Extreme Tire Wear-Blue Ox True Center Issue?

[LakeBob]

On the return leg of a 4K mile trip, I noticed my passenger steer tire was wearing badly from the outer edge inwards.   I dont have a TPMS and was checking tire pressures before every travel day, however I totally missed the wear on this tire as it progressed. 🤕   Will not do that again!  The driver side tire shows even, regular wear. 

The tires are Michelin XZA2, about 3 years old.  I also have a Blue Ox True Center Steering system installed on this coach. 

I was unable to find any new XZA2's in the country, was told they were being phased out, so I purchased a pair of the new generation Michelin X Coach ($2069.13 delivered, June 22 date codes-OUCH!) and am having them installed. 

Just wondered if anyone had any similar experience with one tire wearing significantly more quickly than the other steer tire and if there were any "know" issues?

Mechanically the shop has not found any smoking guns..........

Could the Blue Ox system cause this?  Seems to me that it would wear both sides if it were malfunctioning?

Will keep the group posted on what the alignment tells us.

Appreciate any insight!

 

 

 

[Mark Holt]

My experience with that type of wear on the outside shoulder would be that side is toad in. Only way to know for sure is alignment check and the adjustment for tow angle made.

[Tom Cherry]

Similar issue.  Different brand.  Background.  I have had a Blue Ox on the MH since 2010.  That was about 6K on the clock. I pulled off the OEM GY's in 2012.  I had 20 K on them.  Josam's did an alignment in 2010 also.  Front was OK.  Rear axle was out and they had to heat, quench and straighten.  SO, all was well.

When I pulled off the GY's there was absolutely NO Tire wear issues up front.  Put on Bridgestone's and ran them.  Around 55/57K, I noticed a severe issue on the BS. I had noticed a little bit of Outer Toe Wear on the RF.  Same as yours.  It was minor and I was going to rotate them after my 9K trip from NC to CA and then up the coast and back through Indiana.  I got as far as Salt Lake City. I was crossing the Bonneville salt flats and had the wheel turned a little to the outside.  WOW.  WHAT IS THIS...

I consulted with several members on the phone.  I also called Josams and talked to Barry.  He told me that I had, what he believed, was a BAD BS tire.  He had been seeing these in the past few months in their shop.  He also told me that he had never seen a Monaco front end "GO BAD" in under 100K.  He gave me the Toe In Specs and told me how to measure it.  YES, it is a LOT easier when you have the MH on a rack and can use lasers and also have the tires on rotating pads.  BUT, one of our members commented that he had routinely done Toe In measurements and that using a tape and being meticulous would suffice.  The Toe In wear is SUPPOSEDLY symetrical.  If you have the Toe In's out, you will see the same wear on the OPPOSITE side of the tire on the OPPOSITE wheel.  SO, I had NO wear on the Driver's side tire....on the outer rib on the INSIDE.  My wear was similar to your's......except yours is more widespread. I had lost maybe 1/4" of the outer rib in just 2,000 miles.  SO....I put on new tires.  I have around 8 - 10K on them....NO WEAR ISSUES.

I would check for wear on the inside of the DRIVERS SIDE (LEFT).  If there is wear then.....that is TOE END or TOE IN. .  Your wear is more widespread, where mine was specific and it turned out to be a defect in the tire....or SO we assumed.

I do NOT think that the Blue Ox would be causing this.  IF SO.....you should see it on BOTH tires....or that is MY OPINION or LOGIC...

You can call Barry at Josams or someone at Hendersons in Oregon.  They should be able to tell you the TOE IN amount.  It is the difference between measuring the tire on one side versus the other.  You get the wheels as "STRAIGHT" as you can on level Ground.  Then, you have an assistant run a tape to a KNOW or scribed (use a nail to scratch a line on the tire.  You want to have a line near the center of the tread as high as you can get it and still get the tape under the MH.  You do that on the FRONT and the REAR of each tire.  THEN, you measure.  The difference is the TOE IN (END).  I can't remember WHICH is supposed to be the shorter distance....the front or the rear.  BUT, as long as you are measuring from exactly the SAME point on either side of the tire to approximately the SAME points on the other....then the difference is what you are looking for....but you need to know which side is the longest.

There are folks here that might know that....but a good front end shop that works on MH's should have it.

[Guest Ray Davis]

13 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

I can't remember WHICH is supposed to be the shorter distance....the front or the rear

The rear measurement of the 2 front tires should be wider so the tires are toed in, hence the term toe in.  Toe in helps a vehicle maintain a straight-ahead attitude whereas toe out will cause all kinds of wandering issues.    Yes, I believe toe in will be the same on both sides, however if not done properly, on some vehicles you can end up with the steering wheel off center.

We used to raise both front wheels off the ground & spin the tires while marking a chalk line around the tire then measure the distance between the marked tires front & rear.

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

You are dealing with excessive positive or negative camber wear.  https://www.worldwidefaqs.com/what-causes-outside-tire-wear/

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Ray Davis said:

The rear measurement of the 2 front tires should be wider so the tires are toed in, hence the term toe in.  Toe in helps a vehicle maintain a straight-ahead attitude whereas toe out will cause all kinds of wandering issues.    Yes, I believe toe in will be the same on both sides, however if not done properly, on some vehicles you can end up with the steering wheel off center.

We used to raise both front wheels off the ground & spin the tires while marking a chalk line around the tire then measure the distance between the marked tires front & rear.

Thanks, 

Good tips.  Did not have jacks or a big jack.  My point....and Chuck chimed in.  IF it was Toe In, then it, per Barry and others, be OBVIOUS on the other tire....except on the opposite side.  If no issues with the other tire....then Chuck probably has hit on it.

Get it checked....and find a SHOP that understands how the TruCenter works.  They should also be able to verify the installation.  One of the things that is really important about the TruCenter is that the hardware be mounted with LOCTITE RED....so that it stays WHERE IT IS PUT....

Mine was.  No issues.  I had a bad tire....but your wear looks totally different....but this is how we all learn.

Thanks for the info on the Toe In and such, Ray.  Tried to find Barry's text with the difference....but it was NOT much....but easily measured.....and I did this at a CG with my wife helping....so it ain't a Rocket Science deal.

[Mark Holt]

My bad, I used the term toe and I meant Camber. Chuck B is correct.

[Ivan K]

I also agree that it looks like camber wear but it is strange to see it on the outside with a nonadjustable axle. Worn kingpin or bent axle end would cause a wear on the inside. It still could be a tire belt issue. I saw it on a passenger tire where one side of the tire was expanding and carrying all the load, it was pretty obvious from a frontal view.

BTW, camber is the easiest of the 3 to measure or at least compare with just a bubble level.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Ivan K

[Jdw12345]

A bad or poorly adjusted bearing can cause uneven tire wear also, not saying that’s your problem but sometimes people forget about a bad or mis-adjusted bearing. The Alinment shop that did all of my trks when I was in the trucking business told me years ago that a bit of toe in is acceptable due to the fact that the axle ends actually bow back due to the forces of just going down the road at speed.

FYI 

[ward_l_johnson]

Early this year on my 2008 Newmar Essex I discovered exactly the same extreme wear on the outer edge of the right steer axle tire as the OP described, AND with the same model XZA2 22.5x315 tires with a 2017 birthdate with about 60k miles on the tires by 2/2022.  The left front tire had no signs of any abnormal wear.  The front axle has a little over 17k lbs load fairly evenly distributed on both sides.  Also in 3/2022 I could not locate any new Michelin tires in my area but did end up with 2 new Yokohama’s.  I also contacted the MH chassis manufacturer, Spartan, in Charlotte, Michigan.  They examined the photos I send and they first diagnosed the issue as “rivering”.   Since it looked to me more like an alignment issue, probably camber, I took the MH up to Spartan in May and the factory did a full chassis inspection and alignment.  No worn chassis parts and only very minor alignment adjustments were needed.  To date I now have >12k miles on the Yokohama tires with absolutely no abnormal wear signs.  

[LakeBob]

Thank you all for the excellant feedback and discussion.  The shop finally got to the alignment of the front of the coach today and found the right front was over 1" toed in over spec. 

Caster and Camber were within spec, I didn't get all the numbers, will get back with a full report. 

The additional good/bad news was while replacing 9 airbags they cracked my windshield.   Good news, they will be replacing my windshield, with a vendor of my approval.  Any recommendations in the Kansas City or Saint Louis area?  They claim to have a vendor in Colombia that is familiar with RV windshields, will contact them tomorrow.  

Bad News:  I'm wondering what else may have been damaged due to the twisting.   Will inspect the tile flooring tomorrow (full tile coach-with heated floors) 

I'm concerned about the slides, this coach has three large hydraulic slides, any feedback on how to proceed to check their operation?

Ideas about other items to check?

Thanks all! 

 

[LakeBob]

On 10/26/2022 at 9:13 AM, ward_l_johnson said:

Early this year on my 2008 Newmar Essex I discovered exactly the same extreme wear on the outer edge of the right steer axle tire as the OP described, AND with the same model XZA2 22.5x315 tires with a 2017 birthdate with about 60k miles on the tires by 2/2022.  The left front tire had no signs of any abnormal wear.  The front axle has a little over 17k lbs load fairly evenly distributed on both sides.  Also in 3/2022 I could not locate any new Michelin tires in my area but did end up with 2 new Yokohama’s.  I also contacted the MH chassis manufacturer, Spartan, in Charlotte, Michigan.  They examined the photos I send and they first diagnosed the issue as “rivering”.   Since it looked to me more like an alignment issue, probably camber, I took the MH up to Spartan in May and the factory did a full chassis inspection and alignment.  No worn chassis parts and only very minor alignment adjustments were needed.  To date I now have >12k miles on the Yokohama tires with absolutely no abnormal wear signs.  

Did they ever determine the actual cause of tire wear?   Do they think it was a bad tire?  

Not familiar with "rivering" ?  What's this?

Thanks!

[ward_l_johnson]

Bob, the Michelin right steer axle tire was so badly worn on the outer edge, I went ahead and immediately (3/3022) replaced both steer axle tires as noted in my original post.  I was not able to get an appointment at the Spartan factory until late May 2022, and had not saved the bad Michelin tire, so Spartan never saw the worn tire, only the photos I had taken for them.  In any case the worn Michelin tire already had >60k miles and 5 years of service.  Spartan did document and provided me with the alignment measurements both before and after they made the adjustments.  We discussed the before/after measurements and all Spartan could say was that the miss-alignment was fairly minor, and would not have expected that miss-alignment to have caused the tire wear experienced.  
 

Google “rivering”, seems to mostly appear on free rolling lightly loaded tires.  Steer axle tires free roll, but in my case I have about 8500 lbs load on that tire (22.5x315 - rated 9090 lbs at rated pressure 130 psi, which is what I maintain on the steer axle).

So the mystery continues.

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

No mystery for me.  Different motor home manufacturer, different chassis manufacturer.