Magnum ME 2012 Inverter Issues - 2005 Diplomat. Help needed….

[Rick A]

I've been through the recent thread on CGI inverter issues to no avail.  
My Magnum ME Series has has me trapped. I'll go ahead and explain the issue.

We had this unit for 10 years never had electrical issue except for the odd overload trip.

I switched my kettle on and it took the 120-volt power in the kitchen and washroom down.   

The microwave is still functional.

The GFI didn't trip.

All the main DB circuit breakers are functioning.

The charger is working charging the batteries.

The charger and inverter lights are on. No power in the kitchen or CGI washroom.

If I switch the main Inverter Switch off, it defaults to inverting and the kitchen or CGI  washroom all work BUT
the charger does not light up or charge.

Both the inverter and the charger work independently.
The CHARGER works when the DB switch (labelled inverter) is ON but not the INVERTER.
When I switch the DB switch (labelled inverter) OFF the CHARGER goes off (logical?) and the INVERTER works.

Did VOM reading on all lines (16 volts) but will not work independently.

Could you please advise me where to go from here?

Rick

[MurrayD]

There are 2 breakers on the Magnum, microwave and bathroom/kitchen, have you checked them, they are push to reset breakers?

[Rick A]

When I did a hard start on the unit it completely reset the unit and all the breakers had popped out. I reset them but it didn't fix my problem.

[96 EVO]

Did you reset your GFCI after rebooting the inverter / charger?

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, Rick A said:

I've been through the recent thread on CGI inverter issues to no avail.  
My Magnum ME Series has has me trapped. I'll go ahead and explain the issue.

We had this unit for 10 years never had electrical issue except for the odd overload trip.

I switched my kettle on and it took the 120-volt power in the kitchen and washroom down.   

The microwave is still functional.

The GFI didn't trip.

All the main DB circuit breakers are functioning.

The charger is working charging the batteries.

The charger and inverter lights are on. No power in the kitchen or CGI washroom.

If I switch the main Inverter Switch off, it defaults to inverting and the kitchen or CGI  washroom all work BUT
the charger does not light up or charge.

Both the inverter and the charger work independently.
The CHARGER works when the DB switch (labelled inverter) is ON but not the INVERTER.
When I switch the DB switch (labelled inverter) OFF the CHARGER goes off (logical?) and the INVERTER works.

Did VOM reading on all lines (16 volts) but will not work independently.

Could you please advise me where to go from here?

Rick

My brain didn’t take all of this in….so, for my benefit….

This is a rig with 19 YO inverter.  You have not had any issues…except an “overload”. That came from a “kettle” which I assume was a high demand, maybe 1800 watt “heater” coil.  That took out the interior outlets.  The microwave was OK.  The GFCI didn’t trip.

I’m trying to reconstruct, but so we’re all on the same page.

Power(AC)  comes in on the ATS and goes directly to the DB or it more commonly called, the MP or Main Panel. There is a 30 A circuit breaker, usually on the Line 2 leg.  That goes directly to the Magnum.  There is a “PIN” style circuit breaker lableled as INCOMING on the Magnum.  It is rated at 30 A.  That protects the Magnum.

Inside the Magnum is an ATS mounted on the main Control or Printed Circuit Board.  That ATS is Normally Closed. The Magnum “HAS” to see two voltage conditions to keep that ATS closed….  One is a “functional” house bank.  The Magnum has to read around 12 VDC.  Didn’t say perfect or fully charged….just a battery that has a charge or will “take a charge”.  The second is that there is 120 VAC between the Hot (black) and Neutral (white” on the incoming power…as in the main 30 amp feeder breaker and the pin 30 A are NOT tripped.

THEN the inverter keeps the ATS closed and the power is split into TWO circuits.  One is the Microwave.  That is a direct line to the microwave outlet. That power DOES go out a piece of Romex and one of the 20 (usually) A pin breakers.  They may be 15….it depends on the year.  The OTHER side of the split feed is to the OTHER piece of Romex.  That line has the OTHER pin breaker protecting it.  It goes to the GFCI in the Vanity.  ODDS ARE, there is ONE INCOMING (LINE) and TWO pieces of Romex on the GFCI “Load” terminals.  One of these goes to the interior outlets near a source of water.  The other goes to the Refrogerator ICEMAKER outlet behind the refrigerator….  This is NOT the “refrigerator” outlet….that is fed from a 10 or 15 A breaker in the Main Panel.  The TV might also be on that other LOAD LINE.  NOW, Monaco had some crazy circuits and had TWO GFCI’s on some 2004 - 6 Diplomats.  SO, without the specific prints on yours or more information! I can only say “TYPICAL”.

MY HYPOTHESIS….you tripped a PIN breaker when you overloaded the GFCI circuit….without knowing what else was on, it is anybody’s guess.  BTW, some folks have been confused…and plugged in the heaters (on a Gas/Electric) refrigerator to the ICEMAKER outlet.  That would easily trip the 20  breaker.

Folks have mentioned and you said you did a hard reset.  There a couple of things to consider….it is a RARITY that all the pin breaker POP during a Hard reset.  So, lets keep it as plain and simple as possible…..and do the following.  UNPLUG every thing from all internal outlets.  That includes the TV and even phone chargers.  UNPLUG the Microwave.  UNLPLUG BOTH plugs for the refrigerator.  Mark which one came from which receptacle.  There should be a tag identifying which wire is which and the outlets should be labeled.  But unplug everything.

The “Magnum” Hard Reset says NO AC power.  Lets follow that.  Trip or turn off the 30 A main Panel Inverter circuit.

NOW….disconnect BOTH Negative and Positive cables from the back of the Inverter.  Remove the Battery Temp Sensor phone line.

Leave that sucker OFF for an hour. NOPE…that is not what the manual says…but I’ve had conversations with many Magnum techs and some say…..leave it OFF for an hour to bleed off any stored charge.  There have been several members that did the 5 minute OFF and it did not work,  at least 5, that I recall, used the 60 minute rule.  That fixed theirs…..and they are still working.  They were the age of yours.

NOW….after an hour, hook back up the battery cables.  Do NOT plug back in the Battery Temp line. Turn on the 30 Amp breaker….   Then push and hold in a a few seconds the power button.  Then go inside…..turn on the Inverter and charger buttons.  Both green lights should be ON.  You will probably be charging.

Go to the following.  Follow the instructions and verify you have your remote and the parameters set properly……scroll dow for the “rest”

Plug in the Microwave.  Put a cup of water in for 2 minutes…..test that circuit.

Now, verify that the GFCI is “reset”.  Use a phone charger to verify that you have power on the GCFI.  BTW. Most folks routinely replace the GFCI after 10 years.  Only use a Hubbell or Eaton Wiring Devices or a Leviton. I used to work for Cooper Industry….and Eaton bought Cooper.  Therefore the Magnum Approved GFCI were printed as Cooper Wiring Devices. I have been in several of the CWD plants and talked to their design engineers.  I prefer them.  IF you order a NEW ONE….mark the cables on the LOAD side (label molded into the back). Label the LINE.  Several GFCI manufacturers have had to “reverse” the LINE and LOAD.  Building or Code inspectors wanted the GROUND pin UP.  So, just read the label and rewire or install corrextly.

OK….did the TV work?  If so, buy a 120 VAC Receptacle Tester…$5 or so on Amazon or at Lowes or an ACE.  Use that tester to check every outlet inside.  Not a big deal, but we need to eliminate any bad outlets….that DOES happen.

Now….start small and test every outlet with a lamp or a small wattage (say 1000 watts or lower) hair dryer.  Then make sure you know WHICH outlet or receptacle is the HEATER POWER.  Turn OFF the Refrigerator 10 or 15 amp breaker.  Test and find the “dead” one. The other is the Icemaker outlet and should be OK.  Plug innthe ICEMAKER cord to it.  Plug the heater or Refrigerator line into the other….turn on the main panel Refrigerator outlet.

SOMETIMES there is a NonLETHAL leak in the icemaker mold heater.  That often TRIPS GFCI, especially the older ones…..if you use the icemaker and there is a leak, then every half hour, it MIGHT trip the GFCI.  There is a SIMPLE fix for this…but a new GFCI works better.

That’s it…

Report back….

[Rick A]

Thank you Tom. My head is spinning so tomorrow I’m going to diligently work through your masterpiece to ensure I do it justice. I’ll need a day or two get this done. Thank you Sir for the help.🙏🏻

Rick. 

[Rick A]

4 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Did you reset your GFCI after rebooting the inverter / charger?

I did, but it still refuse to obey my commands. 🤣🤣

[MyronTruex]

With the manual, you will likely find a small power strip behind a cover on the Magnum. There you can see if you are getting 120 volts out on each line. 

I had a wire melt off one of the pin breakers. This left me with just one leg. 

[Rick A]

Thanks. I think that may be what my problem is but I'm going to work my way through Toms diagnostics first.

I  certainly keep active.

[Tom Cherry]

9 minutes ago, Rick A said:

Thanks. I think that may be what my problem is but I'm going to work my way through Toms diagnostics first.

I  certainly keep active.

Myron brings up a good point.  However, I didn't know your level of "comprehending my OVERKILL" suggestions. SO....follow his advice.

Verify the Inverter Breaker is ON.  Then, assuming you are experienced or comfortable with LIVE VOLTAGE TESTING (my exposure to Product Liability Lawyers warped my personality...LOL), then TEST for the Incoming voltages. You MIGHT want to pull the panel with NO POWER...Inspect and then actually TIGHTEN the connections.  These are solid conductors....but even they, over time, can loosen and strange things happen. 

I still am having difficulty in wrapping my head around a Hard Restart causing all breaker (Pin if I read correctly) to BLOW.  You MIGHT find some "Smoked stuff" and that is only what a VISUAL will tell you.  If you disconnect the POSITIVE and NEGATIVE...., then the Inverter will OPEN up the ATS.  Then you could measure the INCOMING without having thing POP.

But, if you want to do the measurement NOW.  120 Black to White (on each mating pair). THEN, measure the BLACK to Ground.  All should be 120 VAC.

On the OUTGOING side, there is a COMMON Neutral. BOTH Hot 1 and Hot 2 to NEUTRAL (common) as well as the GROUND should be 120 VAC.  THE incoming is from the Main Panel Breaker....and the INCOMING Pin Breaker is down stream. The OUTGOING is from the Inverter, but DOES go through the TWO Pin Breakers as it is the output of the Inverter. See the diagram below

magnum-me-AC POWER TERMINALS.pdf

[Rick A]

Thanks Tom. I'm busy sitting out the 60 minute "sin bin" penalty for tripping this thing with the kettle. 🙃🤣

I am pretty handy with all the electrical safety and I would NOT call your advice as OVERKILL. I'm good with more info than less.

Maybe I need to get a reconditioned/new inverter?

We never use the inverter because we never dry camp!

Could I just rewire the two 15 amp lines OUT and connect to the a sub panel fed off the MB?

As soon as I am through I will reply.

Edited January 29 by Rick A

[Rick A]

Went thru all the steps, and it looked like it was going to work but lasted about 15 seconds and failed. No pins tripped.

 

[MyronTruex]

By failing, you mean you lost voltage on one circuit?

If so, find the panel on the inverter and see if you have voltage coming out there. 

If you have lost power at that power strip inside the inverter, turn off your batteries and 30 amp breaker that feeds the inverter and remove the cover of the inverter. (or disconnect shoreline for safety) Look at the wires going  to the pin switches as well as looking and smelling for  any clues.

Beyond that, a replacement with a pure sine wave one would be a good option. 

I would not recommend combing the circuits but it is your RV. 

[Tom Cherry]

36 minutes ago, Rick A said:

Went thru all the steps, and it looked like it was going to work but lasted about 15 seconds and failed. No pins tripped.

 

OK....as Myron said....."WHAT FAILED"

Step by step... 

Inverter Breaker ON in Main Panel

Voltage CHECK (VOM) on HOT 1 & HOT2....then Black to GROUND....should have 120 VAC.

WHAT is SHOWING UP ON THE DISPLAY.  Picture would be great

Voltage CHECK (VOM) on the OUTGOING Hot 1 and Hot 2 to the COMMON Neutral....and then to GROUND.  Should have 120 VAC

ARE ALL THE PIN CB PUSHED IN....FIRMLY and SOLIDLY.  DO NOT DEPEND ON VISUAL....PUSH THEM PUPPIES IN.

OK....do you have the VOLTAGES on the terminals UNDER the Removable PANEL  the PICTURE?

NOW....do you have POWER to the MICROWAVE?  YES or NO.

Is the POWER on the GFCI?  Did you try to RESET IT?  

NOW....Remove the cover from the GFCI and CAREFULLY, it is LIVE, take it out.....  Use the VOM and see if you have voltage (Black to WHITE and Black to GROUND) on the LINE Side Terminals YES OR NO..  

THEN REPORT BACK....just the basics....we need to see where to help you or advise you.  

Please answer each one above with a YES or NO or make a comment....

Thanks....

[Rick A]

2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

OK....as Myron said....."WHAT FAILED"

Just to clarify:

• If the MB Inverter breaker is ON I have no power in the unit.
• If the MB Inverter breaker is OFF I have inverted battery power in both lines.  

Yes mild burnt smell.

Step by step... 

Inverter Breaker ON in Main Panel  Yes

Voltage CHECK (VOM) on HOT 1 ZERO & HOT2 120 VAC....then Black to GROUND....should have 120 VAC.

• HOT 1 to ground 2.0?  
• HOT 2 to ground 120 VAC

WHAT is SHOWING UP ON THE DISPLAY.  Picture would be great Photo 1

Voltage CHECK (VOM) on the OUTGOING Hot 1 and Hot 2 to the COMMON Neutral....and then to GROUND.  Should have 120 VAC

• No HOT 1 reads 2.0
• Yes Other read 120 VAC

ARE ALL THE PIN CB PUSHED IN....FIRMLY and SOLIDLY.  DO NOT DEPEND ON VISUAL....PUSH THEM PUPPIES IN. YES. The 30 amp pin is not the same as CB 1 or CB 2.

OK....do you have the VOLTAGES on the terminals UNDER the Removable PANEL  the PICTURE?  Photo 2

NOW....do you have POWER to the MICROWAVE?  YES or NO.

Is the POWER on the GFCI? No Did you try to RESET IT?  YES

When the MB breaker is off it works.

NOW....Remove the cover from the GFCI and CAREFULLY, it is LIVE, take it out.....  Use the VOM and see if you have voltage (Black to WHITE and Black to GROUND) on the LINE Side Terminals YES OR NO..  

ONLY When the MB breaker is off it reads 120 VAC.

THEN REPORT BACK....just the basics....we need to see where to help you or advise you.  

Please answer each one above with a YES or NO or make a comment....

Thanks....

 

Edited January 29 by Rick A

[Rick A]

Thank you Tom and Myron for your help.

I'm taking this sick puppy to the Magnum People to get their techs to find the problem. It looks like it's better to replace it with a newer unit.

[Rick A]

Spoke with a technician in Vancouver BC. Told me to switch the power OFF,  disconnect the batteries AND wait 15 minutes, as Tom advised, then remove the housing cover and see if I could see anything. Well right there in front of me was a burnt crimp connector on the circuit board. Photo 3. Probably a loose connection and a Moisture issue.

Going to replace the short red piece of wire (4.5") that goes from the circuit board plug to the power 'slot' as per Photo 4.

Will get the correct materials in the AM.

I hope this will fix the issue and I'll update you when this is done.

 

Rick

[Rick A]

The help I got from Tom and Myron was absolutely spectacular. It was their advice and knowledge that gave me the inspiration to “look under the hood”. 
Thank you. 
I hope this solves it. 

[MyronTruex]

I am a bit concerned with the spade connection on the circuit board. My issue is the heat may have traveled through into the circuit board but fixing the connector is the first place to start. I have no idea on how difficult it is to get to the circuit board without more pictures. I do have a video on my youtube page. It is not my video but one from someone else. It is very technical and interesting. 

[Rick A]

Hi Myron,

I managed to get the circuit board out and there were no burn marks on the underside. It was a process of photographing everything to ensure it all returned the way it came out. I observed, (neophyte) that the spade connection must have been working its way loose for some and then at the appointed time and day 😆 burnt the connection where the wire and the spade connection joined. It had burnt it off.

I put it all back together and it didn't work, because I forgot to push the pin connecters IN. Wow, after all that.

The help I got from Tom and  Myron was spectacular. It was their advice and knowledge that inspired me to “look under the hood”. 

It's working like a charm and my knowledge of inverters is greatly expanded.
Thank you. 

 

[Tom Cherry]

18 minutes ago, Rick A said:

Hi Myron,

I managed to get the circuit board out and there were no burn marks on the underside. It was a process of photographing everything to ensure it all returned the way it came out. I observed, (neophyte) that the spade connection must have been working its way loose for some and then at the appointed time and day 😆 burnt the connection where the wire and the spade connection joined. It had burnt it off.

I put it all back together and it didn't work, because I forgot to push the pin connecters IN. Wow, after all that.

The help I got from Tom and  Myron was spectacular. It was their advice and knowledge that inspired me to “look under the hood”. 

It's working like a charm and my knowledge of inverters is greatly expanded.
Thank you. 

 

Next up, since you are learning. Check the GFCI.  Replace, if you haven’t already, with a Hubbell, Leviton or Eaton Wiring Devices.  If you have TWO pieces or Romex Cables on the LOAD Terminals, the temporarily  wire nut ONE of the LOAD Romex’s to the LINE Romex.  Then see which portion of the internal outlets work.  If the ones near the sinks or sources of water are OK, then check the Refrigerator ICEMAKER CIRCUIT.  That one should be dead.  You need to determine which Romex is for the sink or near water receptacles and which is the ICEMAKER and TV. 

The goal or objective is to provide power via the GFCI to the receptacles inside the MH near water.  That is a code requirement.  The other LOAD circuit is or typically is, the ICEMAKER circuit….and usually the front TV.  

That circuit is to be connected on the LINE SIDE or Terminals.  Then the GFCI will not “false positive” trip if there is, and eventually is or will be, a NON LETHAL leak in the heater mold of the ICEMAKER cavity.

This resolves most if not all of the nuisance trips.  These “trips” are at least 25% of the “outlets and GFCI keep tripping” posts here.

Good Job.  Keep learning.

[Rick A]

Last Important snippet of advice on this topic.

I discussed with Magnum Support why this "burn/short" might have happened. The wire is aluminum, this raised concerns for me because Al wire oxidizes and corrodes over time.

They advised me that it is safe to replace this with copper.

This was a simple fix IF you stick to Tom and Myron's advice and SWITCH everything off and wait 60 minutes to de-energize the entire inverter.

Caveat: The responsibility falls on your head.