ELECTRICAL UPDATE NEEDED - 2009 (2008?) Camelot & Scepter - VERY IMPORTANT - READ

[Tom Cherry]

Many of you may or may not have followed the SAGA (and that fits) a problem that I had with my front Hydraulic (Lippert) slides.  If you have the large Printed Circuit Board (I do NOT have a photo of the entire board).  If you have a board that looks like this....then this pertains to you.  I learned a lot....and am still learning.  The issue was that the slide motor was overheating.  That lead to a lot of trouble shooting. 

The recent FIRE in the 09 Sig (memory) which is also a repeat of a past fire ended up with a discussion with Frank McElroy.  To make things clear, there does not, to the best of both of our recollections, ever have been a fire in the Camelots.  BUT....as we talked and I looked at the prints, I discovered ANOTHER Electrical GOOF that Monaco made.  I had posted a topic on how to revise or put the proper circuit breaker in the FRB as the existing 150 Amp is way too BIG.  But then, it hit me.  The RRB Fuse is also way to large.  So, that needs to be a downsized as well.  I plan to do mine.  I also plan to do some other looking to the Chassis Fusing...and will comment AFTER testing.

Bottom LINE.  Monaco goofed.  Now this is based on a LOT of study and also looking at prints that Frank and I have done over the years.  Monaco made changes and did not "TOTALLY THINK THROUGH" things....so here goes.

Look at the High Current Print that I attached.  I have replaced it in the 2009 Camelot Wiring Diagrams.  It NOW has TWO WARNING or UPDATES.  Lets start with the FRB.  In the LOWER Right Section (it is on the print) of the bay, there is 150 A Circuit Breaker (lever type....resettable). 

Look at the 2/0 cable that feeds the CB.  Follow it DOWN....then follow it back up to the RRB.  Monaco designed the Rear Run Buss like the Camelot "could....in the future" have a powered slide.  BUT they never did it.  The Lippert Front Slide pump motor is rated at 65 Amps.  But, Monaco put in a 150 A CB.  WAY TOO HIGH.  That was to provide power for TWO hydraulic systems.  That Circuit Breaker needs to be, PER LIPPERT, replaced with a 80 Amp one.  I have done mine.  That is common sense.  OK...Look at the note on the RRB....

If that 2/0 cable has a front CB of 80 Amps....then it is protected.  BUT, common sense or NEC or Standard Electrical Practices would require a MUCH LOWER fuse in the RRB.  I actually "BLEW" that fuse....but I had some really bad issues....

It is recommended that the rear Bussmann ANL 200 Amp Fuse be replaced.  I plan to use a 100 A...WHY..  If I start tripping the front 80 Amp, I will upgrade to a 100 A upfront.  You COULD use a 125 Amp back there.  BUT...there is NOTHING ELSE on this circuit.  So, the main fuse should be sized for the downstream load...

OK....along the lines of the Lippert.  A GOOD RECOMMENDED Preventative...and many have had the same failures...

Change OUT the Circuit Breaker.

Check all the downstream connections in the Generator area when the slide motor is.  There is a large Solenoid next to or maybe above the motor.  Just TIGHTEN.

BUT...on the MOTOR...take OFF both cables. There are LOCK NUTS behind or under them on the studs.  Tighten SNUGLY....Don't use a cheater bar...just a short ratchet or wrench.  If or when they get lose, then you have a HIGH resistance connection inside the motor.  That is what eventually killed my motor. This IS a known issue...and needs to be addressed.

OK....Frank and I also talked.  We THINK that Monaco also "OVER FUSED" the Chassis Connection.  If you follow from the 200 Amp fuse down to the board....there are NO OTHER CONNECTIONS.  WHY 200 Amp on the Chassis.  NO IDEA.  The CCM Dynasty only pulls in the 65 - 80 Amp range... BUT, before making a recommendation, I will do some testing.  Over protecting will lead to issues.  You will NOTE that the House Cable that runs to the SAME Board is a 60 Amp ANL fuse.  THAT does NOT COMPUTE.  The Chassis system, we THINK, will NOT draw that much current.  So, if there is NOT a heavy load...I will downsize mine...AFTER I put a Max Load test on it. 

That is it....We feel that it would prudent to read this and review....and then, if you understand...and agree....make the TWO changes.  Replace the 200 Amp ANL (Only use a BUSSMANN ANL - IGNITION PROOF) as that is what lasts longer and is the SAME OEM that Monaco used.  Replace the FRB CR with an 80 Amp resettable style.  Amazon sells the SAME brand as mine...

Hope this saves some headaches.  It will also make your unit "SAFER" as to electrical issues. 

12V High Current Dist TGC Rev 2..pdf

[Frank McElroy]

2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Many of you may or may not have followed the SAGA (and that fits) a problem that I had with my front Hydraulic (Lippert) slides.  If you have the large Printed Circuit Board (I do NOT have a photo of the entire board).  If you have a board that looks like this....then this pertains to you.  I learned a lot....and am still learning.  The issue was that the slide motor was overheating.  That lead to a lot of trouble shooting. 

The recent FIRE in the 09 Sig (memory) which is also a repeat of a past fire ended up with a discussion with Frank McElroy.  To make things clear, there does not, to the best of both of our recollections, ever have been a fire in the Camelots.  BUT....as we talked and I looked at the prints, I discovered ANOTHER Electrical GOOF that Monaco made.  I had posted a topic on how to revise or put the proper circuit breaker in the FRB as the existing 150 Amp is way too BIG.  But then, it hit me.  The RRB Fuse is also way to large.  So, that needs to be a downsized as well.  I plan to do mine.  I also plan to do some other looking to the Chassis Fusing...and will comment AFTER testing.

Bottom LINE.  Monaco goofed.  Now this is based on a LOT of study and also looking at prints that Frank and I have done over the years.  Monaco made changes and did not "TOTALLY THINK THROUGH" things....so here goes.

Look at the High Current Print that I attached.  I have replaced it in the 2009 Camelot Wiring Diagrams.  It NOW has TWO WARNING or UPDATES.  Lets start with the FRB.  In the LOWER Right Section (it is on the print) of the bay, there is 150 A Circuit Breaker (lever type....resettable). 

Look at the 2/0 cable that feeds the CB.  Follow it DOWN....then follow it back up to the RRB.  Monaco designed the Rear Run Buss like the Camelot "could....in the future" have a powered slide.  BUT they never did it.  The Lippert Front Slide pump motor is rated at 65 Amps.  But, Monaco put in a 150 A CB.  WAY TOO HIGH.  That was to provide power for TWO hydraulic systems.  That Circuit Breaker needs to be, PER LIPPERT, replaced with a 80 Amp one.  I have done mine.  That is common sense.  OK...Look at the note on the RRB....

If that 2/0 cable has a front CB of 80 Amps....then it is protected.  BUT, common sense or NEC or Standard Electrical Practices would require a MUCH LOWER fuse in the RRB.  I actually "BLEW" that fuse....but I had some really bad issues....

It is recommended that the rear Bussmann ANL 200 Amp Fuse be replaced.  I plan to use a 100 A...WHY..  If I start tripping the front 80 Amp, I will upgrade to a 100 A upfront.  You COULD use a 125 Amp back there.  BUT...there is NOTHING ELSE on this circuit.  So, the main fuse should be sized for the downstream load...

OK....along the lines of the Lippert.  A GOOD RECOMMENDED Preventative...and many have had the same failures...

Change OUT the Circuit Breaker.

Check all the downstream connections in the Generator area when the slide motor is.  There is a large Solenoid next to or maybe above the motor.  Just TIGHTEN.

BUT...on the MOTOR...take OFF both cables. There are LOCK NUTS behind or under them on the studs.  Tighten SNUGLY....Don't use a cheater bar...just a short ratchet or wrench.  If or when they get lose, then you have a HIGH resistance connection inside the motor.  That is what eventually killed my motor. This IS a known issue...and needs to be addressed.

OK....Frank and I also talked.  We THINK that Monaco also "OVER FUSED" the Chassis Connection.  If you follow from the 200 Amp fuse down to the board....there are NO OTHER CONNECTIONS.  WHY 200 Amp on the Chassis.  NO IDEA.  The CCM Dynasty only pulls in the 65 - 80 Amp range... BUT, before making a recommendation, I will do some testing.  Over protecting will lead to issues.  You will NOTE that the House Cable that runs to the SAME Board is a 60 Amp ANL fuse.  THAT does NOT COMPUTE.  The Chassis system, we THINK, will NOT draw that much current.  So, if there is NOT a heavy load...I will downsize mine...AFTER I put a Max Load test on it. 

That is it....We feel that it would prudent to read this and review....and then, if you understand...and agree....make the TWO changes.  Replace the 200 Amp ANL (Only use a BUSSMANN ANL - IGNITION PROOF) as that is what lasts longer and is the SAME OEM that Monaco used.  Replace the FRB CR with an 80 Amp resettable style.  Amazon sells the SAME brand as mine...

Hope this saves some headaches.  It will also make your unit "SAFER" as to electrical issues. 

12V High Current Dist TGC Rev 2..pdf 148.44 kB · 11 downloads

A revised schematic set is now in our files.  Thanks Tom.

 

[96 EVO]

I have the large 'Printed Circuit Board' in my front run bay, but no large breakers!

Maybe you should change your title to '09 models?

Every '08MY owner I've discussed this issue with has a 80A breaker mounted to the firewall above the hyd pump!

Edited April 30, 2023 by 96 EVO

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, 96 EVO said:

I have the large 'Printed Circuit Board' in my front run bay, but no large breakers!

Maybe you should change your title to '09 models?

Every '08MY owner I've discussed this issue with has a 80A breaker mounted to the firewall above the hyd pump!

I thought the 08 prints had that.  Did you mean BreakerS as in more than one,  if you look at my print, I only have one up there and don’t think I said multiple.  

Thanks for the update.  It seems like Monaco may have done some future planning.

OK….next question.  I ASSUME athat you have a dedicated cable running from the rear House Buss that is dedicated to the hydraulics?  Or did they steal power from the main PCB…but then that would have to be fused larger than 60 A.

SO….if they have a dedicated ANL fuse for the Hydraulics…..what is is the amperage?

Next up….what size is the Chassis Fuse that comes from the Chassis Buss rated at? Mine is 200A and that really is overkill.

If you have a digital copy of your prints, please send them to @Frank McElroy  he will add to files.  Interesting that Monaco may have planned, later on, to add the “optional hydraulics or Genny slide”.  I guess that the bankruptcy may have set that aside.

Are you up to date on the 2007?  Do THEY have the same board and hydraulics.  I have worked on some 06…maybe an 07 at ABQ Ballon festival and they have a totally different FRB.

Appreciate the info.

[96 EVO]

14 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

 

Are you up to date on the 2007?  Do THEY have the same board and hydraulics.  I have worked on some 06…maybe an 07 at ABQ Ballon festival and they have a totally different FRB.

Appreciate the info.

I'll have a look at the ANL fuses in the RRB tomorrow.

Fairly sure '07MY Camelot's / Scepters had elec motor driven front slides. Seem to recall Bill Willard telling me that years ago on IRV. He owned a '07 43' Camelot.

Edited April 30, 2023 by 96 EVO

[Tom Cherry]

11 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

I'll have a look at the ANL fuses in the RRB tomorrow.

Fairly sure '07MY Camelot's / Scepters had elec motor driven front slides. Seem to recall Bill Willard telling me that years ago on IRV. He owned a '07 43' Camelot.

Probably right.  I just downloaded the 07 Camelot prints.  TOTALLY DIFFERENT FRB.  The 06 & 07 were or appear to be identical.  A lot of the 07 prints were “06 Windsor & Camelot & Scepter” drawings.  I’ll fix title….

Thanks…let me know your Rear Buss’ are and such.  We all learn….

[96 EVO]

OK, in my RRB, I have a 200A Chassis Buss fuse

a 60A house Buss fuse

and a 200A hyd pump fuse.

[chip4872]

IF it helps the discussion, my 2007 Camelot PDQ has all electric (12V) slides.  No hydraulics.

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, chip4872 said:

IF it helps the discussion, my 2007 Camelot PDQ has all electric (12V) slides.  No hydraulics.

Thanks…..that confirms what I read on the print….

On 4/30/2023 at 1:16 PM, 96 EVO said:

OK, in my RRB, I have a 200A Chassis Buss fuse

a 60A house Buss fuse

and a 200A hyd pump fuse.

OK….thanks, your RRB is just like mine,  my call….my MH.  Getting rid of the 200 A Hydraulic fuse….it is a straight cable run and no other devices.  100 A going in per my note on the print.

If you, Ben, have a clamp on meter, how about, when convenient, starting the engine,  turn on the headlights, windshield wipers, Front HVAC, interior windshield fan(s)….then measure the amps.  Then measure the amps for each shade and the step cover….mine WAS a on the Chassis - Ignition….I moved to the House.

Curious about that load.  Frank has some measurements on a Dynasty and it is maybe 75….no where near 200A.  I recommend changing or derating that also.  In my case, I can power my hydraulic slide from that 200 A….so 80 would be the top.  BUT, since there is a slide lock out….I can’t run the engine,,,,so I will PROBABLY drop down to a 100A there also.  No sense in setting the current protection so high that a small dead short will not trip.

Thanks for the info…

[Happycarz]

I believe the two motors in the schematic was to address the Beaver Contessa. I thought they had a power generator slide. If they did have a powered generator slide and someone was to engage both switches at same time, could this be a fail safe?
 

My 08 Camelot is like Ben’s, having an 80a breaker on the firewall, not in the FRB.  Maybe Monaco was running out of stock then, so put in what they had.  In 2009 Monaco was having supply issues with venders not being paid in a timely fashion. This could be fact, or it could be rumor. It was relayed to me.

Being the correct or wrong fuse, could the 200 anl fuse in the RRB, going to the 80a front breaker, be there only to cover a catastrophic event like a coach crash. With that cable shorted to ground, the 200a fuse would be a goner in a heartbeat. I too have that 200a fuse.

 

[Tom Cherry]

5 hours ago, Happycarz said:

I believe the two motors in the schematic was to address the Beaver Contessa. I thought they had a power generator slide. If they did have a powered generator slide and someone was to engage both switches at same time, could this be a fail safe?
 

My 08 Camelot is like Ben’s, having an 80a breaker on the firewall, not in the FRB.  Maybe Monaco was running out of stock then, so put in what they had.  In 2009 Monaco was having supply issues with venders not being paid in a timely fashion. This could be fact, or it could be rumor. It was relayed to me.

Being the correct or wrong fuse, could the 200 anl fuse in the RRB, going to the 80a front breaker, be there only to cover a catastrophic event like a coach crash. With that cable shorted to ground, the 200a fuse would be a goner in a heartbeat. I too have that 200a fuse.

 

We have seen overfused issues before.  Regardless or AC or DC, OVERFUSING is not good.  If there was a dead short, for what ever reason, you have a very LARGE & LONG toaster element.  Dropping or reducing the Hydraulic 200 A to a more realistic amperage, 100 A, meets NEC & Common sense. Therefore the recommendation to reduce on the prints is appropriate.  Monaco was not infallible….ie…the 150 A CB in mine that burned up the motor.

This recommendation was discussed with Frank McElroy and we feel that it is the forum’s responsibility to correct issues that perhaps were oversights on Monaco’s part.

Thus the future load testing of the oversized Chassis feed.  NEC allows you to downgrade the POS protection but not upgrade it past the conductor size. 

[Happycarz]

67 doesn’t actually come from the headlight switch. With so many low beam issues due to scorched wires at the steering column, it was easier to state it that way to fix the issue immediately.  If 67 has power, the circuit through the relays and VIP, is a moot point. Poorly stated on my part.
 

If 67 doesn’t have power, the one would use the schematics to see the cause of such. Sorry for the confusion.