rd wire (black) goes directly to hard chassis ground.  The control wires for the solenoids come from the side panel (and drivers console inside) under the driver to provide the 12v to determine which solenoid is activated.  There is no connection to a control board like I have for the house slides.  I'll repost the pics here again to make it easier to follow.  I'm also posting a "hand" generated circuit of the system as I see it.

Original solenoids with broken large (heavy gauge wire) terminal.  I broke it trying to remove wire.

 

2 original solenoids

 

Blue wire from output of solenoid to motor (extend).  Yellow wire from output of solenoid to motor (retract).

Also control wires from switch(s) to smaller terminals of solenoids.

 

 

New solenoids mounted on strap before reassembly.  Notice different type of solenoids from originals.

Side mounting brackets instead of bottom mounted.

 

Installed and wired.  Notice heavy gauge wire on top large terminal daisy chained to the other solenoid's large terminal. 

The outputs of the solenoids go directly to the motor; Blue to extend, Green to retract.

 

 

 

 

Top view of motor, pump, reservoir, new solenoids (bottom sides) and wiring.  Notice blue green and black wires 

going into the motor.

 

 

Only 2 hoses coming from the pump to the ram.  No lock block.

 

 

 

 

 

This is my version of what the circuit looks like.

Hope this helps.

Tony and Doreen Chiulli

'03 Windsor, '05 Ram

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

10 hours ago, ready2retire59 said:

Tom and jacwjames (sorry I don't know your name),

Some of the original pics in this thread are the original setup of the motor and solenoids and are hard to make out.  The second set of pics are the new solenoids mounted on the strap that mounts them to the motor, the solenoids mounted on the motor and wired.  The third set of pics are a top down view of the rebuilt setup once I realized that I can use the genny cavity to see everything better.  

Two of the motor leads go directly to the output of the solenoids, blue wire to extend, green to retract.  The 3rd wire (black) goes directly to hard chassis ground.  The control wires for the solenoids come from the side panel (and drivers console inside) under the driver to provide the 12v to determine which solenoid is activated.  There is no connection to a control board like I have for the house slides.  I'll repost the pics here again to make it easier to follow.  I'm also posting a "hand" generated circuit of the system as I see it.

Original solenoids with broken large (heavy gauge wire) terminal.  I broke it trying to remove wire.

 

2 original solenoids

 

Blue wire from output of solenoid to motor (extend).  Yellow wire from output of solenoid to motor (retract).

Also control wires from switch(s) to smaller terminals of solenoids.

 

 

New solenoids mounted on strap before reassembly.  Notice different type of solenoids from originals.

Side mounting brackets instead of bottom mounted.

 

Installed and wired.  Notice heavy gauge wire on top large terminal daisy chained to the other solenoid's large terminal. 

The outputs of the solenoids go directly to the motor; Blue to extend, Green to retract.

 

 

 

 

Top view of motor, pump, reservoir, new solenoids (bottom sides) and wiring.  Notice blue green and black wires 

going into the motor.

 

 

Only 2 hoses coming from the pump to the ram.  No lock block.

 

 

 

 

 

This is my version of what the circuit looks like.

Hope this helps.

Tony and Doreen Chiulli

'03 Windsor, '05 Ram

 

 

Tony,

The pictures and your schematic as well as the previous information and some Googling for used parts and motors confirm what we thought. As always, things evolve with vendors as well as Monaco. 

You have an earlier version of the Power Gear system.  You also have a discontinued or maybe rarely produced motor.  Your motor is a three wire reversing motor.  It actually has, I believe, two sets of windings.  One winding runs it clockwise and the other runs it counter clockwise.  And it has a common ground.  Typically a lot of the hydraulic motors are two wire.  Basically a posited and a negative.  To reverse the rotation, you have to reverse the polariy.  That can NOT be accomplished with two simple SPST solenoids like you have.  The Lippert hydraulic pump motors that reverse have a larger solenoid with 6 lugs or current carrying contacts.  They are a  DPDT design with a center off.  The fact that we had not seen this early version and the circuitry was baffling and we did not know you had a 3 wire motor is what “threw us”.  

After all the back and forth, and you fixing it, we needed verification that it was a 3 wire motor.  The later years of the Power Gear system, which is functionally equivalent to your system used a simple 2 wire motor and has a “slide control” board to do the reversing.  Many of us pulled the info on the Power Gear systems and that showed the controller.  There was a little bit of older info out there on your system, but only a motor PN and no schematic.  A lot of googling chased down a very expensive $1300 or so motor as well as some equally high priced used ones.  The used one were 3 wire if you blew them up.  I don’t really know if the new motor is a Power Gear motor (maybe New Old Stock) or whether you can actually buy or order one from Power Gear. 

The motor is a low current draw FLA (Full Load Amps).  Therefore, in theory, a standard Bosch relay should suffice as they can handle 30 A.  But the start up or inductive load will exceed that for a brief period, but eventually the contacts will arc and pit.  That is why, I assume, the two large solenoids were used.

in the successor or later model of your system, I assume that the electronic controller will handle the heavy inductive load and that the reversing relays are rated.  Maybe there was an electrical design change or a different winding configuration that reduces the inductive load.

To conclude, you need to be aware of what you have.  @jacwjames found a great link to a cheaper motor that appears to have been used as a replacement for the ultra expensive Power Gear motor.  It is suggested that you review it and print out or file that information away.  Many of us look ahead and have a “back up” plan.  In your case, I believe it would be cheaper and more reliable to purchase the new 2 wire system which may or may not come with the control board, but install it and the control board and not go the used route….assuming the $80 motor did not fit or work”.  The new system only requires a heavy 12 VDC connection and your simple reversing switch will work.  Now that is how I see and understand it.

Thanks again for the follow up and verification.  I will pass the information that Jim found onto @Frank McElroy who maintains our parts list.

As long as the motor runs and you have a good 12 VDC connection and source, you should be good to go.  Just keep an eye on the connections.  If there is corrosion or looseness, then you will have a voltage drop and that will result in a high current draw which will harm and eventually destroy the motor.  I have a Lippert main slide system and the current draw (FLA) is much higher as it is moving a large, heavy slide.  The motor eventually burned up.  The same scenario can happen to you. I actually paid less for the entire hydraulic plug and play “power pack” ….which means it was a 4 fitting install and a plug in control…..than what a “new” Power Gear” motor is advertised for.  Sometimes uniqueness and a discontinued design can be costly….so be aware of what you have.

Thanks

[jacwjames]

Tom & Tony,

Thanks for the followup, hopefully this will help someone in the future.

The motor picture has the part number, when you do a search for it it comes up with a Parker hydraulic power unit  https://www.parker.com/literature/Hydraulic Pump Division/Oildyne 108 Series/02 - 108-165 Series Section 12-2015.pdf

 The 108 signifying a marine application which confirms the application based to the link of the motor I provided. 

This will at least give people options.  I found a couple 108 power units listed on Ebay, with similar configurations, not sure if they would work or not but nice to have potential options.  It appears the reservoir can have different volumes but since this unit only needs the differential in oil volume for cyilnder stem when extended it doesn't take a large tank.  It is also a light duty application for our rigs since they pump is not used that often.

Tom is correct in that I am always looking for options in regards to keeping my rig maintained.  Just knowing that a substitution for my system may exist is worthwhile.  Monaco made snowflakes, all seem to be a little different so it's good to have options.   This is compounded by age, our rigs are getting older and it's not a question of if something will fail but when!

Thanks for confirming all the info, we can probably now put this to bed.

[ready2retire59]

Tom and Jim,

Thanks again for all the help and information for a total replacement of the system or the Parker version of the motor/pump if it's ever needed in the future.

Tony

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, ready2retire59 said:

Tom and Jim,

Thanks again for all the help and information for a total replacement of the system or the Parker version of the motor/pump if it's ever needed in the future.

Tony

Frank has info.  Know he will update Parts List.  At least the mystery of 2 SPST solenoids is solved and the BOGO, thanks to Jim, is an alternative.

Case Closed!  😝