ECM on a monaco diplomat

[Tom Cherry]

12 hours ago, Mike T Phillips said:

Thought I saw somewhere on this fireman their was a website you could go to with your engine number and get the parameters but I can’t find it now

Forem not fireman.     

Yes and NO. With your Engine SN and the SN of the ECM, then any refurbisher can supply a new ECM. It will meet the Cummins Emissions requirements for that engine. The Refurbishers have access to "flash", I believe...so that works. When Cummins does a PROPER ECM test and replace, they will bring out a Generic ECM and test. Your engine fires and runs and the InSight says OK...then they know that a new or refurbished ECM will work.  Then they order. That is, I believe, the standard practice.

Now, the "mystery" and this is WHAT I believe to be true...as well as having been directly involved and getting Frank's help for a buddy...and the SOLUTION to the OP, which is fixed now. 

Monaco has to put in "Line item entries" for all the interface, including the Allison Shift and Cruise and Tire Size and Rear Axle ratio. Those are SUPPLIED and PROGRAMED by Monaco and do NOT exist anywhere. SO, yes...from an emissions and engine running standpoint...the Refurbed or new ECM will run the engine....but can you DRIVE IT?  It would take a humongous effort for every tuner or rebuilder to have all the OTHER "Manufacturer Supplied" info and Monaco, never to my knowledge, did that.

FWIW...there are THREE levels of "ECM Complexity.  Simple...in the early 2000's for the lower end models....somewhat MORE complex for the uppers. Then in the mid 2007 range...the Engines were more complex...and Monaco also incorporated some features. Mine is along those line. COMPLEX...OMG.  That is in the Dynasties and above and was what a buddy's 2008 Navigator had. Frank had a copy and the Cummins tech had to go through the entire file and copy or key in the various parameters.

SO...the short answer...NO SHOP has, unless it is Cummins or OTR shop, a COMPLETE copy of the ECM. A generic NEW (refurbished) ECM will work and you can run the engine...but the drive parameters...such as the "Gee...I changed the tranny from an ALlison to a manual" tinkering....or shade tree is what you want to avoid.

Others might differ...but this is what I believe.....

[Ken Thompson]

Do all of the chassis wiring harnesses use the same exact plug that plugs the chassis to the engine and the transmission? In other words, can I plug an 8.8 ISL 400 engine  from 2003-2007 with the common rail fuel system in to my old 2001 8.3 ISC350 engine wiring harness? I know the ECM will need to be programmed to my transmission. 

[Guest Ray Davis]

20 minutes ago, Ken Thompson said:

Do all of the chassis wiring harnesses use the same exact plug that plugs the chassis to the engine and the transmission? In other words, can I plug an 8.8 ISL 400 engine  from 2003-2007 with the common rail fuel system in to my old 2001 8.3 ISC350 engine wiring harness? I know the ECM will need to be programmed to my transmission. 

IRV2 has a Cummins forum.  Have you asked there?

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/

 

[Ken Thompson]

Not yet 

[Frank McElroy]

48 minutes ago, Ken Thompson said:

Do all of the chassis wiring harnesses use the same exact plug that plugs the chassis to the engine and the transmission? In other words, can I plug an 8.8 ISL 400 engine  from 2003-2007 with the common rail fuel system in to my old 2001 8.3 ISC350 engine wiring harness? I know the ECM will need to be programmed to my transmission. 

Ken, as we discussed offline the 50 pin OEM plugs are identical with identical input pin configurations for the ISC and ISL except for the reconfiguration if the PAC to Jake brake that needs to be done on pin O of the 23 pin connector. 

Let's see is someone provides information to the contrary where the CAPS ISC OEM ECM connection doesn't match the common rail ISL OEM ECM connection.  The wiring harness diagrams I have say they do except for the change from PAC to Jake brake.

[vanwill52]

I talked with Frank on the phone a day or two ago, regarding replacing an ISC with an ISL.  My comment is NOT germane to that particular subject.

But two years ago, I had to replace the ECM of my 2000 Dynasty 36 with ISC-350.  The independent shop did have legitimate INSITE software, but my ECM was too far gone for them to extract all the necessary parameters.  They used the engine serial number to get the Cummins FACTORY to locate the Cummins DEALER (near Coburg, OR) that had sold the engine to Monaco. In approximately year 2000, it was customary that the dealer selling the engine would pre-load the parameters Monaco asked for, and that Monaco themselves had nothing to do with it.

The repair shop I used called that Cummins DEALER in OR and it still had the parameter file saved.  They sent my repair shop a copy of it for free.  My shop then pre-programmed my soon-to-be-installed "remanufactured" (cleaned, checked, and painted) ECM using their INSITE software.  Everything went without a hitch.

This seems to be contrary to what I've read here.  The very sharp technician at the repair shop told me it was his understanding that the Cummins FACTORY sent complete engines to DEALERS with only basically necessary parameters installed and the DEALER installed the parameters to suit the purchaser.

Good luck!  Hope your quest turns out as smoothly as mine did.  Total bill was about $7500.

[Guest Ray Davis]

12 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

The wiring harness diagrams I have say they do except for the change from PAC to Jake brake.

If he can't figure out the wiring for he jake brake couldn't he just leave the exhaust brake in play until later?

[Ken Thompson]

I have heard that some leave the pacbrake in as well as the 2 stage jake. It all has to go thru the ECM though. So when programming the ECM, it would be better to do it all at once I would think.

39 minutes ago, vanwill52 said:

I talked with Frank on the phone a day or two ago, regarding replacing an ISC with an ISL.  My comment is NOT germane to that particular subject.

But two years ago, I had to replace the ECM of my 2000 Dynasty 36 with ISC-350.  The independent shop did have legitimate INSITE software, but my ECM was too far gone for them to extract all the necessary parameters.  They used the engine serial number to get the Cummins FACTORY to locate the Cummins DEALER (near Coburg, OR) that had sold the engine to Monaco. In approximately year 2000, it was customary that the dealer selling the engine would pre-load the parameters Monaco asked for, and that Monaco themselves had nothing to do with it.

The repair shop I used called that Cummins DEALER in OR and it still had the parameter file saved.  They sent my repair shop a copy of it for free.  My shop then pre-programmed my soon-to-be-installed "remanufactured" (cleaned, checked, and painted) ECM using their INSITE software.  Everything went without a hitch.

This seems to be contrary to what I've read here.  The very sharp technician at the repair shop told me it was his understanding that the Cummins FACTORY sent complete engines to DEALERS with only basically necessary parameters installed and the DEALER installed the parameters to suit the purchaser.

Good luck!  Hope your quest turns out as smoothly as mine did.  Total bill was about $7500.

 

I think with the right programmer, it’s all possible. 
 

[Guest Ray Davis]

40 minutes ago, Ken Thompson said:

I have heard that some leave the pacbrake in as well as the 2 stage jake. It all has to go thru the ECM though. So when programming the ECM, it would be better to do it all at once I would think.

 

I think with the right programmer, it’s all possible. 
 

You think the ECM will need reprograming if you stay with the exhaust brake?

 

[Frank McElroy]

The engine ECM is programmed for the engine operation.  So, if the engine has a Jake brake the ECM will already be programmed for a Jake brake.  The ECM can't have both a Jake and PAC brake at the same time.  You also can't swap ECMs between an ISC and an ISL.  The ECM is specifically programmed for the engine serial number.

What the new engine won't have correctly programmed are certain chassis parameters like wheel size, axle ratio, etc.  It would be best to get a parameter dump from the old ISC and then edit any incorrect parameters in the replacement ISL computer.  That is easy to do via the INSITE software.

As for the conversion from PAC to Jake brake, the coach would need some rewiring on pin O on the 23 pin engine harness and the addition of a high/low switch on the dash.

[Tom Cherry]

29 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

The engine ECM is programmed for the engine operation.  So, if the engine has a Jake brake the ECM will already be programmed for a Jake brake.  The ECM can't have both a Jake and PAC brake at the same time.  You also can't swap ECMs between an ISC and an ISL.  The ECM is specifically programmed for the engine serial number.

What the new engine won't have correctly programmed are certain chassis parameters like wheel size, axle ratio, etc.  It would be best to get a parameter dump from the old ISC and then edit any incorrect parameters in the replacement ISL computer.  That is easy to do via the INSITE software.

As for the conversion from PAC to Jake brake, the coach would need some rewiring on pin O on the 23 pin engine harness and the addition of a high/low switch on the dash.

Not to be flippant, but the programing and the wiring mods sound trivial compared to the physical items needed for the swap….not to mention the body work…..and if the ISL is a newer DPF or DEF, then that compounds it.  But, I have seen folks put a hopped up 302 Mustang mill into a Volvo SW and loved it….

[Frank McElroy]

3 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Not to be flippant, but the programing and the wiring mods sound trivial compared to the physical items needed for the swap….not to mention the body work…..and if the ISL is a newer DPF or DEF, then that compounds it.  But, I have seen folks put a hopped up 302 Mustang mill into a Volvo SW and loved it….

Tom, that would be a pre EGR used ISL.  Basically the same block.  According to the shop his old ISC is not repairable so engine needs to be replaced.

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Frank McElroy said:

Tom, that would be a pre EGR used ISL.  Basically the same block.  According to the shop his old ISC is not repairable so engine needs to be replaced.

Thanks.  I assumed that the replacement would be a pre-EGR….  GOOD TERM.  .Now I know.  Still standby the comment on getting that engine in and “fitted” out …. Both mechanically and electrically.  Not for the faint of heart….

Wish him luck…

[Guest Ray Davis]

1 hour ago, Frank McElroy said:

You also can't swap ECMs between an ISC and an ISL.

That changes things,  I presumed he was planning to put his old ECM on the new old engine.

It would be interesting to try using the old ECM and see how it preformed.

Does he already have an engine?  If not and he bought a used one from a wrecked Monaco the ECM would be programed.  Seems like that would help simplify the things.

[Frank McElroy]

Putting an ECM programmed for an ISC wouldn't work on an ISL.  At full power an ISL requires a lot more fuel than an ISC.  It takes fuel to get that extra torque and horsepower from the ISL.  Besides, a used engine would already come with the ECM mounted to the fuel cooling plate on the side of the block and connected to all the Cummins engine components via one of the ECM 50 pin connectors.

[Tom Cherry]

4 hours ago, vanwill52 said:

I talked with Frank on the phone a day or two ago, regarding replacing an ISC with an ISL.  My comment is NOT germane to that particular subject.

But two years ago, I had to replace the ECM of my 2000 Dynasty 36 with ISC-350.  The independent shop did have legitimate INSITE software, but my ECM was too far gone for them to extract all the necessary parameters.  They used the engine serial number to get the Cummins FACTORY to locate the Cummins DEALER (near Coburg, OR) that had sold the engine to Monaco. In approximately year 2000, it was customary that the dealer selling the engine would pre-load the parameters Monaco asked for, and that Monaco themselves had nothing to do with it.

The repair shop I used called that Cummins DEALER in OR and it still had the parameter file saved.  They sent my repair shop a copy of it for free.  My shop then pre-programmed my soon-to-be-installed "remanufactured" (cleaned, checked, and painted) ECM using their INSITE software.  Everything went without a hitch.

This seems to be contrary to what I've read here.  The very sharp technician at the repair shop told me it was his understanding that the Cummins FACTORY sent complete engines to DEALERS with only basically necessary parameters installed and the DEALER installed the parameters to suit the purchaser.

Good luck!  Hope your quest turns out as smoothly as mine did.  Total bill was about $7500.

This is more “rhetorical”, and you have the experience.  It DOES make sense that a Cummins’ dealer added the parameters.  Based on a lot of listening to Frank’s explanations and his experience….I see it this way.

The ECM comes from the factory with the basics or the emissions and such.  As Frank pointed out, if the engine has the Jake or the compression brake, then the ECM would have that built in or programmed.  Otherwise, the integration of a Pack Brake has to be done.

I am speculating here, if an engine were to be for stock Camelot, then there is only one set of parameters.  Likewise,, I know  that the ISL’s used in the Dynasties had the Jake brake.  So, only the tire revs, rear end ratio and such were needed. I am a little light regarding the Transmission ratios and such and the final ratio or teeth of the Allison gear. 

BUT, when times got really tight…and Monaco’s supply of the stock ISL with the Exhaust brake gave out, towards the end of the 2009 pre bankruptcy shutdown, Monaco was overstocked on the ISL with compression Jake and was substituting the Dynasty engine in the Camelots and Scepters.  Not supposition, but FACT.  I still have the MSRP for a Scepter, on the line, that I could have “got” compared to the Camelot on a dealer’s lot…..which I chose.  Therefore, that particular engine would have, if the Cummins dealer programmed it….and that sounds logical…the wrong tire and rear end ratio and maybe one or other two “lines”.

I think your explanation is correct.  Monaco ordered X ISL standard for the Camelots and Y ISL Jake’s for the Dynasty. Probably not a big deal….

Going out on a limb, I was told by Allison, as well as Monaco, that they used a local “outside” service to program the info into the Allison TCM.  Again….X TCM’s for the Camelot….as the shift points are higher….and Y TCM’s (different program) for the Dynasty.  My Allison does the 5-6 shift around 61/62. Frank’s Allison (same as mine) and we both have the ISL, has different shift points….maybe around 55/56.  The actual numbers don’t matter. Frank’s rear end is a much lower ratio.  That means his RPM gets up to the magic “1250” faster and it shifts quicker.  BUT the TCM’s were (probably) designated specifically for a Dynasty or a Camelot. I DO wonder about the “reprogramming” phase that SHOULD a have been done to get that Scepter out the door.  As it was….it got stranded and then carried a 2010 badge.  I actually chased it down for some info on the model of the Res Refer, again….no Gas Dometics available.

Yes, it does make sense….Monaco used outside jobbers and sub contractors and never did any major sub assembly in house…..like programming the ECM or the TCM.

Appreciate the post and explanation. Your shop did a great job…. 

[Frank McElroy]

47 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

This is more “rhetorical”, and you have the experience.  It DOES make sense that a Cummins’ dealer added the parameters.  Based on a lot of listening to Frank’s explanations and his experience….I see it this way.

The ECM comes from the factory with the basics or the emissions and such.  As Frank pointed out, if the engine has the Jake or the compression brake, then the ECM would have that built in or programmed.  Otherwise, the integration of a Pack Brake has to be done.

I am speculating here, if an engine were to be for stock Camelot, then there is only one set of parameters.  Likewise,, I know  that the ISL’s used in the Dynasties had the Jake brake.  So, only the tire revs, rear end ratio and such were needed. I am a little light regarding the Transmission ratios and such and the final ratio or teeth of the Allison gear. 

BUT, when times got really tight…and Monaco’s supply of the stock ISL with the Exhaust brake gave out, towards the end of the 2009 pre bankruptcy shutdown, Monaco was overstocked on the ISL with compression Jake and was substituting the Dynasty engine in the Camelots and Scepters.  Not supposition, but FACT.  I still have the MSRP for a Scepter, on the line, that I could have “got” compared to the Camelot on a dealer’s lot…..which I chose.  Therefore, that particular engine would have, if the Cummins dealer programmed it….and that sounds logical…the wrong tire and rear end ratio and maybe one or other two “lines”.

I think your explanation is correct.  Monaco ordered X ISL standard for the Camelots and Y ISL Jake’s for the Dynasty. Probably not a big deal….

Going out on a limb, I was told by Allison, as well as Monaco, that they used a local “outside” service to program the info into the Allison TCM.  Again….X TCM’s for the Camelot….as the shift points are higher….and Y TCM’s (different program) for the Dynasty.  My Allison does the 5-6 shift around 61/62. Frank’s Allison (same as mine) and we both have the ISL, has different shift points….maybe around 55/56.  The actual numbers don’t matter. Frank’s rear end is a much lower ratio.  That means his RPM gets up to the magic “1250” faster and it shifts quicker.  BUT the TCM’s were (probably) designated specifically for a Dynasty or a Camelot. I DO wonder about the “reprogramming” phase that SHOULD a have been done to get that Scepter out the door.  As it was….it got stranded and then carried a 2010 badge.  I actually chased it down for some info on the model of the Res Refer, again….no Gas Dometics available.

Yes, it does make sense….Monaco used outside jobbers and sub contractors and never did any major sub assembly in house…..like programming the ECM or the TCM.

Appreciate the post and explanation. Your shop did a great job…. 

Tom, I looked up your ECM report and your ECM does have the Jake brake option in the software but Variable geometry turbo is the option selected for Engine brake type.

[Tom Cherry]

8 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Tom, I looked up your ECM report and your ECM does have the Jake brake option in the software but Variable geometry turbo is the option selected for Engine brake type.

That makes sense.  All the Camelots and Scepters were listed as VGT exhaust brakes.  But, my point, if Monaco dropped a Dynasty engine, like yours, which had the Jake brake, unless the dealer or someone reprogrammed the ECM, the rear end ratio would be incorrect in the  ECM.  There was, memory, only one fixed ratio for the Camelots/Scepters…..regardless of length.  Same for the Dynasty.  So, an engine originally slated for a Dynasty would pop right in, but the ECM would be incorrect.  TCM’s, if Monaco were smart, would have been left alone….as they were programmed for the rear but, knowing Monaco, one never knows.

Wanna make a bet on the ECM in the “hopped up” Scepter….my bet is that it has the wrong ratio….as Monaco had, per Van’s write up, no in house reprogramming…..UNLESS they really had a JIT delivery for the engines….

[Ken Thompson]

3 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Not to be flippant, but the programing and the wiring mods sound trivial compared to the physical items needed for the swap….not to mention the body work…..and if the ISL is a newer DPF or DEF, then that compounds it.  But, I have seen folks put a hopped up 302 Mustang mill into a Volvo SW and loved it….

Ultimately I’m looking for a 2004-2007 ISL 400. W/O DEF and EGR,  but with the common rail fuel system. A VGT turbo would be nice, but not a deal breaker. I think having the wires going into the ECM from my coach match the correct pins is the crucial part. 

[Ken Thompson]

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

Thanks.  I assumed that the replacement would be a pre-EGR….  GOOD TERM.  .Now I know.  Still standby the comment on getting that engine in and “fitted” out …. Both mechanically and electrically.  Not for the faint of heart….

Wish him luck…

Tom

Thanks for the good luck wishes! My coach is currently at a Cummins shop in Portland. The service manager is still supposedly trying to get me a price on a reman. ISL from Cummins. It’s been 2 weeks so far. He isn’t too excited about doing the repower, but the mechanic wants to do it. I’m also looking for a low mile used one as well. Since they have never done it before, I kinda think I will be paying extra for the mechanic’s education while doing it. I’m leaning towards spending the extra $3k to have it towed down to Venita, OR to Source Engineering, and have the do it. When Monaco, Country Coach, Beaver, etc went under, they all needed a job, so they started Source Engineering. They know Monaco’s inside and out. They are willing to do it once I figure out which engine I am going to use  and make sure the ECM wiring match up. At this point I have ordered the CM554 and CM850 diagrams to see if they match up. I’m not sure which other ECM’s would be a popular choice. The ISL’s are hard to come by  before the DEF and EGR. This has definitely been an experience to say the least! I feel really fortunate to find Frank, and the rest of the smart Monacoers on here. The quest continues!

Ken