Bigdogracing Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 Went out to move the RV for a potential weekend trip. Started as usual but then would not shut off with key and the key came out with the engine still running. Finally, used the battery disconnect to stop the engine. also, the gauges do not go back to zero when shut off. It starts back up but just will not shut off. Could it be ignition? Which is probably not good since the dash probably has to come out to get fixed so hoping it a solenoid or relay or something simple. Thanks is advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jim Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 There is a fuel shutoff solenoid that may have gone bad or come undone. Look for where the linkage attaches at the engine. I had a much older coach that this was the problem. Hope this helps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomV48 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 I also learned when fiddling around with installing my DC to DC charger that if I BACK FEED power from battery to the ignition hot lead which normally activates the charging solenoid to allow alternator to charge the house batteries, that I cannot shut off the engine. So check for anything shorted on to the low amperage side of that solenoid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterskier_1 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 As Tom mentioned, feedback can cause this. I see it most often when an alternator is replaced with the incorrect one, or wired incorrectly. Has any wiring been recently done. - Rick N Casa Grande, AZ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 8 Author Share Posted March 8 10 hours ago, waterskier_1 said: As Tom mentioned, feedback can cause this. I see it most often when an alternator is replaced with the incorrect one, or wired incorrectly. Has any wiring been recently done. - Rick N Casa Grande, AZ Nothing has been done to it- its been sitting since New Years- we did start it up last month and no issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timaz996 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 (edited) Sorry was thinking of light switch Edited March 8 by timaz996 was thinking of light switch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dads Dog House Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 I also had an issue where my ignition switch would not shut down my engine, C-13 CAT though, not Cummins. I replaced ignition switch and start relay in front run box, and still not shutting down. Mine would shut off id I hit my emergency stop button on HWH 2000 series leveling pad, then get out and hit HWH reset button in outside front run box to get dash to shut down. Ended up being 2 diodes in the HWH main control box in my basement compartment, I sent it up to HWH to be rebuilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdinsmore Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 If your ignition switch is like mine (2000 Diplomat) then you can reach under the dash and push a release button on top of the switch to remove it. No need to tear into the dash. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimc99999 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 (edited) You don't mention which coach, my 97 Windsor had that problem with feedback through the 7-pin trailer harness plug when a trailer was connected preventing the fuel shutoff solenoid from closing. Another thing to check is the rear start/stop switch. Cycle it back to front a few times to shake any dust out of the contacts, then try starting/stopping the coach from the rear run switch. My 97 had a problem where it was getting difficult to start, eventually I had to turn on the ignition, go depress the fuel shutoff solenoid into the run position, and then start the coach. Once I finished that trip I started checking things and sure enough the start coil on the fuel shutoff solenoid wasn't getting any power. I started tracing wiring to see where that came from, turns out it went through the rear run switch. Flipping the switch a few times made everything work and it's been fine for several thousand miles since. Edited March 8 by jimc99999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 8 Author Share Posted March 8 1 hour ago, jimc99999 said: You don't mention which coach, my 97 Windsor had that problem with feedback through the 7-pin trailer harness plug when a trailer was connected preventing the fuel shutoff solenoid from closing. Another thing to check is the rear start/stop switch. Cycle it back to front a few times to shake any dust out of the contacts, then try starting/stopping the coach from the rear run switch. My 97 had a problem where it was getting difficult to start, eventually I had to turn on the ignition, go depress the fuel shutoff solenoid into the run position, and then start the coach. Once I finished that trip I started checking things and sure enough the start coil on the fuel shutoff solenoid wasn't getting any power. I started tracing wiring to see where that came from, turns out it went through the rear run switch. Flipping the switch a few times made everything work and it's been fine for several thousand miles since. How do I find this rear start/stop switch. No mention of that in my manual unless I’m not using proper term. what I find in checking relays what the the F17 5 amp fuse if not bad but that fuse slot is not getting power. The book says that fuse is for RELAY RL4 NC OUTPUT +12. No clue what that means but sounds important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimc99999 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 55 minutes ago, Bigdogracing said: How do I find this rear start/stop switch. No mention of that in my manual unless I’m not using proper term. It should be in the engine bay, accessible from the rear engine cover. There should be a switch with positions labeled Front and Rear, and some kind of momentary switch to start the motor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 You can check the ignition switch if you can use a multimeter and get access to the ignition switch. Could be easiest to remove it, disconnect the wire connector, and test the continuity "in the open". I don't know the HMH or what control system you have or how it interacts with the ECM, but if you can find that info, then you can test the input voltages. Don't forget to test the grounds at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 9 Author Share Posted March 9 11 hours ago, Benjamin said: You can check the ignition switch if you can use a multimeter and get access to the ignition switch. Could be easiest to remove it, disconnect the wire connector, and test the continuity "in the open". I don't know the HMH or what control system you have or how it interacts with the ECM, but if you can find that info, then you can test the input voltages. Don't forget to test the grounds at the same time. Thanks ignition tested fine. UPDATE: Switched out relays and didn’t get anywhere- although the ones I old get locally were 30 amp and apparently the ones in it are 40 amp. I found in checking relays what the the location F17 5 amp fuse is not bad but that fuse slot is not getting power. The book says that fuse is for RELAY RL4 NC OUTPUT +12. No clue what that means but sounds important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan K Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 Light years ahead from our coach but a would assume that you have a couple of relays marked as Ignition and Accesory in the FRB? Since your gauges also stay active, I would check the ignition relay. It should be open with key OFF. If it stays closed, it is either stuck or getting power from the key switch when it should not. My relays are the same as salesman solenoids and easy to check, no idea about yours. If it behaves as it should, then you have a backfeed somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 9 Author Share Posted March 9 How do I know if the relays are open or closed? They are little black boxes. I did pull all the ones that were marked ignition- there are three- and replace each with the spare relay but nothing changed. I would just take it to shop but three dealerships have told me it’s chassis related and they can’t help and the two chassis shops told me it electrical to take it to the dealership. This is crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandick66 Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 I have a 2012 Diplomat, so more than likely the wiring is the same. When you get the engine to shut off with the disconnect, what happens when you just turn the key to run? (Of course you would need to re-energize cut off switch first). Do you get the gauges to swing, etc? IF you turn the key back to off, do the gauges go to “0”? If it continues to run in the off position, I would leave the switch off and go to the FRB and tap on the top 4 relays with a plastic screwdriver handle and see if the engine stops. VCM (the top right relay) is more than likely the culprit. I’ve attached photos of my FRB and label. I feel your pain about getting anyone to look at it. It seems like no one wants to touch these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jim Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 If the ignition checks out... I'd still check the rear fuel solenoid. I have not noticed if you said you had checked it or not. Sorry if you did. I assume the throttle works when you press it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan K Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 Ok, I guess that eliminates the stuck relays then. Don't know the type of your relays, automotive or not but I would test for voltage between the coil female pins, with relay removed and expect there would be none with key OFF. Just an idea not knowing anything about your coach. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 9 Author Share Posted March 9 15 minutes ago, dandick66 said: I have a 2012 Diplomat, so more than likely the wiring is the same. When you get the engine to shut off with the disconnect, what happens when you just turn the key to run? (Of course you would need to re-energize cut off switch first). Do you get the gauges to swing, etc? IF you turn the key back to off, do the gauges go to “0”? If it continues to run in the off position, I would leave the switch off and go to the FRB and tap on the top 4 relays with a plastic screwdriver handle and see if the engine stops. VCM (the top right relay) is more than likely the culprit. I’ve attached photos of my FRB and label. I feel your pain about getting anyone to look at it. It seems like no one wants to touch these things. Yes our wiring is the same. The behavior is the same whether the key is out of it in it or in the on position the only difference is when you turn the engine on, but then when we disconnect it either by removing a relay or turning the batteries off to shut off the engine the gauges all stay the same and do not zero out. The gauges do not go to zero by any turn of the key. we are going to go tap on them as you suggested. One more thing to mention is under that VCM relay one of those fuses is not getting any power when we use the test light to test it. A mechanic told us that should not make a difference with our issue that we’re having now, but I’m suspicious of that. 20 minutes ago, Just Jim said: If the ignition checks out... I'd still check the rear fuel solenoid. I have not noticed if you said you had checked it or not. Sorry if you did. I assume the throttle works when you press it? Where is rear fuel solenoid exactly? You know the engine is not easily accessible. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 On a 2012 engine, the injectors are each individually electronically controlled by the ECM, so I don't think there is any fuel solenoid to stick. The fact that your gauges stay on suggests that the ignition circuit is hot, if that power is not coming from the ignition switch, then where could it be coming from? After you kill the engine by disconnecting the battery, then later hook it back up. Do the gauges come on with the key in off before the engine is started? And even with the battery disconnected? That would suggest a cross connection between the house batteries or solar and the chassis ignition. If the gauges do not come on with the engine off, then I might look first at the alternator connections or any diode near the alternator circuit. If you have a wiring diagram, trace the circuits that control the relay that shuts off the engine when you remove it, or find what does shut the gauges off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandick66 Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 1 hour ago, Bigdogracing said: Yes our wiring is the same. The behavior is the same whether the key is out of it in it or in the on position the only difference is when you turn the engine on, but then when we disconnect it either by removing a relay or turning the batteries off to shut off the engine the gauges all stay the same and do not zero out. The gauges do not go to zero by any turn of the key. we are going to go tap on them as you suggested. One more thing to mention is under that VCM relay one of those fuses is not getting any power when we use the test light to test it. A mechanic told us that should not make a difference with our issue that we’re having now, but I’m suspicious of that. Where is rear fuel solenoid exactly? You know the engine is not easily accessible. Thank you It looks like F17 is connected to the NC output of RL4. Since it’s NC, maybe it only get 12 volts when it’s open. Can you get up under the dash with a test light? With the switch off, you should only have power on 1 lug. I just went out and checked mine. F17 has 12 volts with the ignition switch off. When the switch is on, it drops to 0. I lifted the dash pad and the ignition switch is readily accessible. There are only 4 wires on it. Looking from the top, the top terminal is battery and should have 12 volts at all times. The terminal to the left is ignition and should get 12 volts when you turn the switch on. Have you tested that? Alternatively, you could pull all 4 wires and check continuity between the top and left connector. Switch off should show and open, switch on should show a short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterskier_1 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 If you remove the wires from the ignition switch, and then manually connect (touch in the case of START) and then disconnect them manually, and the engine still runs, it would eliminate the ignition switch as a cause. Next, I would temporarily disconnect all the small wires from the alternator (yes it won't work in this configuration) and test again. If it is a problem in the alternator or is wiring keeping the IGNITION circuit hot, it would only be hot when the alternator is producing electricity. If it is in the Ignition Switch & that wiring, then it would be hot even when the engine is not running (no power from the alternator). - Rick N Tucson, AZ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 I'd be tempted to pull the ignition relay with the engine running and see what happens. Just tempted, mind you. . . . . - bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdogracing Posted March 11 Author Share Posted March 11 10 hours ago, cbr046 said: I'd be tempted to pull the ignition relay with the engine running and see what happens. Just tempted, mind you. . . . . - bob We got desperate and did that- it kills the engine. 20 hours ago, waterskier_1 said: If you remove the wires from the ignition switch, and then manually connect (touch in the case of START) and then disconnect them manually, and the engine still runs, it would eliminate the ignition switch as a cause. Next, I would temporarily disconnect all the small wires from the alternator (yes it won't work in this configuration) and test again. If it is a problem in the alternator or is wiring keeping the IGNITION circuit hot, it would only be hot when the alternator is producing electricity. If it is in the Ignition Switch & that wiring, then it would be hot even when the engine is not running (no power from the alternator). - Rick N Tucson, AZ The wires to the ignition are in a harness, not individual- are you suggesting to remove each wire from the plastic end and test as above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivylog Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 My engine not shutting off was caused by the BIRD back feeding power to the rear start board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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