New TRW Steering Sector - 1" free play - is that normal?

[Ali-026]

Hello Fellow Monaco'ers

There is one inch free play on the steering wheel of our 2000 Windsor with 37k miles on the clock. We have got a TRW box from Weller installed couple months ago and did the steering lash adjustment but unable to reduce the play to less than one inch (please see video below). Would this be normal for our coach? Any suggestions on how to reduce free play would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

Ali   

Edited August 22, 2022 by Ali-026

[Bootlegger]

I replaced my Sheppard with a TRW box and I have some play, but it is much better than the Sheppard box I had previously.  The below link has a lot of information in regards to what is, and what isn't acceptable for steering play.  Some claim to get it to zero play, but I was not that lucky and have about 1/2 to 1" of play on my Safari Cheetah.  Before the steering box swap, I had 5 to 6" of play.

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/steering-box-play-sheppard-m100-shim-or-swap-for-a-trw-210152.html

Good Luck and be safe.

[BradHend]

This 1” of play you’re describing is with the engine running or not running?

[Ali-026]

Hi Barry, thank you for the link. I am now thinking obtaining zero play might depend on the TRW model. I have a TAS65028A and I've called Weller and they told me it might not be possible to achieve zero play on this model.

Hi Brad, it's actually both. The video was taken with engine off where it's easy to measure free play. I can feel the same play when I am driving as well. On a straight smooth road, I can move the wheel left and right about an inch and the RV stays put. Similarly if I hold the wheel steady when driving and the motorhome wanders slightly left or right depends on the road and wind, and I will need to make constant corrections to keep it within the lane.    

[Cubflyer]

Ali,

The amount of motion shown in your video is very little for a steering wheel, connected to a steering box through two universal joints, and the box itself is not a rack and pinion (like most cars are today) but a worm gear with some 'lash', with a pitman arm sticking out of it connected to a push-pull rod with pivot points that then connects to a tie rod with more pivot points.....  Do you get the idea that I do not think your 'wandering problem' has much to do with your steering wheel movement? 

There are many posts in this forum and others that goes into the ways to improve the stability (ability of a coach to roll straight and not wander all over on it's own).

Look for "watts link" "cross bars" "sway (stabilizer) bars".

I believe your coach may not have these items and adding them will make it drive more like other large vehicles you have driven.  The Roadmaster chassis in our coaches have a mind of their own without these stabilizing accessories.

Ken

 

[throgmartin]

Your question is one for the Roadmaster Guru/Expert, Van Williams.

There are so many variables in the front steering linkage that come into play that what you are experiencing may not be the fault of the steering box. If the steering and handling is bothersome for you then I suggest a trip to see Barry's guys at Josam's in Orlando. They are the # 1 Roadmaster chassis shop in the country and have forgot more about our coach chassis then any other shop will ever learn. 

Van and Craig French did my conversion ( TRW - Watts Link - Rear Cross Bars ). I have no experience with just a TRW change out. Everything was done at once and wow what a major difference in handling and steering. I do know, talking to a few customers who did just the TRW improved steering, that they got some improvement but they later added the watt's link and rear cross bars which made a huge difference.

As an aside, my coach was an ill handling beast. I hated driving it as it was all over the road. Ironically I was on my way to Van's house for the chassis mod's when I nearly totaled it. I got hit with a real bad cross wind that came out of nowhere and I nearly rolled it off a Savanah overpass. It took 3 lanes to get it back under control and took 2 years off my life. I have been hit with some fierce cross winds landing airplanes but unfortunately our coaches do not have ailerons or rudders to crab and correct against winds. I think I pulled 3 lbs of foam from my drivers seat with my rear end after that near miss in Savanah. All that saved me was there was no traffic anywhere near me as I gobbled up all the north bound lanes. 🙂

 

[Tom Cherry]

12 hours ago, Ali-026 said:

Hi Barry, thank you for the link. I am now thinking obtaining zero play might depend on the TRW model. I have a TAS65028A and I've called Weller and they told me it might not be possible to achieve zero play on this model.

Hi Brad, it's actually both. The video was taken with engine off where it's easy to measure free play. I can feel the same play when I am driving as well. On a straight smooth road, I can move the wheel left and right about an inch and the RV stays put. Similarly if I hold the wheel steady when driving and the motorhome wanders slightly left or right depends on the road and wind, and I will need to make constant corrections to keep it within the lane.    

Never tried that....Van adjusted my play....very little after maybe 55K.  I would NOT sweat it.  The OTHER thing I would add...  make sure that when you or whomever greases your chassis that they have the lube chart. Don't know about the older ones, but there is a fitting on the steering wheel shaft (coming down from the wheel) that is very high up....above, at least on mine, the Steering box.  MAKE SURE THAT IS GREASED.  You may ALSO have a fitting UNDER the steering wheel on the INSIDE. You have to pull the two piece cover off and rotate the wheel slightly to get to the fitting.  I grease that one every 2 years or so...UNLESS I drove a lot the year before.

 

[Larry Laursen]

I would check the play in the u-joints and splines on the steering shaft going from the wheel to the box.  If you are getting the play with the engine off, it is probably there.  The previous owner may not have had good maintenance on the unit.  The fittings above the steering box are very difficult to get to and grease.

[RoadTripper2084]

9 hours ago, Larry Laursen said:

I would check the play in the u-joints and splines on the steering shaft going from the wheel to the box.  If you are getting the play with the engine off, it is probably there.  The previous owner may not have had good maintenance on the unit.  The fittings above the steering box are very difficult to get to and grease.

This.  On my rig I discovered that the u-joint behind the cover under the steering wheel had been tightened with slack in it causing about an inch of slop in the wheel. So I loosened it and raised the bottom rod from the steering box to make a snug fit and re-tightened - that really improved the wheel sloppiness.

 

[Ali-026]

Ken, Chris T, Tom, Larry, Ken F - Thank you all so much for your inputs. You made some great suggestions.

I had wandering and rut tracking issues on our 2000 Windsor since we purchased it from the previous owner 6 years ago. I've done a few things to improve handling which are listed below:

1. replaced tires, weighed coach, adjusted tire pressures
2. checked and corrected ride height
3. front alignment done
4. checked u-joints, all steering linkages and components for play, tried to adjust TRW
5. replaced shocks
6. checked trailing arm and panhard bar bushings (looked okay)
7. annual chassis lubrication per roadmaster guide
8. installed front watts link and rear cross bars
9. replaced original TRW steering gearbox with a reman one from Weller (actually did that twice)

I heard good things about Josams and I wish we were on the east coast so I can take the coach for an expert mechanic inspection (We are located south of San Francisco)   

Today I've decided to try a few things on the steering gearbox and steering column. First I re-checked all u-joints and splines on the column making sure no play there. Then I wanted to re-tighten adjustment screw following TRW lash adjustment procedure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DysQgR1tpBs

I was surprised to see the adjusting screw only moved about half a turn and gets stuck either way (jam nut was loose). It was strange that it did not move beyond that either to loosen or tighten. I double checked the timing mark on the sector shaft and it was spot on. I then decided to disregard TRW's instructions and started the engine, tried again, same, only moves about half a turn. Something was not right.

I've then reached up to the input shaft of the steering gearbox and jiggled it left and right while at the same time trying to loosen the adjustment screw. To my surprise, although it was hard, i was able to loosen it to about full turn. I turn the engine off, and checked free play again on the wheel and now it was about 2 inches. I was able to make it worse 🙂

Next I've tried tightening the screw with engine off, again it would not budge beyond perhaps quarter turn. I've started the engine again and wrestled with the screw about 45 mins jiggling the darn input shaft and trying to tighten the screw, only able to tighten it tiny bit of a time. At the end I was really tired but I was able to bring it back to where it was and 1/8 of a turn more than I've started. Play on the wheel is now 3/4 of an inch.

Next, I am going to try this procedure with a helper. I will have my wife to jiggle the steering wheel while I will try tightening the screw a bit more if I can. I am hoping perhaps I might be able to reduce the lash down to 1/2 inch at the steering wheel. From now on I will try adjusting the screw with engine running. Those TRW instructions somehow does not work on our box. I am not surprised because 2000-2001 Windsors are a bit oddball, those are the only years with slip rings on the column instead of a clock spring. I think we end up getting some strange TRWs as well. 

As always your thoughts and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thank you
Ali 

[Frank McElroy]

1 hour ago, Ali-026 said:

Ken, Chris T, Tom, Larry, Ken F - Thank you all so much for your inputs. You made some great suggestions.

I had wandering and rut tracking issues on our 2000 Windsor since we purchased it from the previous owner 6 years ago. I've done a few things to improve handling which are listed below:

1. replaced tires, weighed coach, adjusted tire pressures
2. checked and corrected ride height
3. front alignment done
4. checked u-joints, all steering linkages and components for play, tried to adjust TRW
5. replaced shocks
6. checked trailing arm and panhard bar bushings (looked okay)
7. annual chassis lubrication per roadmaster guide
8. installed front watts link and rear cross bars
9. replaced original TRW steering gearbox with a reman one from Weller (actually did that twice)

I heard good things about Josams and I wish we were on the east coast so I can take the coach for an expert mechanic inspection (We are located south of San Francisco)   

Today I've decided to try a few things on the steering gearbox and steering column. First I re-checked all u-joints and splines on the column making sure no play there. Then I wanted to re-tighten adjustment screw following TRW lash adjustment procedure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DysQgR1tpBs

I was surprised to see the adjusting screw only moved about half a turn and gets stuck either way (jam nut was loose). It was strange that it did not move beyond that either to loosen or tighten. I double checked the timing mark on the sector shaft and it was spot on. I then decided to disregard TRW's instructions and started the engine, tried again, same, only moves about half a turn. Something was not right.

I've then reached up to the input shaft of the steering gearbox and jiggled it left and right while at the same time trying to loosen the adjustment screw. To my surprise, although it was hard, i was able to loosen it to about full turn. I turn the engine off, and checked free play again on the wheel and now it was about 2 inches. I was able to make it worse 🙂

Next I've tried tightening the screw with engine off, again it would not budge beyond perhaps quarter turn. I've started the engine again and wrestled with the screw about 45 mins jiggling the darn input shaft and trying to tighten the screw, only able to tighten it tiny bit of a time. At the end I was really tired but I was able to bring it back to where it was and 1/8 of a turn more than I've started. Play on the wheel is now 3/4 of an inch.

Next, I am going to try this procedure with a helper. I will have my wife to jiggle the steering wheel while I will try tightening the screw a bit more if I can. I am hoping perhaps I might be able to reduce the lash down to 1/2 inch at the steering wheel. From now on I will try adjusting the screw with engine running. Those TRW instructions somehow does not work on our box. I am not surprised because 2000-2001 Windsors are a bit oddball, those are the only years with slip rings on the column instead of a clock spring. I think we end up getting some strange TRWs as well. 

As always your thoughts and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thank you
Ali 

A word of caution - the gearbox is adjusted to remove play between the input and output shafts of the gearbox when the output shaft is centered to the gearbox index mark.  Over tightening the adjusting screw thinking that you are removing more play will put too much stress on the gears, wear internal parts and you will feel resistance in turning the wheel.

The idea is to tighten just enough to remove only gearbox play and no more.