1995 Dynasty - Electrical Question- Individual receptacle breakers tripping?

[Tdkkart]

1995 Dynasty, in the main breaker panel in the bedroom there are 2 breakers, labeled :"front recept" and "rear recept". When connected to shore power these 2 breakers trip as soon as they are turned on. With the 50 amp main breaker turned off the breakers will stay turned on.

Problem #1, I can't find any receptacles that aren't powered even when these breakers are tripped off. 

Any ideas when these breakers control?

 

[Just Jim]

I had a 95 dynasty, but don't recall any labeling like that.  Does it look like original or you think perhaps a prior owner wired something in "special".  A picture might help.  Typically, it was the ground faults that would trip and not work.  Make sure you check the outlet in the basement to see if it has power and the outlet in the engine bay.  Seems really odd to have breakers that are off but no outlets anywhere that are not working.

[Tom Cherry]

16 minutes ago, Tdkkart said:

1995 Dynasty, in the main breaker panel in the bedroom there are 2 breakers, labeled :"front recept" and "rear recept". When connected to shore power these 2 breakers trip as soon as they are turned on. With the 50 amp main breaker turned off the breakers will stay turned on.

Problem #1, I can't find any receptacles that aren't powered even when these breakers are tripped off. 

Any ideas when these breakers control?

 

You need to look at your prints in the owner’s manual.  We have a copy of a 1996, which shows that it was also used in 1995. I attached the files for you.  The 13th or so print is the electrical….maybe 12 or 14.

You have a very unique system.  There are several “12 VDC” relays that actually switch the power to various receptacles.  The 50 Amp main is the INCOMING POWER for that panel.  So, wnen you turn OFF the main, you should have no power inside the motor home.  That is either from the shore or the generator.  When you are on the inverter, the inverter provides power as well, to these relays.  The original inverter appears NOT to have an internal Automatic Transfer Switch. There are two circuits, the front and rear outlets that go to these relays.  These relays are also connected to the output AC power from the Inverter.  Thus, when on SHORE, the relays use the power from the main panel.  When on Inverter, the relays use the power from the Inverter

A few years later, Monaco started using an inverter with an ATS inside it.  As long as you had incoming AC (shore or generator), that AC power actually went dirextly via the 30A breaker, to the Inverter.  Then the inverter would “pass through” the AC power to the receptacles.  In some cases, if there were shorted or dead batteries, the ATS would not pass or let the AC through….with other inverters, it didn’t matter.

The FIRST QUESTION…..are you the original owner?  If so, did you have issues before and had to have the inverter replaced?  If you are NOT the original owner then my following comments are logical or my best guess….

@Just Jim just posted as I type.  I “sorta” agree with him, but I would urge him to look at the electrical print, what you describe is exactly the way the factory shows the wiring.  He made have had a “transition” year when Monaco eliminated these “unusual” relays.  Bottom line….without going through your system and redrawing or confirming the prints, I am a bit in the dark.  BUT my gut is that someone replaced the or “rewired” the entire system.  

NOW, from a circuit or electrical safety standpoint, if I or a RV tech had done this, we would disconnected the lines (power) going out from the two breakers marked Front and Rear.  Disconnected the Romex, wire nutted them off and labeled the two breakers as UNUSED. That would have eliminated all these relays.  Then the inverter would have also “bypassed” these relays and provided power to the various outlets. Next up, pull out the relays.  There would be 2 (Front and Rear) pieces of Romex….which had been disconnected.  Wire nut them off and label unused from Front CB and unused from Rear CB.  Then connected the two inverter circuits to the outputs of all the relays….marking the INCOMING Inverter power and the correct or the print’s definition of which relay.  That would have made it easier for any person to follow.  I would also have redlined your print with the revisions.

Having said all that and looked at the prints….I have another QUESTION for you.  

There is SUPPOSED to be two GFCI receptacles….one in the rear and one in the front.  You need to look for these.  ARE THE STILL INSTALLED?  If they are there, GREAT….if the “person” who made all the changes decided to “wire it like he wanted to”, then you have a serious problem.  These GFCI are there to protect you from harm….just like in your home…as ARE or have been required since maybe the early 80’s or so….this is IMPORTANT 

FINAL QUESTION.  If you leave the TWO breakers OFF….does everything when on Shore or Genny or Inverter WORK???  If so….then my suggestion is….

If you have the original GFCI, them, the ODDS ARE….they are old and grumpy.  They need to be replaced with 2 NEW ones.  They are 20 Amps.  Only use the Eaton Wiring Devices or Hubbell or Leviton brands.  These are approved and have been field tested for use with an inverter.  I would change them out due to the fact that they are old and unreliable.

IF they were removed, then a qualified electrician or an RV Tech needs to find where (what receptacle location) they were removed from and install as above.

As to what is going on….IF, after you replace the Two GFCI’s everything works….then mark the front snd rear receptacle breakers as UNUSED.  I really can’t tell you WHY they were not properly abandoned….nor why they trip.  Tripping means there is a DEAD SHORT….which is totally a safety issue.  They need to be disconnectd from the system (pulling off the black wire and unhooking the white and ground….and then wire nutted to be safe and labeled.  Then mark the two breakers as UNUSED…

That’s the best I can do….based on what your said and the original prints….

Let us know what you do and how it is resolved.

1996%20Monaco%20Dynasty%2040%20ft%20Baron%20IV%20FD%20Wiring%20Diagrams.pdf

[BradHend]

@Frank McElroy How and where does one go to obtain these wiring diagrams for their coach? Would love a hard copy to keep on board but I don’t see my coach listed in the downloads. 

[Just Jim]

Tom, on my 95 there was a transfer switch right next to the main breaker coming in.  The genny was dominant.  If it was running, then the shore power was not used.  Again, photos would help to know what is actually there.  Also, on mine, there were three ground faults.... so the 96 diagrams may not be exact.  I never could find diagrams for the 95. 

[Dr4Film]

Lots of confusing information and lack of information in the OP's post. Especially THIS statement, "Problem #1, I can't find any receptacles that aren't powered even when these breakers are tripped off."

Photo of the Main Circuit Breaker Panel and descriptions is a good place to start.

The only statement that does make sense is "With the 50 amp main breaker turned off the breakers will stay turned on." That's because there is no power going into the Main Circuit Breaker Panel with the main turn off.

My guess is that the two GFI circuit breakers are wired incorrectly or someone has gotten into the main panel and did some major rewiring.

[Tom Cherry]

31 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Tom, on my 95 there was a transfer switch right next to the main breaker coming in.  The genny was dominant.  If it was running, then the shore power was not used.  Again, photos would help to know what is actually there.  Also, on mine, there were three ground faults.... so the 96 diagrams may not be exact.  I never could find diagrams for the 95. 

@Tdkkart  Can you POST some Photos?  

Jim,

Look at the drawings below  It is labeled as 1996, but if you look at the release date, it covered 1995 as well...maybe a bit further back. I have NOT seen or had to help folks on the earlier Dynasties.  If you follow the power (circuit) from the two Front and Rear Receptacles, they go to a "maze" of Relays.  They are all 12 VDC controlled.  If you look at the OTHER side of the relays, that is incoming power from the Inverter.  

Again, NOT knowing exactly how, these relays are all, seemingly "independent" as each one controls or supplies power to various devices....  What you are describing as an ATS, maybe be the relays.

YES....there WERE Three (3) GFCI's.  I wrote my response using my iPad and just downloaded the entire file to my laptop and printed out the "Electric Panel" file....so I could read it.  

Bottom line, my gut feel is STILL the same.  When @Just Jim turns on the breakers and they Trip, then SOMETHING is amiss.  In that there has to be a DEAD SHORT somewhere.  

He did NOT say if this was just a recent thing....or if he was experimenting and found it.  IF it is a recent occurrence, then that ATS (relays?) sounds like it has "GONE SOUTH".  I have never, as my experience is with the more conventional ATS inside an Inverter, seen this.  Others like you may be more knowledgeable.

BUT...if it is a recent occurrence and the "ATS" or the relays are bad or such, I don't have much of a clue...  NOW, If he does NOT have the Freedom 20 Inverter and someone has installed a more recent or newer model (would need model and brand to verify) and it HAS an internal ATS with the mid 2000's and on up used, I would have a tech PROPERLY abandoned the ATS and wire it directly using the print to distribute the circuits.  You could use the Terminal Strips inside the ATS and make it easy.

When you said "ATS" I did NOT fully understand which ATS (assuming the relays that I looked at...all in an enclosure) you were referring to.  There IS a conventional Shore/Genny ESCO ATS (65N) called out on the print. That is USUALLY in a bay.  NOW, if there is ANOTHER ATS (beside the Main Panel), then it must contain the relays. 

YES....this is puzzling.... @Dr4Film posted the same thoughts, I think.  

All I know is that the Dynasty does NOT have a conventional method of distributing the incoming AC via an onboard ATS in the Inverter.

NOW.... @Tdkkart

Please clarify the following.....as this plot is thickening...

1. Was the Breakers Tripping a NEW thing or has it always been that way before?
2. Are you the ORIGINAL OWNER?
3. Do you still have the Original Freedom 20 Inverter? if NO, what brand and model do you have....POST A PICTURE
4. Do you still have the Original ESCO 65N ATS? if NO...what ATS brand and model do you have...POST A PICTURE
5. IS EVERYTHING (all the OUTLETS) Working on SHORE/Genny or on Inverter like they should?
6. Do you have all the THREE (3) GFCI's called out on the prints?  If you can't find them...then someone has probably "rewired" the MH....UGLY and Dangerous.

I THINK that is about it.  My gut, looking at the prints and Jim's comments still stand...but until Tom K. responds with more info, pictures and such....we are just spinning our wheels....and more guessing, unless someone has owned the same (1996 or 1995) and followed and traced the circuits or rewired them....then....it is an exercise in futility....  IF someone has or had their Dynasty revised or such...that would be great info....

Thanks....  

 

 

Main Breaker and Inverter and Relays -ATS - Drawing - 1996 Dynasty.pdf 1996 Dynasty Receptacle and Main Panel Layout - ESCO 65N MAIN ATS.pdf

[Just Jim]

I agree.... until we get some feedback it is pretty futile.  However, it was a ATS that was housed in its own box next to the main breaker box.  All of the relays, isolator, solenoids, etc. were just mounted on the main I beam beside the engine.  Not sure why it was not in a run box, because it certainly got very dirty, etc.  It was always a source of trouble and I constantly would check all the connections, etc. as the electrical gremlins loved to play.  That was just how mine was... I was the second owner and I'm positive the first didn't change anything.  Hopefully, we will get some info from the OP.

[96 EVO]

5 hours ago, Tdkkart said:

1995 Dynasty, in the main breaker panel in the bedroom there are 2 breakers, labeled :"front recept" and "rear recept". When connected to shore power these 2 breakers trip as soon as they are turned on. With the 50 amp main breaker turned off the breakers will stay turned on.

Problem #1, I can't find any receptacles that aren't powered even when these breakers are tripped off. 

Any ideas when these breakers control?

 

On my coach, it would be the two bedside receptacles! *And probably the receptacle under the bed, that powers the air mattress pump.*

They don't go thru the inverter.

Edited July 2, 2023 by 96 EVO

[Tdkkart]

Okay, some answers to the questions I generated:

1. I am not the original owner, bought this coach this past Tuesday, and from what I can figure, I am owner number 4.  Owner #1 was from 1995 to 2008, #2 was from 2008 to approx. 2021, #3 from 2021 to this week. Lots of records from the first 2 owners, looks like things were reasonably well taken care of, and few modifications were done between then and now. IF anything was replaced it was replaced the same as OEM. Previous owner to me did little to nothing, including NOT doing most of what he told me he had, the more I looked and talked to him, the further apart the ends of the string got.

This coach "checked all the boxes" of what we had in mind for a coach, Excellent manufacturer, correct vintage, correct engine, no slides etc ec. We wanted a good solid coach without all the late model bells and whistles.

The price was right enough that I committed the cardinal sin and did not have a professional inspection sheet filled out, I checked that most of the primary systems were in reasonable condition and drove it home.

2. I have nearly 40 years of experience in electronics and mechanical repair and troubleshooting. The first 1/2 of my career was testing and troubleshooting nearly every part of the instrumentation and flight control systems of Boeing airliners. Open the cockpit door of nearly every model Boeing airline built between 1985 and present, I've worked on just about everything you'll see in cockpit, and a large portion of what's in the electronics bay below. The 2nd half of my career has been in maintenance and troubleshooting of all the equipment and process used to build the above electronics. I tell people I fix everything from electric pencil sharpeners to CNC machine tools. 

Hence, there's very little in the sub-systems of this coach that I'm unfamiliar with or afraid to work with, however..........One of the major things I have learned in this career is that prior to just diving in, CONSULT THE EXPERTS, the people that you can identify as having direct experience in what you're about to attempt. most of the time this will save you a lot of time and frustration.

SO HERE I AM, and with the diagrams and schematics I;ve been presented with here, I have a pretty good idea of where my problem is gonna be.

 3. Inverter is either original, or if it has been replaced it was replaced with the same Freedom 20 that was there originally installed, same with the main transfer switch controlling shore power vs generator.

4. Yes, I have all the original GFCIs, or at least still have GFCIs in all the original positions.

So, taking a look at the schematics provided by Mr Cherry, THANK YOU very much Tom,  I have a real suspicion that the top 2 relays in the box beside the breaker panel are not switching, so they are getting full time power from the inverter, AND when the 2 breakers in question are turned on, relays are being fed from 2 sources, which shows up as a short, tripping the breakers.

It may be a bit of time before I get back with a resolution to this issue, I'm headed out to finish rebuilding the front door step(DON'T cover your step with carpet, it holds moisture and turns your step into rust flavored swiss cheese), and finish putting the dash back together after replacing the blower fan and it's resistor, which was a grand task.

THANK YOU all for your assistance, I'm sure I'll be back with more issues.

 

[Just Jim]

I wish I still had my 95 and could look inside the transfer switch box to compare for you.  It has been several years since I had it open, but yours does not look like what I remember.  I don't think mine had all those wire nuts with electrical tape in there.  I just remember it being more clean and orderly.  At one time, I thought I had an issue with it and so I had the cover off and began tracing wires down, but like I said.... its been a while and my memory has faded. 

Like you mentioned, I do believe your issue is in the transfer switch area as it really does not look original.  If you have outlets that are working when the breakers are off, then it is pretty obvious someone has basically bypassed the transfer switch and wire nutted some of those circuits together.  With your experience I'm sure you can diagnose the schematics.

 

 

 

 

[Dr4Film]

@Just Jim

@Tdkkart

That is what I suggested in my post above. Someone has done some major rewiring by the looks of that box.

Having only one GFI circuit breaker in the main box (washer/dryer -why??) means that most likely the coach has some GFI outlets protecting the two vulnerable areas of the coach, the kitchen and bathrooms where they are most certainly needed.

[Tom Cherry]

Tom K.  Thanks for that response.  We (I) never know or assume the electrical/electronics aptitude of a poster unless dealt with before.

OK….since you were so complimentary, here is a real THANK YOU.

https://www.nwtfc.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Freedom_combie_Owner_manual.pdf

I just got curious….and found this.  It answered my questions.  Meanwhile, @Frank McElroy, I don’t believe we have this in the files….if not, please add it.  OK…now, my observations as well as opinions….and all the 95/96 owners or previous owners can chime in?  

First Tom K.  Please verify at your convenience, verify my gut feel….as well as the prints.  You have a conventional (Upstream) ATS…if original, it will have a 65N at the end of the PN.  Built like a tank and parts are still available for repairs.  It doe have a flaw.  Being 120 coils, it buzzes or hums….but it was the mainstay until ESCO Bought the LYGHT design and they now recommend it as it is DC coils.  

Next up…I scanned the Freedom manual.  I also looked at the start up as well as the specs. First, Monaco overprotected it.  Should have been a 25 Amp, but minor. HOWEVER…that did start to bring into focus why you may have the nightmare of relays.

Next, if you have the Freedom 20D, it DOES have 2 AC outputs.  In the later years, Monaco and others chose to run one circuit to the microwave and dedicate it.  I will leave it to your print chasing and “highlighting” to see how many “devices” are fed off one single AC Out line.  Then, Monaco ran everything else on the Other circuit….usually directly into a single GFCI….and then daisy chained every downstream “near water” outlet.  I had NOT seen the design where there were TWO AC receptacle breakers…so I LEARN.

OK…so we are on the same page.  This Freedom inverters also have an INTERNAL ATS.  So, it WAS designed to be used in a conventional manner.  However, the electronic gurus at Monaco sort of outdid themselves….or in my opinion.  If you have the 20D with 2 AC outputs (three pin breakers….25 or 30 A on input) and 15 or 20 on each output.  NOW as I ponder on it, maybe the Monaco Logic is slowly rising.  

You have a 20(D?).  At the PROPER 25 A circuit breaker, the Inverter has the capacity or rated AC pass through output of 3,000 Watts.  The inverter section will provide 2000watts of inverted power.  Monaco MAY have been concerned about the number of circuits and diversity of the loads.  Later when they went to the standard Magnum, it was a 3600/2000 where the Freedom is a 3000/2000.  So, the way they “boosted” the output or gave the coach’s interior MORE power was to run to separate breakers.  Each 20 Amps.  Magnum does that.  They have a 30 A in and TWO 20 A out.  They cheat a little and bump up the theoretical output yo 4000….watts…through the internal ATS…where your ATS is probably rated at 3000 watts.  It is beginning to clear in my brain.

Next UP….a little TIP for you to check out.  There is a major design flaw when Monaco went to the Magnum, 2 AC circuits, directly to the GFCI.  As the icemaker’s heater coil (so the ice will come out) and any defrosting coils inside the  box or the AC Heaters (when not on propane)…the older the “heaters”, the more prone to LEAKAGE.  Monaco ran the icemakers directly off the GFCI and it has driven folks here crazy.  Some MH can be simply “rewired” where there is a dedicated circuit or branch circuit to icemaker.  Bingo…you move the icemaker from the LOAD side of the GFCI to the line.  PAY ATTENTION to how the heaters on a gas refrigerator are wired.  If you have a residential or intend to install one (Norcolds have been recalled and are dangerous), then make sure the main power to the residential does NOT go through a GFCI.

I am beginning to understand Monaco’s logic…so if you can fix or replace 2 bad relays and the rest “WORK LIKE THE PRINT”, then leaving it AS IS would be best,  IF you ever need a replacement inverter, then the Pure Sinewave Magnum MS2000 or the MS2800 would work and you could bypass all the relays a s wire it like the present MH’s.

Hope this is clear….

In order for you to have enough power, they fed the relays a pure 20 A line….so, in theory, you have TWO lines.   Or 40 A or 4800 watts.  BINGO…. That is probably the answer as to why the exotic diode bridged  relays….

NOTE….if the relays have internal diodes to PREVENT backfeeding….then bingo….that may be your issue.  I might google the relays and see how they work.  I can’t fathom why a relay would need a diode matrix, UNLESS it was to prevent backfeeding.  THAT MAY BE IT. If so, based on your skill set, you can probably troubleshoot and find common diodes and actually repair the existing two.  Now THAT is all based on my supposition that Monaco wanted you to have MORE power for the MH but the Freedom was too small….due to the 25 A limiting incoming power…

GOOD LUCK