MONACO GOOF - POTENTIAL LIPPERT HYDRAULIC FAILURE SLIDES and/or JACKS>>>> IMPORTANT

[Tom Cherry]

THIS IS LONG....so skim or just go DOWN TO THE WHAT TO DO NOW AND WHY section...

This pertains to a LIPPERT Hydraulic Failure.  It could HAPPEN if you have Hydraulic Slides or Hydraulic Jacks.  Mine was a slide...but if you have JACKS...you could be at risk...

My 2009 Camelot has always had an intermittent Hydraulic Slide failures.  The 200A ANL fuse blew in 2015.  The replacement (not an OEM fuse like Monaco used) failed in 2017.  I had three competent techs (Dr. Frank McElroy included) check the slides.  I also did major trouble shooting of the entire Hydraulic pump circuit.  NEVER COULD find the problem.  It was intermittent and driving it a few miles would "Fix" it.  The issue was that the pump would run SLOW.  The slide mechanism and current draw was checked by Tom Johnson's in Marion and PJ McCants (Chris Throgmartin's expert) NEVER found anything.  Finally, two weeks ago...the slides failed and I was left with them OUT and in the driveway.

I did a LOT of research.  I found ONE article that started to make sense.  I also vaguely remember noting a "Gee...that doesn't make sense" issue a few year ago when I was looking at my Monaco High Current Print.  Bottom LINE>>>>MONACO GOOFED....WHY... I think I KNOW....but that would be a guess.  HERE IS WHAT IS WRONG...

Monaco wanted to have a wiring harness from the RRB (and Battery) to the FRB that would support 200 A.  That was WAY overkill.  BTW.  If you look in your RRB...there are several Laminated (tan) ANL Fuses.  I URGE everyone to order the OEM BUSSMANN ANL - Ignition Proof or will not catch on fire FUSES.  These fuses are more robust and I have had cheaper ones fail.  I have SPARES for each size.  There is also a ROUND (300 A) fuse that connects the Inverter to the House Bank.  THIS IS CHEAP INSURANCE..

Monaco felt the "NEED?" to have an OVERSIZED and INCORRECT...ON MY CAMELOT FRB Resettable Circuit Breaker.  YES...the 200 A fuse protects the 2/0 cable to the front.  NOT AN ISSUE...

BUT, then you MUST have the proper Resettable Circuit Breaker for whatever you feed.  Monaco thought (and that is a generous) term that they needed to use a 150 Amp CB.  WHY....WELL, in case you wanted to run a Generator Slide and also your Hydraulic Slides and also your Aux Pump...then MAYBE you needed150 Amps.  BULL CRAP.  It was an ERROR and the Owner's manual is CRAP.  The drawing shows a 150.  BUT, if you did into the prints...you will find...after a LOT of searching that they REALLY did specify an 80 Amp breaker.  BUT....those prints and the installers NEVER talked to each other.

My SIMPLE (two front slides...NO GENNY SLIDE) system uses a motor that has around 65 -70 FULL LOAD AMPS.  Lippert recommends 80 Amps.  Therefore, when there was a high resistance issue (as in a loose connection or a burned contact), the motor was pulling 88% MORE current.  NOW...to make things worse... MAYBE I had a BAD 150 Amp CB.  I only had THAT CB trip ONCE in all my issues.  I DID have the 200A fuse blow TWICE....so maybe the original CB was defective or the fuse blew FIRST....

DOES NOT MATTER....The CB is supposed to protect the Hydraulic motor....and that should be rated at 80.  SO....regardless of WHAT connection or high resistance or potential cable failure...the MOTOR IS PROTECTED.  Mine was not.  Over the years, then when there was an electrical issue...it FRIED the motor.  NOW... from a "cycles" viewpoint....my hydraulic system, is almost 20 years old.  We spend about 60 nights per year out (Average....according to the EXPERTS is that a NORMAL Class A owner only does 30 or so).  We also average about 2.5 nights per stay.  Bottom line, between packing and unpacking and such, my MH is 11 years old...but the Slides are probably approaching 20 years....based on the AVERAGE USAGE.

WHAT TO DO AND WHY 

Get the Lippert Hydraulic Pump number off the unit.  There will only be (mine) THREE part number.  One is a LIPPERT model number.  Mine was 645263.  The reservoir also had a bar coded number 532299.  If you wipe the motor, there will also be a PN.  414850.  YOURS MAY VARY.  Monaco TYPCIALLY bought all the cylinders, the hoses and the pump units as a KIT from Lippert.  The hoses were precut to the correct lengths. 

Call LIPPERT.  DO NOT GO TO TECH SUPPORT.  The numbers that you have are NOT in THEIR DATA BASE.  STUPID...but factual.  Go DIRECTLY TO PARTS.  Parts is the ONLY ONE that can give you the "Original" Lippert numbers.  For example.  My unit was 645363.  They looked it up.  BINGO....the EXACT Replacement is a 156844.  WHY do you need that.  Because Tech Support can NOT find that unit.  BUT, they can find the 156844.  The replacement Motor is a 179327.  ONCE you have the REAL Lippert Part number for the Pump unit and the Specific Motor number...then tell the PARTS person to connect you to Tech Support.  Tell them you are trying to find the CORRECT Up Stream or Recommended CB protection for that motor.  Since I have NO KNOWLEDGE of what is used for Jacks...I can't HELP ANYONE..

BUT, once you have the EXACT Replacement motor and/or the Pump unit....then Tech Support can tell you WHAT SIZE TO USE.  I would ALSO record this because it is a PITA to ever find.  THEN....look and see WHAT Monaco installed.  You do NOT need to be an Electrical Genius.  There is one BIG RED wire going to a Round Tombetta Solenoid (PN 684-1211-212 and it is only a $35 part from Amazon).  Trace that Red cable BACK to wherever there is a CIRCUIT BREAKER....  Here is a picture of the Trombetta.  It is what turns ON the motor.

OK...if you have the CORRECT Breaker...you are GOOD to Go.  

if NOT....then, here is what MINE has and these are available on Amazon...

T Tocas 80 Amp Circuit Breaker Trolling with Manual Reset, 12V- 72V DC, Waterproof (80A)

 

OK..

That should get you going.....

WHAT TO LOOK FOR AND ALSO CHECK....at least it happened to me....

FIRST...  Look at the big lugs on the Solenoid and the motor.  I would take the cables off and clean the terminals and the cables and reinstall.

NOW...the MOTOR.  THIS IS TWO STEPS...  Take OFF the cables.  There is a LOCK NUT that holds the MOTOR Terminals or Studs in place.  I THINK this was my issue.  Carefully TIGHTEN (don't put a 18" breaker bar on it) the two LOCK NUTS.   Mine were loose.  The CABLES were tight on the STUD...but the stud was loose.  When you tighten the first nut...that then locks in or seats the internal studs so you have a GOOD CONNECTION.  I FINALLY found this....but I had fried or damaged my motor.  After the LOCK nuts are tight, then keep cleaning and install the two terminals.  Will take you 10 minutes TOPS....assuming you have the right size wrench or deep well sockets.

I spent about 6 hours TOTAL on the phone with Lippert.  The first Tech Support person was rude and told me I was a DUMB ASS.  That my REVERSING SOLENOID was bad.  This is a ONE DIRECTION PUMP MOTOR.  It does NOT (or at least mine did not) have the more expensive or newer Reversing Solenoid.  He argued with me and told me to go to a dealer before I broke it.  MINE was broken.

After I figured out that my CB was bad, I decided to call Lippert and get the correct Value and the Tech Support guy (Brandon) told me that he would transfer me to PARTS as he did NOT have the motor number or the pump assembly in HIS data base.  He KNEW it was there...but he could NOT CROSS REFERENCE IT.  NOW THAT IS STUPID.  I was going to order a motor and then, on a whim....asked Tammy in Parts....Can you supply a NEW unit.  The motor and solenoid would have been $1000 or so.  Lippert's price on the WHOLE NEW unit was $1635.

For us OLD TIMERS....this particular Lippert PUMP was a PITIFUL DESIGN.  The reservoir hangs out like taping a shoe box onto the side of your Motor Home.  Many of us actually saw that and fabricated a bracket to hold the reservoir up or support it and mine has lasted a LONG time with over 65K miles.  I COULD probably just install a new motor...but Lippert realized that I had an original one, that they had replaced countless times and made me an offer on a whole NEW UNIT that I could not turn down.  Regardless, why put on a motor on a unit that has a known design failure.  Spending $600 more for a WHOLE NEW unit (Valves, motor, pump, seals, etc....was a NO BRAINER.

FINALLY...

As COMPLICATED as the instructions are, you can EASILY use a DRILL and a Hex Bit and spin the motor.  Two Phillips screws and a tap of a hammer (the cap is sealed on) and there is a HEX nut.  Your manual has pictures.  You need to have an Allen wrench (9/32?).  You turn a valve CLOCKWISE and then spin the drill.  I had two guys and my wife PUSH on the slide to get it moving.  It took less than a minute of drill time and the slide was retracted.  You then turn the valve COUNTER CLOCKWISE to LOCK IT.  Then you go to the other valve and repeat....  I put some pictures of my unit in also...

 

[dl_racing427]

Good writeup, though I disagree on a couple points.

First, overkill on wiring, particularly on long runs like this, is a GOOD thing, though the correct size breakers are important.

Second, loose connections don't cause high current, at least until after the damage is done.  What they do cause is high heat, which is what damaged your motor.  It's unlikely that a smaller breaker would have tripped before the damage was done.  Breakers are generally there to protect the wiring from causing a fire, but don't necessarily protect the load from damage.

[W7BE_Bob]

In 2011 just under the 2 year warranty Lipper agreeded to replace my slide pump after I pointed out the 6 design problems with the original. Those were 1 Unsupported long tank, 2 failed pump seal, 3 no drain for the failed seal which caused the fluid to enter are ruin the motor, 4 no hex socket to turn the motor, 5 and believe it or not a nut on the end of the shaft to turn the motor with a drill - never mind that it was a right hand nut that had to turn CCW and came right off, 6 a very short shaft and no way to jam the nut on the shaft. Son and I had one hel* of a time getting the shaft to turn and bring in the slides. They sent me a new design replacement unit that is claimed to fix all of the problems including a much shorter and supported tank. Last year I started having a retracted slide extend out a inch over about a month no doubt due to a leaking valve or 2. 

Two years later with several of the extremely cheap leaking Lipper hoses I replaced all 8 with quality hydraulic hoses. If your hoses have the shiney outer plastic cover then expect them to fail. 

FYI Hydraulic slides are held in place either extended or retracted by hydraulic pressure, so when there are leaks...

On another front Monaco's wiring leaves a lot to be desired and I've fixed a number of their problems. 

[dl_racing427]

You should use the mechanical slide lock rods when traveling. 

Relying on the hydraulics alone can be catastrophic. 

[Tom Cherry]

7 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

Good writeup, though I disagree on a couple points.

First, overkill on wiring, particularly on long runs like this, is a GOOD thing, though the correct size breakers are important.

Second, loose connections don't cause high current, at least until after the damage is done.  What they do cause is high heat, which is what damaged your motor.  It's unlikely that a smaller breaker would have tripped before the damage was done.  Breakers are generally there to protect the wiring from causing a fire, but don't necessarily protect the load from damage.

I never said that the wiring was overkill.  It was a 35 ft run.  It SHOULD be big.  What happened was Monaco did not properly protect the small Lippert....in that it should have been 80 amps.

I have NO idea what the first 200 Amp blew.  All I know is that when I put back in a similar fuse and tested....it worked.   I NEVER had an issue with the NAPA ANL even though I had to elongate the terminals as it was about 1/4" shorter.  That failed in 2017.  I had the slide tested and adjusted and I kept an eye on the current.  When I had the issue this spring and tightened every connection (14 or so), it worked.  I DID put in the correct OEM fuse.  All I know....it died.  The motor will run for the big slide...but it needs to sit for at least a day for the next.  There is NO internal overload protection.

The downstream 80 Amp breaker is there STRICTLY for the motor.  It is a 1/0 going to the motor so there is NO VOLTAGE DROP.  

  

[Tom Cherry]

4 hours ago, W7BE_Bob said:

In 2011 just under the 2 year warranty Lipper agreeded to replace my slide pump after I pointed out the 6 design problems with the original. Those were 1 Unsupported long tank, 2 failed pump seal, 3 no drain for the failed seal which caused the fluid to enter are ruin the motor, 4 no hex socket to turn the motor, 5 and believe it or not a nut on the end of the shaft to turn the motor with a drill - never mind that it was a right hand nut that had to turn CCW and came right off, 6 a very short shaft and no way to jam the nut on the shaft. Son and I had one hel* of a time getting the shaft to turn and bring in the slides. They sent me a new design replacement unit that is claimed to fix all of the problems including a much shorter and supported tank. Last year I started having a retracted slide extend out a inch over about a month no doubt due to a leaking valve or 2. 

Two years later with several of the extremely cheap leaking Lipper hoses I replaced all 8 with quality hydraulic hoses. If your hoses have the shiney outer plastic cover then expect them to fail. 

FYI Hydraulic slides are held in place either extended or retracted by hydraulic pressure, so when there are leaks...

On another front Monaco's wiring leaves a lot to be desired and I've fixed a number of their problems. 

Bob,

Your Scepter is a Camelot Twin.  YES....the Lippert design was crappy.  I figured out that the unsupported reservoir was an accident waiting to happen and I and several others as well as some of the original Monacoer's all added brackets (mine also had a rubber strip for vibration) and I have not had any "Hydraulic" issues.  I THINK that someone could pop in a motor and replace the Solenoid and it would run a LONG time.  It was a HIGH RESISTANCE connection.  When the voltage drops, due to a high resistance connection, the current goes up...almost exponentially.  Simple physics and Ohm's law.  Monaco GOOFED.  

NOW...if you have the same 150 CB as mine, you are at risk.  The CB needs to be an 80.  THAT you can take to the bank...so I advise that you look.  YOUR's MAY be different.  That is straight from Lippert.

As to the Hoses....mine are fine.  I can tell you that Lippert supplied all the slide stuff from the cylinders to the balance cylinder to the hoses and the pump.  I HOPE my hoses work...they have not shown any wear and the connections are TIGHT.  

As to the nut.  Mine has a 1/2" Hex Washer nut on it.  I popped on a high torque 20 V DW Lithium drill and set it for CCW and opened the front valve as I could read MAIN (big) on the back valve.  If I had set the DW to speed 3 (less torque than speed 2), the slide would have moved quicker.  I just had my buddies PUSH so as not to strain the motor.  I THOUGHT that I read somewhere that the motor shaft was a LEFT HAND thread...  Mine never popped off or had issues.

Lippert was more than fair with me when I asked if there was any price or other consideration on the pump.  They sold it to me like I was a distributor.  I can NO say enough good things about how they handled it.

I even looked and the wiring harness has the 8 Pin Deutch plug...so it will plug and play.  Can not be happier.

Lippert, I THINK, gave out a lot of pumps and such when they realized it was a design issue.  I have a square tank now.  So, we will see.

I have issues with Monaco's wiring....and it is NOT the wiring....it is the assemblers.  I have read so much over the years.  On the Scepters and Camelots, the ONLY wiring issue or factory goof is in the 12 VDC Slide Mounted awning.  Monaco used a wire or cable that was one size too small.  The wiring issues that I have seen or helped trouble shoot is the fact that Monaco DID try to put TOO many wires into a Butt connector or combine....especially ground.  PESKY, but fixable.  As far as the high current cables go....no issue.

Hope you have the correct CB as that is a DISASTER waiting to happen...

4 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

You should use the mechanical slide lock rods when traveling. 

Relying on the hydraulics alone can be catastrophic. 

Probably so.  But after 65K miles and twice the cycles, the ONLY slide backout that I had was when the MH sat in storage for about 18 months after my accident.  The big slide moved out maybe 1/2" at the bottom and I just tapped the RETRACT and it popped back in....

[96 EVO]

Tom, do you have a picture of the 150A resettable circuit breaker in your FRB?

Pretty sure I have no circuit breakers in there. 

[dl_racing427]

Regarding your explanation of current and voltage relationship.
With a constant voltage supply (12v), if you increase resistance, current, and power, is reduced. (E=I*R) This is why the motor slows down and produces less torque.
What does the damage is the high resistance connection gets very hot, as you're now dissipating power in the connection.  Also, with the motor spinning slower, and having to run longer, it gets hotter as well which damages the windings.
Now slowing the motors rotation will reduce it's back-emf, and make it TRY to draw more current, but it won't be able to because of the lower applied voltage due to the poor connection.

[Tom Cherry]

10 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Tom, do you have a picture of the 150A resettable circuit breaker in your FRB?

Pretty sure I have no circuit breakers in there. 

Refer to original post.  There is a picture of the CB that I used.  I do not know how the circuit was run or installed in other years and/or models.  I have included the two pages (PDF) from my owner's manual that show the breaker.  We know that the Monaco Owner's manuals were the "LAST" in line for updates and/or Print revisions.

Here are the Prints - Owner's Manual for Slides

High Current with note showing error

High Current with Big Boy - note that the correct Resettable Circuit Breaker is used.

Living Room Slide Print.  THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.  If you follow the print and look at the pictures, Lippert supplied the pump unit (as well as my replacement) with a gray 8 pin (Deutch) connector.  It is visible in the pictures.  The MH "End" from the switches in the Control Panel area to the Pump (Lippert End) was a CUSTOM Monaco Harness.  PAY ATTENTION to the print.  You will see that there is a Diode "Bridge" or array on each slide.  These 3 Amp diodes are what makes it work.  NOT MANY Techs KNOW THIS.   Camping World pulled up their own data base of "GEE>>>That didn't WORK" internal Tech notes.  There were THREE, according to the service writer, NEW PUMPS installed and they did NOT fix it.  FINALLY, someone looked at the prints.  The issue was a SIMPLE 3 Amp diode that failed.  IF there is a Retract or Extend issue and only ONE way works....the SIMPLE thing is to check the voltage or the signal to the VALVE.  If there is NO SIGNAL...it is in the MONACO end and that Diode Bridge or Array needs trouble shooting.  I have never found where the diodes are located.  They could be behind the Control Panel or in the Genny compartment just upstream of the Duetch connector.  FOLKS spent a LOT of money for a $3 part and MISDIAGNOSIS....

Camelot OM Manual Override of Failed Slide Pump Motor.pdf 

12V High Current Dist TGC Rev 1..pdf High Current 12v with Big Boy.pdf Living Slideouts.pdf

[Tom Cherry]

11 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

Regarding your explanation of current and voltage relationship.
With a constant voltage supply (12v), if you increase resistance, current, and power, is reduced. (E=I*R) This is why the motor slows down and produces less torque.
What does the damage is the high resistance connection gets very hot, as you're now dissipating power in the connection.  Also, with the motor spinning slower, and having to run longer, it gets hotter as well which damages the windings.
Now slowing the motors rotation will reduce it's back-emf, and make it TRY to draw more current, but it won't be able to because of the lower applied voltage due to the poor connection.

When I was an Sophomore EE student in 1964/65, Professor Seagroves might have explained it that way in EE 201-202.  Can't recall.  Bottom line.  Lippert says that if the voltage (FLA or under load) drops below 12.5 or so, that you can damage the motor.  That sounds idiotic since you would have to have fully charged batteries.  Therefore, to follow Lippert's trouble shooting guidelines, you would have to be running your Genny to be recharging the batteries while operating the slides.  If you are on shore, in my case, the Big Boy connects the House to the Chassis.  

Conclusion...  High Resistance connections dissipate heat.  Voltage at motor drops.  Resistance increases as motor is getting hotter, i.e., the current draw increases (EE Patron Saint Ohm or maybe Kirchoff...been a long time... said that).  When the current (FLA on motor) increases past 80 Amps...it starts to burn or damage the motor.  This motor does not have internal protection.  In my case, the motor saw almost 2.5 X the normal FLA amps...and it got toasted...

[throgmartin]

Speaking of slides and electric........ Last month Dustin, my Tech that works for us went through and fixed and upgraded numerous things on my coach. I told him my front flush floor slide has run slow since the day we bought the coach new. Numerous techs have looked at it in the past and found nothing wrong with it. I have had a few times in the past where Ingrid had to bring the slide in while I pushed on it.

Dustin came back into my office in 30 minutes with a fist full of wires and a relay in his hand. He found Monaco double relayed the slide which caused low voltage at the motor through increased resistance. He removed the extra relay and the slide work like it normally should. 15 years, multiple tech diagnoses and he finds the problem in 10 minutes. I was happy but also PO'ed it was never caught before. I even had it back to the selling dealer twice and they said everything was fine.

One never knows what happens to our coaches while they are going down the line being built.

[96 EVO]

Must have been new for 09'

No circuit breaker on my 08'.

[Tom Cherry]

8 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Must have been new for 09'

No circuit breaker on my 08'.

That is fascinating.   I would be curious...but it is not my MH, where the power for the Lippert comes from.  According to Lippert, the main power (to the solenoid) is supposed to be protected with a 80 Amp fuse.  REV has stolen or taken down all the older HR info or at least I can't find it.  If you look at the Camelot...the twin that comes down the same line, you hydraulic system is different from mine.  Your's had a REVERSING Solenoid.  The main solenoid is mounted on the top.  12 VDC comes in.  Then depending of the direction, the polarity is reversed and the motor reversed.  Mine runs ONE WAY....CW.  The valves do the reversing.

Regardless, the motors are identical.  They have to be protected at 80 amps, otherwise they will overheat when there is a high resistance connection...

 

[Bob Nodine]

On 10/23/2020 at 7:46 AM, throgmartin said:

Speaking of slides and electric........ Last month Dustin, my Tech that works for us went through and fixed and upgraded numerous things on my coach. I told him my front flush floor slide has run slow since the day we bought the coach new. Numerous techs have looked at it in the past and found nothing wrong with it. I have had a few times in the past where Ingrid had to bring the slide in while I pushed on it.

Dustin came back into my office in 30 minutes with a fist full of wires and a relay in his hand. He found Monaco double relayed the slide which caused low voltage at the motor through increased resistance. He removed the extra relay and the slide work like it normally should. 15 years, multiple tech diagnoses and he finds the problem in 10 minutes. I was happy but also PO'ed it was never caught before. I even had it back to the selling dealer twice and they said everything was fine.

One never knows what happens to our coaches while they are going down the line being built.

Reminds me of the standard service provider statement "they all do that".

 

[Guest Tim503]

My 98 came with a wench and cable in the basement to bring in the slide if the system failed. Never used it. My question is the lock bars they provided to keep the slide from going out on a turn. Has anyone had the slide go out while traveling? Has there been catastrophic results not putting them in? 

[dl_racing427]

8 hours ago, Tim503 said:

My 98 came with a wench and cable in the basement to bring in the slide if the system failed. Never used it. My question is the lock bars they provided to keep the slide from going out on a turn. Has anyone had the slide go out while traveling? Has there been catastrophic results not putting them in? 

I'd NEVER drive anything with an unsecured load, and that's exactly what a slide is, if not mechanically locked into position.
A single failure in the hydraulic system can allow your slide to fly out, likely doing severe damage to your coach, and endangering anyone else on the road.

Another thing seldom mentioned, if this happens, and you did NOT install the lock bars, you will likely face additional charges and liability in an accident.
It's similar to a trucker having a load fall off their truck and crush another vehicle.  Could cost millions.

Spending a couple minutes installing the locks just makes sense.

[PatrickV]

HI All,

I've been reading this thread with great interest...and hope!

I have a 2011 HR Ambassador PFT (similar to Monaco Knight!?) This weekend, I got stranded with my front levelling jack extended (an inch off the ground) and could not retract it. Called Lippert tech support 3-4 times nad they were superb, and patient given that I am no mechanic. Tried all the tricks in the book. Oh plus the motor must have burned out since I got that knowing small from like, kinda like the alternator smell!! Eventually they advised and walked me thru opening all the valves (so I didn't need to figure which one was the front leveling jack) and then turn the main bolt in front with a drill, counterclockwise for a few minutes, and to enormous relief, see the jack slowly but steadily climb back into the up position. Thankfully I had not extended any slides once I had the levelling issue (which made for tight quarters inside for a coupe of days but beats being stranded totally). And I was able to drive the rig home. Of course I had to put up with the LCI control panel going bananas beeping for a minute or two, but that eventually stopped and the just the 5 lights stayed blinking. Now I need to find a replacement motor/pump. My original spec sheet says its a Lippert 645480. Trying desperately to find to latest model number. Anyone any ideas here? Did get on to the Parts Dept at Lippert and they are searching for me. No word back yet!! Thank you all in advance.

Patrick.

Edited October 26, 2020 by PatrickV

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, PatrickV said:

HI All,

I've been reading this thread with great interest...and hope!

I have a 2011 HR Ambassador PFT (similar to Monaco Knight!?) This weekend, I got stranded with my front levelling jack extended (an inch off the ground) and could not retract it. Called Lippert tech support 3-4 times nad they were superb, and patient given that I am no mechanic. Tried all the tricks in the book. Oh plus the motor must have burned out since I got that knowing small from like, kinda like the alternator smell!! Eventually they advised and walked me thru opening all the valves (so I didn't need to figure which one was the front leveling jack) and then turn the main bolt in front with a drill, counterclockwise for a few minutes, and to enormous relief, see the jack slowly but steadily climb back into the up position. Thankfully I had not extended any slides once I had the levelling issue (which made for tight quarters inside for a coupe of days but beats being stranded totally). And I was able to drive the rig home. Of course I had to put up with the LCI control panel going bananas beeping for a minute or two, but that eventually stopped and the just the 5 lights stayed blinking. Now I need to find a replacement motor/pump. My original spec sheet says its a Lippert 645480. Trying desperately to find to latest model number. Anyone any ideas here? Did get on to the Parts Dept at Lippert and they are searching for me. No word back yet!! Thank you all in advance.

Patrick.

Patrick

Here's the DEAL.  Your 645480 number is the OEM (as in sold to Monaco).  Lippert Tech Support does NOT have the OEM parts in their "System".  SO, here is what to do.  Clean off the motor and get the part number.  COULD be 414950.  Also get the number off the tank (if there is one).

Call LIPPERT.  Do directly to PARTS.  Do NOT go to Tech Support.  Ask if TAMMY is available.  If so, talk to her.  BUT, if not, then do the following.

Give them your 645 Number.  They will cross reference it and give you the LIPPERT Replacement.  Doesn't make sense...but that is what it is.  The 414850 OEM motor is 179327.  That can be found on the Lippert Retail page.

When you have the CURRENT Retail part number, then you can start.  might be this one.

https://store.lci1.com/vertical-pump-assembly-183827.html

It is a a BETTER DEAL to buy the ENTIRE pump assembly.  At least for me.  The motor was almost $1000.  YES, you can buy different "off shore" motors....but I tried that on a step and it was a bust.  You will also need (common sense) to replace the Solenoid.  If I had ordered the Pump Motor and Solenoid, it would have been almost $1100 with tax.  I purchased a NEW PLUG AND PLAY.

If you order a NEW UNIT, it has a NEW wiring harness.  Lippert will GIVE YOU (that's what the said) a BRAND NEW Controller for FREE.  Think about that.

Retail parts is the only way you can get the correct part numbers.  

Eventually, you will need to go back to Tech Support.  Tech Support (ask for a lady named LUZ) will figure you what Controller you will need and you SHOULD get one.

That is the drill took a LOT of time, but Lippert came through.  BTW, you will save a BUNDLE on putting in a NEW unit as the tech has to totally take everything apart.  I saved $300 PLUS in labor by purchasing the NEW unit.  Plus I have ALL NEW VALVES and such.

That worked for me....and I've been down the path.  YOU MUST cross and get Retail Parts involved.  Rest was a piece of cake...

Good Luck 

[PatrickV]

Thank you Tom. Very useful info. I'm dealing with Amanda at Lippert Parts and she's been great. Interesting that you got a new controller also!

[Guest Tim503]

On 10/25/2020 at 11:43 AM, dl_racing427 said:

 

dl_racing427 & Tim503.  Your posts, if you don't get offended at my warped sense of humor, is like two 10 year old's measuring their manhood behind the barn.  Please do so offline and don't hijack this topic for a rhetorical question.

dl_racing427 made a valid comment....but might not be the viewpoint of the majority.  That has morphed and it is not germane to the real issue of a failure.  I had HOPED that it would not go down this path, therefore, I have killed both posts that were getting into "Million Dollar" bets and such.

Thanks for your understanding and also the reason that we moderators can make changes to keep the board focused.

Tom

Edited October 27, 2020 by Tim503
inappropriate

[dl_racing427]

9 hours ago, Tim503 said:

 

dl_racing427 & Tim503.  Your posts, if you don't get offended at my warped sense of humor, is like two 10 year old's measuring their manhood behind the barn.  Please do so offline and don't hijack this topic for a rhetorical question.

dl_racing427 made a valid comment....but might not be the viewpoint of the majority.  That has morphed and it is not germane to the real issue of a failure.  I had HOPED that it would not go down this path, therefore, I have killed both posts that were getting into "Million Dollar" bets and such.

Thanks for your understanding and also the reason that we moderators can make changes to keep the board focused.

Tom

Edited October 27, 2020 by Tom Cherry
Inappropriate

[Tom Cherry]

15 hours ago, PatrickV said:

Thank you Tom. Very useful info. I'm dealing with Amanda at Lippert Parts and she's been great. Interesting that you got a new controller also!

All I was told by Tammy, as well as Luz, is that Lippert would provide a new, at NC, Controller when you ordered my particular unit....don't know if that is for a Jacks and/or Jacks and Slide unit.  So, maybe that was ONLY for my old unit....which had three levels of design revisions....and Lippert abandoned the shoe box hanging reservoir. 

One point of clarification.  Monaco designed a simple 6 Diode Array.  3 Diodes for each slide (main and other).  That works off two simple Toggle Switches (IN OFF (spring loaded) OUT).  The diodes are usually bullet proof.  So, the wiring is simple and cheap.  That is for the SLIDES.  

LCI said that I would get a new controller, FREE, if I needed it.  I did not as the simple (but totally confusing and baffling to several service techs that don't have prints or understand what a Diode does... LOL) diode array and the LCI Deutch Pigtail or Loom would plug right in.  Thus... a piece of cake.

NOW....you have a burned (probably) motor in a similar unit, but the valving is way more complex and you need a unit that will interchange.  The FREE controller was if LCI had changed the wiring or the valve functions.  SO....I can't tell you if you will or will be offered one....  Hope that explains it...

Each time I tried to order it, the agent said....We need to get Tech Support involved as we might need to include a new controller.  

Bottom line, I would try every trick to GET parts to find me a NEW and Complete unit as spending 65% for two parts is not cost effective for me.  Anything above 50% in manufacturing (Repair vs Replace) is the Rule of Thumb and I can probably think of at least 50 major projects over the years that my boss and I interceded and upgraded.  

Let us know how this goes.  IF you find the correct LIPPERT number for your unit, shoot Frank McElroy the info.  Include all the pertinent stuff like old PN, old Motor PN, etc. and replacement numbers....that LCI tech support can look up.  He will include in the Parts List.

Thanks...

[PatrickV]

Thank you Tom.

The number I've been given by Lippert (and ordered)  is #176687 as the replacement for 645480 (discontinued). I will know in 2-3 weeks if it works when its installed!!!!

I'm new to the group so need to figure out how to get that info to Frank and also I didn't even know there was a part's list on this forum.

Patrick.

[dl_racing427]

On 10/27/2020 at 11:57 AM, dl_racing427 said:

dl_racing427 & Tim503.  Your posts, if you don't get offended at my warped sense of humor, is like two 10 year old's measuring their manhood behind the barn.  Please do so offline and don't hijack this topic for a rhetorical question.

dl_racing427 made a valid comment....but might not be the viewpoint of the majority.  That has morphed and it is not germane to the real issue of a failure.  I had HOPED that it would not go down this path, therefore, I have killed both posts that were getting into "Million Dollar" bets and such.

Thanks for your understanding and also the reason that we moderators can make changes to keep the board focused.

Tom

Tom,

No problem.  I do tend to get passionate at times.
Thanks for keeping us on track, and for all the work that you and others do to make this forum a great resource for Monaco owners.

David

[96 EVO]

On 10/23/2020 at 5:07 PM, Tom Cherry said:

That is fascinating.   I would be curious...but it is not my MH, where the power for the Lippert comes from.  According to Lippert, the main power (to the solenoid) is supposed to be protected with a 80 Amp fuse.   

Found my breaker mounted to the firewall, above the hyd pump, buried behind wireing harnesses, and air lines from the brake pedal.