2002 Windsor - Freedom 458 Inverter issues? Help.

[Warden]

Freedom 458 , does anyone know if this unit switches neutral internally ?   Unit ceased working 3 days ago … batteries went dead … new batteries … everything seemed fine , batt charge  and invert fail in spite of no fault lights and panel looking and acting fine  ,  i pulled and verified both internal .250 fuses were fine !  Seemed to have a bad gfi receptacle i also replaced in coach … Fast forward after 2 full days iso of An issue .. i found if i jump or join neutrals at the bus bar in the coach fuse panel then unit charges and inverts fine with no issues  other then i know better and im in fear of a neutral feed back on 220 !  So do these switch neutral internally or am i really just searching for an open on neutral wire ? I toned all the wires every which way  i may have missed something and i dont know AC at all  i know DC  some  thank you for any help … ready to travel this week and  …. Not ready yet !  T

[tmw188]

You can look up and call PCS Electronics in Columbia MO if you need answers fast and from one source. I believe they have some videos on YouTube also. Good luck keep the post updated for us.

[waterskier_1]

Yes.  Most do.  To meet code, there can only be one place that neutral & ground are bonded together, and that is at the entrance.  So, when on shore power the neutral form the shore power connection back to the entrance must be maintained (no grounding in the inverter). But when operating as an inverter, it now becomes the "source" and the neutral is grounded within the inverter.  This is a general statement, and not directed at your specific inverter, but I'd be surprised if it didn't function the same.  If it didn't, GFCI's wouldn't work when on the inverting mode. 

  - Rick N 

[Tom Cherry]

9 hours ago, Warden said:

Freedom 458 , does anyone know if this unit switches neutral internally ?   Unit ceased working 3 days ago … batteries went dead … new batteries … everything seemed fine , batt charge  and invert fail in spite of no fault lights and panel looking and acting fine  ,  i pulled and verified both internal .250 fuses were fine !  Seemed to have a bad gfi receptacle i also replaced in coach … Fast forward after 2 full days iso of An issue .. i found if i jump or join neutrals at the bus bar in the coach fuse panel then unit charges and inverts fine with no issues  other then i know better and im in fear of a neutral feed back on 220 !  So do these switch neutral internally or am i really just searching for an open on neutral wire ? I toned all the wires every which way  i may have missed something and i dont know AC at all  i know DC  some  thank you for any help … ready to travel this week and  …. Not ready yet !  T

Rick and I agree that the INTERNAL MAIN PANEL is NOT supposed to have the Neutrals and the Ground BONDED. I would do a little backtracking.

First, I was under the impression that there were NO GFCI Receptacles in the 2002 Windsor. There is a subpanel and that subpanel has GFCI Breakers. Blow up the print. attached.  Also, I attached the best prints that we have in case you do not have the OEM Manual with prints. Just found it and it shows exactly how the subpanel is populated.

I know, for a fact...but sometimes my facts are a stretch...but I THINK THIS IS CORRECT, as I helped one of our founders, that the ONLY GFCI protection was in the subpanel. The rest were regular outlets or the Manufactured Home style receptacles.

Second, the only "approved" or recommended GFCI receptacles (based on the ONLY PUBLISHED DATA) from Magnum are Leviton, Hubbell and Eaton Wiring Devices. You sound pretty "wiring savvy".  BUT, some experts here have made the mistake of installing a NEW GFCI and NOT reading the stamped labels on the NEW GFCI. They are NOW a mixed bag.....the long and the short...many building codes NOW require the Ground Pin to be UP....so some are making the Ground PIN UP and then rearranging the backside....so if you have an older style and just rewire and have a new one.  OPPS....the Line and Load are reversed.

I would verify the NEED or if this Receptacle is being DOUBLE PROTECTED. If there is a GFCI breaker, as there should have been, in the subpanel and then there is a DOWNSTREAM GFCI....then put in a standard receptacle. You do NOT Daisy Chain or double protect circuits.  Thus a protected LOAD from a GFCI (receptacle or breaker) is NOT supposed to have a downstream GFCI receptacle.

Verify your wiring and the types of receptacles and follow the above....

Verify that the new GFCI (needed or NOT) is wired correctly.

Hope this helps.

2002 & 2003 Windsor Sub Panel & Inverter Circuit.pdf 2002_Windsor_wiring_diagrams.pdf

[1nolaguy]

For what it is worth, the Freedom 458 has several internal "glass tube" fuses. You might was to include checking these as part of your "process of elimination". These are located in obscure locations on CB so it may take some hunting. I discovered these on my old Freedon 458 when trying to diagnose a similar problem. In the end I decided to replace the unit (20+ years old) with a new pure sine I/C.

[waterskier_1]

4 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Rick and I agree that the INTERNAL MAIN PANEL is NOT supposed to have the Neutrals and the Ground BONDED. I would do a little backtracking.

First, I was under the impression that there were NO GFCI Receptacles in the 2002 Windsor. There is a subpanel and that subpanel has GFCI Breakers. Blow up the print. attached.  Also, I attached the best prints that we have in case you do not have the OEM Manual with prints. Just found it and it shows exactly how the subpanel is populated.

I know, for a fact...but sometimes my facts are a stretch...but I THINK THIS IS CORRECT, as I helped one of our founders, that the ONLY GFCI protection was in the subpanel. The rest were regular outlets or the Manufactured Home style receptacles.

Second, the only "approved" or recommended GFCI receptacles (based on the ONLY PUBLISHED DATA) from Magnum are Leviton, Hubbell and Eaton Wiring Devices. You sound pretty "wiring savvy".  BUT, some experts here have made the mistake of installing a NEW GFCI and NOT reading the stamped labels on the NEW GFCI. They are NOW a mixed bag.....the long and the short...many building codes NOW require the Ground Pin to be UP....so some are making the Ground PIN UP and then rearranging the backside....so if you have an older style and just rewire and have a new one.  OPPS....the Line and Load are reversed.

I would verify the NEED or if this Receptacle is being DOUBLE PROTECTED. If there is a GFCI breaker, as there should have been, in the subpanel and then there is a DOWNSTREAM GFCI....then put in a standard receptacle. You do NOT Daisy Chain or double protect circuits.  Thus a protected LOAD from a GFCI (receptacle or breaker) is NOT supposed to have a downstream GFCI receptacle.

Verify your wiring and the types of receptacles and follow the above....

Verify that the new GFCI (needed or NOT) is wired correctly.

Hope this helps.

2002 & 2003 Windsor Sub Panel & Inverter Circuit.pdf 158.56 kB · 0 downloads 2002_Windsor_wiring_diagrams.pdf 2.78 MB · 0 downloads

Tom, 

Seems you are being a bit picky here.  First, I clearly stated that "This is a general statement, and not directed at your specific inverter".  I also stated "GFCI's" which encompasses GFCI Outlets (receptacles) and GFCI Breakers.  The comment was not to address which the OP had, but why the inverter had to supply a ground when inverting.  

I do mostly agree on what you posted after the second paragraph, but that was not pertinent to the OP question on whether inverters supply their own ground or not.  I tried to stick to the point in question without true, but impertinent details.

I do have all those diagrams, but they only show the AC Inputs & Outputs, and the 12 VDC battery connections, and a ground connected to the inverter.  They do not show the internal wiring of the inverter, which I think is what the OP was asking.  You can not tell how the inverter reacts to the grounding when switching from AC IN (shore or gen) and Inverting mode.  

Again my response was in general as to how Inverters work, not how his specific inverter is wired inside, nor how the coach is wired to the inverter.  If I interpreted the question wrong, I apologize.

  -Rick N. 

Apache Jct., AZ

 

[Warden]

update .  it seems the 458 freedom has an internal relay that switches Neutral on an off on the output side   this is so Neutral is not hot all the time  otherwise 

some things like washing the coach could be dangerous  and a neutral back feed could cause a generator fail ,   so  i ordered an ac board that has the Neutral switching relay in it , ( i could not source the relay alone quickly  )  this is a 50/50 guess  on my part     but i have nothing else to go on , i did replace my new GFI as im told that some are not compatible like ones that have a lite  as my new one does , the part number for the relay board is 70-0131-03T  if anyone need it and tech support was excellent from PJ @ inverter service center  in TN 800-621-1271      weather it fixes it or not the phone support was outstanding , i run a shop  i know good and i know bad  these folks are excellent ++++    hope this info helps some one   thank you for pointing in the correct direction   !  W

[Tom Cherry]

7 hours ago, waterskier_1 said:

Tom, 

Seems you are being a bit picky here.  First, I clearly stated that "This is a general statement, and not directed at your specific inverter".  I also stated "GFCI's" which encompasses GFCI Outlets (receptacles) and GFCI Breakers.  The comment was not to address which the OP had, but why the inverter had to supply a ground when inverting.  

I do mostly agree on what you posted after the second paragraph, but that was not pertinent to the OP question on whether inverters supply their own ground or not.  I tried to stick to the point in question without true, but impertinent details.

I do have all those diagrams, but they only show the AC Inputs & Outputs, and the 12 VDC battery connections, and a ground connected to the inverter.  They do not show the internal wiring of the inverter, which I think is what the OP was asking.  You can not tell how the inverter reacts to the grounding when switching from AC IN (shore or gen) and Inverting mode.  

Again my response was in general as to how Inverters work, not how his specific inverter is wired inside, nor how the coach is wired to the inverter.  If I interpreted the question wrong, I apologize.

  -Rick N. 

Apache Jct., AZ

 

Mine was a generic agreement of your generic, I thought” agreement….time to move on and let’s see how this sorts out as I have no idea on the internals ofmthe freedom….the Magnum’s ATS is easy to understand as it is called out on the prints.

Fred White, our founder, had issues with his 2002 Windsor and i helped him and there was, based on those conversations, IIRC, NO INTERNAL GFCI Receptacle….

So….back to the problem….if someone has revised the internal AC circuitry and added in a GFCI receptacle, then who knows?  GFCI’s are a strange breed….and anytime someone revises or changes ANYTHING in a MH, it makes logical problem solving and troubleshooting more of an art, than a science.  From a personal note…many folks are more than qualified to make a revision and we have a lot that correct problems in the original design as Monaco was not infallible. However, unless the history of the issue was known a d documented, then it has been “proven” here, time after time, that one needs to look at the original PRINT. Determine if the wiring is correct in relationship to that print. THEN…draw a schematic or revise the print and ascertain what, exactly, was done….and THEN….  Could the revision or the “improvement”, be the issue?.?  I don’t keep or have statistics but too many times we find that known or unknown and undocumented changes are the culprit….

Maybe not in this case, but we have to have facts and understand if recisions Re made to rule out potential issues.

We have several members here that have done a lot of work or know the 2002 Windsors…

 @jacwjames   or OTHERS? Can you chime in?  As a matter of curiosity as well as future issues, does the Windsors  have any GFCI receptacles?

Thanks

2 hours ago, Warden said:

update .  it seems the 458 freedom has an internal relay that switches Neutral on an off on the output side   this is so Neutral is not hot all the time  otherwise 

some things like washing the coach could be dangerous  and a neutral back feed could cause a generator fail ,   so  i ordered an ac board that has the Neutral switching relay in it , ( i could not source the relay alone quickly  )  this is a 50/50 guess  on my part     but i have nothing else to go on , i did replace my new GFI as im told that some are not compatible like ones that have a lite  as my new one does , the part number for the relay board is 70-0131-03T  if anyone need it and tech support was excellent from PJ @ inverter service center  in TN 800-621-1271      weather it fixes it or not the phone support was outstanding , i run a shop  i know good and i know bad  these folks are excellent ++++    hope this info helps some one   thank you for pointing in the correct direction   !  W

Amazing amount of information and knowledge and trouble shooting. Also did not know that parts were still out there for an inverter this age….you never know….

One clarification, for other members and folks that help and suggest.

I just posted a “generality” on the 2002 Windsor…based on many prior issues and also working with one of our founders.  If you could read and respond as to the “GFCI” question.  If your 2002 Windsor does have a GFCI receptacle….as stated….where is it?  The concern is that there does not appear to be a clear print as to the overall downstream AC circuit from the subpanel…

If you have a good print that shows the circuit for the outlets and such…that would be great.  Monaco was inconsistent in the format of their drawings in information. I stated what we were lead to believe, but the real world trumps “prints” sometimes.

When you have time, can you update us on that?  Thanks….

Let us know how the new board works out….

[Warden]

[tmw188]

So what was burnt there. Could you identify it with a pointer or something to show what it is in pic 1 or 2 on the component side. 

Edited January 4 by tmw188

[Warden]

Tmw188  in the last pic @ 6:00 u can see the burn / hole in the board  this aligns with the neutral switching relay !  Cant say it fixed it yet with the new board in because i pulled the wiring harnesses and toned them front to back  just to make sure no open and no short … getting them back in will be a challenge .. i have to revamp the routing .. shocked no issues since 2006   Things can be routed much better ! 

[jacwjames]

I have been watching but didn't feel I could contribute.

My 2002 Windsor does not have the Freedom 458 inverter.  I have a Trace RV2012 inverter.    Wonder if previous owner changed inverters.

I do not have any GFIC outlets.  There are GFIC breakers in the the inverter panel (one for Kitchen and the other for bed/bathroom,  and one in the main service panel for the block heater.   

[tmw188]

1 hour ago, jacwjames said:

I have been watching but didn't feel I could contribute.

My 2002 Windsor does not have the Freedom 458 inverter.  I have a Trace RV2012 inverter.    Wonder if previous owner changed inverters.

I do not have any GFIC outlets.  There are GFIC breakers in the the inverter panel (one for Kitchen and the other for bed/bathroom,  and one in the main service panel for the block heater.   

I too have the Trace with the same setup in the coach. I had a Freedom 458 in my other motorhome however.