Salesman Switch - Cycle On/Off and Fantastic Fans raise/lower their vent lids?

[ziaptrn]

Hello all - 

Time to chase after a small remaining electrical gremlin.

Everything works as it should as far as I can tell when the 'salesman switch' is turned off and on. Power is terminated appropriately when turned off, and all resumes when turned back on. There are no apparent glitches or other problems. However...

Whenever I turn the power back on using the salesman switch, two of the lid-lift motors on the fantastic fans start, attempting to the raise/lower the covers over the fantastic fans. The fans in the hall bath/vanity area and the one in the water closet both start and raise or lower the lid, but the kitchen fan lid-lift motor does not activate. The fans themselves do not turn on to ventilate, just the lid open/close. The fans do work appropriately when turned on via switches and using the % cooling/thermostat setting and the select fan speed settings on the fan controls.

Does anyone have any clues/reason/understanding of why this may be the case? The fans work appropriately, but every time I power up via the salesman switch, the lid either raises or lowers, depending on its starting position open/close to move the lid opposite its starting position.

I await enlightenment from the hive mind :-)

John

[Dr4Film]

I use my fan in manual mode. Never have to worry about those pesky electrical gremlins.

[ziaptrn]

Hi - Yes, so do I. The fans are not turned on when this happens. Everything is off, and when I want to use them, I turn them on, etc.

The fan lid covers start to move when I power up the salesman switch from the off position, even when off and/or being operated manually.

I'm not sure if this helps....thanks for the response.

John

[Dr4Film]

You have to pull down on the knob that opens and closes the lid to remove it from auto mode. With the knob in the manual mode the lid will not raise and lower in the auto mode.

[ziaptrn]

AHHHH. Let me try that. I'm not sure if the knob(s) are down or up. I'm on it. I will report back!

John

Alas, No Joy.

I pulled the knob down from the up position on both fans. I cycled the salesman switch off then on, and the same two motors started to move the lids. Same as previously.

John

[Old Dog]

Pulling the fan knob down just disengages the motor from the gear box, does nothing to prevent the motor from starting.

I'd hate to think how many hours you might spend trying to track down your problem and whether it would be worth it.

Good luck.

[ziaptrn]

I'm not at all sure that it would be worth it. We are in total agreement.

That said - sometimes things that are complex to me are well-known by the group and easy. I did a lengthy search of the forum to see if anyone else had ever experienced the same thing, but couldn't find anything besides difficulties with the switch itself (which we aren't having). I have many times been astounded by the painfully obvious after posing a question or two!

Thanks for the response :-)

John

[Dr4Film]

Leave the fan switch in the off position then just use it in manual mode. All of the years I have owned Fantastic Fans, I have never used them in auto-mode. No gremlins for me.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Dr4Film

[ziaptrn]

Thanks for writing. The issue has nothing to do (apparently) with auto vs. manual. They are "off" for all intents and purposes, but still the lid tries to open/close. I absolutely agree that the 'auto' mode is wonky, and that is why I have always used them manually. I offered the explanation that the auto mode does work properly, even though I don't personally use the 'auto' mode, in case that made a difference to someone who knows far more than I do.

It may not be worth tracking down, but I can't help but think that something isn't exactly operating as it should.

John

[Dr4Film]

Maybe a call to the Technical Service Department at Dometic who now owns the Fantastic Fan brand will have some clues as to why they do what you are describing.

[Guest Ray Davis]

 John, I thought I would put my thinking cap on and figure this out for you.  Well, I've had to take my thinking cap off.  It all makes no sense to me.                                     I have decided that your coach is spooked.  If it were my coach, I would leave the salesman switch alone.

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, ziaptrn said:

Thanks for writing. The issue has nothing to do (apparently) with auto vs. manual. They are "off" for all intents and purposes, but still the lid tries to open/close. I absolutely agree that the 'auto' mode is wonky, and that is why I have always used them manually. I offered the explanation that the auto mode does work properly, even though I don't personally use the 'auto' mode, in case that made a difference to someone who knows far more than I do.

It may not be worth tracking down, but I can't help but think that something isn't exactly operating as it should.

John

First issue.  Powering up and down repeatedly from the salesman switch is not what I would do or recommend.  Your fan switches are controlled by the Intellitec multiplex system (called MPX). That is like repeatedly turning on and off a computer.  There are 5 output modules and a central or computer processing unit (CPU).  Most folk leave the salesman switch ON and rarely power down. Many have bypassed the Salesman switch solenoids due to contact arcing and failures.  You may have 2 separate solenoids on the Dynasty.  

One of our LEADING experts, a 2008 Dynasty owner, rarely uses the salesman switch and the only reason he keeps it is that if he has a MPX issue, he can turn off power to the CPU and wait a few minutes and then switch power back on and get a clean or hard reset or reboot.  Any device that is on a lighted keypad switch is controlled by a single circuit in a 10 circuit module and you have 5 or maybe more of them.  Some are not in production.  Keypads also have a circuit board and each keypad is programmed differently and you cannot take a 6 or 8 button keypad from a used motor home and just change the label strip and pop it in.  It has to be specifically programmed to work with the 6 or 8 circuits….which are scattered all over the five (10 circuit) modules.

This is a complex system…but fairly robust…unless abused or such.

There is a file in the Files Section on Intellitec MPX that every owner needs to read and understand.  Switching it on and off repeatedly may cause serious issue.

I would recommend that you leave the salesman switch ON and rarely use it. Some folks have pets or kids or “unknowing” adults that just say “gee, I don’t know which switch to push to make this happen….so I’ll just randomly push buttons”.

There are also 3 individual relays, hidden away, that control a fan.  One BOSCH relay per fan…or at least in my MPX system.  The intellitec MPX module sends a ON/OFF SIGNAL OR a toggle.  That is like your water pump.  That goes to the BOSCH relay.  Lippert or Fantastic Fan techs have little or know expertise in the MPX controlled circuits.  They are used to a mechanical ON/OFF switch.  

There are many things that can cause issues with the fans.  The two most common….a “sticking” lid.  The gasket on the roof needs to be cleaned with a mild cleaner like window cleaner or maybe hand soap, rinsed and wiped with a paper towel.  Then a thin coating of silicone plumbers grease (Lowes or a hardware store carries this).  Likewise, the mating surface of the plastic cover needs to be cleaned.  If the lid sticks, the fan gets funky.  Do this annually.  Often, I will “break” the seal at the first of the season by pulling down and manually opening the cover and then closing and re-engaging the motor drive.

The other culprit is the “cover opening micro or pin switch” which is on the roof.  If it get water or the contacts are bad, the dome or lid will open, but the fan motor circuit is not completer.  Try WD40 which displaces water and lubricates it and then a small shot of an ELECTRONIC contact cleaner…NOT a high powered Electrical cleaner.

The fan speed switch should be left ON..and only used to change speeds.  i upgraded mine.  You may have the rain sensor or plain vanilla.  If there is a little printed circuit board visible from the roof with the dome open, you have the auto.  Some had a teardrop or blue decal on the housing.  In order for the auto sensing circuit to work and close the vent, the switch needs to ON.  The thermostat control the on/off, but does not affect the opening or closing.

Suggest you read the manual or download the Fantastic Fan manual. Typically…FAN keypad switch OFF.  FAN Speed set to 2.  Thermostat set all the way to the blue (memory) side so the fan is running when it starts to open.  Push keypad switch.  Look at fan. The motor raises the cover…if it pauses or hesitates, gasket is dirty and needs lubing.  Quickly grab the knurled knob and turn it to assist the motor. About halfway up, the fan will start.  If it doesn’t, bad lid switch.  Try cleaning.  Then shutdown fan using keypad.  Half way down fan motor shuts off and lid closes.

It is that simple.  If the fan lid switch is making a circuit, and “things” don't work like I described, bad PCB.  All the above can be replaced.  Speed and thermostats are replaceable.  With fan off…rotate both the speed and thermostat button fully each way….maybe 3 or 4 times.

That’s it.  There is one main fuse and the Bosch relay.  Remember fan speed switch always on…use it to regulate speed.  Use the thermostat for temperature control.  Use the keypad for on and off.  If you turn off the fan speed switch, I recall that might control the auto down

23 minutes ago, Ray Davis said:

 John, I thought I would put my thinking cap on and figure this out for you.  Well, I've had to take my thinking cap off.  It all makes no sense to me.                                     I have decided that your coach is spooked.  If it were my coach, I would leave the salesman switch alone.

Exactly.  Not SPOOKED….just flirting with disaster as he has the full MPX and is just constantly turning off the entire MPX system needlessly and can do some expensive damge.  Consarned salesman switch should never have been put in MPX systems…..

[Guest Ray Davis]

9 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

flirting with disaster as he has the full MPX and is just constantly turning off the entire MPX system needlessly and can do some expensive damge.  Consarned salesman switch should never have been put in MPX systems…..

Amen,  I was not even thinking about MPX.   

John,  Heed Tom's warning,  your MPX is rather precarious nowadays

[ziaptrn]

Hi - 

Thanks again to all for their feedback. I'll make a stab at responding to all in one post.

I'm not repeatedly turning the salesman switch on and off. Rarely (if ever) is it used. The vast majority of the time the switch is left on and the rig plugged in at home on a dedicated 30amp circuit. I have used the switch in the very rare instances when I will leave the rig unattended for weeks without being connected to shore power. So I don't know how I gave the impression that I was abusing the MPX system by repeatedly turning it off and on. That is not the case.

The only time that I use the battery disconnect switch is if I am leaving the rig for an extended time and I know that it won't be plugged in and we are not traveling and/or not staying in it, etc. I think that maybe it has been off 3 times in the year that I have owned it. The other situation when I have turned it off is when I'm doing something with the electrical system and want to be sure that I have everything powered down as much as possible - in which case I turn off the chassis and house battery cutoffs as well. Perhaps this is overkill on my part, but it has only been done once when I was updating a 12V fixture.

I appreciate the feedback for care with powering the MPX system up and down. I did cycle the switch today once (off, then on) to test the "pulling the knob" on the fans to manual mode, which did not affect anything. Again, the vast majority (99%) of the time, the rig is left with shore power connected, driving, or again shore power connected with no touching or using the battery disconnect.

There is no problem with the lids opening or closing (blockage or sticking), and the pin switches are lubricated regularly and function as they should. The fans work fine when used as intended and there are no issues with fan speed, function, forward/reverse, etc. and I did try to communicate that in my posting.

The sole problem that I was curious about was why the lift motors would power up seemingly by themselves after using the battery disconnect switch, and the fans are OFF at the controls. It has done this every time I have stored the rig without power and then re-powered using the battery disconnect i.e. the lid-lift motors are activated without the fans being activated and the fans are all "OFF".

The issue is not a serious one, and I am always able to close or open the lids manually after they are triggered to move. Apparently, no one else has ever experienced the lift-motors activating with all fans turned off upon the restoration of power through the battery disconnect switch.

Thanks again - 

John

 

 

[Chargerman]

I had a similar issue. My two fans would turn on by themselves at any odd time. I was at M&M Electronics for another issue and I mentioned the fan issue to them. He said the first likely culprit was the fluorescent light/electronic ballasts messing with the Intellitec system. He suggested I get ride of the ballasts and swap out for LED’s. I did just that and installed strips of LEDs in each fixture at a cost of about $2 a fixture. The fans never acted up again

Edited July 6, 2023 by Chargerman

[Tom Cherry]

17 hours ago, Chargerman said:

I had a similar issue. My two fans would turn on by themselves at any odd time. I was at M&M Electronics for another issue and I mentioned the fan issue to them. He said the first likely culprit was the fluorescent light/electronic ballasts messing with the Intellitec system. He suggested I get ride of the ballasts and swap out for LED’s. I did just that and installed strips of LEDs in each fixture at a cost of about $2 a fixture. The fans never acted up again

That is M&M's "fix" and often works.  What they recommend, to REALLY test it out.  Look at the legend on the 5 MPX Modules.  Pull the FUSES for those circuits.  THEN run your test. Chris, the son(?) at M&M swears that even turning off the side switches (assuming you have them on each fluorescent fixture) will NOT eliminate the NOISE.  I don't profess to being a tech like them, but my days as an EE student tell me that is a stretch.  BUT, if you pull the fuses for each fluorescent fixture, there is absolutely NO power going to the lights....whether the Keypad is on or off.

Might try that.  I also couldn't figure out if the OP knew the operation parameters and the "How it works".  If I "dissed" him, that was not my intent.  We often assume too much and it has been more successful to talk or post the basics....as that also teaches others.

Let us KNOW what is found out...  IF IT STILL does it....then the output Module on the MPX that has the fans, assuming they are ALL on one module, may have an issue.

The "Troubleshooting" fix is to see if you have an identical...or exact duplicate.  Then you mark BOTH CAREFULLY.  Take a picture of each Module's DIP switches....then pull the harnesses and swap the modules....but you have to set the DIP's EXACTLY same.  In other words....the swapped (now controlling the Fluorescents) MUST have the same DIP setting as the one you stole to try out...and Vice Versa.  As long as you understand that and label or photograph....then it is simple.  BUT, if you leave them swapped...pull off the ALPHA sticker or label and remark so your Modules are NOT confused.  

[ziaptrn]

Thank you all again for the responses.

When powering up the battery disconnect after storage, none of the fluorescent bulbs are on. I turn everything in the rig off that can be turned off before shutting down, so on power-up when the fan lid motors start, the fluorescents are not on, nor are any other fixtures. Still, as noted, there are claims that even switched off at the fluorescent fixtures themselves, there is a possible conflicting signal (interference) generated.

I have spoken to and worked with Chris at M&M several times in the past with a different rig (SOB) and different issues. He was extremely helpful and clearly knowledgeable about the Multiplex system as well as most of the other 12v wiring throughout motorhomes. I have nothing but respect for M&M and appreciate their willingness to help the RV public.

The subject rig here does have several of the fluorescent OEM fixtures in place, with a few of them modified with LED strips as Chargerman described. I do intend to continue the updating to LEDs for the fluorescents. I have already swapped every other bulb in the rig (pucks, lamps, etc.) to LED bulbs and have been pleased with the results.

I did look again just to make sure that there are no on/off switches on the fans themselves, but all they have is a directional switch where one can reverse the air flow in or out. The other controls are the wall-mounted Fantastic Fan OEM controls. I may turn off all of the fluorescent fixtures at the switch on the fixtures themselves versus MPX and see if that makes any difference.

I will investigate the possible role that the multiplex circuitry may have including tracing the power source to the fans themselves.  It is interesting to me that the fans themselves do not turn on, ever, in the situation that I am investigating. Only the lid-lift 12v motors are activated. The small electric motors have no electronics as I understand it, so something is happening that initiates current flowing to the lift motors only. The fan operational switches do not illuminate and there are no other signs of anything else activating. As previously noted, if the fans controls on the fans themselves (the black knobs) are pulled down and are left in manual mode (not automatic), the gears on the motors will not be engaged. The lack of engagement means that the motors will never receive any load, including any amount necessary to provide the current draw which causes the motors to stop. Again, this is part of normal function, and when the lids over the fans reach the end of their stroke or if the handle is held firmly, the overload/stop sequence works properly. So my biggest concern is forgetting to check them when the rig battery disconnect is re-connected after storage, especially since I leave the fan controls (black knobs) in the 'manual' position i.e. disengaged.

I always try to report back my findings and outcomes when originating a thread with a new issue. I think that it is critical that not only do we return from where we have received, but also to share so that others may learn from both what works and what doesn't work to address a given issue. It is my belief that this sharing is how knowledge may benefit others while also being an integral component of creating new knowledge.

My apologies for the length and verbosity of many of my posts. Finding the proper balance between providing enough information without drowning the reader in words was a challenge in my doctoral work and especially in composing research work for professional publication.

Thanks again for the assistance.

John

 

 

[ziaptrn]

Hello all - 

I am posting a "solution" to the Fantastic Fan lift motors spontaneously operating whenever the salesman switch/12v shutoff was activated or de-activated.

I replaced the 3 remaining fluorescent fixtures in the rig last week; two in the ceiling in the bath area, and one over the side counter in the kitchen beneath the pantry cabinets. Instead of using the LED strip lights as replacements as I have done in the past, I followed a suggestion by Veraken and am happy to report great success with the use of the following (Thanks, Veraken!!)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09QY8ZHM3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

I never could find any wiring problems, voltage spikes, or other issues when testing power to the 12v lid open/close motors, but after removing the fluorescent fixtures along with their ballasts and replacing with LEDs, I no longer have the phantom Fantastic Fan lid open/close "feature."

Thanks to all who responded. I would like to note that Chris at M&M was correct in that the fluorescent ballasts must have been the problem. How the ballast 'surge' activated three different 12v DC motors remains a mystery to me, but the fluorescent removal and LED replacement did remedy the annoying behavior. I was able to test the master switch just now after powering the rig up from storage and zero problem with the lid motors activating.

John

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, ziaptrn said:

Hello all - 

I am posting a "solution" to the Fantastic Fan lift motors spontaneously operating whenever the salesman switch/12v shutoff was activated or de-activated.

I replaced the 3 remaining fluorescent fixtures in the rig last week; two in the ceiling in the bath area, and one over the side counter in the kitchen beneath the pantry cabinets. Instead of using the LED strip lights as replacements as I have done in the past, I followed a suggestion by Veraken and am happy to report great success with the use of the following (Thanks, Veraken!!)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09QY8ZHM3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

I never could find any wiring problems, voltage spikes, or other issues when testing power to the 12v lid open/close motors, but after removing the fluorescent fixtures along with their ballasts and replacing with LEDs, I no longer have the phantom Fantastic Fan lid open/close "feature."

Thanks to all who responded. I would like to note that Chris at M&M was correct in that the fluorescent ballasts must have been the problem. How the ballast 'surge' activated three different 12v DC motors remains a mystery to me, but the fluorescent removal and LED replacement did remedy the annoying behavior. I was able to test the master switch just now after powering the rig up from storage and zero problem with the lid motors activating.

John

My theory.  When the ballasts get bad, they draw more current.  We have had folks with bad ballasts that would overload, but not blow the 10 A fuse…which is on each of the 10 circuit Intellitec modules,.  The upstream CB, each has one, are not rated at 100A….lower, as expected for diversity.  Remember all the ON/OFF (not dimming) circuits are on RELAY OUTPUT modules. Monaco uses a relay to control the fans….and the motors are NOT on the Intellitec…just the ON/OFF toggle.  The pump typically is and there have been times Monaco would out in a 15A fuse as a “we fixed it” solution when the pump circuit “blew”.  But the ballast/tubes ARE on a 10 A fuse…or each bank or circuit is.

Thus…if you get a quick overload voltage for a fluorescent circuit, i think there is a “overload” on the Output Module.  That temporary spike is like shutting down the main power…so, when it goes out…microseconds…comes back ON…the Module resets….and then sends out a flash to the 3 fan relays.  They DON’T KNOW, as my dad would say…so, they open or close….or maybe start too.

OTHER possibilities….there is a HIGH RFI field in a defective ballast…and it is like a floating gremlin.  But….if ALL 3 of the fans react the same…there is a condition, maybe you can see on a scope with a Trace readout….and it is just the flicking of the Output module that is impacting the 3 FF relay driven or controlled circuits.  Your pump would probably see it…but keep on running.  Yes…as ballasts age….they cause issues, but my take if you rewired the FF circuit directly to the motor….so that it was NOT relay driven…no issues…maybe a real overload on the module….as that is why Monaco used the 3 relay board for the fans….

Glad you got it fixed…

[Dr4Film]

Those nasty florescent ballasts have cause more phantom electrical problems that I can count. SO far the four that are in our Dynasty have not been a problem. However, if I do end up with a gremlin the ballasts will be gone, and the bulbs will be replaced with warm LED bulbs all plug N play.

[Old Dog]

Had the same "gremlins" from a bad ballast. Would take out all the Intelletic in the back half of the coach. Convert all of them to LED tubes.