Front Air conditioner tripping GFI on kitchen

[danwegand]

My 2003 Windsor which have owned for 17 yrs and have 210,000 miles. I don’t understand how Air conditioner can trip the GFI of kitchen 120 ac plugs.  Have been experiencing issues with AC , has worked for while then stops working, starts back up. 
Assume compressor problem? Has anyone experienced this? 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, danwegand said:

My 2003 Windsor which have owned for 17 yrs and have 210,000 miles. I don’t understand how Air conditioner can trip the GFI of kitchen 120 ac plugs.  Have been experiencing issues with AC , has worked for while then stops working, starts back up. 
Assume compressor problem? Has anyone experienced this? 

Couple of comments to verify some things.  One of our founders, Fred White, had a 02 & 04 Windsor and loved them.  Memory says the Windsor has a subpanel for the interior outlets and it has a GFCI breaker and not the more common receptacle style GFCI.  Please verify as some folks may not be aware, if I am correct, that.

He had some issues and I recall some of his fixes and such.  So…based on that and what we now know….here is what I would try.

First, regardless of type (receptacle or circuit breaker) GFCI’s deteriorate and will act strange….sort of like an AZD patient…..totally unpredictable.  Replace it.  You need an “approved” brand for the receptacle type.  Eaton Wiring Devices is my pick, then either a Hubbell or Leviton,  It is, most likely, a 20 A, but verify.  If you purchase an Eaton, they are following a new path that many building inspectors desire.  There are local codes now that require the Ground Pin to be on top.  If you replace a common one and put the Ground pin DOWN, then the LINE side and the LOAD side are reversed.  Pull out the old unit, verify the Amps, look at terminal designation on the back and label each piece of Romex as Line or Load….then reinstall the new one and make sure the Line and Load go to the proper terminals.

If you have a GFCI Circuit Breaker, then get a name brand such as Square D or Semens….not an off brand generic replacement like Lowes Utilitec.  While you are in the panel (shore unplugged and Genny circuit breaker OFF) tighten all the connections….EVERY LAST ONE…in the panel. Do that for the Main panel as well.  If you have the Intellitec EMS system, then chase the Romex from the main breakers to the EMS Board and tighten the screws on the terminals there.

THEN….see if that resolves it.  OK….no JOY….then I would use the following steps.

STOP using the Fluorescent overhead light fixtures. That assumes you have not converted to LED.  There will be a switch (hopefully) on the side of each unit.  Turn that switch off.  A BAD ballast can do strange things….far fetched, maybe, but even the DC signals cause issues.

THEN….assuming same problem, concentrate on the refrigerator.  You MAY or may NOT have two outlets accessible from the lower outside cover.  If you have 2, then ONE will be fed from the GFCI breaker and the other from the main panel Refrigerator Breaker.  If you have installed a residential refrigerator, odds are it is running off the GFCI outlet.  If you ONLY have ONE outlet….it is the “heater” circuit.  A refrigerator can wreak havoc on a GFCI.  That is why your home does NOT have a GFCI on the dedicated refrigerator circuit.  Even NEW refrigerators have been known to “False Trip” a new GFCI.  Nothing electrically wrong or UNSAFE in the refrigerator.  But there are heaters to auto defrost and also, the biggest offender, the heater in the icemaker mold.  So, if you have the original Norcold…with 2 cords, the icemaker is plugged into the GFCI.  UNPLUG it.  If you have a residential refrigerator, odds are, it works off the GFCI.  Turn off or trip the GFCI and verify.  THEN, find another power source.  Use an extension cord and the block heater.  Unplug the microwave and run a temporary cord from that outlet.  If at a CG, use the outlet on the pedestal.  Once the refrigerator (assuming if is on the GFCI circuit) is removed….then get back to us.

All the above….can and do cause problems.

Good Luck….let us know.

[jacwjames]

Not sure if my 2002 Windsor is the same as your 2003 but here goes

I do have a subpanel that provides most of the power to outlets, only two outlets come off the main panel.  One is for the block heater and the other is for an outlet behind the refrigerator.  

There are two GFCI circuit breakers in the subpanel, one is for the rear bedroom, sink, toilet and basement.  The other GFCI is for the kitchen area except for the microwave, it has it's own circuit breaker which does not have GFCI.   My kitchen cabinets/countertop/microwave are in a slide.  There is a Jbox that has the wiring for microwave and outlets, might be worth checking the connections there. 

The main panel only has one GFCI and it is for the block heater.  Both AC come off of the main panel. 

I do have two outlets for the refrigerator.  One is powered by the subpanel/inverter, and one powered from the main panel, neither are GFCI.

Using Tom's suggestions probably the easiest thing to do is swap wires in the subpanel to power the microwave from another breaker.  In my case the Microwave and refrigerator/icemaker breakers are right next to each other.  I'd try swapping those wires and see if it solves your problem BUT you will have to watch your fridge if it is plugged into the that breaker.  You may want plug into the to outlet powered off main panel if on shore power.

 

I had strange things happening with my wiring in 2021.  Generator died and wouldn't stay running.  Ultimately I found one circuit coming off the subpanel was the culprit.  Would work on inverter and shore power but as soon as I tried using the generator I had problems.  Ultimately I believe it was a bad wire in the ceiling  probably caused by mice.  Rewired the circuit abandoning the section in the ceiling. 

While I was dealing with this I decided to check the block heater outlet, no power to it and the GFCI breaker would trip.  Bought a new breaker and that solved that problem.  I'd never used the block heater so it was worthwhile checking. 

[Scotty Hutto]

To add just a bit of color to Tom’s excellent advice…

- Code (that is, the NEC) indicates a refrigerator or freezer should not be on a GFI protected circuit. I made this mistake when I first installed my residential refrigerator, and it created a LOT of nuisance trips. Once moved the fridge circuit off the GFCI outlet, no problems. Fortunately on my Diplomat, the “ice maker circuit” (tied into the inverter power) at the GFCI outlet in the rear bathroom, so it was an easy change to move that connection ahead of the GFCI outlet. Problem solved.    

- A bad motor or capacitor (like in an AC!) can cause a GFI to trip in a seemingly unrelated circuit.  Especially and old GFI. Think of it like crimping a hose where the pressure backs up all through the plumbing. A bad motor can cause “dirty power” throughout the coach as it begins to fail  

- If you still have the problem after working through Tom’s process, I would suspect your front AC as the culprit - especially if it’s been acting flaky. 

[jacwjames]

Not going to edit my previous post, reread initial post,  had a brain fart.

But there are two GFCI breakers in the subpanel, you could try swapping those wire to see if the same thing happens. 

[danwegand]

Got to RV park, shore power resolve AC & GFI issues, so problem is power coming from 7500 generator, 9000 hrs, talked to my hometown RV tech, he had me check transfer case for burnt wires on gen side or loose. Found no issues.  800 miles home from New Mexico to Texas, very hot! So going to leaving back AC off and run gen for residential frig and  front AC. Anyone got thought on issues? Thanks for help!

[jacwjames]

Try leaving the GFCI off and see if the AC stays running, this would at least narrow it down to that circuit.  

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, danwegand said:

Got to RV park, shore power resolve AC & GFI issues, so problem is power coming from 7500 generator, 9000 hrs, talked to my hometown RV tech, he had me check transfer case for burnt wires on gen side or loose. Found no issues.  800 miles home from New Mexico to Texas, very hot! So going to leaving back AC off and run gen for residential frig and  front AC. Anyone got thought on issues? Thanks for help!

OK…curiosity on high alert.  Pulled your manual.  NOW, I can speak or comment with more info….which comfirmed my original comments and suspicions.

You DO have a subpanel.  You also have what we lovingly call. Dual IN- Dual OUT inverter.  That means that there are TWO inverter 30 A breakers and two “lines” out from the Inverter.  That in itself has the potential for a HOST of issues that would boggle Tom Edison’s mind….but here goes.  OK…the AC UNIT.

Your title says FRONT AC trips.  Your post now says REAR AC will stay off and run Genny for…& Front AC.  Maybe I misread it.  Sometimes the title topic is edited for clarity.  My “super powers” don’t always show an “edit title” in the log.  For clarification….

WHICH AC TRIPS THE GCFI?  

Next….and this is now a bit more generic knowing WHICH AC would be very helpful.   You are NOT having an issue with the Front, based on the above 

Check YOUR ATS.  If it is an IOTA 50R, you have a MAJOR issue….that supercedes all else,  it MUST be replaced.  It was recalled.  The most used is the ESCO LPT50BRD.  Others have used other brands….so the call is yours.  There are many topics on this.  Use IOTA & TOPIC.  Sit down comfortably as it can be a days reading….and that is no joke.  This switch is a personal safety and fire safety hazard and should be replaced ASAP.  

FIRST…. whether a safe ATS or the IOTA.  No shore on. Trip the 30 amp breaker (dual) on the generator and tighten every screw in the ATS.  Then see what happens. 

SECOND…. Remove the cover from the main panel.  ALL POWER OFF as in the First.  Tighten every screw or terminal.  Then, leave the cover off and restore power and test again.  

NOW….I cannot find an 03 manual….so I am reading the 02.  There are a few things, specifically, that I can offer….here are pictures of the TWO panels that you should have.   PLEASE VERIFY that you have them…..if the above doesn’t work.  All simple, relatively speaking and you don’t have to have a VOM, yet….which of the following panels….which are BOTH shown in the 02 manual do you have.  That is Really IMPORTANT….as it narrows down a lot and you will get specific help…not just generic….  BUT….GOTTA KNOW YOU HAVE BOTH…

OK….as to the various suggestions….to simplify.  In the subpanel (second panel) where the GFCI’s are….Do this….in order.

POWER TOTALLY OFF.  Look at the breakers.  Is one hanging “lower” or looks out of place.  If you take off the subpanel cover….tighten every screw there.  Then lift the bottom of the breaker or where the wires are.  Sometimes a breaker will vibrate loose.   MEMORY says you lift up the bottom and it snaps off or away from the box or mount.  You sort of push in ONE end and then it is seated and you keep pushing the other end….and then it snaps or locks in place.  Do that for all 8 (if not all you have) breakers.  Were any screws loose or breaker not seated?

NOW, if you have NOT done the “swap the GFCI….do that.  If it cures it….you have a BAD GFCI.  Buy TWO….the other one is probably not gonna work long.  Many people, at this point…just replace BOTH as they can’t figure out whether it is a flaky GFCI or what…so two NEW ONES….they eliminated both of them….and they are old and way past their useful life.
 

OK…did that work….and I mean that ON GENNY, did it fix it?  This ALL assumes that when you are on 50A, then all is well.  After you tightened and reseated every wire and circuit….then my GUT feel….  You actually MAY  have a generator issue OR an Intellitec EMS issue.  
 

FIRST….Make sure that the water heater is OFF now…by tripping or turning OFF the water heater breaker.  Not just just switching from a switch from 110 VDC to 12 VDC….the breaker MUST BE OFF.  Is you have the NON AQUAHOT water heater with the switch….make sure the two switches…..leave both of them OFF. If so….report back….and the next steps…..only a few at a time,

FWIW.  You just did a much needed Preventative Maintenance job.  Every MH should have this done every 3 - 4 years….

 

[danwegand]

Tom, first I want to thank you and all the people that have help me repair things on this coach for 17 yrs, I have limited electrical and other experience from my past work. I don’t always understand some of the acronyms in the The messages.

The front AC was causing GFI trips, Got to RV park and shore power resolved all issues, on way home plan to run only front AC & Res Frig to lesson load on Generator. Found no loose or burnt wires in Transfer switch. Sent pictures of panels and have volt meter.

I believe you wanted me to check for loose wires in the panels and voltage? Thought I would send this message to Make issue more clear. Appreciate all your help and experience. Thank you.

[jacwjames]

Your transfer switch, if it's like my 2002 Windsor, is in the small bay in front of the Wet bay but can be accessed via a sliding black plexiglass door in the large bay just in front of it.  This is where your inverter is.  The transfer switch is on the passenger side.  You can access it pretty easy, check to see what transfer switch you have, hopefully it looks like this https://www.amazon.com/Elkhart-LPT50BRD-Automatic-Transfer-Switch/dp/B007HS0ONG

The Iota transfer switch is the one that had the recall. 

As Tom suggested, unhook from shore power and disable the generator by tripping the breaker next to the start button on the generator.  Remove the cover of the transfer switch and check to make sure all connections are tight.  Look for any signs of heat, especially if it is an IOTA transfer switch. 

Take the cover off the main and subpanels and check connections there to make sure they are tight.  As Tom suggested swap the the wires on the two GFCI breakers in the subpanel.  This will test to see if it s a bad breaker and/or something going on with the AC causing breaker to trip.

Your first picture is of the 12 volt fuse panel, this is what controls lights, fans, etc.  Check to make sure the main lug at the bottom is tight.  I doubt this has anything to do with the problem but while you are checking you might as well torque down the 12 volt lug on the large red wire. 

[Tom Cherry]

42 minutes ago, danwegand said:

Tom, first I want to thank you and all the people that have help me repair things on this coach for 17 yrs, I have limited electrical and other experience from my past work. I don’t always understand some of the acronyms in the The messages.

The front AC was causing GFI trips, Got to RV park and shore power resolved all issues, on way home plan to run only front AC & Res Frig to lesson load on Generator. Found no loose or burnt wires in Transfer switch. Sent pictures of panels and have volt meter.

I believe you wanted me to check for loose wires in the panels and voltage? Thought I would send this message to Make issue more clear. Appreciate all your help and experience. Thank you.

OK….  @danwegand   Reread, later on, my previous post….i did an edit…..but that made ONE Thing pop out.  And this has plagued folks for years….do this immediately…..BTW…I’m helping someone else understand a newer MH…so my brain gets confused and mixes two circuits.

Checking voltage is good….but, isolating and finding where or what causes it….equally important.  I’m in the Do THIS and THIS….and if we don’t find it, the tightening snd PM was NOT A WASTE.  

I am still a bit confused….so, humor me….you plan to drive home with no front outlets….as the GFCI will trip with the front AC on.  But you also can run the Front AC for comfort and the refrigerator works….I take that to mean you have a residential or did you mean that the heaters in the presumed Norcold gas are on.  If you have a residential refrigerator, will it also run on Inverter….no shore or genny?  Curiosity but for a reason.  But do the following ASAP, OR WHEN CONVENIENT.  THIS IS ACTUALLY, IF I could easily go back and edit…your next step.  Hold on to the previous post(s) but try this

TURN BACK ON THE WD breaker & Block heater breakers..  Assume you don’t have one….or maybe it is not working. Turn back on the block heater….it looks OFF.  CRAZY.  YES.  DO IT.

If ALL the breakers are NOT ON, even with nothing connected….it drives the EMS crazy.  Now….is that the culprit…..who knows…but a “gremlin” in the EMS MAY BE faking out the GFCI.  ESPECIALLY if it got cantankerous as I suspect it is…BUT.   Before you do anything else….try this.

TURN ON the W/D breaker & Block heater breakers.  IF you have two switches for the “water heater”…and that means you do NOT have an Aquahot, then make sure both the 12 VDC & 120 VAC switches are OFF.  IF you have an AquaHot, turn OFF the 120 VAC switch and turn on the DIESEL. WAIT until the diesel burner, if it comes on, cycles and shuts off.  Do NOT use any HOT water until this test is over. NOW, TURN OFF ALL AC’s using the ZONE and then the MODE buttons.  Then remove all power from the CG.  Turn off (yes…it is hot…do this later on when cooler or at dusk) BOTH Battery Switches.  Wait 5 minutes.  Turn on the HOUSE….then turn ON the Chassis.  Let it sit for a few minutes.   Start Genny.  Turn ON the REAR AC (you said that works)….then  wait….turn on the FRONT AC.  That is the one that is causing an issue.  Did that fix it.  Post the results…   Stop here and will THINK….

BTW….there are TWO LINES from the generator.  One has the front AC and one the rear.  There is also a segregation in the sub panel.  A picture of the inside would be nice.  BUT the rear AC is on LINE 2.  BEST I can “figure out”, so if the FRONT GFCI breaker….don’t ask for a detailed explanation yet…I’m still reviewing and confirming my HUNCH….and YES….BACK on shore…you may need to do a simple 10 minute test where you turn off a breaker and then check some.  No meters or such.  

PLEASE REREAD my edited  previous post for content and understanding…..

Good luck….let us know….and I reserve the right to say that some of my comments in the previous post…may be wrong….hard to speculate but we’re getting there….

 

[Tom Cherry]

FWIW.  Good buddy @jacwjames and I talked.  He had a rough schematic of his 2002 Windsor Subpanel and we sorted it out.  The 30 Amp DUAL (Line 1 and Line 2) breakers feed the Inverter.  THEN there is a 30 Amp (#10 wire) feed...or DUAL OUT to a subpanel.  That is where the Breaker (GFCI) is giving @danwegand fits.  SO, here, based on Jim's line drawing and us consorting...what we THINK that the SubPanel looks like or is "wired".  Pardon the hand written....I had "people" that did my AutoCad work for me...and never mastered it...  LOL>

He and I have a "similar" idea of what is happening, but Dan needs to provide some input...and run, when he can, the simple test and reboot of the EMS system.

IF THAT FAILS...then he can try what I outlined previously...as after he gave more details the problem is getting closer to a solution.  The PM that is needed after 17 years of neglect is essential.  ALSO, checking the brand of the ATS...

THEN, we will try one last thing...and if we are right...fix it.  IF NOT...then he has a major problem and it is impossible to troubleshoot online....

That's the update.  Here is the Circuit...

@Frank McElroy  Add or include this with existing or make a new file. Thanks

2002 & 2003 Windsor Sub Panel Circuit.pdf

[danwegand]

EMS was by passed years ago by my RV repair people, transfer case also replaced.

What is an ATS?

AC have been replaced both, Coleman with independent thermostats

will leave GFI off on return trip home. 
 

to clarify: front AC was problem on trip out. But has run like a champ on shore power no issues of any sort.

Thanks Dan Wegand 2003 Windsor

[96 EVO]

ATS = Automatic Transfer Switch or what your calling a 'transfer case'.

[Tom Cherry]

4 minutes ago, danwegand said:

EMS was by passed years ago by my RV repair people, transfer case also replaced.

What is an ATS?

AC have been replaced both, Coleman with independent thermostats

will leave GFI off on return trip home. 
 

to clarify: front AC was problem on trip out. But has run like a champ on shore power no issues of any sort.

Thanks Dan Wegand 2003 Windsor

Since you are new and not familiar with how the Group Dynamics work, I will start off and say...

This topic is really at a standstill until we have the complete picture.  Jim J and I talked for almost an hour yesterday.  Jim is a 2002 Windsor owner and very electrically savvy and made some repairs that I and other would marvel at.  He was the member that I sought out to help you.  I wrote the rest of this FIRST and added this opening comment for understanding of how we help out folks.  Ordinarily, at this point, we the "Moderating Staff" suggest or discourage more comments until someone, one or us or a knowledgable member, can contact you off line and talk over the phone and help you resolve it.  That is the "Moderators" request.  I will help you after you do the basics and/or, not speaking for Jim, suspect he will.  Thanks for understand this...now read on and the two things that you need to do for either one of us to help you are listed.

THANKS...

That is where it is NOW...but Jim and I are both of the opinion that there are TWO fundamental and OK...to clarify...but to ask a question or two...

Your EMS controls are TOTALLY removed...so all the AC Circuits are wired directly to the Breakers and NOT to the 4 relays on the EMS board????.  IF that is the case, then the elusive gremlin that I conjured up as well as discussed with Jim J is not a factor.  SO, please make sure that we are talking the same thing....You have absolutely NO Load Shedding and the EMS does NOT have any AC leads in and OUT.  That is the board on the RIGHT if you remove the cover.  THEREFORE...IF SO, then the Hard Reset (which was the ON and OFF and WAIT) that I recommended but didn't specifically call out by name is NOT necessary.  AND we just eliminated a Gremlin.

NEXT UP....GOING OUT ON A LIMB.  You have a BAD GFCI.  The easiest FIX....replace BOTH OF THEM.  They are NOT that expensive and a heck of a lot cheaper than paying a tech to chase or perhaps even the time to do all the grunt Troubleshooting work.  They ARE (assuming never replaced) OLD.  They can decide to work fine one day and then shut down and be crotchety and erratic the next.  SIMPLE...and Jim and I both agree...it needs to be done.

NEXT is the PM on all your Panels.  THAT IS A MUST....you will have far less future issues.  Who KNOWS...you may have a High resistance connection (loose wire) now.  NO OFFENSE to your Tech.  YES...look for LOOSE WIRES.  BUT, the ONLY sure way to prevent a high resistance connection is to do a PM (Preventative Maintenance) and  TIGHTEN ALL OF THEM...

OK...your text is a bit confusing.  You do NOT have a TRANSFER CASE in the Monaco.  A TRANSFER CASE is the device that allows you to select Rear Wheel or Four Wheel (Front Axle) in a FOUR WHEEL (not ALL WHEEL) drive vehicle.  

You DO have an ATS (Automatic TRANSFER SWITCH).  Your Original one was an IOTA.  GOOD DEAL it was replaced....but some folks did, very few, replace them when they failed with a NEW IOTA...and that was eventually a fire hazard and Recall.  Look for your ATS (where the Tech told you to look for "Hot Spots".  IF, by some chance it is an IOTA...then a problem... IF NOT...GOOD TO GO.

NOW...a bit of education or explanation....you also have an Automatic Transfer Switch in the Inverter.  When there is AC power...that ATS is closed and all is well and the incoming SHORE / Genny is passed THROUGH the Inverter...and those two circuits (see the diagram I posted) go directly to the SUB PANEL.  BUT, when on Inverter, the INVERTER provides INVERTED 12 VDC POWER.

OK....what does all that mean and how does it impact you and what is the solution.  WE HAVEN'T A CLUE until we get more information.  

Once you do the PM and all is well and then REPLACE BOTH GFCI Breakers and it is STILL THERE....we have a THEORY.... and if may not be easy or cheap, so why go looking for something that is NOT wrong in the WRONG place...thus the KISS principle.

BUT, rather than chasing a ghost (as Jim did and it was a PITA fix...that he was qualified and figured out HOW TO DO), we suggest you do these two things.  

There COULD be a problem in the Generator.  There could be a chafed and "barely touching" wires in the wiring from the Generator to the ATS....there could be a MIRAD of problems.  BUT, we can't or don't want to start looking for elusive ghosts, presumably, in the Generator or the cabling....UNTIL YOU DO THE ABOVE.

The fact that it works FINE on SHORE is GREAT.  BUT, expending any MONEY or TIME is not the way we, Jim, ..a 2002 Windsor owner and I would do it. The fact that BOTH the Kitchen GFCI and the Front AC are on the LINE 1 incoming circuit on the main panel has now been confirmed...after a lot of research.

BUT, the fact it only shows up on GENNY is the unknown.  IF the EMS for the Front AC has been bypassed...then the transient spike that occurs when you start up the front AC (the normal 15 Amp running current will spike to over 35 amps...and if you have a bad capacitor...it can go higher or WILL NOT WORK) will cause all sorts of issues....downstream or upstream...and it CAN really irritate a GFCI...if it is old.  

That's it.  Run the Rear AC.  That is on LINE 2, it SHOULD NOT impact the problem....but if it DOES...we need to know that.

The solution will probably be simple...but getting all the facts and nuances...piecemeal, makes it tough for the folks, like I, that understand, to comprehend it.

It sounds like you can make it home.  BUT, then, the grunt work of troubleshooting begins...or you pay a tech...

Let us know...

Thanks 

[danwegand]

Thank you for great explanation! Will do grunt work and GFI’s when home.

appreciate your time and effort and everyone’s help. Thanks, Dan.