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White-Rogers 586-105111


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Some months back I installed a new White-Rogers 586-105111 because my house batteries were not charging while driving. I was very careful to take pix and reinstall the wires exactly as I found them. Everything appears to be working correctly or I haven't noticed something.

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While topping off the batteries today, I saw this as pictured below.  It looks like the unit fried.

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I took a volt meter (engine off) and found 12v between B&C , B&A, D&C, and D&A

A is house battery + and C is chassis battery +

I found continuity between B&D, B&GROUND, and D&GROUND and A&C

My concern is what looks like a spark occurred or the coil fried itself AND that the red wire from D and the black wire from B both go to the electrical unit I have labeled E.

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I'm no electrical whiz and am wondering if this is normal. I thought that when B&D had 12v the coil would connect A and C and energize E. But if both wires going to E are ground...??

What am I missing?

If you need more pix or more probing with the multi-meter, the coach is in my driveway and easy to get to.

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OK...  The COIL, I think, inside the White Rodgers got FRIED.  AND it appears to be shorted.  Basically here is what you said and what the Terminals. ARE. THIS IS GONNA BE LONG....because I don't have the circuit and don't know the wiring.

..BUT....after I WROTE the BULK OF IT...  ONE or BOTH of the items is TOAST.

The White Rodgers relay is $69.  The IRD is $82. That is $151.  This is ANCIENT technology.  The Blue Seas ML-ACR is what most are using.  It is $205.  DON'T mess with this...

Install a Blue Seas ML-ACR.  You need to READ about that.  The ONLY thing you will need to do is to run another WIRE from here to the Cabin.  You SWAP out the BOOST switch and install the one provided.  You HAVE to be able to read the prints and then install it.  That is MY BEST advice...

I think I KNOW...how it is wired and I have included a marked diagram.  BUT...at the end of the day...  If you install the Blue Seas...you have a FULL BIRD.  When you drive...the HOUSE is charged.  When you are PARKED and on AC (or Genny), the CHASSIS is charged.  I THINK there are some HOW to in the FILES.

Use the Search.  PUT IN BLUE SEAS or ML-ACR. Then click on Everywhere.  Select TOPICS.  SEARCH.  All you ever wanted to know is now there..

Do the search again.  This time select FILES. If there is a HOW TO or how I did it...you have that.

OK....THAT's the BOTTOM LINE...but POSTED here. You DO need to pay attention and follow this.  You also need to look at the print that I marked up.  THAT is what, based on following your photos and your narrative...you have.  

Read on about your issue...

A and C are the cables to the HOUSE and CHASSIS.  Don't know WHICH...but that is the LARGE STUDS

B & D are the COIL on the White Rogers.  That has to be 12 VDC to work.  

B would appear to be GROUND... Therefore, you WOULD have Voltage from either of the Battery (Stud).  NORMAL...assuming THAT if you DISCONNECTED the B wire...it has continuity to GROUND.  One SIDE or terminal of the Relay MUST be GROUNDED.

NOW, since you ALSO have a GROUND on D, then that is the mystery.  

Label each cable and lead.  NOW...remove the Solenoid.  

You obviously WILL have voltage to GROUND on A and C.  

Then Test the OTHER WIRES.  If B is GROUND....then we are making progress...if the coil is blown up (nice term), then the coil windings COULD BE SHORTED to the metal bracket...

BUT...here is what we NEED...

What are the small wires...

On C...where does it GO? What do the PRINTS Show.

B or D has to be a ground.  Need to KNOW which side of the COIL (B or D) has the GROUND side.  If B is the GROUND...then where does the wires on D go. 

NOW, the wires on D could also be a GROUND. 

WITHOUT knowing how they test and where they GO...NO WAY to keep troubleshooting.

NOW...  without the FULL Intellitec Part Number...which looks someone used the label for target practice...that is difficult.

https://intellitec.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/53-00629-000.pdf

THIS appears to be the SAME part.  Maybe the LATEST VERSION.  It is an IRD.  Read the PDF.

The wires on it are simple... RED goes to ONE terminal...matters NOT WHICH one.  That will be the POWER for the Solenoid.

Black goes to the OTHER.  Notice that there has to be a GROUND WIRE to that terminal.  

And BLUE is from a switched ignition.

NOW...if it was working....then the solenoid would close when the batteries.  SO, you are going to have to TEST.  BLUE GOES to a SWITCHED ON Ignition.  That LOOKS like the YELLOW wire.  You are going to have to take a paper clip or a needle or a straight pin.  Put it INSIDE the blue connector.  THEN check that to Ground.  IF the Yellow WIRE has 12 VDC to GROUND...when the ignition is ON...then that is the correct signal.

THE QUESTION IS... DOES IT WORK.  I DON'T KNOW. 

What you do NOT see if the REST  or the CIRCUIT.  The Solenoid is also the BOOST Solenoid.  ONE of the wires from the BOOST SWITCH has to to ONE of the small terminals.  NOW it GETS TRICKY...

SO....here would be MY BEST GUESS. 

The TWO WIRES on the D terminal would be positive 12 VDC.  You CAN TEST THAT.  One of them will have 12 VDC when you PUSH the BOOST SWITCH on.  That is the WAY that the Solenoid CLOSES and you get BOOST or connect the batteries.  NOW....if that is the CASE..  Then the OTHER wire is from the ISOLATOR...YOU are THERE...you have to do the measurements

OK...I printed out the circuit.  See below...

The TWO Reds... PROBABLY on D...  ONE has to be THE BOOST.  The OTHER RED is from the IRD.  

B goes to GROUND.  NOW the BLACK Wire on the IRD has to go to another ground.  GROUND is GROUND is GROUND. 
That is probably how it is wired.  

You chase wires.  You do the testing.

WHAT MADE IT BLOW?  NO IDEA

BUT...I would NOT FIX IT... PUT IN THE ML-ACR

 

 

Intellitec IRD and White Rodgers Wiring diagram...SUPPOSEDLY.pdf

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If you look at the HD cables on the White-Rodgers device it's clear they're designed for HEAVY amounts of current, not charging currents.  This is the relay that energizes when the BOOST switch is pushed (don't use the starter but allow the coach batt to charge the chassis batt if dead).  While a BIRD or Blue-Seas device will allow those cables to charge coach batts while driving I believe the relay in the front run bay is what charges while driving.  That's what I have in my sister ship 2003 Endeavor.

When I first started driving our coach the coach batts didn't charge while driving.  Then magically I noticed they started charging.  Maybe the relay needed to be exercised a few dozen time.  If the coach batts are down to 60% or so it takes a few hours of driving to get them to 100%, but they do it reliably now.

As I said above, in the front run bay on the circuit board there's a stout relay with coach voltage on one side and chassis voltage on the other.  This smaller relay, IN MY OPINION, is the one that connects coach and chassis together to charge the coach side from the alternator.   

Disclaimer - I'm not an engineer, but I did play one on tv once. 

- bob

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1 hour ago, VinceB said:

Tom,

Thank you for the information. I can open the PDF in the above quote of your post but it is blank.

That would the result of being BRAIN DEAD...  I was working on a LOT of topics for folks and in my HASTE...  I ignored the SIGN that I put on my multi purpose printer...  FACE UP...  DUMMY.

Let's try it again....

I also edited the original post...so now it should work...

Hope this helps you understand the circuit.  I WAS able with your narrative, to figure out the circuit...but thought that marking up the Intellitec print would make it a little easier to comprehend..

Good Luck...

 

Intellitec IRD and White Rodgers Wiring diagram...SUPPOSEDLY.pdf

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Thanks. I think I understand it now.

The 12v from the boost switch must've blown a fuse SOMEWHERE and another from the ignition switch - or they just burned up the wire if not fused - just have to find them or where.  Guessing both blew when the coil on the isolator blew - no way you can short 12v to ground and not have SOMETHING amiss.  Not sure what would blow the isolator in the first place as it is rated for more than 12v - maybe the "Made in Mexico" QC and it was faulty from the get go.  I'll need to get it removed and bench test it. Maybe the IRD too. Go from there.

I have lots of trouble shooting to do before our next trip in Sept.  At least the coach is running OK and the batteries are all happy.

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8 minutes ago, VinceB said:

Thanks. I think I understand it now.

The 12v from the boost switch must've blown a fuse SOMEWHERE and another from the ignition switch - or they just burned up the wire if not fused - just have to find them or where.  Guessing both blew when the coil on the isolator blew - no way you can short 12v to ground and not have SOMETHING amiss.  Not sure what would blow the isolator in the first place as it is rated for more than 12v - maybe the "Made in Mexico" QC and it was faulty from the get go.  I'll need to get it removed and bench test it. Maybe the IRD too. Go from there.

I have lots of trouble shooting to do before our next trip in Sept.  At least the coach is running OK and the batteries are all happy.

First...  GLAD you understand the circuit.  I can (and you can verify) identify the wiring...based on the number of wires and such. That is why I marked up the print.

Second.  I don't REALLY know how you will "BENCH TEST" the IRD.  If needs to be in the vehicle and you need to have the engine on.  Read the description of when it kicks in.  Don't feel bad, I have read the BIRD and IRD and whatever language for years and it still, in narrative form....is confusing.  BUT, this one is NOT as complicated as the BIRD.  I don't know really why it is that complicate.

The IGNITION or the RUNNING signal is what triggers it.  What is does...if I understand. 

Start the Engine.  You will have to let it run a while as the preheaters in the air intake suck up voltage...and then the Leece-Neville and the regulator settles down.  The NORMAL Monaco System (Charging Voltage), at least on mine is around 13.8 - maybe 14.0...  Usually 13.8/9...

SO that SHOULD say HELLO IRD...and then the RED should be energized and putting out somewhere in the "NEIGHBORHOOD" or a 12 VDC signal.  Then you measure that to GROUND.  If RED is ON then the Solenoid would be engaged.

THUS...  you MUST test the IRD with the engine running...after the heaters are OFF and the charging voltage has stabilized.  IF IT WORKS...then you can put in a NEW solenoid.  The Solenoid is $6X or so.  The new IRD is $8X or so...so it is closer to $205.  OK...that gives you only ONE WAY CHARGING.  The Engine will CHARGE the House batteries whilst driving.

BUT...when you are parked and on AC, then the Chassis just sits there and NOTHING is done to them.  A FULL FLEDGED BIRD SYSTEM would charge the Chassis while on AC.

So, if the IRD is bad...then for less than $60 MORE and some recabling...  I do NOT think you have to make up any NEW "RINGED" CABLES.  The wiring is nothing more than hookup wire. You USE the Boost Switch's wiring and follow the directions.  That is a simple hookup.  The only real chore is running the ADDITIONAL line from the ML-ACR up front.  It has to go WHERE the NEW Boost Signal it.  It's purpose.  IT gives you STATUS LIGHTS...as in ALL OK and such...or if there is an error...it tells you.

I have NOT been an advocate of the ML-ACR except in OLDER systems...and your is that.  You would NOT believe the difference (or confidence) in knowing that when you are parked...the Chassis will be 100% the next morning.  SO... If the IRD works...then it is YOUR call to replace the White Rodgers.

BUT, I DO wonder what SHORTED out the White Rodgers.  With the ML-ACR, you eliminate all the "stuff".  TWO CABLES....and rewiring.

Here is the ML-ACR PDF.  It is straight forward and we do NOT have any "UNHAPPY" users...it is usually recommended when there is a charging issue..

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990180180.pdf

If you look on the last page or so...there it is...and it is WAY easier to follow than my crude one.

Just my opinion...

Good Luck.

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I don't mean to argue - I appreciate your help.

I have a transformer that will produce 12.6v DC.  Why not apply 12v to IRD ground and blue wire and wait for it to pass 12v to red wire?  To bench test the Rogers/W I suggest to test the continuity between small lugs.  If OK (NO continuity) then apply 12v to small lugs and test continuity on big lugs - right?

I have a Xantrex Echo to keep the chassis batteries up and it works nicely. 

That wiring on the PDF looks a bit intimidating since I've never done one and I'm not as physically able as I once was to run wires etc. So I'm of a mind to KISS here or am I off on the wrong path?

You are correct - why did Roger/W blow in the first place.  Is it actually blown? Lots of questions at answer before buying parts.

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27 minutes ago, VinceB said:

I don't mean to argue - I appreciate your help.

I have a transformer that will produce 12.6v DC.  Why not apply 12v to IRD ground and blue wire and wait for it to pass 12v to red wire?  To bench test the Rogers/W I suggest to test the continuity between small lugs.  If OK (NO continuity) then apply 12v to small lugs and test continuity on big lugs - right?

I have a Xantrex Echo to keep the chassis batteries up and it works nicely. 

That wiring on the PDF looks a bit intimidating since I've never done one and I'm not as physically able as I once was to run wires etc. So I'm of a mind to KISS here or am I off on the wrong path?

You are correct - why did Roger/W blow in the first place.  Is it actually blown? Lots of questions at answer before buying parts.

First.  Unless you have a variable output power supply, it might (not) test properly.  You have to maintain 13.3 VDC for 12 seconds….to “get it going”.  Then the expected or latched in voltage from Alternator should be around 13.8/.9.

reread the pdf…bottom of page 1….and top of next page.  It tells exactly the way it works and when it cuts in and out. No need or advantage to disassemble and pull out.

All you have to do is leave it in place…verify, like posted before, unless you want shave insulation off the ignition (yellow/blue) wire.  After a few minutes…measure your ignition voltage. If it is in the range…the red and black will measure somewhere around 12 vdc.  The solenoid ain’t picky.

you did not state that you had a charger on the chassis bank…so…that would have been helpful….

read and test on the MH to see if the IRD works.  Your solenoid is toast,  something fried it…maybe it got water inside….who knows.  If the IRD works…pop for a solenoid.  It both are broken…then you can buy new or do like most and get the 2024 technology and then you will have good controlled charging os both banks.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

First.  Unless you have a variable output power supply, it might (not) test properly.  You have to maintain 13.3 VDC for 12 seconds….to “get it going”.  Then the expected or latched in voltage from Alternator should be around 13.8/.9.

reread the pdf…bottom of page 1….and top of next page.  It tells exactly the way it works and when it cuts in and out. No need or advantage to disassemble and pull out.

All you have to do is leave it in place…verify, like posted before, unless you want shave insulation off the ignition (yellow/blue) wire.  After a few minutes…measure your ignition voltage. If it is in the range…the red and black will measure somewhere around 12 vdc.  The solenoid ain’t picky.

you did not state that you had a charger on the chassis bank…so…that would have been helpful….

read and test on the MH to see if the IRD works.  Your solenoid is toast,  something fried it…maybe it got water inside….who knows.  If the IRD works…pop for a solenoid.  It both are broken…then you can buy new or do like most and get the 2024 technology and then you will have good controlled charging os both banks.

After going over the materials again, I see your point and will do exactly as you suggest. No sense making more work of this than necessary.

Your help is very much appreciated.

Edited by VinceB
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2 minutes ago, VinceB said:

After going over the materials again, I see your point and will do exactly as you suggest. No sense making more work of this than necessary.

If it any consolation….you made my day and also saved yourself a lot of grief and work, and perhaps….”confusion”.  Rock on, bro!

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In 2021 I started to question whether my charging system was working correctly.   I tested everything but for some reason the Lambert 415 was clicking none stop.  At the time the Bluesea option was just being discussed, it looked promising and at the time it was ~$170.  So I bought it and installed and it has worked flawlessly ever since.  I removed the Isolation solenoid, BIRD, and Lambert and installed the Bluesea where the Isolation Solenoid was mounted.  Also installed the switch on the dash! I'd do it again in a heart beat.

When I converted a 250 Transit van for my wife I installed a second battery and installed a Bluesea to isolate the two batteries so she wouldn't run down the chassis battery while parked. 

 

Blue Sea ML-ARC.jpg

Fuel guage and Bluesea switch.jpg

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This is very interesting, as my house batteries have stopped charging while driving. They have never charged while on shore power, which, unless we were parked for weeks, was not an issue. I have a trickle charger I plug into the block heater outlet if we are going to be parked for an extended period of time. 

I have a couple of questions:

1. is the remote dash switch necessary?  If my chassis battery is charging on shore power, the only time I would need a boost would be after storage, which with the battery switch turned off, has never been a problem.  I have a jump pack just for such occasions. 

2. IF the remote switch is necessary, is there a chase or conduit somewhere for the wiring?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jeff H said:

This is very interesting, as my house batteries have stopped charging while driving. They have never charged while on shore power, which, unless we were parked for weeks, was not an issue. I have a trickle charger I plug into the block heater outlet if we are going to be parked for an extended period of time. 

I have a couple of questions:

1. is the remote dash switch necessary?  If my chassis battery is charging on shore power, the only time I would need a boost would be after storage, which with the battery switch turned off, has never been a problem.  I have a jump pack just for such occasions. 

2. IF the remote switch is necessary, is there a chase or conduit somewhere for the wiring?

 

 

 

Two comments.  You have, I think, a totally different system.  Tied up today, but suggest you post a scan or photos from your manual.  You PROBABLY have the real Big Boy.  Depending on what you have, if my guess…and I’ll try to research later, you need to troubleshoot.

Second….there was a complete write up or topic on the ML-ACR.  Please search that in both Topics and Files.  Your specific question about the new remote or boost switch was addressed.  I wrote it after a lot of research and circuit review and talking to Blue Seas.

First….NOPE…you do NOT actually need the new remote or Boost.  Jumping out and manually controlling it will work. This is NOT RECOMMENDED by Blue Seas.

Second, the additional YELLOW wire is a safeguard.  Its purpose is to give you INSTANT ERROR or MALFUNCTION.  It monitors the unit.  So if a short or error occurs…you KNOW to stop and find would why the ML-ACR was not working. The tech was MORE than adamant about doing the full proper installation.

Personally…the newer systems like yours were misunderstood.  If you have the Intellitec BIRD and Big Boy setup, I’d diagnose and test. Then….determine the cost of fixing…they are reliable. So find out what’s wrong rather than shotgunning $$ at it.  But, if you say….NOPE, I’m upgrading….then the consensus….do it properly…..otherwise fix and stick with what you’ve got.

Let us know….I’ll try to help later with your prints…

 

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23 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Two comments.  You have, I think, a totally different system.  Tied up today, but suggest you post a scan or photos from your manual.  You PROBABLY have the real Big Boy.  Depending on what you have, if my guess…and I’ll try to research later, you need to troubleshoot.

Second….there was a complete write up or topic on the ML-ACR.  Please search that in both Topics and Files.  Your specific question about the new remote or boost switch was addressed.  I wrote it after a lot of research and circuit review and talking to Blue Seas.

First….NOPE…you do NOT actually need the new remote or Boost.  Jumping out and manually controlling it will work. This is NOT RECOMMENDED by Blue Seas.

Second, the additional YELLOW wire is a safeguard.  Its purpose is to give you INSTANT ERROR or MALFUNCTION.  It monitors the unit.  So if a short or error occurs…you KNOW to stop and find would why the ML-ACR was not working. The tech was MORE than adamant about doing the full proper installation.

Personally…the newer systems like yours were misunderstood.  If you have the Intellitec BIRD and Big Boy setup, I’d diagnose and test. Then….determine the cost of fixing…they are reliable. So find out what’s wrong rather than shotgunning $$ at it.  But, if you say….NOPE, I’m upgrading….then the consensus….do it properly…..otherwise fix and stick with what you’ve got.

Let us know….I’ll try to help later with your prints…

 

My manual says 2005 but the motorhome is a 2006 so I am not sure it is accurate for everything.  I could not find anything about a Big Boy Relay in the manual nor anything about charging the house battery while from the alternator.  I thought that a Diplomat did not have the Big Boy relay.

I have attached pictures of the diagram in the manual and some pictures of the battery bay and what I assume is the issue.

 

20240701_080306.jpg

20240701_080438.jpg

20240701_080404.jpg

.jpg

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YES and NO.  You have a Battery BOOST Solenoid.  ALL Monaco's DO.  Yours is the Trombetta.  White-Rodgers was also used...maybe some other brands.

NOW....when Monaco started using the Intellitec System, then the NAME BIG BOY was applied (or was the Solenoid) so a vast majority call the BOOST a Big Boy.  Like saying that all tissues are Kleenex.

Here is the print.  

That Solenoid has TWO functions.  The White Rodgers Solenoid does the SAME THING.  It connects the banks together.  ONE when you PRESS and HOLD the Batt Boost Switch up front.  The OTHER...for CHARGING....

OK...NOW is where it GETS TRICKY.  There is SOME type of "Charging Control" circuit.  But the prints that we have are not complete and Monaco did NOT do a good job on what they gave out.

Your BLOCK diagram has the SOLENOID between the TWO BATTERIES.  Trombetta.  (or maybe White Rodgers....it was dealer's Choice).

OK...now read what is on page 213....  The first three or four sentences (Monaco will NOT let me copy from their PDF) say it all.  You have a BIRD (BiDirectional Charing System).  When you DRIVE....the House is Charged.  When you are parked and on AC or Genny, the Chassis is charged. 

NOW...what does this?  Probably an Intellitec part.  It MAY be in the black panel that you have to open.  It probably looks like this...

https://www.opentip.com/Intellitec-00-00839-000-B-I-R-D-D-2-Battery-Isolator-Relay-Delay-p-12949994.html?ats=gs&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwp4m0BhBAEiwAsdc4aHiSt4LGUtqSNa0C-FRa-FeqZRxCVC_K1jDS77Qja0S8lQ-l4Roc5RoCwM8QAvD_BwE

Google      Intellitec 00-00839-000 B.I.R.D.-D-2, Battery Isolator Relay Delay 

SO, find it.  NOW...here is where it really gets confusing...and folks have issues.  The BIRD module ONLY requires FOUR WIRES.  In some years...Monaco had FIVE.  The GENNY is NOT NEEDED.  SO, if the GENNY is OPEN....OK...Many Harnesses did have that wire.  BUT, Monaco also GOOFED.  We have documented this, many times.  When they had the FOUR Wire harness, some ASSEMBLERS got confused... They put ONE of the wires on the GENNY...That is NOT NEEDED and IT only works HALF WAY.

Here is how it works....

Ground....IS GROUND.

House... that is the HOUSE BATTERY INPUT.  If you turn OFF the HOUSE and CHASSIS, and check each wire...NADA. Turn on HOUSE.  ONE will have POWER.  That is the HOUSE...it GOES to the Coach Battery Terminal (HOUSE on some)

NEXT UP...IGNITION.  On SOME, it MAY have been labeled as CHASSIS.  TURN OFF the HOUSE disconnect.  Turn ON the Chassis... THEN turn ON (don't start) the engine. The WIRE with 12 VDC is an Ignition Signal.  That goes to IGNITION.

Solenoid.  THAT WIRE goes to whatever BOOST or CONNECT Solenoid that you have.  White Rodgers, Trombetta or REAL INTELLITEC BIG BOY..

NOW...How does it work and HOW DO I KNOW it is working.  SIMPLE>

ALL Disconnects ON.  Start the ENGINE...NO SHORE POWER...  There should be at LEAST 3 VDC (measured to Ground) on the SOLENOID Terminal. The spec is 3 - 5.  MOST run low... usually about 3.4 or 3.5.  BUT as long as you have VOLTAGE on the Solenoid Terminal...the BIRD is working...

Next TEST...  Shut off the ENGINE.  If you have a GENNY SIGNAL....pull OFF that wire.  Now start the Genny.  Then test the Solenoid again.  Same DEAL...you should have voltage.

NOW...  OK...the BIRD WORKS.  What about the Trombetta.  Again.. SIMPLE.  TURN OFF disconnect switches.  Check to see if you have, to GROUND, voltage on either of the LARGE STUDS.  AND Monaco wired them differently...so this is necessary....  IF none...turn on HOUSE.  Do the same.  THEN one stud will have POWER.  Mark that HOUSE.  TURN OFF house.  Turn On CHASSIS.  BINGO, you SHOULD have POWER on the other.  Mark it CHASSIS.

NOW... WITH BOTH BANKS ON.  REMEASURE the Voltages.  They MAY be different....they may be close.  That is YOUR house and chassis battery voltage. 

Use your VOM....put the probes on the small wires or the CONTROL circuit.  ZERO VOLTS.  

NOW...  Have someone PUSH the BOOST SWITCH up Front... Check the control wires (Small) terminals.  SHOULD be around 12 VDC or higher.  BINGO, you have VOLTAGE to the COIL.
NOW... remeasure the STUD Voltages to GROUND.  They SHOULD BE IDENTICAL....within say 0.1 VDC.  ALL IS WELL..  BUT put your PROBES on EACH STUD...should be ZERO or maybe a max of 0.1 VDC.  ALL IS WELL.  The system is working.

Hope that explains and answers your questions...

2005 - 2007 maybe higher AUX starting Solenoid Print.pdf

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4 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

YES and NO.  You have a Battery BOOST Solenoid.  ALL Monaco's DO.  Yours is the Trombetta.  White-Rodgers was also used...maybe some other brands.

NOW....when Monaco started using the Intellitec System, then the NAME BIG BOY was applied (or was the Solenoid) so a vast majority call the BOOST a Big Boy.  Like saying that all tissues are Kleenex.

Here is the print.  

That Solenoid has TWO functions.  The White Rodgers Solenoid does the SAME THING.  It connects the banks together.  ONE when you PRESS and HOLD the Batt Boost Switch up front.  The OTHER...for CHARGING....

OK...NOW is where it GETS TRICKY.  There is SOME type of "Charging Control" circuit.  But the prints that we have are not complete and Monaco did NOT do a good job on what they gave out.

Your BLOCK diagram has the SOLENOID between the TWO BATTERIES.  Trombetta.  (or maybe White Rodgers....it was dealer's Choice).

OK...now read what is on page 213....  The first three or four sentences (Monaco will NOT let me copy from their PDF) say it all.  You have a BIRD (BiDirectional Charing System).  When you DRIVE....the House is Charged.  When you are parked and on AC or Genny, the Chassis is charged. 

NOW...what does this?  Probably an Intellitec part.  It MAY be in the black panel that you have to open.  It probably looks like this...

https://www.opentip.com/Intellitec-00-00839-000-B-I-R-D-D-2-Battery-Isolator-Relay-Delay-p-12949994.html?ats=gs&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwp4m0BhBAEiwAsdc4aHiSt4LGUtqSNa0C-FRa-FeqZRxCVC_K1jDS77Qja0S8lQ-l4Roc5RoCwM8QAvD_BwE

Google      Intellitec 00-00839-000 B.I.R.D.-D-2, Battery Isolator Relay Delay 

SO, find it.  NOW...here is where it really gets confusing...and folks have issues.  The BIRD module ONLY requires FOUR WIRES.  In some years...Monaco had FIVE.  The GENNY is NOT NEEDED.  SO, if the GENNY is OPEN....OK...Many Harnesses did have that wire.  BUT, Monaco also GOOFED.  We have documented this, many times.  When they had the FOUR Wire harness, some ASSEMBLERS got confused... They put ONE of the wires on the GENNY...That is NOT NEEDED and IT only works HALF WAY.

Here is how it works....

Ground....IS GROUND.

House... that is the HOUSE BATTERY INPUT.  If you turn OFF the HOUSE and CHASSIS, and check each wire...NADA. Turn on HOUSE.  ONE will have POWER.  That is the HOUSE...it GOES to the Coach Battery Terminal (HOUSE on some)

NEXT UP...IGNITION.  On SOME, it MAY have been labeled as CHASSIS.  TURN OFF the HOUSE disconnect.  Turn ON the Chassis... THEN turn ON (don't start) the engine. The WIRE with 12 VDC is an Ignition Signal.  That goes to IGNITION.

Solenoid.  THAT WIRE goes to whatever BOOST or CONNECT Solenoid that you have.  White Rodgers, Trombetta or REAL INTELLITEC BIG BOY..

NOW...How does it work and HOW DO I KNOW it is working.  SIMPLE>

ALL Disconnects ON.  Start the ENGINE...NO SHORE POWER...  There should be at LEAST 3 VDC (measured to Ground) on the SOLENOID Terminal. The spec is 3 - 5.  MOST run low... usually about 3.4 or 3.5.  BUT as long as you have VOLTAGE on the Solenoid Terminal...the BIRD is working...

Next TEST...  Shut off the ENGINE.  If you have a GENNY SIGNAL....pull OFF that wire.  Now start the Genny.  Then test the Solenoid again.  Same DEAL...you should have voltage.

NOW...  OK...the BIRD WORKS.  What about the Trombetta.  Again.. SIMPLE.  TURN OFF disconnect switches.  Check to see if you have, to GROUND, voltage on either of the LARGE STUDS.  AND Monaco wired them differently...so this is necessary....  IF none...turn on HOUSE.  Do the same.  THEN one stud will have POWER.  Mark that HOUSE.  TURN OFF house.  Turn On CHASSIS.  BINGO, you SHOULD have POWER on the other.  Mark it CHASSIS.

NOW... WITH BOTH BANKS ON.  REMEASURE the Voltages.  They MAY be different....they may be close.  That is YOUR house and chassis battery voltage. 

Use your VOM....put the probes on the small wires or the CONTROL circuit.  ZERO VOLTS.  

NOW...  Have someone PUSH the BOOST SWITCH up Front... Check the control wires (Small) terminals.  SHOULD be around 12 VDC or higher.  BINGO, you have VOLTAGE to the COIL.
NOW... remeasure the STUD Voltages to GROUND.  They SHOULD BE IDENTICAL....within say 0.1 VDC.  ALL IS WELL..  BUT put your PROBES on EACH STUD...should be ZERO or maybe a max of 0.1 VDC.  ALL IS WELL.  The system is working.

Hope that explains and answers your questions...

2005 - 2007 maybe higher AUX starting Solenoid Print.pdf 34.93 kB · 0 downloads

My head just exploded.

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On 7/1/2024 at 11:06 AM, Tom Cherry said:

YES and NO.  You have a Battery BOOST Solenoid.  ALL Monaco's DO.  Yours is the Trombetta.  White-Rodgers was also used...maybe some other brands.

NOW....when Monaco started using the Intellitec System, then the NAME BIG BOY was applied (or was the Solenoid) so a vast majority call the BOOST a Big Boy.  Like saying that all tissues are Kleenex.

Here is the print.  

That Solenoid has TWO functions.  The White Rodgers Solenoid does the SAME THING.  It connects the banks together.  ONE when you PRESS and HOLD the Batt Boost Switch up front.  The OTHER...for CHARGING....

OK...NOW is where it GETS TRICKY.  There is SOME type of "Charging Control" circuit.  But the prints that we have are not complete and Monaco did NOT do a good job on what they gave out.

Your BLOCK diagram has the SOLENOID between the TWO BATTERIES.  Trombetta.  (or maybe White Rodgers....it was dealer's Choice).

OK...now read what is on page 213....  The first three or four sentences (Monaco will NOT let me copy from their PDF) say it all.  You have a BIRD (BiDirectional Charing System).  When you DRIVE....the House is Charged.  When you are parked and on AC or Genny, the Chassis is charged. 

NOW...what does this?  Probably an Intellitec part.  It MAY be in the black panel that you have to open.  It probably looks like this...

https://www.opentip.com/Intellitec-00-00839-000-B-I-R-D-D-2-Battery-Isolator-Relay-Delay-p-12949994.html?ats=gs&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwp4m0BhBAEiwAsdc4aHiSt4LGUtqSNa0C-FRa-FeqZRxCVC_K1jDS77Qja0S8lQ-l4Roc5RoCwM8QAvD_BwE

Google      Intellitec 00-00839-000 B.I.R.D.-D-2, Battery Isolator Relay Delay 

SO, find it.  NOW...here is where it really gets confusing...and folks have issues.  The BIRD module ONLY requires FOUR WIRES.  In some years...Monaco had FIVE.  The GENNY is NOT NEEDED.  SO, if the GENNY is OPEN....OK...Many Harnesses did have that wire.  BUT, Monaco also GOOFED.  We have documented this, many times.  When they had the FOUR Wire harness, some ASSEMBLERS got confused... They put ONE of the wires on the GENNY...That is NOT NEEDED and IT only works HALF WAY.

Here is how it works....

Ground....IS GROUND.

House... that is the HOUSE BATTERY INPUT.  If you turn OFF the HOUSE and CHASSIS, and check each wire...NADA. Turn on HOUSE.  ONE will have POWER.  That is the HOUSE...it GOES to the Coach Battery Terminal (HOUSE on some)

NEXT UP...IGNITION.  On SOME, it MAY have been labeled as CHASSIS.  TURN OFF the HOUSE disconnect.  Turn ON the Chassis... THEN turn ON (don't start) the engine. The WIRE with 12 VDC is an Ignition Signal.  That goes to IGNITION.

Solenoid.  THAT WIRE goes to whatever BOOST or CONNECT Solenoid that you have.  White Rodgers, Trombetta or REAL INTELLITEC BIG BOY..

NOW...How does it work and HOW DO I KNOW it is working.  SIMPLE>

ALL Disconnects ON.  Start the ENGINE...NO SHORE POWER...  There should be at LEAST 3 VDC (measured to Ground) on the SOLENOID Terminal. The spec is 3 - 5.  MOST run low... usually about 3.4 or 3.5.  BUT as long as you have VOLTAGE on the Solenoid Terminal...the BIRD is working...

Next TEST...  Shut off the ENGINE.  If you have a GENNY SIGNAL....pull OFF that wire.  Now start the Genny.  Then test the Solenoid again.  Same DEAL...you should have voltage.

NOW...  OK...the BIRD WORKS.  What about the Trombetta.  Again.. SIMPLE.  TURN OFF disconnect switches.  Check to see if you have, to GROUND, voltage on either of the LARGE STUDS.  AND Monaco wired them differently...so this is necessary....  IF none...turn on HOUSE.  Do the same.  THEN one stud will have POWER.  Mark that HOUSE.  TURN OFF house.  Turn On CHASSIS.  BINGO, you SHOULD have POWER on the other.  Mark it CHASSIS.

NOW... WITH BOTH BANKS ON.  REMEASURE the Voltages.  They MAY be different....they may be close.  That is YOUR house and chassis battery voltage. 

Use your VOM....put the probes on the small wires or the CONTROL circuit.  ZERO VOLTS.  

NOW...  Have someone PUSH the BOOST SWITCH up Front... Check the control wires (Small) terminals.  SHOULD be around 12 VDC or higher.  BINGO, you have VOLTAGE to the COIL.
NOW... remeasure the STUD Voltages to GROUND.  They SHOULD BE IDENTICAL....within say 0.1 VDC.  ALL IS WELL..  BUT put your PROBES on EACH STUD...should be ZERO or maybe a max of 0.1 VDC.  ALL IS WELL.  The system is working.

Hope that explains and answers your questions...

2005 - 2007 maybe higher AUX starting Solenoid Print.pdf 34.93 kB · 4 downloads

Wow 

Thank you For taking the time Tom that is a pile of information.  I think I have my head wrapped around it.

My problem is that I cannot find the BIRD relay. Your diagram shows a violet and white wire going from the coil to the front run bay. That matches reality (at least a violet and white wire leave the battery bay in a big loom of wires).  if I put 12V across the coil the relay changes state.  If I press the "Boost" button nothing happens.  Next step is to check the switch and see if I can find the Bird relay under the console with the parking brake.

If the violet wire goes to the boost switch and there is no BIRD relay under the parking brake.  I will figure out why the switch isn't working.  Then my question is can I wire in a BIRD as in the attached?

2005 - 2007 maybe higher AUX starting Solenoid Print.pdf

Edited by Jeff H
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Ok.  I went back and before I tore the console apart I thought I would check a couple things in the battery bay. 

  1. I unplugged from shore power.
  2. Had my wife turn the ignition on and press the boost button.....relay clicked
  3. I had her start the RV while I measured the voltage at the coil. It would close when the voltage reached 11VDC and then open again if it fell below 10VDC. After about 2 minutes, it stayed closed.
  4. Turned the RV off
  5. Turned of both battery disconnects.  put 12 VDC across the coil... Relay closed 
  6. Checked continuity across large studs... No continuity

So, in conclusion, I still don't know where the BIRD relay is, if there is one, and I would say the contacts are shot on the Trombetta relay.

 

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1 hour ago, Jeff H said:

So, in conclusion, I still don't know where the BIRD relay is, if there is one, and I would say the contacts are shot on the Trombetta relay.

Jeff - I am attaching a paper that describes how my 2006 Windsor was updated to a BIRD from an IRD.  Your coach may still be an IRD.  The attachment describes the difference and also shows a picture of what the IRD would look like.  It is located in the FRB and if you look closely at the board your should see printed Isolator Relay Delay above it.  At least that is how mine is.

 

MTO IRD Description Update to BIRD.pdf

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On 7/1/2024 at 3:22 PM, VinceB said:

My head just exploded.

Take two aspirin and call me in the morning. MH Electric 101 has been known to cause such…

Seriously.  My penchant is teaching…sort of a takeoff on the biblical phrase…”Teach a man to fish….”

Learning the basics of proper troubleshooting is fundamental.  Knowing how to and what to expect is the goal. Too many times members want the “quick” solution.  We find that often mods have been made or what the member “thought” or posted was in error…then there are a plethora of posts that frustrates and never solves the problems.

Members who take the time to understand and gain more useful knowledge as well as the science (or art if you prefer” troubleshooting by starting with the basics and then checking a component properly, usually end up fixing or repairing the problem.

DC electrical troubleshooting takes time, patience…as well as some fundamental knowledge…..but we have many experienced member that pitch in.

NOT CHARGING or  “it USED to work” or “what happened” are probably the most common problems we see.  Understanding the basics of the systems on a MH and wanting not to be stranded or at the mercy of an expensive repair is what folks want.  Unfortunately the first comment is…. “It don’t work…must be a fuse…where is it….can’t find it”.  Many times it is that simple or the Magic Bullet…but more than often…locating the real issue takes time…and without being there with a VOM and test leads and such….we have to keep it basic…

Hope your headache goes away….

 

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2 hours ago, Jeff H said:

Ok.  I went back and before I tore the console apart I thought I would check a couple things in the battery bay. 

  1. I unplugged from shore power.
  2. Had my wife turn the ignition on and press the boost button.....relay clicked
  3. I had her start the RV while I measured the voltage at the coil. It would close when the voltage reached 11VDC and then open again if it fell below 10VDC. After about 2 minutes, it stayed closed.
  4. Turned the RV off
  5. Turned of both battery disconnects.  put 12 VDC across the coil... Relay closed 
  6. Checked continuity across large studs... No continuity

So, in conclusion, I still don't know where the BIRD relay is, if there is one, and I would say the contacts are shot on the Trombetta relay.

 

OK…the BIRD is not a RELAY.  Technically it is called a BIRD Diesel or Diesel2 module. Google that… there are many topics going that are similar.  I posted the link and the amazon link.  It is located within a few feet of the Trombetta.  Follow the purple and white leads.  Did you open the black panel or box above the Trombetta.  

OK….lets call the Trombetta what it is…a SOLENOID.  

NOW we are NOT hunting for continuity….we are testing the contacts on the Trombetta.  If you put 12 on the small wires…it should click and close. It did.

Now…plug into AC or start the genny. The inverter should be charging.  Therefore the HOUSE side or stud should be in the 13k’s or maybe low 14.  Did the Trombetta “close?  Measure the voltage across the white and purple.  What is it?  It could be as low as 3 VDC or maybe 5 VDC.  NEED TO KNOW THAT.  

If the Solenoid CLOSED…good…if not…then remove the purple and white…put 12 VDC…on small terminals…polarity is not a issue.  OK…it closed.  Genny or AC is ON and Inverter is pumping out volts.  If the contacts on the Trombetta are bad….lets find out.  Repeat….measure the studs to ground.  Should be the same, maybe a smidge difference.  Put the VOM probes on each STUD…using the VOLT scale.  The voltage should be close or at ZERO.  If NOT and more than 0.2 VDC….the Trombetta solenoid contacts are shot…burned and pitted.  Don’t know if it can be taken apart and cleaned.  If the contacts are PERFECT as in ZERO Volts….then the ONLY way to test is UNDER LOAD (Inverter is charging). When you measure voltage across a connection or contacts…the voltage should be zero…if higher than say 0.2 VDC….there is resistance or issues…

Let us know.

We have to know if the Trombetta works….12 VDC across it tells us that.  Now if there is 3 - 5 or so VDC on the Purple and White….the BIRD Diesel2 is working.  That “module” senses or reads voltages and closes and controls the Trombetta.  

UNLESS each is tested properly….no one can diagnose….

Do the qbove.  Reread the posts.  Until BOTH are tested….it is a crap shoot…and throwing money or shotgunning with money is a waste…

 

 

ONE stud is house and one stud is chassis.  Measure each stud to ground…with no AC or Genny or engine running.  Then, turn off a disconnect….one stud will have zero volts.  Mark each as to which is which.  

 

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Ok, Fair enough, I will be careful with the nomenclature.  To your points

  • Yes, I opened the box above the batteries and the BIRD module was not there
  • The white and violet wires go from the coil of the contactor solenoid and exit the bay through the hole on the left and go into a large loom.  I will check the FRB for the IRD relay that Bill R describes above.  What he describes is more like they way the coach acted before.
  • If I don't find a BIRD or IRD in the FRB, I will double-check the coil of the Trombetta when plugged in, but I do not recall 3V-5V at any time . 
  • I will complete the rest of the tests and report back

Thank you for the help.

7 hours ago, Bill R said:

Jeff - I am attaching a paper that describes how my 2006 Windsor was updated to a BIRD from an IRD.  Your coach may still be an IRD.  The attachment describes the difference and also shows a picture of what the IRD would look like.  It is located in the FRB and if you look closely at the board your should see printed Isolator Relay Delay above it.  At least that is how mine is.

 

MTO IRD Description Update to BIRD.pdf 150.79 kB · 3 downloads

Thanks Bill

I will check this out at my first opportunity.

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2 hours ago, Jeff H said:

Ok, Fair enough, I will be careful with the nomenclature.  To your points

  • Yes, I opened the box above the batteries and the BIRD module was not there
  • The white and violet wires go from the coil of the contactor solenoid and exit the bay through the hole on the left and go into a large loom.  I will check the FRB for the IRD relay that Bill R describes above.  What he describes is more like they way the coach acted before.
  • If I don't find a BIRD or IRD in the FRB, I will double-check the coil of the Trombetta when plugged in, but I do not recall 3V-5V at any time . 
  • I will complete the rest of the tests and report back

Thank you for the help.

Thanks Bill

I will check this out at my first opportunity.

Thanks for the response. What is frustrating is that I don’t have the prints.  We have worked, extensively, with a Windsor owner, actually several, and the “Isolator” relay , starting is late 2001 was a FULL BIRD Diesel, later Diesel2, module.  The one that was posted.  NOW…the question, did or when did Monaco make the change on the Diplomat to the conventional Diesel (Intellitec revised that and called it a Diesel2).

The comment in the paper specifically calls out a Big Boy solenoid.  Hopefully that is correct and not the Generic, now commonly used, term for the boost/charging solenoid.  What is crucial to know is the signal type.  What is also frustrating…is that we only know a little, or at least many of us, do about how OTHER Brands work with an Intellitec IRD or BIRD.  Please excuse the “teaching”…but this is important.

The BIRD system or module was DESIGNED to NOT have a full 12 VDC signal.  That was to protect snd extend the life of the BIG BOY (the Intellitec soleonoids). All the BIRD’s, and I THINK the IRD’s sent out a reduced and REGULATED signal.  That is what I have been commenting on.  A VOM only “averages” the signal and displays the voltage.  

Here is the basics..

WHEN there is AC power (shore or Genny) OR when the Engine is running, the Module determines IF connecting the TWO banks together is needed to keep both charged.  There are limits on LOW and HIGH to prevent jumpering or connecting is one bank has issues or if the charging source is too high (like a faulty Alternator /voltage regulator). Otherwise, high charging (with high amperage) would overcharge and COOK or boil off water in the electrolyte and damage the batteries.

OK….no more theory on that.  Then, if the voltages of BOTH Banks…one not being charged…and one charging is within a limit….then the BIRD operates as FOLLOWS.

  • BIRD measures…waits some predetermined time…(in the PDF that was posted)….lets say 30 seconds.  
  • ASSUMING, which is 95% of the time, that one bank needs to be charged or “topped off”, there is a FULL 12 VDC signal.  Lets say it stays ON for 15 seconds. That CLOSES or ensures that the Solenoid is energized and the Coil holds the Contacts Closed…. Thus the banks are connected.
  • NOW, immediately thereafter, the Signal or the voltage to the COIL is reduced to the HOLDING or Regulated (pulsed actually) voltage.  The BIRD modules are supposed to be 4 VDC, but they vary down to 3.2 and up to maybe almost 6.  Real world….my troubleshooting and countless members doing the proper testing.
  • THEREFORE the coil operates at a lower voltage….doesn’t get as HOT and lasts longer.  The 100A Big Boy is rated for CONTINUOUS 12 VDC,  but the 200A is not.  Folks sometimes “rewire” and burn them up…or they read a “incorrect” statement elsewhere and shove a Golf Tee under the Boost Switch.  That will, per the manual for a MH with a 200 A, burn them up. BTW, the HOTTER the coil and Solenoid, the more apt to also burn and pit the contacts….thus Intellitec designed them for easy disassembly and cleaning.

NOW…one says….FINE…WELL and GOOD….my unit has a White Rodgers or a TROMBETTA….exactly why all the “teaching”??.


SIMPLE….this technology was evolving and Monaco was not exactly the smartest and they were “scrambling” to get a BIRD (both ways BiDiredtional) Charging system working as the competition was doing that.  They were perhaps “not very thorough”.  Bottom line.  Both the Trombetta and White Rodgers say “12 VDC Continuous”….as in, we are 12 VDC devices…and there is scant information on either website as to “will I WORK with a regulated lower voltage”.

NOW.  Final comment, we have had several members test their Solenoids and “Control Modules”.  Their measurements on the White Rodgers CONFIRMS….YES, 12 VDC is preferred or speced out…but they work FINE on the regulated lower voltage.

IN YOUR CASE….we need the same tests run.  That will tell us if the Trombetta is Functional.  That also tell us if the BIRD Module or control device is working.

YES….we need to locate it…for your mental sanity and also to have that information.  BUT, if the voltages and functions are working….then you know the system is working…but if the control signal is bad or if the Trombetta is bad….we need to know that….so we know which one to replace…

That’s the bottom line.  Pleass focus on doing the tests as written.  Then you will know if both are working.  The location or type of control module is important…but the issue is “is it working”.  Then if it is fhe BIRD, then its location or appearance can be addressed…

Until we, or at least I, have the test voltages and such…all the theories are  worthless.

Thanks….

 

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