Super Wall Slide goes out crooked - 2006 Knight

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

My 25’ road side super slide goes out crooked, in that the rear moves first, with the front lagging behind 5-6”.  $500 later, two shops & one mobile mechanic have just topped off the fluid and said nothing else to be done.  What say you?

[Ivan K]

Has every one of them had to top it off? Is the front side also behind the same when retracting? And what type of hydraulic system is it, assuming it has a synchronizing cylinder?

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

Well, the first two shops charged me to do so, but I didn’t see what they did—or did not do. The independent tech just checked & said it was OK.  Of course, it did not malfunction then, but did next day.  No, it retracts evenly.  What I’d like to know is if there is some sort of shuttle or equalizing valve that can be adjusted.

2006 Knight 40DFD

Edited May 4 by johncvandoren@gmail.com
Clarification

[Ivan K]

Still don't know what system you have but with my HWH two ram system, both cylinders are t-ed and share the same valves through synchronizing cylinder on one side. No adjustment there, the only time I had it happening was with a leak and then air in the plumbing. Missing fluid would indicate a leak if that was the case. If air, there are bleeding procedures, somewhat messy. Don't know if you might have a mechanical issue effecting only one direction, I have adjustment nuts on ram pistons but they could not explain 6" difference) however air in extend line would be suspect in my case. Holding the button past retract stop might purge it, maybe.

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

I believe it too is HWH.  I’ll try bleeding it out at the end of retract next time I’m at the coach in storage.  Thanks.

[Dr4Film]

If you can't resolve the issue, take it to Talin RV in Brooksville Florida. @throgmartin will make your slide work better than when it left the factory in 2006.

Edited May 4 by Dr4Film

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

40 minutes ago, Dr4Film said:

If you can't resolve the issue, take it to Talin RV in Brooksville Florida. @throgmartin will make your slide work better than when it left the factory in 2006.

Well, Florida is one of two state stickers missing on my cross-country map!  If I can get there from California, I’ll sure try!  Thanks!

[dennis.mcdonaugh]

The HWH system is easy to work on. There are three cylinders, a sync cylinder and two rams. Going in or out crooked is a symptom of air in one of the lines or cylinders. Since it’s a closed system it usually means you have a leak. If they put a significant amount of fluid into the system, you probably have a leak. 
 

A small leak usually isn’t noticeable at first, but eventually enough fluid comes out it’ll drip onto something in the basement and become visible. 
 

The rams usually leak into the roadside compartments. Open the slide and look into the boxed tubes that move in and out with the slide. You may see fluid there. 
 

The sync cylinder is hard to find, but it’ll be in the top of the basement, mine was evenly split between the propane and fuel tank compartment, right next to the wall. 

HWH has a lot of potential bro on line. 

[grizzly]

If I have too much weight on slide that will happen to me. Also If there is any debris in your hydraulic fluid is possible other issue

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

TY.  4 y/o Res fridge is on slide about 9-10’ from rear. Think it weighs no more than original 4-door Norcold 1210, maybe even less.  Front-most item is queen sleeper couch, which will be replaced this year—will look for lighter model.  Nothing heavy in front overhead cabinets.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4 by johncvandoren@gmail.com
Clarification

[Tom Cherry]

John,

Pulled your manual and the sales brochure. There is now reference in the manual to a 25 ft Super or Full Wall slide. NOW….all that to say.  Very difficult to troubleshoot something that perhaps was a special build or a show coach or an experimental model. THERE may be others that are aware or have experience…but , from all the posts over a long time….you might benefit from the basics.

UNFORTUNATELY…. In many cases, the reliability of the full wall slides is poor.  Chris Throgmartin ( @throgmartin) was mentioned.  His comments have been honest, but not complimentary of them. We have helped folks over the years….I remember issues on a Dynasty and a Camelot and maybe a few more….the Knight does NOT pop up.

I googled as well as searched our data posts.  NADA on a Knight with a Full Wall slide.  So….that is unfortunate.

From a generic standpoint,  I DOUBT you have a HWH system….why…even in the upper food chain Dynasty (2007 to be precise), the one model with a Full Wall Slide and the conventional HWH system for the remainder….had a LIPPERT “simple” Hydraulic pack or system.  It was sort of “buried” or located on the Driver’s side in a bay….which is odd or very unusual.  It took a LONG time to get it working.  We spent time on the phone with a Mobile tech and he finally sort of “lucked into” it….like, what is “this thing?”  The THING was that it WAS an oddly placed Lippert hydraulic package and he finally, by using jumpers from his truck…got it retracted…so the member could drive.  I located a Tech nearby, who was really trusted and knowledgeable….I use him.  The owner took it in.  He diagnosed it.  A TRIPPED Circuit breaker.

NOW….that is NOT your issue…but I CAN tell you that I chased a similar problem on the SAME Lippert system….which controlled my two slides.  Only difference, I think, in your system and mine.  I have two valves….you have one.

BTW…I had three techs tell me MINE was FINE….but it was intermittent….and never “balky” when they tested and ran an amperage test….

HERE GOES….and this is real world….

First of all….FIND the unit.  If it IS a Lippert, it will have a motor with a Solenoid above it.  There will be a cable to the soleonid….and a cable from the solenoid to the Motor.  The OTHER side or motor terminal will be a cable to ground.

There are a LOT of bad advice, novice YouTube Videos on how to fix or such….and one was absolutely wrong and would mess up the motor. 

Here is one that shows,  but not in the best detail, what I THINK yours looks like as it is what was used in the rare 2007 Dynasty full wall.

yours will be slightly different, but the motors are sill the same design.  I tightened my motor studs after some use….the NEW ONE.

Check every connection on the large cables.  But pay particular attention to the motor.  Unscrew (power off of course at house and chassis) the nut holding the cable.  There will be a smaller net under it.  Tighten “snuggly”….but not twisting off, that nut.  That nut holds the motor stud (s) tight.  If the stud retaing nut(s) is loose, there is a HIGH resistance connection….and the motor is moving slower and the slide will be balky and erratic.  My slide is NOT as long as yours….but it did the same thing.

Do this SIMPLE TEST first…Have some extend or move the slide.  Put your VOM on the House Bank….I doubt the Chassis is powering….but can’t find a print.  If you are on shore or genny running….the voltage will be 13.1 or so…..if all is well, the voltage during the slide’s movement should stay in the mid 12’s.  But if the motor has a high resistance connection….then note how low it goes.  NOW…go to the Lippert unit. Out your VOM on the motor teminals.  Exercise the slide.  Whatever the voltage was at the House….hopefully no more than a few tenths drop.  Check the connections per the above and repeat.

IF the motor is drawing too much current….bingo….it kicks up the amperage and your motor gets hot.  Mine had, from the factory,the wrong size circuit breaker and I eventually killed the system….I figured it out TOO LATE.  New pump system.  The entire unit was about 40% more than just the motor….a NO Brainer.

That is MY experience.  Now….if you want to try a “trick”.  Take a vehicle….and put the positive on the INCOMING cable of the solenoid.  Ground out the negatvie to the  frame.  Now….let someone work the slide….did it run faster and smoother and not balky?  If so…you have a bad connection up stream.  Swap out the House Disconnect switch.  Cheap.  You have a great switch….but they break.  Mine was eventually the issue.  I’d carry a spare one anyway….so, putting in a new switch…Blue Seas….is good maintenance and might just be the problem…again….this is real world and I spent a LOT of time with Lippert, Monaco and others and finally, Frank. McElroy taught me the proper way to isolate a problem.  

THATS GENERIC….but I would not spend another penny on it until I had less than 0.2 - 0.3 VDC drop in Motor Voltage….while running from the House bank…

PAST THAT….If you have good voltage and can have someone check the current draw at the motor….it should be less than 70 amps.  Lippert says 65 Amp motor and to fuse or protect at 80 A.  Mine had a 150A…

 

[Tom Cherry]

EDIT and UPDATE.  Was watching a video and the YouTuber rebuilt the motor.  My windings were toast.  However if you look at the screen shot, it is a GREAT show and tell.  Notice the stud.  It is a “drop in place and tighten down”. GREAT as long as you don’t have it in a MH that vibrates like a 4.5 Mag earthquake.  The retaining nuts, on the outside, loosen.  Poor contact on the inside….arcs and sparks and high resistance.

EVERY LIPPERT owner should do this PM every few years.  Sometimes experience is a dear $chool….just passing on.  The solenoid connections are fixed…just clean and tighten…

 

[Dr4Film]

22 hours ago, johncvandoren@gmail.com said:

Well, Florida is one of two state stickers missing on my cross-country map!  If I can get there from California, I’ll sure try!  Thanks!

Another excellent west coast location for Monaco knowledgeable service tech's is called Elite R&R in Harrisburg Oregon.

https://eliternr.com/

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

On 5/4/2024 at 12:22 PM, Tom Cherry said:

John,

Pulled your manual and the sales brochure. There is now reference in the manual to a 25 ft Super or Full Wall slide. NOW….all that to say.  Very difficult to troubleshoot something that perhaps was a special build or a show coach or an experimental model. THERE may be others that are aware or have experience…but , from all the posts over a long time….you might benefit from the basics.

UNFORTUNATELY…. In many cases, the reliability of the full wall slides is poor.  Chris Throgmartin ( @throgmartin) was mentioned.  His comments have been honest, but not complimentary of them. We have helped folks over the years….I remember issues on a Dynasty and a Camelot and maybe a few more….the Knight does NOT pop up.

I googled as well as searched our data posts.  NADA on a Knight with a Full Wall slide.  So….that is unfortunate.

From a generic standpoint,  I DOUBT you have a HWH system….why…even in the upper food chain Dynasty (2007 to be precise), the one model with a Full Wall Slide and the conventional HWH system for the remainder….had a LIPPERT “simple” Hydraulic pack or system.  It was sort of “buried” or located on the Driver’s side in a bay….which is odd or very unusual.  It took a LONG time to get it working.  We spent time on the phone with a Mobile tech and he finally sort of “lucked into” it….like, what is “this thing?”  The THING was that it WAS an oddly placed Lippert hydraulic package and he finally, by using jumpers from his truck…got it retracted…so the member could drive.  I located a Tech nearby, who was really trusted and knowledgeable….I use him.  The owner took it in.  He diagnosed it.  A TRIPPED Circuit breaker.

NOW….that is NOT your issue…but I CAN tell you that I chased a similar problem on the SAME Lippert system….which controlled my two slides.  Only difference, I think, in your system and mine.  I have two valves….you have one.

BTW…I had three techs tell me MINE was FINE….but it was intermittent….and never “balky” when they tested and ran an amperage test….

HERE GOES….and this is real world….

First of all….FIND the unit.  If it IS a Lippert, it will have a motor with a Solenoid above it.  There will be a cable to the soleonid….and a cable from the solenoid to the Motor.  The OTHER side or motor terminal will be a cable to ground.

There are a LOT of bad advice, novice YouTube Videos on how to fix or such….and one was absolutely wrong and would mess up the motor. 

Here is one that shows,  but not in the best detail, what I THINK yours looks like as it is what was used in the rare 2007 Dynasty full wall.

yours will be slightly different, but the motors are sill the same design.  I tightened my motor studs after some use….the NEW ONE.

Check every connection on the large cables.  But pay particular attention to the motor.  Unscrew (power off of course at house and chassis) the nut holding the cable.  There will be a smaller net under it.  Tighten “snuggly”….but not twisting off, that nut.  That nut holds the motor stud (s) tight.  If the stud retaing nut(s) is loose, there is a HIGH resistance connection….and the motor is moving slower and the slide will be balky and erratic.  My slide is NOT as long as yours….but it did the same thing.

Do this SIMPLE TEST first…Have some extend or move the slide.  Put your VOM on the House Bank….I doubt the Chassis is powering….but can’t find a print.  If you are on shore or genny running….the voltage will be 13.1 or so…..if all is well, the voltage during the slide’s movement should stay in the mid 12’s.  But if the motor has a high resistance connection….then note how low it goes.  NOW…go to the Lippert unit. Out your VOM on the motor teminals.  Exercise the slide.  Whatever the voltage was at the House….hopefully no more than a few tenths drop.  Check the connections per the above and repeat.

IF the motor is drawing too much current….bingo….it kicks up the amperage and your motor gets hot.  Mine had, from the factory,the wrong size circuit breaker and I eventually killed the system….I figured it out TOO LATE.  New pump system.  The entire unit was about 40% more than just the motor….a NO Brainer.

That is MY experience.  Now….if you want to try a “trick”.  Take a vehicle….and put the positive on the INCOMING cable of the solenoid.  Ground out the negatvie to the  frame.  Now….let someone work the slide….did it run faster and smoother and not balky?  If so…you have a bad connection up stream.  Swap out the House Disconnect switch.  Cheap.  You have a great switch….but they break.  Mine was eventually the issue.  I’d carry a spare one anyway….so, putting in a new switch…Blue Seas….is good maintenance and might just be the problem…again….this is real world and I spent a LOT of time with Lippert, Monaco and others and finally, Frank. McElroy taught me the proper way to isolate a problem.  

THATS GENERIC….but I would not spend another penny on it until I had less than 0.2 - 0.3 VDC drop in Motor Voltage….while running from the House bank…

PAST THAT….If you have good voltage and can have someone check the current draw at the motor….it should be less than 70 amps.  Lippert says 65 Amp motor and to fuse or protect at 80 A.  Mine had a 150A…

 

Dr4Film & Tom,

wow! What an excellent response.  I hope to get to my coach tomorrow and will try to find the motor and pump to verify that I have the Lippert system.  May not have time to work on it then, but at least will have these excellent instructions to follow soon and often.

Thanks all.

John 

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

I have confirmed mine IS a Lippert, not HWH.  I will clean it up next time at storage and start troubleshooting as you suggest.  Thanks a lot!

 

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, johncvandoren@gmail.com said:

I have confirmed mine IS a Lippert, not HWH.  I will clean it up next time at storage and start troubleshooting as you suggest.  Thanks a lot!

 

OK....clean it up.  A MUST.  NOW, since this is a SINGLE....as in it only works back and forth (retract and extend) and it ONLY RUNS ONE SLIDE....it is DIFFERENT.

You will have to do some digging....but here is my take...  You have a REVERSING Solenoid.  If I could see the picture of the OTHER SIDE....would confirm it.

The solenoid works like this.  When it closes (the solenoid COIL is energized) from the EXTEND SWITCH....it provides power to the motor.  SO....lets say the two terminals on the motor...as you look in from the plate.  Extending, hypothetically, sends POSITIVE to the RIGHT Terminal (Stud) on the motor The LEFT (opposite side) has NEGATIVE.  Retracting reverses that...so the RIGHT Terminal has Negative and the LEFT has Positive.

Therefore, you do NOT have any "small solenoids" that control the fluid flow.  

MY FIX...  Clean the unit and check the MOTOR Studs and make sure the CAPTIVE or nuts securing the STUDS are tight.  That eliminates a high resistance connection.

Next UP...  follow the cables (maybe ONE) from the motor... That is the MAIN POWER.  Measure it.  It SHOULD BE around 13.1 or whatever the HOUSE bank is showing.  IF it is MORE than the House Voltage by MORE than 0.2 VDC..., you have a HIGH RESISTANCE CONNECTION...  If it is the same...  Then, MAYBE ALL MIGHT BE WELL.

NOW...  Have someone move the slide....say OUT.  Measure the HOUSE Voltage when it is going OUT...  Then retract it...and then extend again.  This TIME... Measure the VOLTAGE on the MOTOR (across BOTH Terminals).  If you are getting say, a difference...a DROP of more than 0.5 VDC (motor lower than the HOUSE)  DURING the same direction....then there is a CONTACT problem in the Solenoid.  THAT happens....and you replace the solenoid.

NOW...if you want to see how it would WORK using your vehicle...  FIRST...  Measure the EXTEND Voltage and Determine WHICH STUD on the MOTOR (left or right) is POSITIVE.  THEN use the Jumper cables and a vehicle.  Put the POSITIVE on the RIGHT.  you have BYPASSED the Solenoid....it will RUN or move as long as the Jumper Cables are connected.  Have someone yell STOP when it is OUT.  You should ALSO hear the motor's pitch or noise change.  It will get higher and maybe NOT AS LOUD.  That is where you STOP.  Then retract it...so you have to REVERSE the Polarity....SAME DEAL.,

NOW....if the jumper cables do this....and it moves quicker or faster or is less "RATCETEY", you KNOW there is a Voltage issue....and either in the Solenoid (burned contacts) or in the cable connections.  IF you have it plugged in or are on 50 Amp....the Inverter will be charging....so that is OPTIMUM...

That's how it works.  IF it EVER QUITS, there IS a cover plate on the end...you pull out the plug or the cap.  Find a nut that fits.  Turn it ONE WAY with a DRILL....it move in one direction....same if you REVERSE the drill...it will go the opposite.

The fact that you have a functional slide motor and movement....that eliminates all the MAYBE IN THE SWITCHES.  The Solenoid, as long as the switches move it in the right direction, means the SWITCHES and SOLENOID are Functional.  BUT, you have to measure the HOUSE Voltage (preferably with Genny on or 50A) and see what the motor is reading....and VOLTAGE Drops are signs of either HIGH RESISTANCE connections in the Cabling or in the solenoid.

You CAN also Measure the INCOMING Voltage on the MAIN Cable.  If it and the HOUSE are, under load, about the same or maybe 0.2 VDC Lower....then all is well upstream of the Positive connection on the solenoid. I quickly found this.  NOW....all YOUTUBES are NOT certified or tested and we HAVE found all the experts that post....sometimes do NOT understand.

BUT...  ODDS ARE...a MATTER of VOLTAGE.  

NEXT TIP.  THE fluid should be just barely below of maybe 1/2 inch down from the TOP of the plastic reservoir....WHEN FULLY RETRACTED.  It will GO DOWN when you extend it.  SO, always CHECK in the RETRACTED position....and FILL up to say 1/2" BELOW.

 

FINAL LIPPERT TIP.  Get the Model Number off the frame or the unit.  That IS on your Build Sheet or the RV Data Card or LIST of items.  

DO NOT CALL LIPPERT and ask for TECH SUPPORT.  They do NOT have the OEM PN....you have to go into PARTS.  They have the OEM (the base unit sold to Monaco's PN...and the RETAIL or Replacement unit is DIFFERENT.  Don't ASK...that is what BOTH SIDES (Parts and Tech told me).

THEN parts can advise WHICH entire unit or part....like a motor....that you need.  THEN if you EVER have to talk to Tech Support....you give them THE RETAIL Or Across the COUNTER number...and they have all the info there.

QUIRKY....yes...but the way their data bases work.

[Ivan K]

I don't have lipert but since it also appears to use same in-out lines on the pump for both cylinders, how would a motor or motor solenoid voltage effect one cylinder differently than the other. To me, there is and issue on the hydraulic side (air or uneven line lenght or mechanical?) that makes one cylinder slower and only in one direction. But I may be wrong about the plumbing, just an assumption from what I read.