OEM tank gauges are giving up the ghost?

[1nolaguy]

I had thought my OEM tank monitors/meters were working fine but then apparently they are not. In our bedroom is a panel that houses the original A/C - heat control, the battery monitor, the water pump anf HWH switches and the tank monitors for fresh, grey, black water and LP. First the 5 buttom climate control quit and I thought that was because the A/C's were replaced. When I replaced the inverter/converter I installed a new remote but that never seemed to work correctly. I bought an Apeka LP tank monitor with BT and after install I thought it was defective because it read empty even though the LP monitor showed the tank at 80%, however when the HWH quit and I replaced everything but the tank it would still not ignite and when I double checked the LP by trying to light the stove I realized the tank was in fact empty. Well that may also explain why the fridge will not cool on LP. Having dumped and thoroughly flushed both the black and grey tanks the black reads empty but the grey reads full.

At this point the only thing in the panel that might still be working is the switches for the water pump and maybe the ones for the HW; at least they still light up.

So here are the questions:

With the Apeka monitor I really do not need LP, but should I possibly put and analogue gauge at the tank? Also should I replace the electronic valve at the tank with a manual one?

2) At this point should I consider just just replacing the whole panel in the bedroom?

3) Is there an alternative to the tank monitoring system in the panel that may be BT? I have heard of See level but am not sure what is involved with installing it.

BTW - Does anyone know the tank dimensions of the tanks in a 2005 Safari Cheetah or similar Monaco Diplomat?

[Ivan K]

I can only comment on your #3. SeeLevel install is easy if you have access to full hight side of the tanks to stick the self-adhesive sensors on them. The beauty is that all the tank sensors connect to a single 2 wire run to the monitor. Works great for me, Bluetooth or not, same install.

[1nolaguy]

I read a few blogs, including one by RVGeeks that describe process and it sounds pretty straight forward. The one thing that seems a bit confusing is the connection of "all" wires to single two connections. I can see a common ground but if the "positive" leads are all connected to one wire how does the panel differentiate for display? Anyway, I am sure that is explained in the install instructions that come with the kit.

[Ivan K]

16 minutes ago, 1nolaguy said:

I read a few blogs, including one by RVGeeks that describe process and it sounds pretty straight forward. The one thing that seems a bit confusing is the connection of "all" wires to single two connections. I can see a common ground but if the "positive" leads are all connected to one wire how does the panel differentiate for display? Anyway, I am sure that is explained in the install instructions that come with the kit.

It is using addressing protocol so it knows which reading is from which sensor. It just works, no worries. 

[Rocketman3]

I also put sea level on my 2000Dynasty.  
I added a display panel in my wet bay. Let’s me know how close to full the water is getting- it is great.

it uses 3 & 4% for the changes - for example 74%, 77%, then 81%. I have had it for about 2 years - works great.

 

here are the pictures- showing the stick on sensors  and my main gauges. I had a little wood spacer made to make it look good.

 

Good Luck

[Tom Cherry]

13 hours ago, 1nolaguy said:

I had thought my OEM tank monitors/meters were working fine but then apparently they are not. In our bedroom is a panel that houses the original A/C - heat control, the battery monitor, the water pump anf HWH switches and the tank monitors for fresh, grey, black water and LP. First the 5 buttom climate control quit and I thought that was because the A/C's were replaced. When I replaced the inverter/converter I installed a new remote but that never seemed to work correctly. I bought an Apeka LP tank monitor with BT and after install I thought it was defective because it read empty even though the LP monitor showed the tank at 80%, however when the HWH quit and I replaced everything but the tank it would still not ignite and when I double checked the LP by trying to light the stove I realized the tank was in fact empty. Well that may also explain why the fridge will not cool on LP. Having dumped and thoroughly flushed both the black and grey tanks the black reads empty but the grey reads full.

At this point the only thing in the panel that might still be working is the switches for the water pump and maybe the ones for the HW; at least they still light up.

So here are the questions:

With the Apeka monitor I really do not need LP, but should I possibly put and analogue gauge at the tank? Also should I replace the electronic valve at the tank with a manual one?

2) At this point should I consider just just replacing the whole panel in the bedroom?

3) Is there an alternative to the tank monitoring system in the panel that may be BT? I have heard of See level but am not sure what is involved with installing it.

BTW - Does anyone know the tank dimensions of the tanks in a 2005 Safari Cheetah or similar Monaco Diplomat?

From the top.  Your Cheetah may or may not be like many models that folks have….and without a picture, visualization is difficult.  Here is how MOST Monacos were assembled.

Monaco had a custom “control panel” made for most coaches.  Big black rascal….there were gobs of switches and meters and remotes and such.  They were as varied as the planets. Without a picture….hard to describe or compare to yours..BUT.

IF you have a “black panel” and when you push the “MONITOR” switch and then there are leds INSIDE or UNDER the cover and you see the black, gray, fresh, LP and “battery” status lights…then that is a custom panel.  NO idea who made them.  Now if you also have a small meter or LED, say in the wet bay, then you have what most of us have.  DUAL REMOTES. That is like having two phones on a single home line…except….you can not, per Monaco use one if someone is using the other.  They have FEEDBACK.  Monaco installed a special DIODE areay (to prevent feedback).  So when you apply power or push the button, it only supplies power to THAT monitor and not the other.  One or the other.  Monaco was stupid.  The diodes were meant to be in ONE harness or one side.  So you only had one set.  But they made the tank harness with them…or without them.  Same deal on the monitor harness…some had diodes…some NOT.  But you had to have one in either.  They put NON DIODES in MH they put TWO DIODES in MH.  The correct way was a Diode array in either the Tank or the remotes harnesses.  Many folks had issues.

NOW, if you have such a panel….then the rest of it has NO electronics inside it.  It is just a FACEPLATE to mount the Inverter remote, the EMS (load shedding) remote, the 5 button thermostat.  So, the thermostat fails…it is just “snapped on” to a screwed on mounting plate…you THEN  replace it….same for the inverter remote..  snaps on to a base….

NOW…comes the really tricky part.  Some folks have shown an upgrade.  See level.  Often times they will use the same wiring harnesses, but the old monitor or the one UNDER the faceplate is no longer powered.  Many use a mount and cover up the old one.

Your TANK sensors are based on FOUR probes or electrodes “sticking” inside each tank.  Hole is drilled…sealed and wire attached.  Bottom one is a COMMON.  12 VDC goes to the common.  The fluid inside the tank is conductive.  If it is below the first one up or above the commom, the empty light is on….at the top…all three lights will be on.  Propane is different.  Your gauge probably had a 2 wire connector.  Think of it as a radio volume.  When you turn it down…more resistance and lower volume…turn it up…louder.  That volume or rheostat then turns on the same light array as the tanks.  If it messes up, then the LP remotes don’t work,  a common issue.  A OEM snap on cover or plastic face is on the gauge and you order a new one from iAmazon for $50.  Folks complain because it has two bare wires…and they do not have the skill set to strip and crimp a connector…or even use a wire nut.  Voltage or battery condition is the same principle.

If you post s picture, that would help…but this is how it  is.  Finding a main panel with the same leds and harness is probably not feasible as the company has changes the design…so, you abandon the Black, Gray, Fresh, LP and Battery section.  Buy a new aftermarket one and double stick tape it over the old one.  The other remotes or thermostat or whatever are all just lights and switches and you replace burned out bulbs or bad switches.

That’s it.

 

[1nolaguy]

Tom, Thanks for the details. I am not in a position to post a photo now but will asap. By description I think I have the former: A large black panel measuring about 12" wide and 24" or more in length, held in place by a series of screws. The EMS / power shed, gray, black, fresh water and LP monitors are a built in series of LED lights (green, amber and red) controlled by a spring loaded switch you have to hold on for the monitor to activate. There is also rocker switches to energize the water pump and (2) for 120 and 12v for HWH. Lastly the 5 button air control is inset and the Inverter/converter remote is screwed on. All in all a daunting panel that serves as a night light on steroids since it faces the bed. Behind this is a mass of wires.

I replaced the OEM Penguin IIs with RecPro heat pumps that have internal thermostats with remote and the 5 button no longer controls the furnace so that is not needed. The EMS/load sheding system seems to still be working.  I am hoping the tank monitors are not two way as there is not a secondary monitor/display at the wet bay or elsewhere. If that is the case I can probably just use the wiring and use a See Level system to replace the OEM. The I/C remote is just help on with 4 screws. Based on all of this I may just replace the entire black panel. Not sure how important the EMS monitoring is as it basically duplicates the info provided by the I/C remote.

Looks like this is going to be a project.

[cbr046]

11 hours ago, 1nolaguy said:

I replaced the OEM Penguin IIs with RecPro heat pumps that have internal thermostats with remote and the 5 button no longer controls the furnace so that is not needed.

The only issue with that is controlling the AC with the temp inside the AC unit, not inside the room.  It won't reflect the true temp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aJhl2xi8z8&t=119s

Forget the 24 min video and go to 18:32 where he discovers the temp sensor (Furion in this case) is inside the AC unit, not at the thermostat (MicroAir in this cas) as he had assumed (ass-u-me yeah, yeah).  My answer would be to run an extension on the temp sensor somewhere remote from the AC unit (like Monaco does). 

- bob

[Tom Cherry]

15 hours ago, 1nolaguy said:

Tom, Thanks for the details. I am not in a position to post a photo now but will asap. By description I think I have the former: A large black panel measuring about 12" wide and 24" or more in length, held in place by a series of screws. The EMS / power shed, gray, black, fresh water and LP monitors are a built in series of LED lights (green, amber and red) controlled by a spring loaded switch you have to hold on for the monitor to activate. There is also rocker switches to energize the water pump and (2) for 120 and 12v for HWH. Lastly the 5 button air control is inset and the Inverter/converter remote is screwed on. All in all a daunting panel that serves as a night light on steroids since it faces the bed. Behind this is a mass of wires.

I replaced the OEM Penguin IIs with RecPro heat pumps that have internal thermostats with remote and the 5 button no longer controls the furnace so that is not needed. The EMS/load sheding system seems to still be working.  I am hoping the tank monitors are not two way as there is not a secondary monitor/display at the wet bay or elsewhere. If that is the case I can probably just use the wiring and use a See Level system to replace the OEM. The I/C remote is just help on with 4 screws. Based on all of this I may just replace the entire black panel. Not sure how important the EMS monitoring is as it basically duplicates the info provided by the I/C remote.

Looks like this is going to be a project.

FIRST…odds are….you have the same panel.  Little bit of electronics or LED lights under or embedded.  There is a wiring harness behind it with a “wire” to each individual sensor on the tanks and one to the LP and one to the House battery.  NOT familiar with SEELEVEL install.  Download the manual.  Maybe they include an adapter or LED system compatible with the LP & Battery.  If NOT…then use a volt meter (double stick tape) over the Tank section.  Then you MIGHT have to resort to a different LP monitoring system.  
 

You need to read your manual.  The EMS is managing the 120 VAC loading.  The EMS remote serves 2 purposes, it tells you what is going and and the loads.  BUT, it is DUMB…except the 20/30 amp selector switch or button is CRITICAL if younuse a 20 amp shore adapter.  Do NOT abandon it.  Trust me….

The I/C (Inverter/Charger) has nothing to do with or is not connected to the energy management system (EMS).  You need both.  Personally, I have the skill set to remove and duplicate the panel, but getting all the switches and making “perfect rectangular” holes takes a special “electrical panel hole puncher— $$”.  I have had my panel off a few times and unplugged or made changes.  Mass of wires is daunting and you need to identify what is what and be careful in attaching wires to extend all the connections.  OPPS….some are PHONE lines.  You can easily add a dual inline (2 female) connector and use a new phone line to run the remotes elsewhere.  That assumes you understand the difference between a “phone line” cord and a data cable and whether there is a “twisted” pair.  A nightmare….

YES…if you have separate thermostats for your RecPro and they are wired to also control the furnace….some folks have 2…so they need TWO new Tsats….then of course the 5 Button is not needed.  Folks have installed battery powered or 12 VDC powered digital clocks to cover that section. I fully understand “night light…light pollution”.  Maybe leaving the panel where is, as is and putting the SeeLevel gauges there or mounting them in a more convenient area….then getting a small “black” pull down window shade for sleeping comfort might be a less daunting task that a total rewire…

Your call….yes THAT is how it works….pull your prints and NEVER make a change without verifying….

 

[1nolaguy]

7 hours ago, cbr046 said:

The only issue with that is controlling the AC with the temp inside the AC unit, not inside the room.  It won't reflect the true temp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aJhl2xi8z8&t=119s

Forget the 24 min video and go to 18:32 where he discovers the temp sensor (Furion in this case) is inside the AC unit, not at the thermostat (MicroAir in this cas) as he had assumed (ass-u-me yeah, yeah).  My answer would be to run an extension on the temp sensor somewhere remote from the AC unit (like Monaco does). 

- bob

Yep Bob, I learned this the hard way, after buying and installing the Recpros. Now trying how to Mcgiever  the temp sensor in the unit using the existing wiring from the previous Penguin. Units.

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, 1nolaguy said:

Yep Bob, I learned this the hard way, after buying and installing the Recpros. Now trying how to Mcgiever  the temp sensor in the unit using the existing wiring from the previous Penguin. Units.

I am not going to make but a GUESS as to the McGiver skills.  I was, often when I pulled out my Swiss Army knife to "assist in an unauthorized repair or entry into a CLOSED plastic container, KIDDED and called McGiver, Jr.  NOW I am also using this comment in this topic or nuance to once again inform members of the technical expertise involved to make the RecPro's work....as well as the "MicroAire" thermostat's working and limitations....so here goes.

Microaire is NOT a thermostat like the common Coleman or such.  Those thermostats send our a separate 12 VDC signal to activate the Compressor, fan, etc...as well as the furnace.  The Furnaces or the Aquahots in the Monacos do NOT WORK THAT WAY.  They require a simple CONTACT Clouse...like turning on a LIGHT switch.  When you set the FURNACE DIP switch on each control module on the Dometic (previously called DuoTherm...I think). This is the concept or the wiring of the 4 button or 5 button or even the NEWER style 10/12 CC2 thermostats.  The "signal" or instructions from the 4/5/10-12 OR the Microaire replacement is the same.  It is a Multiplexed signal on a single pair of wires inside the 4 wire (2 pair) communication cable. The OTHER two wires are DC power from each (they are in parallel, so to speak) to the Thermostat....and there is NO separate 12 VDC line to the thermostat.

OK....if the OLD 4 or 5 button thermostat was gutted and each control module (top side - 15KBTU and in the plenum - 13.5K) was removed, then the Microaire WILL NOT control the furnace.  In addition, the Temp Sensor or the remote for a "Rear" unit was plugged in and MAY be proprietary for the Dometic Control Unit. ONCE AGAIN....Microaire does NOT know or the tech support folks DO NOT know how the Dometic Penguins work.  All THEY know is that you have to have a FUNCTIONAL system for the OLD Dometics, for the replacement digital and BT thermostat to work.  Microaire had NO input for a Temp sensor.  The Remote Temp sensor goes to the Control module in the area or room where that remote lives.  IF the control modules were removed or gutted, they MUST be replaced and rewired as before to have a functional system for HEAT ONLY....and each control unit sends out a CLOSED CONTACT signal to the Furnace.  There is NOT any other signal for "furnace fan" on....only HEAT.  Same way for the Aquahot units....therefore the Microaire is will work with a Furnace(s) or an Aquahot.

The ONLY way to control a furnace is to run a two wire pair to a remote thermostat, presumably, on the wall.  They will NOT work with the standard Coleman RV thermostats as they send out a PURE 12 VDC system.  SO, you would need a 12 VDC powered thermostat and then a Bosch relay.  When the Heat signal (12 VDC) is sent, it closes the Bosch and the contacts on the Bosch are on the "wires" to the Furnace.  Honeywell make a LINE VOLTAGE (for 220 VAC Baseboard heaters) that has an OFF setting.  These are cheaper than buying a Coleman and the relay...NOT to mention they do NOT require 12 VDC power to be run to the Thermostat.  When the contacts mechanically CLOSE on the Honewell, then that closes a switch.  It was rated for 220 Vac...BUT it will also close on the two smaller gauge control wires to the Furnace.  AND you can also TURN IT OFF.  Many of the Line Voltage thermostats do NOT have an ON/Off click or setting...

That is what I have learned and read and researched and discussed with Coleman, Microaire and Dometic.  Controlling a furnace with a RecPro requires leaving in the ORIGINAL Dometic control modules and 12 VDC and the interconnecting data cables...that will work with the old 4 or 5 or Microaire.  Microaire does NOT make (or at least when I talked to them a few months ago) a combo MPX (Dometic signal) thermostat with a Remote Temp sensor input nor a "close this contact" terminal for heat.

[SkyKingII]

In response to your OEM-Tank Monitoring System I have a 2004 40' Diplomat PDQ that I purchased with 9k miles on it from Private party in 2006.After 3-4 years of messing with replacing sensors and never really knowing the true accuracy of any tank I did a bunch of research and went with SeeLevel II Tank Monitoring system.I was still working fulltime and didn't have time to do myself so had it installed by a very reliable,qualified RV Repair Shop here in Glendale ,Az. I would definitely suggest you add a monitor to your Wet-Bay when you install. I find it worth every cent I had to pay for it ...very convienient when servicing tanks,saves alot of steps to see where guage is while either flushing tanks or adding fresh water.These gauges have been in service for going on 14 years and absolutely no problems what so ever! Quality product I remember saying after I had installed ",Should have put them in sooner." There is nothing any more comforting than walking up to that Monitor,hitting the button and knowing exactly where the Blackwater tank level is...especially when dry camping etc! FWIW...if you are at all handy around your bus you could easily install it yourself,the install manual and their help line is very good.A good friend of mine who we travel quite abit with after several years of screwing with the gauges on his 03 Executive upgraded to the same system ...same comments after,"Wished he'd done it sooner." It's one of those upgrades you'll never regret making. I have never understood why a company like Monaco didn't make this system standard...I mean it isn't like Monaco was an" EntryLevel Coach,"they were proud of what they charged,they perfected charging for options, I may be wrong but I don't recall back in the day seeing this option being available @Monaco.The other thing I wanted to mention that I was thrilled about the install...They were able to use same wiring to the Inside monitor with little modifications,and did a beautiful job with cutting the hole where original switches/buttons were and mounted SeeLevel right to existing panel,you cannot tell it wasn't factory!! Win-Win for me.Good Luck on your install!

Bruce E>Crocker

2004 Diplomat 40'PDQ

2004Diplomat40'PDQ