lake49068 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 There is no power on the circuit that feeds the bathroom GFI receptacle, TV, kitchen plugs, dining area, etc. Thought it was probably a bad GFI (already replaced twice but not recently) but the replacement did not fix it. When I was checking the feed wire, I would get 120v but nothing after installing the new GFI. So I decided to bypass the GFI completely by connecting the 2 black load wires to the single black line wire. Did the same for the neutrals. Surprising, it worked momentarily and is dead again per the voltage meter plugged into a kitchen outlet. Actually had it show power but only as spike needle deflection but nothing since. Note that the breakers on the inverter did not pop and checked them periodically during diagnosis. Have tried with and without the inverter "on." Do I have an inverter problem and if so, is there a way of checking it out? Note also that the microwave is working (2nd leg of inverter if I remember). Have not checked the transfer switch...also a potential cause even though the rear AC, washer and more are working? Very frustrating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterskier_1 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 2 hours ago, lake49068 said: There is no power on the circuit that feeds the bathroom GFI receptacle, TV, kitchen plugs, dining area, etc. Thought it was probably a bad GFI (already replaced twice but not recently) but the replacement did not fix it. When I was checking the feed wire, I would get 120v but nothing after installing the new GFI. So I decided to bypass the GFI completely by connecting the 2 black load wires to the single black line wire. Did the same for the neutrals. Surprising, it worked momentarily and is dead again per the voltage meter plugged into a kitchen outlet. Actually had it show power but only as spike needle deflection but nothing since. Note that the breakers on the inverter did not pop and checked them periodically during diagnosis. Have tried with and without the inverter "on." Do I have an inverter problem and if so, is there a way of checking it out? Note also that the microwave is working (2nd leg of inverter if I remember). Have not checked the transfer switch...also a potential cause even though the rear AC, washer and more are working? Very frustrating! It's likely not your transfer switch - at least not the one between shore power and generator. If it were, you would not have power out to the microwave. You don't state if you have a dual input inverter, but I'm assuming you don't. I would disconnect the "Outlet String" with the GFI receptacle on it from the inverter itself. Then check if the inverter has 120 VAC out on that line. If do have 110 VAC at the inverter terminals, then you isolated the problem to the wiring or the GFI. Note that each manufacturer of inverters specify the GFI's that will work with that inverter. Look up in your manual and confirm you are using one of the recommended brand GFI. Report back the results and we can see what the next steps might be. -Rick N. Quartzsite, AZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 2 hours ago, lake49068 said: There is no power on the circuit that feeds the bathroom GFI receptacle, TV, kitchen plugs, dining area, etc. Thought it was probably a bad GFI (already replaced twice but not recently) but the replacement did not fix it. When I was checking the feed wire, I would get 120v but nothing after installing the new GFI. So I decided to bypass the GFI completely by connecting the 2 black load wires to the single black line wire. Did the same for the neutrals. Surprising, it worked momentarily and is dead again per the voltage meter plugged into a kitchen outlet. Actually had it show power but only as spike needle deflection but nothing since. Note that the breakers on the inverter did not pop and checked them periodically during diagnosis. Have tried with and without the inverter "on." Do I have an inverter problem and if so, is there a way of checking it out? Note also that the microwave is working (2nd leg of inverter if I remember). Have not checked the transfer switch...also a potential cause even though the rear AC, washer and more are working? Very frustrating! Sort of a Followup to Rick's post. ODDS are... You MAY not have realized that the GFCI's have DIFFERENT wiring configurations on them now. There are THREE brands recommended. Hubbell, Leviton and Eaton Wiring Devices. As a FULL Disclosure, I worked for Cooper Industries who was swallowed up by Eaton. I know the plants that make the GFCI's and I am PARTIAL to them What you need to do is to get out your VOM. You need to DISCONNECT or remove the GFCI (POWER OFF OF COURSE...GENNY's Circuit Breaker at the Genny TRIPPED off and cover any solar or remove the battery lead from a Solar Unit. NOW... TURN BACK on the Inverter. You have a Single In and Dual Out Magnum MS2012 or maybe a 2028 if you have a Res Refer. I am pretty sure that Monaco did NOT upgrade your MH to a SubPanel. you have a "Carry Over" 2009 or maybe a LATE 2010....these were the MH's that were FROZEN on the Assembly lines or were the first ones after they cleared the log jam. BACK THEN....it was MOST likely, a MS2012... SO, lets go with that. There are THREE circuit breakers on the Magnum. There is a 30 AMP INLET (that comes from the Main Panel) and TWO 20 Amp OUTPUTS. One goes directly to the GFCI and the other goes to the Microwave. OK, lets deal with the GFCI. ODDS ARE.... There are THREE Romex (White?) cables in the GFCI box. Turn ON the power....the inverter should show CHARGING and you should be able to measure voltage. The Microwave SHOULD be on. BUT, just as a verification....go to the Magnum and PRESS FIRMLY IN on all of the THREE pin style circuit breakers. The Microwave should be flashing or have power. NOW use you METER and MEASURE the voltage across the WHITE and BLACK of each "bare" or exposed cable. ONE will have VOLTAGE. That is the LINE SIDE that goes to the GFCI. Check the other one... SHOULD BE NO VAC...if there are TWO....same DEAL...NO VAC. NOW, install an APPROVED GFCI. LOOK AT THE LABEL OR the plastic cover on the back. The three brands of GFCI are different...or one will be different. You can NO LONGER assume that if you pull the wires and DO NOT CHECK the back, that it will be correct. SO, you have identified the LINE and verified NO Voltage on one or both (if there) of the other TWO (or ONE) cable. TURNOFF the power....there should be NO voltage on the INVERTER. You CAN go to the INVERTER and hold ON the POWER BUTTON. That is a SOFT RESET. Hold it for maybe 20 seconds. STOP....DO NOT DO ANYTHING... It needs to be turned ON. WE DO NOT WANT THAT. NOW, verify NO Voltage on the LINE Romex. Then find the LINE TERMINALS on the back. Attach the cable there. The OTHER two (or ONE) go the LOAD side. NOW... you can LEAVE out the GFCI or put it back in the box. Go to the Magnum. Press, Momentarily...maybe 2 seconds the POWER BUTTON. It will COME ON...give it a minute. Check the remote... NOW, you WILL HAVE TO PUSH THE RESET BUTTON on the GFCI. BINGO...once you reset it....all should be well. IF NOT....then do this... If you have a Gas Refrigerator and there is an ICEMAKER OUTLET in the rear compartment....unplug the ICEMAKER....then RESET the GFCI. IF THAT WORKS>>>then you have a SHORT in the Icemaker mold of the Refrigerator.... REPORT BACK... There MAY BE a fix for that...but do NOT want to get into the details until you try this.... That's it... THIS IS A COMMON PROBLEM and you are NOT the first... Lets see how it works out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solution lake49068 Posted January 19 Author Solution Share Posted January 19 Agree that line/load connections are reversed on the replacement GFI but I was on top of that! Flashing green light on inverter was flashing "good" per the Magnum diagnostic instructions. Pulled the access panel on the inverter and all the screws were tight and 120v and grounds checked "good" on all the appropriate posts. Input/black line at GFI box had 120v so tried various combinations of the hot combo to the 3 neutral/white wires. Connected the 3 black wires (line & load), connected the 2 white load wires together and jumped them to the bare/ground wire...power to all the outlets, TV, etc. was restored. Doesn't make sense...line return white/neutral has a break somewhere since it doesn't complete the circuit? Made a temporary cover for the box and will do a deeper dive when we get home. No outlet in the bath but can live with that for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 16 hours ago, lake49068 said: Agree that line/load connections are reversed on the replacement GFI but I was on top of that! Flashing green light on inverter was flashing "good" per the Magnum diagnostic instructions. Pulled the access panel on the inverter and all the screws were tight and 120v and grounds checked "good" on all the appropriate posts. Input/black line at GFI box had 120v so tried various combinations of the hot combo to the 3 neutral/white wires. Connected the 3 black wires (line & load), connected the 2 white load wires together and jumped them to the bare/ground wire...power to all the outlets, TV, etc. was restored. Doesn't make sense...line return white/neutral has a break somewhere since it doesn't complete the circuit? Made a temporary cover for the box and will do a deeper dive when we get home. No outlet in the bath but can live with that for a while. I think that I posted this before. BUT, your "experiment" might not be as I read it....so....from the TOP... You connected all THREE Black lead....that would be LINE (incoming) and LOAD 1 and Load 2. NOW you have the HOTS wired straight. Next, how did you TRY the THREE Whites from the SAME pieces of Romex.... Line and Load 1 and Load 2? Did that work or maybe I missed that step? Please Clarify. OK....the you jumpered and connected the GROUND and the NEUTRAL for the LOAD 1 and LOAD 2. BINGO...Success. That is where you are, bypassing the GFCI, but you do NOT have the Neutrals connected or you have to use the GROUND as a Neutral to get the downstream circuits to work. NOW... If that works, then you will need, and I assume you are going to do this, to troubleshoot. My drill would be to use LOAD and LINE 1. Wire NUT all the connections (Black to Black, White to White and Ground to Ground). THEN....test the outlets with a plug in 120 VAC Receptacle tester. If ONE is OK and the rest are bad, then start with that one and see if there is outgoing power. I assume you know that these are the Manufactured Housing receptacles. You split the Romex Jacket and then snap the outlet over the conductors. To me, a PITA as you have to really press or clamp hard. I replaced a single or one "HOLE" with a Dual and swore never again.... I will butt splice in longer leads and put in residential outlets. NOW.... ONE THING, I SUGGEST. Whilst you are playing around. Isolate your ICE MAKER receptacle. Find out WHICH LOAD it is ON. Verify that none of the "Close to water" receptacles are on this circuit. THEN, once you get things fixed, you want to move the LOAD Circuit to the LINE SIDE of the GFCI. The refrigerator (Gas/Electric or Residential) have an ICEMAKER Mold Heater as well as the Res Refers have more "heaters". They will drive even a NEW, GOOD GFCI Crazy. You fix the issue by putting them on the LINE. You home refrigerator is NOT on, per CODE, a GFCI. Monaco did this....either for convenience or stupidity. We have MORE issues with GFCI's over this than any other. As LONG AS YOU TEST...and make sure that there are NO "nearby" receptacles on the Icemaker Circuit, and you have TWO...so ODDS ARE...you are OK....then that fixes it. I am up to well over 50 members that have done this and all fixed the issues. BUT, if I understand YOUR situation, you have an OPEN or missing NEUTRAL....in ONE of the Circuits...and you have "temporarily" jumpered and that will DRIVE A GFCI CRAZY....as it should... Good Luck... Let us know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lake49068 Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 Tom, printed out your responses, annotated line by line and think we're now in sync! I'm giving the problem a rest and there are a few more things to do. Since the "line" neutral appears to be inop, I will contact Magna again to see if I can jump to an adjacent neutral (hot water plug nearby) or the inverter "needs" the line neutral to return to their box. Will try to verify that the neutral returning to the inverter is dead...but my "toned" circuit tester is at home. Will be getting the wiring CD out to see if the neutral has a junction/splice somewhere and make sure it's not compromised. And will check the ice maker circuit per your suggestion. I did purchase a non-GFI receptacle as the backup to install with the current setup. More later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 13 minutes ago, lake49068 said: Tom, printed out your responses, annotated line by line and think we're now in sync! I'm giving the problem a rest and there are a few more things to do. Since the "line" neutral appears to be inop, I will contact Magna again to see if I can jump to an adjacent neutral (hot water plug nearby) or the inverter "needs" the line neutral to return to their box. Will try to verify that the neutral returning to the inverter is dead...but my "toned" circuit tester is at home. Will be getting the wiring CD out to see if the neutral has a junction/splice somewhere and make sure it's not compromised. And will check the ice maker circuit per your suggestion. I did purchase a non-GFI receptacle as the backup to install with the current setup. More later! Still wrestling with the issue. I don’t quite understand if the lost neutral is incoming to the Magnum or is downstream of it or downstream of the GFCI. YES…let it rest. But a simple trouble shooting technique that I and others have used. Get a spool or #14 or 16 stranded hookup wire….amazon or an auto parts store. 50 ft. Attach one end to the Neutral on the Main panel or on the ATS. Then the other end to an alligator clip lead on your VOM. Use the continuity or OHMS setting. Then work your way…. Probe the incoming Magnum Neutral. Then use a 3 pin male 120 plug and hook the other lead up to the neutral for all receptacles. Check the microwave circuit. Then, test the incoming lead to the LINE side of the GFCI. NOW…, bypass or straight wire, with wire nuts, the connection at the GFCI…only need to do the white neutrals. Now take the plug and test every outlet. That will isolate it…. Sounds complicated, but easy and quick to do. I draw a blank on whether you have a block diagram on the outlets layout….check your prints… I would NOT tap into a neutral that was “adjacent” without a LOT of forethought. IF the issue is on the incoming side of the Magnum, I would consider a short run of #10 out of or attached to the “MAIN PANEL terminals (same leg Line 2) at the ATS. Then a 30 Amp breaker and then feed the Inverter directly…. Helter skelter adding Neutrals that go back to the main neutral strips is risky….I KNOW….we had a “tie TWO neutrals together” system, code approved when installed, and it had backfeed issues and scared folks when they got tingled…. I don’t know if the GFCI would even work. isolate the break. Figure out how to repair….that’s just my gut feel…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lake49068 Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 Tom, the "dead" neutral is the white "line" neutral that is in the box located in the bathroom and was connected to the neutral "line" post on the GFI. It is currently not connected. There are 2 black output/load romex cables that are wire nutted together with the black line wire. The remaining 2 white load neutral wires are connected and also connected to the 3 bare ground wires, one of which is part of the "line" romex cable. With this setup, the downstream circuits (TV, entertainment, dining and dash plugs and icemaker) all work. I'm in a pause mode and will probably not do anything more until we get home late March. Goofy problems like this one on top of the tyranny issue covered in another posting have me tuckered out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 2 hours ago, lake49068 said: Tom, the "dead" neutral is the white "line" neutral that is in the box located in the bathroom and was connected to the neutral "line" post on the GFI. It is currently not connected. There are 2 black output/load romex cables that are wire nutted together with the black line wire. The remaining 2 white load neutral wires are connected and also connected to the 3 bare ground wires, one of which is part of the "line" romex cable. With this setup, the downstream circuits (TV, entertainment, dining and dash plugs and icemaker) all work. I'm in a pause mode and will probably not do anything more until we get home late March. Goofy problems like this one on top of the tyranny issue covered in another posting have me tuckered out! OK....per our phone conversation, based on all you testing, it appears that you have a break, somewhere, in the white neutral in the Romex going from the Inverter to the GFCI. You have tested the Microwave circuit with a "receptacle" tester and all is well. You have a Progressive Surge Suppressor and it does not show an open neutral. You have "bonded" the Ground and Neutrals together inside the GFCI box and you have internal power. You are also aware of the safety concerns of not having a GFCI protected "Internal Outlet" system. When you return to home base....the search will begin for where the open or break is in the Romex from the Inverter to the GFCI J-Box. That's it. Let us know what you find out.... Here is the print from the Magnum....and you have tested the HOT 1 and HOT 2 OUT on the Inverter...and all is well there.....Good Luck. Magnum MS2012 AC TERMINAL BLOCK.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick A Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 I have a problem with my Magnum ME Series that is similar to the issues being discussed here. Is it okay to piggyback here? I'll go ahead and explain the issue. We've had this MH for 10 years and there haven't been any issues or electrical work done on it. I switched my kettle on and it took the 120-volt power supplies in the kitchen and washroom out. The microwave is still functional. The GFI didn't trip. When I opened the inverter compartment it smelt "electrical". The inverter is blinking and still charging the batteries. There are 115 volts of power on the AC Output line but zero power on the Input line. It seems like the inverter is working but there is no power coming in. Can anybody give me some instructions on what to look for? Thank you in anticipation. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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