cbr046 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 5 minutes ago, Ivylog said: My engine not shutting off was caused by the BIRD back feeding power to the rear start board. @Bigdogracing I know yours is a 2013 but according to an old 2004 print there's a remote start switch on some models (if you have remote start) . . . pull the switch out? That will help you track down the source, like a back-feeding BIRD. Easy to disconnect the BIRD, but I don't see how it could be the source (unless it's shorting to trigger terminals internally). - bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 11 Author Share Posted March 11 1 minute ago, cbr046 said: @Bigdogracing I know yours is a 2013 but according to an old 2004 print there's a remote start switch on some models (if you have remote start) . . . pull the switch out? That will help you track down the source, like a back-feeding BIRD. Easy to disconnect the BIRD, but I don't see how it could be the source (unless it's shorting to trigger terminals internally). - bob Ours does not have remote start. How do I go about testing the BIRD though? How do we test the BIRD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 I agree with cbro46 above, unless the BIRD is destroyed to an extent that it's contacting other terminals physically, the BIRD remaining engaged should not affect the engine turning on or off. It will connect the house and chassis batteries leading to other longer term issues. I'd disconnect the wiring connector at the ignition switch with the engine running, key off, and see if that shuts it off. Since you've determine that removing the ignition relay shuts off the engine, that narrows down the focus quite a bit. Assuming you've swapped relays with no change. You can now concentrate on the ignition circuit between the ignition switch and the "trigger" side of that ignition relay, which I'm assuming includes the gauges, and might still include the alternator. And definitely includes multiple ground points that could backfeed voltage from various points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 11 Author Share Posted March 11 5 minutes ago, Benjamin said: I agree with cbro46 above, unless the BIRD is destroyed to an extent that it's contacting other terminals physically, the BIRD remaining engaged should not affect the engine turning on or off. It will connect the house and chassis batteries leading to other longer term issues. I'd disconnect the wiring connector at the ignition switch with the engine running, key off, and see if that shuts it off. Since you've determine that removing the ignition relay shuts off the engine, that narrows down the focus quite a bit. Assuming you've swapped relays with no change. You can now concentrate on the ignition circuit between the ignition switch and the "trigger" side of that ignition relay, which I'm assuming includes the gauges, and might still include the alternator. And definitely includes multiple ground points that could backfeed voltage from various points. Correct, putting in the spare relays did not change anything as far as that goes. However, I still have that one fuse slot in that relay cluster that is not getting any power from the board. I will try to remove the ignition with the engine running and what that does. One other thing- I would think that the engine is controlled by the chassis batteries and not the house batteries, but when trying to shut it off, I turn off chassis battery power first, the engine stays running- it only shuts off when house battery shut off is engaged - is that odd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 1 minute ago, Bigdogracing said: I would think that the engine is controlled by the chassis batteries and not the house batteries, but when trying to shut it off, I turn off chassis battery power first, the engine stays running- it only shuts off when house battery shut off is engaged - is that odd? I think you're on to something . . . . - b 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandick66 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 30 minutes ago, Bigdogracing said: Correct, putting in the spare relays did not change anything as far as that goes. However, I still have that one fuse slot in that relay cluster that is not getting any power from the board. I will try to remove the ignition with the engine running and what that does. One other thing- I would think that the engine is controlled by the chassis batteries and not the house batteries, but when trying to shut it off, I turn off chassis battery power first, the engine stays running- it only shuts off when house battery shut off is engaged - is that odd? If you’re talking about F17, it only has power with ignition off. Since your ignition won’t turn off, you won’t see power at that fuse. What relay did you remove to shut down the engine? Did the gauges return to zero when you did that ? Did you test for power at the switch and wires as I suggested on Saturday? If so, what were the results. You need to start methodically troubleshooting the problem. Start at the ignition switch. As I stated before, it is readily accessible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 11 Author Share Posted March 11 31 minutes ago, dandick66 said: If you’re talking about F17, it only has power with ignition off. Since your ignition won’t turn off, you won’t see power at that fuse. What relay did you remove to shut down the engine? Did the gauges return to zero when you did that ? Did you test for power at the switch and wires as I suggested on Saturday? If so, what were the results. You need to start methodically troubleshooting the problem. Start at the ignition switch. As I stated before, it is readily accessible. Ok, that makes sense on the F17- sorry you had to dumb it down for me. I feel like I am on info overload here as the days go by! The relay that shuts down the engine is the third from the left on the top row. The gauges did reset when that was done as well- in fact, that is the only way to reset them. I am not smart enough to know how to fully test the ignition wires since they are not individual and feed into a plastic harness. CAn you help me know how to test the ignition wires and then the ignition itself? Google isn't helpful with these RV ignitions that I could find anyway. Everyone here is so helpful and I appreciate you all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 Wise man once say "an RV is a conglomeration of systems wrapped in an enigma" (Steve Lehto on youtube), and you have some sort of cross connection between the house and chassis systems that might or might not be the issue here, but it's a good place to look. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandick66 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 8 hours ago, Bigdogracing said: Ok, that makes sense on the F17- sorry you had to dumb it down for me. I feel like I am on info overload here as the days go by! The relay that shuts down the engine is the third from the left on the top row. The gauges did reset when that was done as well- in fact, that is the only way to reset them. I am not smart enough to know how to fully test the ignition wires since they are not individual and feed into a plastic harness. CAn you help me know how to test the ignition wires and then the ignition itself? Google isn't helpful with these RV ignitions that I could find anyway. Everyone here is so helpful and I appreciate you all! If you remove the dash pad/cover you can see the ignition switch. There are 4 wires. As I posted on Saturday, looking down at the switch, the top wire/connector is battery and has 12 volts at all times. To the left of that wire/connector is the “run” terminal. It should have 12 volts when you turn the key on. I would remove that wire and see if you have 12 volts on the terminal with the ignition switch off. If you do, I would say you ignition switch is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 39 minutes ago, dandick66 said: If you remove the dash pad/cover you can see the ignition switch. There are 4 wires. As I posted on Saturday, looking down at the switch, the top wire/connector is battery and has 12 volts at all times. To the left of that wire/connector is the “run” terminal. It should have 12 volts when you turn the key on. I would remove that wire and see if you have 12 volts on the terminal with the ignition switch off. If you do, I would say you ignition switch is bad. Did that and there is power from the battery wire and the ignition wire at all times. Even when the ignition switch is unplugged. So thinking it the wiring harness or something besides the actual ignition piece where the key goes right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 Yes, I'd say that rules out the ignition switch. It also makes it somewhat easier to diagnose because you can look for whatever is supplying that voltage without starting and stopping the engine continuously. Do the gauges come on with the key off when the battery is first hooked up? What about the house battery hooked up but not the chassis battery? What happens if you disconnect the house batteries first, then disconnect the chassis batteries? Does the power go out on that ignition circuit with the house batteries or the chassis disconnected? I'd rig up a 12v buzzer into the relay socket so it's easy to hear when you succeed in finding the disconnect, in case it happens without you otherwise noticing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 10 hours ago, Benjamin said: Yes, I'd say that rules out the ignition switch. It also makes it somewhat easier to diagnose because you can look for whatever is supplying that voltage without starting and stopping the engine continuously. Do the gauges come on with the key off when the battery is first hooked up? What about the house battery hooked up but not the chassis battery? What happens if you disconnect the house batteries first, then disconnect the chassis batteries? Does the power go out on that ignition circuit with the house batteries or the chassis disconnected? I'd rig up a 12v buzzer into the relay socket so it's easy to hear when you succeed in finding the disconnect, in case it happens without you otherwise noticing it. Once the house batteries are turned on the dash automatically comes on without the key, even being in the coach. Also, that behavior doesn’t shut off until the house. Batteries are disconnected so it’s something on the house side. I’m just not sure how to figure it out, we’ve changed all the relays that we can see all the fuses all the easy stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 Our sister ship Endeavor is 10 yrs older so design may have changed since then, but I have a relay in the rear run bay that connects chassis & house (operated by the dash Boost switch). I doubt that's an issue. There's a second relay inside the front run bay on the PC Board that connects chassis & house. I'd start by disabling that relay, ALL terminals, and see what happens. Then, with chassis side disconnected, see if the wire turns on that relay is activated. There's also a bare wire (on mine) that serves a purpose, although I'm kinda clueless what the engineers were thinking with that bare wire, but make sure it's not touching something. You might take that relay (if yours has it) and just remove the energizing wire. Do dash instruments turn off? Does that wire always have 12V? What drives that wire? I don't know . . . . I (obviously) don't have a solution, just suggesting a troubleshooting path. - bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandick66 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 hour ago, Bigdogracing said: Once the house batteries are turned on the dash automatically comes on without the key, even being in the coach. Also, that behavior doesn’t shut off until the house. Batteries are disconnected so it’s something on the house side. I’m just not sure how to figure it out, we’ve changed all the relays that we can see all the fuses all the easy stuff. Is everything “normal” (coach starts and engine stops) when you turn the house batteries off and leave the chassis batteries on? To me, that’s a critical step in troubleshooting this problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 Yes, if leaving the house batteries disconnected eliminates the issue, that is a big step. The boost/BIRD should not do this, because that would not get power to the ignition circuit without the key on. The circuit board would be a better place to start. Especially since you say it started up the first time normally, and then would not shut off, and had been started normally a month ago, and had no work done this year. Had there been any other work done in the last year? even inside the coach if not on or near the wiring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterskier_1 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 4 minutes ago, Benjamin said: Yes, if leaving the house batteries disconnected eliminates the issue, that is a big step. The boost/BIRD should not do this, because that would not get power to the ignition circuit without the key on. The circuit board would be a better place to start. Especially since you say it started up the first time normally, and then would not shut off, and had been started normally a month ago, and had no work done this year. Had there been any other work done in the last year? even inside the coach if not on or near the wiring? I also wonder if the "Big Boy" solenoid (relay) contacts may have "welded" themselves together? You might be able to check this with the engine off, shore power disconnected, solar (if anydisconnected. This should ensure that there are no charging sources to energize the Big Boy fits the BIRD system. In this case, check the voltage on each side of the Big Boy to ground, they will likely be different I'd the contacts are open. It is unlikely that both banks would be at the same voltage. Also remember that the Big Boy I'd energized by the Battery Boost switch on the dash too. - Rick N Tucson, AZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 Even with the boost solenoid OUTPUT welded together, the key should still turn the engine off. If there were connections between the inputs to the BIRD, that's where I'd look. For instance, IF the system uses ignition on, solar, or plugged in grid power as inputs to turn on the BIRD, that could possibly short and cause the ignition backfeeding here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 7 hours ago, dandick66 said: Is everything “normal” (coach starts and engine stops) when you turn the house batteries off and leave the chassis batteries on? To me, that’s a critical step in troubleshooting this problem. No, once the chassis batteries are on, the dash starts beeping and lighting up as if the key were in and ignition in ON position. 6 hours ago, Benjamin said: Yes, if leaving the house batteries disconnected eliminates the issue, that is a big step. The boost/BIRD should not do this, because that would not get power to the ignition circuit without the key on. The circuit board would be a better place to start. Especially since you say it started up the first time normally, and then would not shut off, and had been started normally a month ago, and had no work done this year. Had there been any other work done in the last year? even inside the coach if not on or near the wiring? no work of any kind has been done to it at all. It has literally set on its pad waiting to be used again. thats why this is so strange so suddenly stat out of th blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandick66 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 Ok. Here is another idea. The attached schematic is from Navistar, not Monaco. I’m assuming you have the Maxxforce 10 engine. Look at the top 2 relays I’ve circled in red. These relays are located in the RRB next to the battery tray (photo attached). Try turning both sets of batteries off and then disconnect the connection to the 2 most inboard relays. Then turn the batteries back on. The engine won’t start, but I’m curious to see if the gauges cycle and everything turns off properly when you turn the key off. Those relays are for the ECM power and ACT power. I know for a fact that if the ECM relay isn’t working properly the engine will shut down. I can’t remember if the gauges 0 out or not. Let us know the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 13 Author Share Posted March 13 19 hours ago, dandick66 said: Ok. Here is another idea. The attached schematic is from Navistar, not Monaco. I’m assuming you have the Maxxforce 10 engine. Look at the top 2 relays I’ve circled in red. These relays are located in the RRB next to the battery tray (photo attached). Try turning both sets of batteries off and then disconnect the connection to the 2 most inboard relays. Then turn the batteries back on. The engine won’t start, but I’m curious to see if the gauges cycle and everything turns off properly when you turn the key off. Those relays are for the ECM power and ACT power. I know for a fact that if the ECM relay isn’t working properly the engine will shut down. I can’t remember if the gauges 0 out or not. Let us know the results. I did this, and the gauges seem to act as normal. On 3/12/2024 at 9:52 AM, waterskier_1 said: I also wonder if the "Big Boy" solenoid (relay) contacts may have "welded" themselves together? You might be able to check this with the engine off, shore power disconnected, solar (if anydisconnected. This should ensure that there are no charging sources to energize the Big Boy fits the BIRD system. In this case, check the voltage on each side of the Big Boy to ground, they will likely be different I'd the contacts are open. It is unlikely that both banks would be at the same voltage. Also remember that the Big Boy I'd energized by the Battery Boost switch on the dash too. - Rick N Tucson, AZ When batteries off and no other power source there is no voltage to the big boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandick66 Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 Ok, I think we may have some progress. Try reconnecting one of those relays and see if the coach acts “normal”. If not, disconnect that one and reconnect the other one and see what happens. You may have a bad relay. This will help us isolate which of those 2 relays is potentially bad. Let us know the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 14 Author Share Posted March 14 On 3/13/2024 at 3:29 PM, dandick66 said: Ok, I think we may have some progress. Try reconnecting one of those relays and see if the coach acts “normal”. If not, disconnect that one and reconnect the other one and see what happens. You may have a bad relay. This will help us isolate which of those 2 relays is potentially bad. Let us know the results. Reconnected one and still same issue, Unhooked that one and connected the other one and still same issue. However, when the last one was disconnected, the gauges did not reset they only reset when disconnecting the second to last one- not sure if that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandick66 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 Ok, so that second to last relay might be bad. Try switching the connectors of those 2 relays. In other words plug the inboard most connector to the second to the last relay and plug that relays connector to the inboard most relay. If the gauges and ignition switch works, then we’ve isolated the problem. If that relay is bad, the engine may not start, so don’t get alarmed. Post the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 15 Author Share Posted March 15 18 minutes ago, dandick66 said: Ok, so that second to last relay might be bad. Try switching the connectors of those 2 relays. In other words plug the inboard most connector to the second to the last relay and plug that relays connector to the inboard most relay. If the gauges and ignition switch works, then we’ve isolated the problem. If that relay is bad, the engine may not start, so don’t get alarmed. Post the results. I will try that but need to say that even with what I did yesterday once I turn on the chassis batteries the dash starts dinging without the key so it’s getting power from somewhere it shouldn’t I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandick66 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 2 minutes ago, Bigdogracing said: I will try that but need to say that even with what I did yesterday once I turn on the chassis batteries the dash starts dinging without the key so it’s getting power from somewhere it shouldn’t I think. Is the dash dinging with both of those relays disconnected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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