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Need info on the stock solar panel setup on a 2002 Signature 40


JJMonaco

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I am new to the site and have been spending a lot of time reading posts.  There’s a lot of info here…What a great group this is!  

I purchased a 2002 Signature 40 a few weeks ago and am just getting to know it.  I have studied the owners manual and still I have a lot of questions.  My wife and I are former long time live aboard-cruising sailors and I am very familiar at living on 12volts.  However the coach is a bit more complicated electrically than the boat.  So he we go…  The charging system: I am not sure everything is working correctly.

The coach seems to be pretty much original from the electrical stand point.  It has what I believe is the original solar panel on the roof.  I doesn’t seem to be charging the batteries.  I do have the electrical manual and have been studying it intensely, however I don’t see any info on the solar panel wiring.  The only thing I have found is there is a supposed to be a ground wire on the low amperage plate negative strip in the driver-side engine area.  I could use some in site on where or if there is a controller for the panel, where the wiring goes once inside the fridge vent, and where it is supposed to finally hooks into the 12V electrical system.  After I get that figured out I will move deeper into the high current plate operation, big-boy testing, battery saver, …

Thanks,

JJ

 

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Our 00 Sig came with a 30 Amp solar charger independently charging both banks with different configurable voltages. It is in a control panel above the fridge in ours. If you find yours and it has a display and a switch to see either banks voltage, it should charge both. The charge wires go from it directly to batteries with an inline fuse over the batteries. It can't do much more than trickle charge with its single solar panel.

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Thank you's to: willbo777, Ivan K, Chuck B, and waterskier_1 for you input,  wiring diagrams, etc.  That info has jumped me fwd in knowledge a lot of steps.  I found the solar controller above the fridge on my 02 Signature. (thanks Ivan K)  It's an RV 30D controller.

In my battery bay there is a temp sensor and two 12 ga. orange wires and another wire that looks like a 24 ga speaker wire that terminates in a lug with an 1/4" hole that were just hanging there.  I put the sensor on the house battery with a bit of adhesive.  One of the two orange wires connects to the same lug the house battery connects to.  The other orange wire is coming through the back wall. - -(I'm speculating maybe from the solar controller) It had a voltage reading of 13.5 v which was higher than either the chassis or coach house batteries.  I have no idea what the other wire with the lug is for unless it is a ground connection for the temp sensor?

I just had cataract surgery this morning, so will be out of commission for a week or so until the eye heals.  I am looking forward to get back to working on the coach. Once again thanks for your help.

All The Best,

JJPreview attachment IMG-3371.JPG [Image] 2.8 MB.URL

 

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Looks like our factory setup was. We have a flat gray temp sensor for the trace inverter/charger. The "speaker wire" is a temp sensor lead for RV30 and goes on any lug. Yellow 8Ga wire to house battery positive. Orange 8Ga wire to chassis batteries positive. There is also a white wire that is a shared ground for the two and terminates on the frame out of sight. Hope you heal quick!

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2 hours ago, Ivan K said:

Looks like our factory setup was. We have a flat gray temp sensor for the trace inverter/charger. The "speaker wire" is a temp sensor lead for RV30 and goes on any lug. Yellow 8Ga wire to house battery positive. Orange 8Ga wire to chassis batteries positive. There is also a white wire that is a shared ground for the two and terminates on the frame out of sight. Hope you heal quick!

I have the same "speaker wire" just hanging in my battery compartment not hooked up. 

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  • 1 year later...

Hey folks.  So my new to me Executive has 1 solar panel on the roof and a switchable monitor mounted on the back wall of the bedroom that will tell you the amount of amps of charge.  In reading the manual it appears that the controller is capable of handling a total of 4 panels.  My questions is... I imagine that the panels have changed somewhat in 20 years, so I doubt that I can just hook up 3 new ones to go with the one old one?  Panels are fairly inexpensive so I suppose I could just put 4 new ones in?  Thoughts on the old controller being compatible? 

I do dry camp fairly often so a bit more power would be nice, just don't want to get into replacing everything at this moment.  Adding some panels does not sound like a huge job... famous last words?

 

 

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When I relocated our factory panel, it had a sticker on its back side indicating 12V 90W. I wasn't going to use it in combination with new panels but it still works fine for charging chassis batteries through the old controller. I think the old controller needed 12V rated input but not totally sure since I wasn't going to add to it.

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You will not likely find new (not new old stock) panels that will work properly with that panel.  Like Ivan, when I upgraded my solar system, I decided not to toss the original panel (I think mine was 100 Watts on my 05 Exec) but instead allocated it to charging the chassis battery.  I did replace the old, inefficient PWM (Plus Width Modulation) controller with an MPPT controller though.  

I also went a bit further than many - I completely isolated my Chassis Electrical System from the Coach Electrical System.  I did this because I had conventional Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) batteries for the Chassis and Lifeline AGM batteries for the coach.  Even though both have similar charge characteristics, the engine alternator is not a Smart Charger.  Instead it charges at a constant 14.2 -14.4 volts always (unless too much load it put on it such that the max output is exceeded).  I did not want my new (expensive in 2018) AGM batteries sitting at 14.2 volts for 6 - 8 hours a day, as I was driving.  This is even more important now that I switched to Lithium Batteries that can not be safely charged directly from the alternator.  So, the Chassis battery is either charged by the alternator when driving, and then by solar when not.  Since the battery if fully topped off when I park, 100 Watts solar is plenty to keep it charged.  When parked, the inverter/charger maintains my Coach batteries, when there is not sufficient solar, and the solar has no problem keeping the Coach batteries charged while driving.  I have a total of 1400 Watts - 100 Watts to the Chassis battery through its own controller and the remaining 1300 Watts go to the Coach through its own controller. 

  -Rick N.

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If you don’t want to change everything out, you can remove the stock panel and put four other panels on the roof. PWM controllers just don’t do as well as MPPT controllers when there’s partial shading but otherwise will perform pretty close to the more expensive MPPT controller. Just make sure you read your manual on the controller as you will have to change a setting on the back showing you’re putting more amperage to it. That is, if it is anything like the one I have.

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  • 7 months later...

So... I'm coming back around to this upgrade again.  I have a trip coming up in May where I'm going to be unplugged for at least a week and would like to get the solar upgraded to handle the parasitic drain on the batteries.  The manual says that the existing controller can handle 4 85watt panels.  My hair brain question is... if I find used 100 watt panels do you think the degradation of being used would make them compatible with that controller.  I'm thinking I would replace the existing panel and install four of the same type under that scenario.  And.... an alternate question as I don't really like the idea of having 4 panels... could I install a single 300 watt panel or 2 150 watt panels?  In other words the controller is rated for 4 x 85 watts, does it have to be 4 panels to make up a total wattage or can I stay under 340 watts and use fewer panels? 

Lastly, IF I went the route of a new controller and panels, would it be as simple as wiring the new controller into where the existing one is... and adding a couple of 300-400 watt panels on the roof?  The existing wiring would be sufficient???? 

Thanks in advance.  I'm really leaning toward the new controller and panels, I'm just afraid of having to run new larger gauge wiring through some of those tight spaces.

Jim

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If you only worry about parasitic drain, the stock setup should be fine, it was for me. If you want more, I would start with a completely new modern system. The existing cables will be a limiting factor but could possibly be reused for PV connection to a new controller. That's what I did for ours using higher PV voltage.

Edited by Ivan K
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13 hours ago, Just Jim said:

So... I'm coming back around to this upgrade again.  I have a trip coming up in May where I'm going to be unplugged for at least a week and would like to get the solar upgraded to handle the parasitic drain on the batteries.  The manual says that the existing controller can handle 4 85watt panels.  My hair brain question is... if I find used 100 watt panels do you think the degradation of being used would make them compatible with that controller.  I'm thinking I would replace the existing panel and install four of the same type under that scenario.  And.... an alternate question as I don't really like the idea of having 4 panels... could I install a single 300 watt panel or 2 150 watt panels?  In other words the controller is rated for 4 x 85 watts, does it have to be 4 panels to make up a total wattage or can I stay under 340 watts and use fewer panels? 

Lastly, IF I went the route of a new controller and panels, would it be as simple as wiring the new controller into where the existing one is... and adding a couple of 300-400 watt panels on the roof?  The existing wiring would be sufficient???? 

Thanks in advance.  I'm really leaning toward the new controller and panels, I'm just afraid of having to run new larger gauge wiring through some of those tight spaces.

Jim

I have wired 700W of four panels on my roof using a Victron 100/50 MPPT controller using the stock wiring from the roof to the controller. Going on my filth year and it works fine. I also added 800W that I can tilt in the winter with all new wiring and another 100/50 controller. 

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59 minutes ago, timaz996 said:

I have wired 700W of four panels on my roof using a Victron 100/50 MPPT controller using the stock wiring from the roof to the controller. Going on my filth year and it works fine. I also added 800W that I can tilt in the winter with all new wiring and another 100/50 controller. 

Thanks for the info.  I would prefer to have 2 higher wattage panels rather than 4 lower wattage panels.  Do you think you could have used 2 350 watt panels to get your 700 watts instead of the four panels?

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7 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Thanks for the info.  I would prefer to have 2 higher wattage panels rather than 4 lower wattage panels.  Do you think you could have used 2 350 watt panels to get your 700 watts instead of the four panels?

Yes, High voltage panels will be best...say around 36v no load each. Make sure they can't produce more voltage then your controller is rated for. Not even a couple volts. More amps is fine and is actually better.

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I'm not sure you got the answer to your question.  That is an old technology controller, being PWM (Pulse Width Modulation).  It is rated at 30 Amps and at 12 volts that would be around 360 Watts.  So, to answer you question, as long as you stay below 350 watts, it would work, although inefficiently compared to the current MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking) technology controllers that are now in use.  

The drawings for 2003 Dynasty (likely the same as for the Exec) show 12/2 wires from the panel to the "combiner" and then 8 gauge from the combiner to the controller and also out of the controller so it can handle 30 Amps.  You could connect any combination of solar panels equal to 350 Watts to the combiner and be within the design spec's of the controller and the Monaco wiring.  

Note that this controller was like used because it has two outputs: the main one to the house batteries and a second to the chassis batteries.  The second, Engine or Chassis is limited to 3 Amps though. 

I also found in the manual this interesting statement: "The RV-30D is much more than just a Solar Charge Controller. It has a very unique feature that comes into play when you are charging from a 120VAC source. At night, when your RV is plugged into Shore Power or you are running your Generator, the RV-30D allows the “Engine” batteries to be charged while you are charging your “House” batteries with an Inverter/Charger or a Converter!".  I don't use this controller, so I can't vouch for the accuracy, of charging engine, chassis batteries while your inverter/charger is charging your house batteries, but I think Monaco had another way to accomplish this.  

  -Rick N.

currently in Casa Grande, AZ

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks very much everyone for the above information.  I think I've got a good frame of reference on this old system now.  It was bright sun today and I got up and cleaned the solar panel.  At the highest sun, the controller said 3 amps.  So, if I understand correctly... 3 amps times 12 volts is 36 watts of power, from a panel that is rated at 85 watts?  Is that the inefficiency of the old style controller?  Would a newer controller squeak more power out of the panel?

I have had the coach plugged into shore power, so I imagine the batteries are topped off.  Does it make sense that the amperage read out on the controller would go up when I turn off shore power?  What exactly is that read out?  The amount of power coming from the panel or the amount of power the controller is allowing to go out?

I like how the current controller is built into the wall.  It seems like the newer controllers are more of a surface mount type arrangement???

Thanks again.

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Jim, the panels won't "produce" power if it's not being absorbed by the batteries, and if the batteries are full, then they are not absorbing much.  Think of the solar charge controller like a voltage regulator on an alternator, the PWM controller is nothing more than a switch, if the battery voltage is below it's set point, it connects the panels and the battery.  When the voltage rises above the setpoint, it disconnects the battery.  It does this so fast that it maintains an even voltage, but the panels are shut off some of the time at rated voltage and full batteries. 

On the other hand, 36W from a FLAT 85W panel is not bad.  Panels are rated for full sun, that is FACING full sun, not sitting flat, so you'll never get full output on a typical RV setup.  Also high temp cuts production, so if you'll ever tip your motorhome on it's side in arctic conditions, you'll raise the voltage ABOVE the panels label and could fry your controller. 

The biggest difference between current panels and the original ones, is voltage.  In the old days panels were so expensive that 12V panels were common, now most panels are 36v, so if you hook a 36v panel to a 12V system with a PWM controller you'll never exceed 50% because the PWM can only deal with the high voltage by turning it off.  An MPPT controller can transform whatever voltage is coming in into whatever voltage it feels is best for the batteries, and is relatively efficient at doing that.  So the panels can be wired in series for 100-400V with the existing small wires and the MPPT will convert that high voltage to battery voltage while conserving most of the wattage.  You'll want the wires from the controller to batteries to be short and sized for the amps of the new controller.  Probably a good time to consider lithium also, or at least any new controller that can be set for Li. 

If you can find some 12V (18V max will be the rating on the label) then you can add more panels with the existing one and controller.  Or you could center tap any 36V panel if you're that kinda guy, but then you probably wouldn't be here asking.

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4 hours ago, Benjamin said:

Jim, the panels won't "produce" power if it's not being absorbed by the batteries, and if the batteries are full, then they are not absorbing much.  Think of the solar charge controller like a voltage regulator on an alternator, the PWM controller is nothing more than a switch, if the battery voltage is below it's set point, it connects the panels and the battery.  When the voltage rises above the setpoint, it disconnects the battery.  It does this so fast that it maintains an even voltage, but the panels are shut off some of the time at rated voltage and full batteries. 

On the other hand, 36W from a FLAT 85W panel is not bad.  Panels are rated for full sun, that is FACING full sun, not sitting flat, so you'll never get full output on a typical RV setup.  Also high temp cuts production, so if you'll ever tip your motorhome on it's side in arctic conditions, you'll raise the voltage ABOVE the panels label and could fry your controller. 

The biggest difference between current panels and the original ones, is voltage.  In the old days panels were so expensive that 12V panels were common, now most panels are 36v, so if you hook a 36v panel to a 12V system with a PWM controller you'll never exceed 50% because the PWM can only deal with the high voltage by turning it off.  An MPPT controller can transform whatever voltage is coming in into whatever voltage it feels is best for the batteries, and is relatively efficient at doing that.  So the panels can be wired in series for 100-400V with the existing small wires and the MPPT will convert that high voltage to battery voltage while conserving most of the wattage.  You'll want the wires from the controller to batteries to be short and sized for the amps of the new controller.  Probably a good time to consider lithium also, or at least any new controller that can be set for Li. 

If you can find some 12V (18V max will be the rating on the label) then you can add more panels with the existing one and controller.  Or you could center tap any 36V panel if you're that kinda guy, but then you probably wouldn't be here asking.

So... today I checked the display again with the coach having been on shore power overnight and it said 3.2 amps.  When I checked the voltage on the chassis and house they were at 14.5.  So the display is a reading of the amps that are going out, not what the panels on the roof are actually generating.  Correct?  I am thinking I'll cut the power to the coach tomorrow morning when I wake up so the batteries can be discharged some and then see how the solar does as far as maintaining the batteries. 

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It's been a while since I looked at the old RV30 controller's amperage since it is now only charging chassis batteries but I remember seeing 7A back when it was still hooked up to both banks with factory panel and my understanding was that the current was split between the banks as needed, based on dip switch settings. 

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Correct, the panel should maintain whatever batteries it's hooked to as long as there's no significant load on them.  You can check by unplugging the shore power, then using the inverter for something large enough to remove the surface charge on the batteries, the microwave should bring them down to 12.5 or 6 in no time, then watch how many amps the solar puts into the batteries before they charge back above 13.5.  If the solar is only hooked to the chassis, then turn the ignition on with out starting the engine and run the fan on low to do the same thing. 

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1 hour ago, Ivan K said:

It's been a while since I looked at the old RV30 controller's amperage since it is now only charging chassis batteries but I remember seeing 7A back when it was still hooked up to both banks with factory panel and my understanding was that the current was split between the banks as needed, based on dip switch settings. 

From the RV-30 manual 

Quote

It is literally two charge controllers in one, and as such, the RV-30D allocates the charge to both the house and the engine batteries simultaneously. The “Engine” battery charging circuit is limited to 3 amps with a state-of-charge fixed at 13.4 VDC. The “House” battery charging circuit can deliver up to 30 amps with a selectable state-of-charge from 13.2VDC to 14.6 VDC.

Note this is not a smart charge controller.  The engine output voltage is fixed at 13.4 VDC (around Float voltage) and the House is user adjustable, by Dip Switches, to a fixed voltage between 13.2 to 14.6 VDC.

Note that on Solar controllers, the current rating it typically the OUTPUT Current, and the Power being delivered is the Output Current multiplied by the Charge Voltage (not just the nominal 12 volts) which would be the voltage you choose between 13.2 and 14.6 Volts.  

Note that with PWM, it just switches On/Off the input voltage to maintain the set charge voltage.  So, anything more than the charge voltage put the device overhead (typically 3 - 5 volts) is just thrown away.  That is the beauty of MPPT controllers, they can use what would have been excess voltage, and provide additional charge current.

Let me know if I can answer any other questions.

  -Rick N.

Tucson, AZ

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