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HEADLIGHT Electrical Circuit issues - 2008 Monaco Camelot/Scpeter & UP also 2011 Diplomat/Endeavor


Happycarz

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MODERATOR EDIT

This subject or topic should have been a NEW TOPIC on the Headlight Circuits. A new topic was created and all posts have been moved.

END OF EDIT

Besides the over fusing of some circuits, Monaco tried running too many amps on an undersized circuit as well.

Case in point; my 08 Camelot, that I ordered in April 2007 for June factory delivery, had dim headlights. I found 10.9v at the headlights with 14.2v on the rest of the circuits, while engine running.

As this was a new wiring system for MY2008 Camelot, Monaco had not yet release the wiring schematics. It was over a year before I got a disk which had both MY’s 2008 & 2009 on it.

With no schematics at hand to fix my headlights, I called Monaco and they sent me just the headlight schematic. The print did not match my headlight circuit, verbatim. It was close but not accurate.

I then talked to the head EE, Ty Meier, at Monaco, explaining the situation. He pulled the master prints to compare to the individual headlight diagram to find the master and individual schematics were not in sync.  

The headlight circuit in MY 2008 Camelot ran the headlight circuit through the traces on the FRB PCB, causing the voltage drop. A simple relay circuit up front remedied that issue, with delivering full voltage to the headlights.

To be fair to him, he had just taken the job as head EE and hadn’t been involved in developing the wiring system.  

After bringing it to his attention, he made changes so by the time your coach was produced you didn’t have the same issue.

I fixed several MY 2008 Camelot’s and Scepter’s with the relay circuit back in the day, since I was familiar with the issue.

In summary, Monaco made many products with the customer doing the Beta testing.

We, as a group think, find the solutions and share them. It all works out.

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  • 2 months later...
On 5/2/2023 at 1:23 PM, Happycarz said:

Besides the over fusing of some circuits, Monaco tried running too many amps on an undersized circuit as well.

Case in point; my 08 Camelot, that I ordered in April 2007 for June factory delivery, had dim headlights. I found 10.9v at the headlights with 14.2v on the rest of the circuits, while engine running.

As this was a new wiring system for MY2008 Camelot, Monaco had not yet release the wiring schematics. It was over a year before I got a disk which had both MY’s 2008 & 2009 on it.

With no schematics at hand to fix my headlights, I called Monaco and they sent me just the headlight schematic. The print did not match my headlight circuit, verbatim. It was close but not accurate.

I then talked to the head EE, Ty Meier, at Monaco, explaining the situation. He pulled the master prints to compare to the individual headlight diagram to find the master and individual schematics were not in sync.  

The headlight circuit in MY 2008 Camelot ran the headlight circuit through the traces on the FRB PCB, causing the voltage drop. A simple relay circuit up front remedied that issue, with delivering full voltage to the headlights.

To be fair to him, he had just taken the job as head EE and hadn’t been involved in developing the wiring system.  

After bringing it to his attention, he made changes so by the time your coach was produced you didn’t have the same issue.

I fixed several MY 2008 Camelot’s and Scepter’s with the relay circuit back in the day, since I was familiar with the issue.

In summary, Monaco made many products with the customer doing the Beta testing.

We, as a group think, find the solutions and share them. It all works out.

I have an issue on my 2009, wondering if this thread may be part of my issue. When I turn my high beams on the headlight fuse blows.

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Teresa,

MODERATOR EDIT.  The posted dated 1/14/23 corrects an error in this post.  Refer to it for detailed information  END of EDIT.

To troubleshoot your high beam fuse blowing issue, we need to start along that circuit. So, let’s start at the steering column where the wire from  the headlight switch goes to the high/low beam selector switch.
 

The below is what I wrote helping another owner had no high beams. His was not blowing the fuse. But, this a good explanation of the headlight circuit.

So, find the three wires, 67, 68, and 69. You will have to remove the plastic shroud from around the lower steering column. Regardless of their condition, unplug 69 at the connector. Next replace the fuse and try the high beams.  Let us know the results. 
 

Look at the steering column to find where the wires enter from the dash. The connectors are half way down the column where the dash harness joins the column harness. Besides the turn signal wires there are three wires to the Hi/Low beam switch. These three wires are separate from the turn signal wire bundle, although along side it.

 

Identify wires #67, #68, & #69 coming from the dash and going up the column. 

 

#67 is the power from the headlight switch,

Wire #67 is the power coming from terminal 30 of the RELAY HEAD LT. There is a 20 Amp Fuse (F24) that has the incoming voltage. When the VIP Controller sends out a 12 VDC signal to Terminal 86 of the Headlight Relay and Terminal 85 is properly grounded, then the relay closes. The Power from the Fuse (Terminal 87) and it goes out on Terminal 30 to the internal HI/LOW Dimming Switch inside the steering Column.

That switch sends power via Wire #68 is for Low beam and #69 is for High beam.

See if any are wires/connectors are discolored. There tends to be high resistance/heat, burning these connectors. I have found this to be a problem on some coaches. Replace the burned connector with a new one, or just use a butt connector.

 

With vehicles with VIP Smart Wheel, which yours has, the headlight circuit goes through the VIP control box: When the headlight switch is pulled, the power goes to the VIP control box at connector P12, Pin #1. The headlight 12v exits the VIP control box at connector P12, Pin #2. That wire goes to the steering column as #67 then up to the High/Low beam switch. Depending on the low or high beam selection, #67 connects to either #68 or #69.

 

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Edited by Tom Cherry
Correct error on wire source and functions
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On 7/29/2023 at 7:38 PM, mandtny said:

I have an issue on my 2009, wondering if this thread may be part of my issue. When I turn my high beams on the headlight fuse blows.

My 2009 Camelot Headlights are the PITS.  I would never drive at night.  The Headlights are a "illegitimate child" contraption.  You can NOT install an LED replacement as the entire headlight assembly has only ONE harness.  You have to pull out the headlight from the body.  Then go inside it and replace the bulbs.  There is NOT, to the best of my knowledge...and I have upgraded several vehicles to LED, ROOM for the bulbs and such.  PITY...

NOW...as to the FUSE blowing.  Harry ( @Happycarz ) seems to be very knowledgeable.  I will defer to his help for you.  BUT, as a resource....here is the 2009 Camelot Headlight and Taillight Print.  If I read it correctly, I should have (never checked as Headlight intensity is not a problem if you don't drive at night...LOL) checked...but it DOES have the independent RELAY that I think Harry installed. 

Next up...a WORD of caution.  SOME enterprising folks have "TINKERED"....and had a WORLD of trouble.  There is a SPARE relay socket on the Vehicle PCB (in the Front Bay....I THINK.  There is also a DRL (Daylight Running Lights) Socket.  UNLESS the MH was FACTORY ASSEMBLED for the Canadian market...that DRL relay socket must NOT have a Relay in it.  One fellow 2009 Camelot jockey got to "fiddling".  He was swapping relays and got a little befuddled and also wanted Full Time DRL.  SIMPLE....pop in the RELAY.  I can't remember all the consequences...except to say, he wrote a thesis...and then finally figured out...NO RELAY IN DRL SOCKET....

SO, I would look FIRST on the PCB board. Then make sure that NO ONE had put in a Relay.  THEN....start my trouble shooting.  I would pull a relay (or get a spare) and change OUT the Headlight relay.  NO JOY...then time to start checking the print and following the circuit.  THE OTHER thing that I remember from another astute 09 Camelot jockey....many times folks say...problems....got bad whatever.  In MOST cases, the culprit in the plug(s) from the Smart Wheel and the Dimmer switch just "getting loose".  Pull off the big cover under the steering column.  NOW.....DO THE PM.  There is a grease fitting there for the steering column....rarely does it get greased.  PITA...but I let my OTR shop do all but I grease it every 2 -3 years.  You must use a hand grease gun....and rotate the steering wheel to access the fitting...but once you have off the cover...it is easy.

OK...then you can start to check the plugs and wiring...

OK..plowing the same ground again...since the original topic was for an electrical power issue but morphed into HEADLIGHTS....read it again....VERY IMPORTANT....I pulled our LINK for the 2009 Camelot Prints.  Many have these...some don't.  I included an INDEX so you can look up the "area" and then scroll down to the print.....the LAST time I revised the FILE....  BUT READ ON...there are TWO MAJOR issues that need to be corrected.  We LEARN by fixing.  Explanation at the end.  MIGHT impact the 2008's, but I THINK they were correct and Monaco GOOFED...in 2009....

OK...here are the ISSUES.  

The Front Hydraulic system is OVER PROTECTED...as in Monaco was planning to ADD in a Generator Hydraulic slide...so they "Planned" but executed poorly.  There is a 150 Amp Resettable Circuit Breaker in the lower left or so section.  That was a MISTAKE.  Lippert and I went through this and they said...NOT GOOD.  That should be REPLACED.  The Hydraulic pump motor for the slides is rated at 65 Amps FULL LOAD.  Should have been a 80 Amp CB.  I THINK the 2008;s have the correct one.  THAT NEEDS to be changed.  I had an issue and eventually burned up the motor and replaced the entire unit and put in the correct one.  Amazon has these and they are identical (same brand).  CHANGE IT OUT... LOOK at the HIGH CURRENT PRINT (also below for info) See BOTH NOTES that I added....

The SO...fix the CB and then address the REAR fuse.  Since Monaco MEANT to add the higher load with TWO motors (never run, probably, at the same time), they ALSO overfused the line going up front from the HOUSE bank to power the Hydraulic.  I plan to downrate that fuse when I get it out of storage.  Make sure you ORDER a GENUINE BUSSMANN Ignition Proof (spark protected) fuse....that is what Monaco used  The common ANL fuses, even the ignition protected, will "blow" faster.  UNTIL I finally found the motor issue, I had to replace that fuse a time or two...so I KNOW...

That's it....read the PM on the hydraulic motor below... 

NOW...a PM Tip.  Check the electrical connections (nuts) on the hydraulic pump.  Tow on the Solenoid (which is fed from the over protected 150).  THEN on the MOTOR...  PULL OFF THE NUTS.  Pull off the cables.  GENTLY tighten the inner nuts.  The terminal is like a carriage bolt.  It makes the connections to the windings.  It will loosen (Lippert was a little shoddy or their motor supplier in the TORQUE).  Snug up gently but firmly using a short combo or box wrench...NO PRY BARS...LOL).  Thus you avoid a high resistance connection inside the motor.  On the NEW unit, I checked and probably got a 1/8 or so turn on each to tighten.  There is

Headlights and Fog lights.pdf 12V High Current Dist TGC Rev 2..pdf

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  • 3 months later...
  • 1 month later...

Howdy folks.  Okay I’m just now getting back to my no headlight issue.  A number of you are alot more savvy to the wiring on these Monaco coaches.  So to refresh I have a 2011 Diplomat 43PD5. I have verified everything connected to smart wheel except headlights work as they are supposed to. 
I have 13.3 volts going to hl switch. Same voltage leaves switch on hl wire to the VIP controller at connector J1-6. It leaves the controller at connector J2-6. I have no power at pin-wire #67 at base of steering column.  
What am I not seeing or following??

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OK....  The pin numbers are GREAT that were provided.  BUT, you MUST be able to put the PIN NUMBERS on the schematic.  If you don't have a SCHEMATIC, then the 08/09 Camelot is the BEST WE CAN DO.

You have to also read the labels on the wire....  NOW THIS IS CUMBERSOME....without a doubt.

You need to print out the print below that I posted way back when.

Then you start to READ the labels as there is NO connection and Pin Numbers on the drawing.  This is, as far as I can see, the ONLY PRINT that has the "system logic", 

I have READ and REREAD what Harry ( @Happycarz ) posted.  I am having a little difficulty in following the logic and it is SUPPOSED to be the same as the PRINT I posted.... 

Look at the steering column to find where the wires enter from the dash. The connectors are half way down the column where the dash harness joins the column harness. Besides the turn signal wires there are three wires to the Hi/Low beam switch. These three wires are separate from the turn signal wire bundle, although along side it.

Identify wires #67, #68, & #69 coming from the dash and going up the column. 

#67 is the power from the headlight switch, #68 is for Low beam and #69 is for High beam. See if any are wires/connectors are discolored. There tends to be high resistance/heat, burning these connectors. I have found this to be a problem on some coaches. Replace the burned connector with a new one, or just use a butt connector.

NOW....if you look at the print...It, to me is THIS WAY....

Wire 67 is RLHL 30 Headlight LO/HI.  That is the output of the Headlight Relay...(look at the Firewall Harness). That relay gets its "OPEN or CLOSE" signal from the VIP Smart Wheel Controller.  THEN...once it gets turned on....it picks up power from terminal 87 of the Headlight Relay which is a 20 amp fuse (F24 on the Camelots. So, bottom line....when the VIP controller sends 12 VDC to the Headlight Relay, then the relay sends power on the RLH30 Headlight Lo/Hi terminal to the HEADLIGHT DIMMER SWITCH...

It is NOT the signal from the Headlight Switch.  When you have NO POWER on wire 67, then there is one of several things WRONG...and you have to swap out the relay or do some VOM Trouble Shooting.

Turn ON the Headlights...  Terminal 86 SHOULD have power.  Terminal 85 should be GROUND.  If you have NO power on the VIP HEADLIGHTS wire....or Terminal 86, then there is an issue in the VIP controller.  

You ALSO have to have 12 VDC coming to terminal 87 with ic the CH BAT HEADLIGHTS wire...  No power there...you have a FUSE blown...maybe Fuse 24....NO IDEA...but you should be able to find the the fuse from the decal or label in the Front Run Bay...

OK....you have the control signal (voltage to Terminal 86 and Ground to Terminal 87...  Did the RELAY CLICK or energize.... steal a relay and try one that works. There is SUPPOSED to be a spare in the rack...  IF IT CLICKED....

THEN, you should have power coming out of Terminal 30....  and THAT goes to the High/Low Headlight switch.  That is WHY all of these wires are in the same bundle. Wire 67 is going INTO the High/Low switch...NO POWER?  Then start chasing back...

Color code or mark up the print...  Wire 68 COMES OUT of the HI?LO and that is the LOW beam that goes to the Headlights.  Conversely, Wire 69 is the HIGH Beam....

That's it... 

Start troubleshooting....

Headlights and Fog lights.pdf

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Howdy Tom and HappyCarz

Gentlemen- Thanks for all your help with diagrams, pictures and explanations. I have figured out my problem with no headlights. Tom you are correct there is-was a spare relay along with a few spare fuses on the bottom of my FRB circuit board.  I had used the spare relay as my test relay. Guess what it’s NO GOOD!!

 I borrowed a relay from a different location because I was having doubts and wala headlights are working. 
 

Now I know I have read discussions on adding relay to the low beam circuit to eliminate so load issues plus using a different brand of relay but can’t find those articles. Can you steer me again. 
Thanks again 

Steve

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18 minutes ago, Steve2011 said:

Howdy Tom and HappyCarz

Gentlemen- Thanks for all your help with diagrams, pictures and explanations. I have figured out my problem with no headlights. Tom you are correct there is-was a spare relay along with a few spare fuses on the bottom of my FRB circuit board.  I had used the spare relay as my test relay. Guess what it’s NO GOOD!!

 I borrowed a relay from a different location because I was having doubts and wala headlights are working. 
 

Now I know I have read discussions on adding relay to the low beam circuit to eliminate so load issues plus using a different brand of relay but can’t find those articles. Can you steer me again. 
Thanks again 

Steve

OK….many ways to do this.  MINE might not be the best…but it would work….and if it didn’t then “modifing” it would be simple.

FIRST….follow #68 and #69 wires.  Go to the firewall side or maybe under the front.  I don’t know this for a fact, but MY suspicion would be that on the road side, they come “down or in”.  Then they are split and one goes to the Drivers side….and continues on or maybe is split at a harness.  You need to clearly identify the LOW and HIGH.  Terminate BEFORE they split.  Use a Bosch Relay and copy the circuit.  SO you need two relays…circuits are identical…so, I’ll do it once…

#68 wire (Low)

Relays….Bosch 87/87A 30 AMP…Amazon has REAL Bosch.  NOW…next is the “tricky” part.  You need a 5 Pin socket…but with #12 AWG wires….Amazon has this….

TRUE MODS 1 Pack 5-Pin 12V Bosch Style Waterproof Relay Kit [Harness Socket] [12 AWG Hot Wires] [SPDT] [30/40 Amp] 12 Volt Automotive Marine Relays for Boats Auto Fan Cars

GET the above or EQUIVALENT...DO NOT USE #14.  OK….pin outs...  SEE the HEADLIGHT RELAY in the schematic 

Pin 86 - Wire #68 - Power to low beam from HI/LO Switch. This is ONE side of the Relay Coil

Pin 85 - GROUND - Other side of Coil.  Can be reversed....polarity is NOT an issue

Pin 87 - COULD Use Headlight Relay Pin 87 Wire... BUT, that involves cutting and splicing.  I would use a 20 Amp Inline Fuse Holder (#12 AWG leads) and run it from the Chassis Battery Stud on the FRB PCB.  The Chassis is the BOTTTOM one of the two at the top.  Use a Large Ring Terminal and get a nut that fits. It is SAE and NOT metric.  Picture below is a "thief" HOT lead that I ran many years ago to power the Step Cover at all times...  The power for the step cover WAS on the Switched Chassis (Ignition) BATT circuit...so I just rewired the input to the PCB... NOW you have a FUSED good Source of CHASSIS (remember MINE is on the HOUSE...Chassis is below it). BUT, test....turn OFF the CHASSIS Battery Disconnect Switch.  THAT should KILL the power to the BOTTOM STUD...

You can probably take a piece of wire (think the wire on a surveyor's flag and poke a hole on the left side or wherever the big harness(es) come out and they used the Expanded Foam to seal. I do that all the time.  Use a drop or a dab of Black Windshield RTV Sealer to plug the area around the wire on both sides...it waterproofs it....

Pin 30 - GOES to the LOW BEAMS or the DOWNSTREAM point of where you CUT Wire 68.  NOW, you have TWO relays...label them as Low and HIGH beams. This is the EASIEST way to do it... or IMHO...

That's it.  You have the circuit on the print and see how to do it. I RECOMMEND that you also order the Amazon TOP PICK Ratcheting Crimping Tool with, probably, an assortment of terminals. You will make PERFECT Crimps and have NO voltage drops. No offense to folks that use "hand calibrated" terminal devices...the RATCHETING crimpers give you perfect crimped terminals and are MUCH easier on the hands...

Rinse and REPEAT for HIGH BEAMS....

 

 

 

Step Cover - PCB House BATT Stud Wiring.jpg

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Actually, it was Tom with that response. 

I’ll include some pictures that might help, if you’re still working on it. I’ve been away for a bit.  
 
I have a 80a circuit breaker, that goes to slide motor mounted to the firewall. Yours doesn’t have such, so you have to grab power, as Tom stated, from the FRB.  

Monaco used the stud on the C/B to power the fog lights through a relay.  When I installed my two headlight relays, I followed suit.
Like Tom said, I found the 68 & 69 wires before the split to the left and right headlights.  My fog light relay was attached to the wood block encased in the fiberglass above the headlight. I used that same position to add an L bracket and a piece of wood for mounting the relays. 

Besides mine having power at the firewall, just follow Tom’s instructions. No need to put fuse holders by the headlights. It would make more sense to have them in the FRB with the other fuses  

Hopefully, the pictures will aid you.

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by Happycarz
Pictures upside down
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Happycarz,

this post being Camelot specific, I assume these coaches also have the smartwheel functions?  Does this “relay add” help to reduce the overheating of the circuit that melted wires at the VIP board?

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/22/2024 at 10:51 AM, MHRookie said:

Happycarz,

this post being Camelot specific, I assume these coaches also have the smartwheel functions?  Does this “relay add” help to reduce the overheating of the circuit that melted wires at the VIP board?

All the Camelots have the same “basic” Smart VIP wheel”.  The issue, if I review and follow the circuits, is that there issue is in the High/Low switch.  Follow the circuit….I posted it. The VIP section is “low amperage” as that CONTROL CIRCUIT has the headlight switch and the controller.  The headlight switch and VIP controller interact…..  BUT….there is a low amp signal wire…..look at the circuit.  It then controls the MAIN Power to the headlight circuit….so you have 20 or 25 Amps.  That is fed directly into the High/Low switch….issues there….and then the voltage drop from there to the headlights .

You ONLY, as is posted many times, need two relays.  One for the HIGH and one for the LOW. You feed good voltage as well as current into each relay.  The high/low switch is then nothing but a low amp control circuit.

If there are shorting or high resistance issues that damage the VIP circuit…..there is a “fault” there.  The 20 Amp power to the first Headlight relay is NOT switched or routed through that control system.  Monaco COULD have eliminated the FIRST relay and put two downstream…..the High/Low switch would last longer.

Pull up the print and study it.  YES, to the best of my understanding, the upper ends work the same way.  But look at your print.  You don’t need to follow every wire…but trace the high current wire….it is the circuit with the bulbs snd the single relay driver or Headlight Relay does the switching there.

Hope this helps.

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