John C Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 Could someone here please tell me what is the shock model number for 2007 Dynasty ? I bought Bilstein 24-187312 Shock , Yellow because a lot of people have post that is the shock for both front & rear, now I believe I may have bought the wrong shock. The reason is following: Bilstein 24-187312 Shock new shock is almost identical to the my old shock, but there is one difference: the old shock doesn't have steel sleeve inside the eye while the new shock has it, because the old shock doesn't have the steel sleeve, the bolt go through the eye is bigger and it can't fit the eye of the new shock, I decided me buy a new bolt to fit the new shock sleeve , now a few more people suggested me that I should use the old bolt because it fit the chassis and the smaller bolt may have problem late on. So I called Bilstain support, here is what they told me I may have the wrong shock . I should always use the old bolt I should not pull the steel sleeve out of eye because that will destroy the rubber brushing, because the bushing is melt with the steel sleeve when they make it. So if it is the right shock, which I still believe it is, it is catch 22, I can't remove the steel sleeve, but I have to use the bigger bolt, which is too big. what do I do? Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito.a Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 (edited) I used Bilstein shock part number 24-187312 on the rear. The upper shock eye is 18.1mm ID without the steel sleeve. With the sleeve installed the ID is about .510". A 1/2" diameter bolt fits through very nicely. The originally installed Bilstein shocks did not have the steel bushing and the rubber inserts pounded out. All of the new designed Bilstein comfort control shocks have a steel bushing inside the upper rubber grommet. The nitrogen preload is also not as high as the originals. I can compress a new Bilstein shock with aprox 30# of pressure and when released, it extends slowly. This is just enough to prevent gas bubbles. What is the outside diameter of your shock mount bolts? What is the inside diameter of your new shocks with the steel sleeve installed? A thought: How do you know the mount bolts are are original and even if they are how do you know if they were the correct ones? I would not put a lot of confidence in the phone advice you received from Bilstein. Phone support is the luck of the draw and chances are he/she has never seen a Monaco coach. Good luck! Edited May 15 by vito.a 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacwjames Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 I had this application chart in my files, the shocks you list are the ones showing in the guide. Bilstein Application chart shocks.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted May 15 Author Share Posted May 15 (edited) 48 minutes ago, vito.a said: I used Bilstein shock part number 24-187312 on the rear. The upper shock eye is 18.1mm ID without the steel sleeve. With the sleeve installed the ID is about .510". A 1/2" diameter bolt fits through very nicely. The originally installed Bilstein shocks did not have the steel bushing and the rubber inserts pounded out. All of the new designed Bilstein comfort control shocks have a steel bushing inside the upper rubber grommet. The nitrogen preload is also not as high as the originals. I can compress a new Bilstein shock with aprox 30# of pressure and when released, it extends slowly. This is just enough to prevent gas bubbles. What is the outside diameter of your shock mount bolts? What is the inside diameter of your new shocks with the steel sleeve installed? A thought: How do you know the mount bolts are are original and even if they are how do you know if they were the correct ones? I would not put a lot of confidence in the phone advice you received from Bilstein. Phone support is the luck of the draw and chances are he/she has never seen a Monaco coach. Good luck! outside diameter of my old mount bolts is about 15/16 inside diameter of my new shocks with the steel sleeve installed is about 3/4, that is my new bolt size The different between the new bolt & old bolt is 25% which is very significant. No I don't known if the old bolt is original or not, but it will be quite a effort to enlarge the hole on the chassis that much and I checked the holes on the chassis, it doesn't look has been modified. The reason I believe the tech is it is kind of make sense, all bolt size on the coach must have been calculated by engineer, it is OK to upsize it, but to downsize it by 25% maybe OK, but maybe not OK. How did you install your shock if the old bolt is much bigger than the new one? Thank you 42 minutes ago, jacwjames said: I had this application chart in my files, the shocks you list are the ones showing in the guide. Bilstein Application chart shocks.pdf 6.26 MB · 0 downloads Thank you! but million $ question is how do I use the old bolt on the new shock?I really hate to downsize the bolt by 25% in diameter. Edited May 15 by John C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J A Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 (edited) https://sourcerv.com/ can help you. Edited May 15 by Paul J A clarify 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 1 hour ago, John C said: Could someone here please tell me what is the shock model number for 2007 Dynasty ? I bought Bilstein 24-187312 Shock , Yellow because a lot of people have post that is the shock for both front & rear, now I believe I may have bought the wrong shock. The reason is following: Bilstein 24-187312 Shock new shock is almost identical to the my old shock, but there is one difference: the old shock doesn't have steel sleeve inside the eye while the new shock has it, because the old shock doesn't have the steel sleeve, the bolt go through the eye is bigger and it can't fit the eye of the new shock, I decided me buy a new bolt to fit the new shock sleeve , now a few more people suggested me that I should use the old bolt because it fit the chassis and the smaller bolt may have problem late on. So I called Bilstain support, here is what they told me I may have the wrong shock . I should always use the old bolt I should not pull the steel sleeve out of eye because that will destroy the rubber brushing, because the bushing is melt with the steel sleeve when they make it. So if it is the right shock, which I still believe it is, it is catch 22, I can't remove the steel sleeve, but I have to use the bigger bolt, which is too big. what do I do? Thank you! EDIT….after I posted this….I did some searching here. READ THIS….Source has a shock for a 2007 Executive…..and all the Dynasty and ABOVE was on the same basic chassis…..you need to read the entirety of my post for the history……but, you BEST option….Source Shocks. Send the incorrect Bilsteins BACK….. NOW, you might call Koni and find out what they recommend and then have them send you the prints or a spec sheet and compare. BUT the Koni’s are in the same price range as the Source and there is NO COMPARISON….Source is designed for the Roadmaster chassis. As I said before….there were issues with one member’s shocks and Source Engineering could not get the correct shock, specially valved to their proprietary “design”….but that was only one instance out of hundreds of posts on shocks, Bilstein did NOT MAKE a shock with the “mounting brackets” or holes that would FIT. YES…You pulled off Bilsteins. BUT if the OEM shock was a special run for Monaco….and design changes were made later on, then, Bilstein may have discarded the tooling and is now, based on demand, offering it. The Source special shocks may NOT WORK, but you have a vender that actually KNOWS something. NOW….Did Bilstein give you the correct PN. Bilstein actually had a Motor Home shock specialist in 2012. I talked to 2 distributors….who ran the largest Bilstein replacement stores. Neither ONE would sell me shocks without calling the MH specialist. They gave me his contact info. He spent an hour on the phone with me. He was involved when Source contracted Bilstein to make the “roadmaster” special shock. We had members back then that drove to Oregon and Source used their MH as well as buying and renting others. A team of owners, professional paid drivers/testers and Source crew and Bilstein tested and finally settled in on the valving. This was a multi week or maybe a month long project. Bilstein’s OTR Shock trailer was on site and the techs. BTW, every NASCAR team has a clean room and two special shock techs. They work with the crew chief and the driver and custom build, for virtually every track, the shocks for the cars. The driver’s skills and driving traits play heavily. Toured Dale Earnhardt’s facility and we spent a lot of time talking. Some drivers like a shock that has the car in almost a controlled powerslide in every turn….others do NOT like the “let it all hangout” and like a tight suspension. They can’t “swap” cars….lap times decidely different. BOTTOM LINE. You have the wrong shocks. If Source says, after you measure, that they have the right shock….BUY IT. The Bilstein shock guru’s son had a Monaco and he ran the Source shocks at his dad’s recommendation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito.a Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 (edited) Both the bolt and the shock are 1/2", plus or minus a few thousandths. Place a digital caliper on the bolt and take a picture. Someone mismeasured. I highly doubt your bolts are 15/16". A 15/16" diameter bolt is huge! Edited May 15 by vito.a 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito.a Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 I've changed the shocks on several of these coaches and in light of this discussion thought it may help to post the procedures. Procedures for changing the rear drive axle shocks on an "S Series" chassis. It helps to first start the engine and raise the chassis all the way up on the air suspension. Installing Bilstein shock part number 24-187312 on the drive axle. There are four shocks on the rear drive axle, two in front and two on the rear of the axle (plus two more on the tag axle). The rear drive axle and the tag axle shocks only about 4" apart. Half the work installing them is crawling underneath only to find out you need a different socket or wrench. For these two shocks you need to raise the chassis all the way up on the air bags and place jack stands under the rear frame rail next to the engine mount. The top mounting studs are easy to unbolt. Use a 3/4" socket and a long (10-12") extension with a ratchet and you can unbolt the top nut from the outside standing there. Then just pull the shock off the stud. For the bottom bolt you will have to crawl underneath. You need a 7/8" wrench for the lock nut (not enough room for a ratchet & socket) and a 13/16" socket and long handle ratchet. These bolts are TIGHT! It would help to have a short pipe to place over the 7/8" wrench. Then tap the bolt out and remove the shock. The bottom mount is very close to the tag axle shock, but you can work the shock out. Then from outside install the new shock onto the top mounting stud and let the bottom hang loose near the bottom mount. Then install and tighten the 3/4" nut. The new shocks have a steel sleeve inside the rubber bushing both top and bottom. The original OEM Bilstein shocks do not have a steel sleeve on the top, so the nut was slightly loose and only tightening against the rubber. On mine the rubber on one shock was distorted and the shock was completely worn out. Now you need to get back underneath and lift the bottom of the shock up above the bottom mount and guide it in between the mount plates. It fits very tight in between the mount plates. Let the shock gas pressure preload push the shock down until the bolt is aligned. I used a large tapered punch to insert into the mount hole and pry the shock eye into alignment with the hole. Then tap the bolt in, nut towards the inside and install the 7/8" lock nut. I also like to coat the bolt and nut with anti-seize. Hope this helps! Think about this. IF the mounting bolt was 15/16" diameter, the bolt head would take a huge 1 1/2" socket, not the 3/4" socket and wrench that actually fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubflyer Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 3 hours ago, John C said: I may have the wrong shock . I should always use the old bolt I should not pull the steel sleeve out of eye because that will destroy the rubber brushing, because the bushing is melt with the steel sleeve when they make it. My feelings on this.... Bilstein's answers should have been: Make sure you have the right p/n shock, (you seem to).... The old bolt should fit (but in this case, I suspect an issue.., more later,..).... I agree that you should not be removing the sleeve, I suspect someone did that to your old (removed shocks). Questions: Is the hole size at both ends of the new shocks the same? Is the hole/bolt size the old shock where there is a steel sleeve the same size as the new shock bolts/holes?..... If so, there is no worry about bolt size carrying the load.... If it was mine, I would use bolts that fit the shock sleeve, if there are larger holes in the mounts on the motor home I would repair (down size with bushings or welding new plates with the correct size holes) I would not suggest just trying to tightening the bolts expecting them to not start sliding/banging around. Hope this helps. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 17 minutes ago, Cubflyer said: My feelings on this.... Bilstein's answers should have been: Make sure you have the right p/n shock, (you seem to).... The old bolt should fit (but in this case, I suspect an issue.., more later,..).... I agree that you should not be removing the sleeve, I suspect someone did that to your old (removed shocks). Questions: Is the hole size at both ends of the new shocks the same? Is the hole/bolt size the old shock where there is a steel sleeve the same size as the new shock bolts/holes?..... If so, there is no worry about bolt size carrying the load.... If it was mine, I would use bolts that fit the shock sleeve, if there are larger holes in the mounts on the motor home I would repair (down size with bushings or welding new plates with the correct size holes) I would not suggest just trying to tightening the bolts expecting them to not start sliding/banging around. Hope this helps. Ken This is a mystery and we all are trying to help...and we each, maybe, understand it a bit differently, as as Vito says, we need some REAL photos of how things were measured. My only comment is that... welding or working on a shock bracket and refabricating it is a skill that MANY welders do NOT have...and the working area, even with the wheels removed, might be tight...plus I worry (probably needlessly) about welders and MH and the potential for shorts or spikes. SO, I would add that IF the "refabricate" route is taken, then drive to Oregon (Hendersons) or Florida (Josams) and have THEM DO IT. YES, there are probably many well qualified shops elsewhere...BUT, we have had issues when folks had "Thingies" fixed. We ALSO have many members that are well qualified and have the tools and fabrication equipment to do exactly as you say... BUT, when a non qualified shop has done repairs...like "Hey, I KNOW how to straighten up that crooked rear axle", the results have been LESS than pleasant. One member trusted the shop to "lay down beads", which is the common fix...but the differential got way to hot. He had seals and issues later on and had to have the rear end rebuilt. SO....JUST a warning....and also from reading most every post over the past 15 years. I have NO IDEA, what the fix will be...but, like the bulk. The BUSHING in the NEW shock should be the SAME, within a few thousands...not SIXTEENTHS the same ID as the Bolt's OD. IF some PO owner did some crazy stuff....FINE. BUT, the BOLTS (the old ones) that came OUT SHOULD BE THE SAME Diameter as the holes in the mounts. THEN...if those Bolts will NOT FIT into the NEW SHOCK....then the shock has the WRONG hardware and is NOT MADE FOR THE MH... THIS IS VERY CRITICAL...and must, from a safety and ride comfort...be PROPERLY installed. NOW...I KNOW from another member's experience...and testing... YOU CAN DRIVE the MH without shocks. BUT, for the suspension to function as designed and for the shocks to WORK AS DESIGNED...the holes in the Mount MUST be the same DIAMETER as the BOLTS...and the BOLTS must fit snugly in the NEW shocks...with the FACTORY BUSHINGS. IF that don't work...then FIND THE CORRECT SHOCK...and Source seems to have that...based on another post... Maybe Koni does... Don't KNOW, but the PN's received and the hardware, appear to be totally imcompatible...and that is a MAJOR ISSUE.... That's as SIMPLE as I can, for my own understanding, say it... Thanks for your input.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted May 16 Author Share Posted May 16 16 minutes ago, vito.a said: I've changed the shocks on several of these coaches and in light of this discussion thought it may help to post the procedures. Procedures for changing the rear drive axle shocks on an "S Series" chassis. It helps to first start the engine and raise the chassis all the way up on the air suspension. Installing Bilstein shock part number 24-187312 on the drive axle. There are four shocks on the rear drive axle, two in front and two on the rear of the axle (plus two more on the tag axle). The rear drive axle and the tag axle shocks only about 4" apart. Half the work installing them is crawling underneath only to find out you need a different socket or wrench. For these two shocks you need to raise the chassis all the way up on the air bags and place jack stands under the rear frame rail next to the engine mount. The top mounting studs are easy to unbolt. Use a 3/4" socket and a long (10-12") extension with a ratchet and you can unbolt the top nut from the outside standing there. Then just pull the shock off the stud. For the bottom bolt you will have to crawl underneath. You need a 7/8" wrench for the lock nut (not enough room for a ratchet & socket) and a 13/16" socket and long handle ratchet. These bolts are TIGHT! It would help to have a short pipe to place over the 7/8" wrench. Then tap the bolt out and remove the shock. The bottom mount is very close to the tag axle shock, but you can work the shock out. Then from outside install the new shock onto the top mounting stud and let the bottom hang loose near the bottom mount. Then install and tighten the 3/4" nut. The new shocks have a steel sleeve inside the rubber bushing both top and bottom. The original OEM Bilstein shocks do not have a steel sleeve on the top, so the nut was slightly loose and only tightening against the rubber. On mine the rubber on one shock was distorted and the shock was completely worn out. Now you need to get back underneath and lift the bottom of the shock up above the bottom mount and guide it in between the mount plates. It fits very tight in between the mount plates. Let the shock gas pressure preload push the shock down until the bolt is aligned. I used a large tapered punch to insert into the mount hole and pry the shock eye into alignment with the hole. Then tap the bolt in, nut towards the inside and install the 7/8" lock nut. I also like to coat the bolt and nut with anti-seize. Hope this helps! Think about this. IF the mounting bolt was 15/16" diameter, the bolt head would take a huge 1 1/2" socket, not the 3/4" socket and wrench that actually fits. May not be exact 15/16" but should not be off by that much, I just ordered a digital caliper and will check with that tomorrow. I was put to wood on each side then checked the distance. Just got the bolt circumference by using a wire and wrapping around the old bolt, it is 2 7/8" 2 7/8 divide by 3.14 = diameter, it is 0.916, that is the diameter. 4 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said: This is a mystery and we all are trying to help...and we each, maybe, understand it a bit differently, as as Vito says, we need some REAL photos of how things were measured. My only comment is that... welding or working on a shock bracket and refabricating it is a skill that MANY welders do NOT have...and the working area, even with the wheels removed, might be tight...plus I worry (probably needlessly) about welders and MH and the potential for shorts or spikes. SO, I would add that IF the "refabricate" route is taken, then drive to Oregon (Hendersons) or Florida (Josams) and have THEM DO IT. YES, there are probably many well qualified shops elsewhere...BUT, we have had issues when folks had "Thingies" fixed. We ALSO have many members that are well qualified and have the tools and fabrication equipment to do exactly as you say... BUT, when a non qualified shop has done repairs...like "Hey, I KNOW how to straighten up that crooked rear axle", the results have been LESS than pleasant. One member trusted the shop to "lay down beads", which is the common fix...but the differential got way to hot. He had seals and issues later on and had to have the rear end rebuilt. SO....JUST a warning....and also from reading most every post over the past 15 years. I have NO IDEA, what the fix will be...but, like the bulk. The BUSHING in the NEW shock should be the SAME, within a few thousands...not SIXTEENTHS the same ID as the Bolt's OD. IF some PO owner did some crazy stuff....FINE. BUT, the BOLTS (the old ones) that came OUT SHOULD BE THE SAME Diameter as the holes in the mounts. THEN...if those Bolts will NOT FIT into the NEW SHOCK....then the shock has the WRONG hardware and is NOT MADE FOR THE MH... THIS IS VERY CRITICAL...and must, from a safety and ride comfort...be PROPERLY installed. NOW...I KNOW from another member's experience...and testing... YOU CAN DRIVE the MH without shocks. BUT, for the suspension to function as designed and for the shocks to WORK AS DESIGNED...the holes in the Mount MUST be the same DIAMETER as the BOLTS...and the BOLTS must fit snugly in the NEW shocks...with the FACTORY BUSHINGS. IF that don't work...then FIND THE CORRECT SHOCK...and Source seems to have that...based on another post... Maybe Koni does... Don't KNOW, but the PN's received and the hardware, appear to be totally imcompatible...and that is a MAJOR ISSUE.... That's as SIMPLE as I can, for my own understanding, say it... Thanks for your input.... Good point. I am removing 9 new shocks and putting all old shock back. Wasted 2 days and $100.00 for the new bolts. for one of the broken shock I have no choice but use the new shock. VERY FRUSTRATED!!! You don't know what you don't know! Because one of the old shocks broke, so I figured that I may as well replacing all of them, now I opened a whole new can of worms 46 minutes ago, Cubflyer said: My feelings on this.... Bilstein's answers should have been: Make sure you have the right p/n shock, (you seem to).... The old bolt should fit (but in this case, I suspect an issue.., more later,..).... I agree that you should not be removing the sleeve, I suspect someone did that to your old (removed shocks). Questions: Is the hole size at both ends of the new shocks the same? Is the hole/bolt size the old shock where there is a steel sleeve the same size as the new shock bolts/holes?..... If so, there is no worry about bolt size carrying the load.... If it was mine, I would use bolts that fit the shock sleeve, if there are larger holes in the mounts on the motor home I would repair (down size with bushings or welding new plates with the correct size holes) I would not suggest just trying to tightening the bolts expecting them to not start sliding/banging around. Hope this helps. Ken Yes, hole size at both ends of the new shocks the same, because the old shock doesn't have steel sleeve, the hole is much bigger, that is why it fit the old big bolt. Never done welding before and no sure I can do it. My guess is this is the wrong shock for my coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubflyer Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 2 hours ago, John C said: My guess is this is the wrong shock for my coach. I doubt the shock is wrong, most (all) shocks that have sleeves and bolts style mounts on both ends, they are the same size. I think some hack that installed your old shocks found the mount holes elongated and their solution was to open the holes up and knock the sleeves out of the shock rubber bushing and use larger diameter bolts…. Bushing the oversized holes down to the correct size should be easy, hardware stores carry bushings or tubing that can be cut down to be used. A pair of shouldered bushing and slightly longer bolts should do the trick. Ken 2 hours ago, John C said: I just ordered a digital caliper and will check with that tomorrow. I have found that open end wrenches work really good as a measuring device (go-no-go kind of measure). Example: 1/2” open end wrench on a 1/2” bolt shank… Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted May 16 Author Share Posted May 16 26 minutes ago, Cubflyer said: I doubt the shock is wrong, most (all) shocks that have sleeves and bolts style mounts on both ends, they are the same size. I think some hack that installed your old shocks found the mount holes elongated and their solution was to open the holes up and knock the sleeves out of the shock rubber bushing and use larger diameter bolts…. Bushing the oversized holes down to the correct size should be easy, hardware stores carry bushings or tubing that can be cut down to be used. A pair of shouldered bushing and slightly longer bolts should do the trick. Ken I have found that open end wrenches work really good as a measuring device (go-no-go kind of measure). Example: 1/2” open end wrench on a 1/2” bolt shank… Ken That is definitely possible, I did check the holes, it doesn't look like it has been enlarged but you never know for sure. One person with 2007 Beaver Patriot Thunder on Facebook had the same issue, he replied my post: "I h "had the same issue. Did by the shocks from Shock Warehouse. Ultimately had the bushing drilled out at a machine shop, works fine now." I looked at the new bolt & old bolt again, it doesn't look like the old bolt is 25% large than the new one, so I definitely measure it up with digital caliper, if the diameter difference is not that much, adding bushing maybe a good idea, then challenge is to find the steel bushing that will bridge the difference between the old bolt & new bolt I already replaced 4 new shocks with 4 old shocks, was planning to do the rest tomorrow, maybe i should put that on hold now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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