Low voltage to interior lights

[Walker]

I am converting the 12vdc thin-lite to led.  My lights are only getting 9.5-10.2vdc, which make the leds dim.  Is this a common problem due to long runs of under sized wire or do I have a bad connection somewhere?  The batteries are at 12.6vdc.  

[MyronTruex]

Should not be a common problem. 

How are you measuring the voltage?

That is, you need a good ground for your voltmeter so you can measure the hot side of the lights as well as the negative side. A bad ground will give you the same symptoms.

I have a long jumper that I connect to a known good ground and pull it around to wherever I need my meter. I rarely trust anything inside a cabinet to be a good ground. 

I suspect your led lights draw much less than the old lights so the voltage should actually be higher. The thin lites (I can't recall), may have some electronics that drive the bulbs so are less susceptible to lower voltages.

Get a good measurement on the hot side and the cold side and post those measurements.

[TomV48]

When I had some dinning I started with my batteries and battery connections to eliminate loss from those issues.

Found my biggest problem to be poor, corroded, loose connections at the relay controlled by my "salesman switch" , the power switch at my entryway.    Ultimately I replaced that LATCHING RELAY, as it took seemed to also have loss, internally.  It was not worth it to me to try to salvage the old one as it was cruddy 

[Tom Cherry]

4 hours ago, Walker said:

I am converting the 12vdc thin-lite to led.  My lights are only getting 9.5-10.2vdc, which make the leds dim.  Is this a common problem due to long runs of under sized wire or do I have a bad connection somewhere?  The batteries are at 12.6vdc.  

Typically, the wiring to the fixtures is #12.  You need to follow the circuit back to the switch.  Start measuring there. As Myron says, make sure you have a good ground.  As “stupid” as it may seem, the ROUND PIN ground in the outlets are a grewt ground.  The AC is grounded to the Chassis…so, the DC ground is OK.  Obviously use the ROUND pin.  Then test the voltage coming in the switch….as well as outgoing.  Monaco often on lighting circuits, would run a line and parallel each fixture.

NOW…you could also run a ground from a good ground, like an outlet to the fixture.  If that kicks up the voltage….then you have a his resistance connection.

YES…a Salesman Solenoid could be the issue.  Easy to test.  Locate the solenoid.  Put your VOM leads across the terminals (the big studs). If you get close ot zero volts or maybe no more than 0.15 - 0.20….then there is no high resistance contacts.  Your pump would be running slow.  Your slides also.

Start doing some measurements.  I have “lost” at least 3 fixtures….dug them out.  The BUTT splices were bad.  You could almost pull them apart.  Cut off, stripped  and recrimped with a new one.  FIXED…. 

[MyronTruex]

As "stupid" as using the ground hole of an extension cord may sound. I bought a replacement plug and installed just one wire to it. This nice long wire has an alligator clip on it for convenience. I have used this "test cable" to identify a bad ground in my buddies dash lights dim issue, and use it all the time for my meter during other projects in the RV.

Prior to this outlet tool, I had installed a couple of ground places around the RV and had two wires that could be simply connected to either one and the wire could be connected together for a forty foot ground extension wire. 

I have thought about producing these "test cables" commercially. A fuse would be installed for safety of course. But the stinking liability is just too much and anyone can build one for less than ten dollars. 

This simple "ground extension" and my Fox and Hound are a couple of the best pieces of test equipment in my tool box.

This ground extension can be  used for testing AC household circuits as well. 

Using this ground extension cord you can measure the positive and the negative sides of the light circuit. The negative side is just as important as the hot side.

Any suggestions on a name to call this thingy would be appreciated. Thingy is a technical term used only by highly qualified and certified technicians (nuts). 

 

Edited June 5 by MyronTruex
Added picture of ground extender

[Tom Cherry]

4 hours ago, MyronTruex said:

As "stupid" as using the ground hole of an extension cord may sound. I bought a replacement plug and installed just one wire to it. This nice long wire has an alligator clip on it for convenience. I have used this "test cable" to identify a bad ground in my buddies dash lights dim issue, and use it all the time for my meter during other projects in the RV.

Prior to this outlet tool, I had installed a couple of ground places around the RV and had two wires that could be simply connected to either one and the wire could be connected together for a forty foot ground extension wire. 

I have thought about producing these "test cables" commercially. A fuse would be installed for safety of course. But the stinking liability is just too much and anyone can build one for less than ten dollars. 

This simple "ground extension" and my Fox and Hound are a couple of the best pieces of test equipment in my tool box.

This ground extension can be  used for testing AC household circuits as well. 

Using this ground extension cord you can measure the positive and the negative sides of the light circuit. The negative side is just as important as the hot side.

Any suggestions on a name to call this thingy would be appreciated. Thingy is a technical term used only by highly qualified and certified technicians (nuts). 

 

GGD (Good Ground aDoodle).  If you use…I’ll claim Trademark and Copyrights violation.

I suggested this MANY years ago….and also talked to the OLD Monaco tech support.  I posted it one time….the howl was like I suggested a penny in the old screw in fuses.

IF you encapulayed the back with JB WELD….  Then even this Ex Safety Director, who taught OSHA Electrical Safety, would approve.

Vindication is the best form of flattery…..

[MyronTruex]

3 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

GGD (Good Ground aDoodle).  If you use…I’ll claim Trademark and Copyrights violation.

I suggested this MANY years ago….and also talked to the OLD Monaco tech support.  I posted it one time….the howl was like I suggested a penny in the old screw in fuses.

IF you encapulayed the back with JB WELD….  Then even this Ex Safety Director, who taught OSHA Electrical Safety, would approve.

Vindication is the best form of flattery…..

I'm thinking one could have a molded plug made with the wire and alligator clip already attached. Ground a Doodle, that's funny. 

 

[Walker]

So I did a voltage drop test using a nearby outlet and got .03 vdc.  I checked the salesman relay.  It tested fine. I checked the rear 12v distribution panel and have a loss of .3 volts.  I checked the power at the rear wall switch and it was good.  I traced the switched wires and found a bad connector. Fixed that and now I have 11 volts at the light.  There is another connection somewhere in the ceiling that is probably the cause for the remaining loss, but I haven't been able to find it.  I have a switch at the door and a switch in the rear bedroom slide.  There is about 50' of 14 gauge wire involved in this circuit.  

[MyronTruex]

That may be all you can get with that long run of wire. 

If your led lights are now bright you may be fine. However, I have removed the bottom of the cabinets (actually inside bottom), on several cabinets to do wiring and if you find any of those crimp type connectors that bite into wires, get rid of them. They are a fault waiting to happen.

https://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotchlok-Electrical-560B-BULK-Retardant/dp/B001CGRMGQ/ref=asc_df_B001CGRMGQ?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80401905752482&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584001431422937&psc=1

I threatened to fire any of my techs if I found these in their tool boxes. 

Sure, fine for a temporary emergency fix, not for permanent use. 

Edited June 10 by MyronTruex

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, MyronTruex said:

That may be all you can get with that long run of wire. 

If your led lights are now bright you may be fine. However, I have removed the bottom of the cabinets (actually inside bottom), on several cabinets to do wiring and if you find any of those crimp type connectors that bite into wires, get rid of them. They are a fault waiting to happen.

https://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotchlok-Electrical-560B-BULK-Retardant/dp/B001CGRMGQ/ref=asc_df_B001CGRMGQ?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80401905752482&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584001431422937&psc=1

I threatened to fire any of my techs if I found these in their tool boxes. 

Sure, fine for a temporary emergency fix, not for permanent use. 

Totally agree.  I have had at least 3 failures.  Mine were actually with crimped butt splices….but the had 3 or more on one end.  Always good to gently, but firmly pull the wires on each end, one at a time….while holding the barrel of the connector.

Recommend you search Amazon for a RATCHETING CRIMPER.  Buy the one with the most ratings and then try CRIMP ON TERMINAL ASSORTMENT.  Oder both and carry that and a DVOM.

I DO admit to using the Scotchlok….but only in a dry location and only for “control” or milliamp applications.  FORGIVE ME MYRON, I HAVE SINNED…..

OK…MATT.

NEXT PROJECT.  Convert all your Halogen puck and sconce lights to LED….  As needed, have a plan for Fluorescent conversion.

 

[MyronTruex]

You fired!

No wire hangars! 

No "skotchlocs". At 150/hr of labor no one wants a customer to have to come back because of these. Since you are the customer, the call back is on you. Punishment will commence soon. Self-inflicted pain.

Not only are the prone to failure, but they also damage the wires they cut into to make the connection. 

Ok, I will get off my soap box now. But don't make me come back there. 

Here is my go to crimper. Mine is probably 40 years old now. I'm not a fan of the ratcheting type because they have some limitations and can actually overcrimp. These too require some learning. Tugging on a crimped connection is second nature. You can crimp just about any size with this one. Sure there are the monster large crimps but this one will last a lifetime and work for 99.9% of your crimps. 

If I am doing a large bundle such as you would find in a cabinet combining ground or power wires, I like to use the little cap type crimps. You twist the wires together much like an AC romex wire nut. Except these are crimped. 

https://www.amazon.com/AIRIC-200pcs-Closed-Connectors-Terminals/dp/B07WJRMVXM/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=260A5EA71KYQQ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.KymmrOi8yY1LIpAFYOSq_oEZSXbvYuwCJg74XlnIS6sumFNLHUFy8GF8l_ztRJUTDzyTVnnXTBPzhUHW-vDWR0wQPSM05znyfp7TsxsVRrvh8A9SFIVtdZUXZtZdUIFyynf-8M84GFw1_8d1hKmmBd4FUqMxLa5u7ej1hepT0X7t9TvVp01FJwIJtCCpJIT0bRLEe-yTxheyOpfimZkhaSnn9Tx6CZvvdv7G7IDPc4M.OpLw11NyNQAP6sskNcM-ZiR4MGwtUNoplnb7DPXxblc&dib_tag=se&keywords=closed+end+crimp+connector&qid=1718020257&sprefix=closed+end+%2Caps%2C143&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

Buy good ones. Lowes usually has decent ones. Often the cheap one will allow the insulation to slip off. Don't go cheap on any connectors. 

https://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Betts-WT111M-Insulated-Terminals/dp/B0018LD2PU/ref=sr_1_7?adgrpid=1330409633257024&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.WSRoLdjmTx1ggEioZM4Lfy4cNPQH4KDmXT0tBlUyUGARjtyTIh_-H5sGOl_MtiPbflIzNNUickNUFO3HhFrQ4sr6ROU6QOCfhT7Mpxt_YrWbpJrD9ZtRFq73InhLy8P7aXQIh8cc3-zA0CMfvH59559QOGsbaL9Jcg9LPJutQN_DwiXsrjfIHnwBoDQUxOFutqn_NP9Ddue1eDoYtf0jnmgu4jDGXCpxkMKfzSIq7_rQig50nsnH-YZk4QwAniPCRwuJz7i8yjnJTrXQxW9-aG1GEnOFEvflQ5mTaM53QtY.KSp2Rx4hNq_WMEFhUcQss1fYs4NSpgLBQsFikaG2ZN0&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83150842098298&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=72410&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83150943196772%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=29008_14559858&keywords=sta+kon+crimper&msclkid=e5251435064d1caf68b77253e14adabf&qid=1718019875&sr=8-7

Edited June 10 by MyronTruex

[Tom Cherry]

27 minutes ago, MyronTruex said:

You fired!

No wire hangars! 

No "skotchlocs". At 150/hr of labor no one wants a customer to have to come back because of these. Since you are the customer, the call back is on you. Punishment will commence soon. Self-inflicted pain.

Not only are the prone to failure, but they also damage the wires they cut into to make the connection. 

Ok, I will get off my soap box now. But don't make me come back there. 

Here is my go to crimper. Mine is probably 40 years old now. I'm not a fan of the ratcheting type because they have some limitations and can actually overcrimp. These too require some learning. Tugging on a crimped connection is second nature. You can crimp just about any size with this one. Sure there are the monster large crimps but this one will last a lifetime and work for 99.9% of your crimps. 

If I am doing a large bundle such as you would find in a cabinet combining ground or power wires, I like to use the little cap type crimps. You twist the wires together much like an AC romex wire nut. Except these are crimped. 

https://www.amazon.com/AIRIC-200pcs-Closed-Connectors-Terminals/dp/B07WJRMVXM/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=260A5EA71KYQQ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.KymmrOi8yY1LIpAFYOSq_oEZSXbvYuwCJg74XlnIS6sumFNLHUFy8GF8l_ztRJUTDzyTVnnXTBPzhUHW-vDWR0wQPSM05znyfp7TsxsVRrvh8A9SFIVtdZUXZtZdUIFyynf-8M84GFw1_8d1hKmmBd4FUqMxLa5u7ej1hepT0X7t9TvVp01FJwIJtCCpJIT0bRLEe-yTxheyOpfimZkhaSnn9Tx6CZvvdv7G7IDPc4M.OpLw11NyNQAP6sskNcM-ZiR4MGwtUNoplnb7DPXxblc&dib_tag=se&keywords=closed+end+crimp+connector&qid=1718020257&sprefix=closed+end+%2Caps%2C143&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

Buy good ones. Lowes usually has decent ones. Often the cheap one will allow the insulation to slip off. Don't go cheap on any connectors. 

https://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Betts-WT111M-Insulated-Terminals/dp/B0018LD2PU/ref=sr_1_7?adgrpid=1330409633257024&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.WSRoLdjmTx1ggEioZM4Lfy4cNPQH4KDmXT0tBlUyUGARjtyTIh_-H5sGOl_MtiPbflIzNNUickNUFO3HhFrQ4sr6ROU6QOCfhT7Mpxt_YrWbpJrD9ZtRFq73InhLy8P7aXQIh8cc3-zA0CMfvH59559QOGsbaL9Jcg9LPJutQN_DwiXsrjfIHnwBoDQUxOFutqn_NP9Ddue1eDoYtf0jnmgu4jDGXCpxkMKfzSIq7_rQig50nsnH-YZk4QwAniPCRwuJz7i8yjnJTrXQxW9-aG1GEnOFEvflQ5mTaM53QtY.KSp2Rx4hNq_WMEFhUcQss1fYs4NSpgLBQsFikaG2ZN0&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83150842098298&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=72410&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83150943196772%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=29008_14559858&keywords=sta+kon+crimper&msclkid=e5251435064d1caf68b77253e14adabf&qid=1718019875&sr=8-7

I believe the accused or the convicted has the right to make a statement….

FIRST…you are the professional.  A agree that a conventional crimper, in the hands of an experienced technician will do an admirable job.  And there are many cases with the versatility of the crimping job and the wire sizes might befit that tool.

BUT, as the Director of Safety, I would not want to subject a technician to using a pliers style crimper.  Use a ratcheting.  Use the pliers for the jobs that befit it.  I had Workman Compensation claims for electricians.  We also did a complete ergonomics analysis of our maintenance departments and the various crafts.  I was responsible for 12, at one time, US factories with an average employment of maybe 350…so, there were at least 25 in the maintenance area.

We provided them with an Xcelite MAC (200 series) crimper.  BTW, we owned Weller and Xcelite and Crescent. I also helped or oversaw ergonomics studies of all of our major tool lines…which included many other well known brands.

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome was almost as prevalent in our long time electricians and mechanics as it was in our assembly line operators….  CTS is a SERIOUS ISSUE…that is why we went to such great extents to prevent it.  I was a “crusader” was slighky fanatical and wanted our maturing workforce to retire with no physical limitations from their jobs….and I had support for that from the very top…as in the CEO (we were a Fortune 200 company and the CEO often sat in on major injuries like an amputation and we KNEW his concerns).  My division came from the bottom to the top in less than 3 years….my guys in the field KNEW that we were serious…and when I had a vote in a Plant Manager’s BONUS….they quickly got on board….

OK….  For the novice, my inclination, and I have taught many friends to do some “wiring”…is that a ratchet crimper is easier to use, one their hands…expecially women, and they are pretty foolproof.

As to which brand…..dealers choice.  Without debating brands….many knock offs on Amazon are great.  BTW, we also made many Klien tools and private labeled them.

NOW….if I really wanted the best…..go to ebay.  The Xcelite BLUE handle MAC 200 is a tank.  They retailed many years ago for for over $150.  We imported them or had them private labeled.  There is or was a Swedish company that was the daddy rabbit of Europe and even my German Weller plant approved these…LOL.

You can buy these for around $50.  This pair is probably 30 years old and I have extra dies (doubt they ever wear out) and the Coax Cable die set.

Please, your honor…be lenient…LOL!