VIP Wheel trouble update

[Dalesincal]

I used a 5v 10amp supply.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08B4M1LXM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[MPfeif]

I used this one, rated at 1.5 A (3.0A with extra cooling), but surely way oversized, and supplied it with 12V. HOWEVER, I intercepted the 5V at the base of the steering wheel, so the 5V is only supplying the VIP smartwheel (and it's backlights). If you intercept it down by the front CCM, I suspect you have a lot more current draw, as that supplies all/most of the other back lights in the panel. The CCM is using PWM on the 5V signal to dim the backlights. On mine, the "on" time voltage was about 5.2V, which messed up the voltage levels coming across the data lines, a steady 5V into the VIP smartwheel allowed the front CCM to correctly identify all the VIP button presses.  As mentioned earlier, the 5VDC issue is ONLY applicable to the coaches with the Kongsberg CCM (mid-2008 Sigs, Marquis, and I think later Dynasty).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0758ZTS61?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Great info in downloads for the Smartwheel. In particular, "SmartWheel Troubleshooting Guide - 2006 1.0.0" listed all the voltage levels to expect on the "data" lines.

[Frank McElroy]

32 minutes ago, MPfeif said:

I used this one, rated at 1.5 A (3.0A with extra cooling), but surely way oversized, and supplied it with 12V. HOWEVER, I intercepted the 5V at the base of the steering wheel, so the 5V is only supplying the VIP smartwheel (and it's backlights). If you intercept it down by the front CCM, I suspect you have a lot more current draw, as that supplies all/most of the other back lights in the panel. The CCM is using PWM on the 5V signal to dim the backlights. On mine, the "on" time voltage was about 5.2V, which messed up the voltage levels coming across the data lines, a steady 5V into the VIP smartwheel allowed the front CCM to correctly identify all the VIP button presses.  As mentioned earlier, the 5VDC issue is ONLY applicable to the coaches with the Kongsberg CCM (mid-2008 Sigs, Marquis, and I think later Dynasty).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0758ZTS61?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Great info in downloads for the Smartwheel. In particular, "SmartWheel Troubleshooting Guide - 2006 1.0.0" listed all the voltage levels to expect on the "data" lines.

The 5 volt line from the CCM only feeds the SmartWheel as a reference voltage.  The other backlights on the dash multiplex switch modules is fed from a separate CCM 12 volts output that is pulse modulated to control dimming.

[MPfeif]

4 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

The 5 volt line from the CCM only feeds the SmartWheel as a reference voltage.  The other backlights on the switch module is fed from a separate CCM 12 volts output that is pulse modulated to control dimming.

Thanks for straightening me out Frank, when I saw adjusting the dimmer changed the PWM of the 5 volt line to the smartwheel, I assumed they were using the same on the other panel lighting. I know what assume stands for, I just keep forgetting to apply it.

[ak49er]

13 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

The 5 volt line from the CCM only feeds the SmartWheel as a reference voltage.  The other backlights on the dash multiplex switch modules is fed from a separate CCM 12 volts output that is pulse modulated to control dimming.

I have flickering backlights on the three-gang switch panel in my center console, I believe the switches control Engine Block Heat, Aquahot Engine Pre-Heat, and the third I can't recall at this time, would you surmise that this is an internal issue with the PCB/PIC on the switches, or at the "Rear" CCM. And is there something I can do to correct it, or is this just a symptom of the Kongsburg Death Rattle?

[Frank McElroy]

26 minutes ago, ak49er said:

I have flickering backlights on the three-gang switch panel in my center console, I believe the switches control Engine Block Heat, Aquahot Engine Pre-Heat, and the third I can't recall at this time, would you surmise that this is an internal issue with the PCB/PIC on the switches, or at the "Rear" CCM. And is there something I can do to correct it, or is this just a symptom of the Kongsburg Death Rattle?

If only this switch modules has blinking backlights, the problem is a component on that module starting to fail.  If all the other slave modules off the master modules are blinking then likely the master module is starting to fail.  The backlights are controlled by a digital multiplex signal from the master switch module on the dedicated J1708 data bus for the master and slave switch modules.  That module isn't able to read the dimmer signal and operate correctly.

[woodylmiller]

Thank you Frank for your help.  Sounds like that 5VDC might be my solution to fix the weirdness coming from the FRB and Kongsberg.  I'm ordering the power supply from Amazon.  Cheap enough to have on hand none the less.  

From the picture showing the added power supply I'm a little lost as to where to terminate the wires.  Can you point me to the schematic which would show what to do.  And to make sure, the J26 connects to the positive side of the power supply?  From the pictures it looks like these wires are going/coming from the CCM, is this correct?

I have gone through all my prints/info and have almost nothing on the smart wheel.  So all help is very appreciated.   It sure seems like my issues are the same as all the others; wipers, cruise control, and so on.

One last thing.  My wires are marked J126 and J127, at least to my eyes that's what appears.  The J126 is marked smartwheel +5vdc, so I'm guessing these are the wires.

Thanks,

Woody MIller

09 Dynasty

[goodtimz]

Frank,

Hello.  I am one of those owners that has the dreaded 2009 Dynasty with the CCM I just started reading about.  I would like your expert opinion.  I am having this same issue of losing any response of my smart wheel.  I took voltage readings everywhere inside the smart wheel, see below.  The readings were at the very minimum or just below the acceptable voltage.  Because I was at 5.16V at the inlet connection of the clock spring and at 4.03V on the outlet side, I made a very uneducated guess that the clock spring was bad.  So, I purchased and installed a new clock spring and it did not fix the problem.  It makes no sense that I am getting >5V at the clock spring inlet connection and I lose >1V after the clock spring.

Here were my voltage readings:

Steering Wheel - Violet (recommended 0-5VDC) 4.5(my reading in wheel) (and at the connector to the clock spring under the dash 1.77); Blue (recommended 0-5VDC) 5.07(my reading in wheel) (and at the connector under the dash 4.3); Red (required 5VDC) 4.03(my reading in wheel) (and at the connector under the dash 5.16)

SW2 Wiper Variable (Blue 3.708) 3.22(my reading) (Violet 1.377) 1.10(my reading)
SW3 Wiper Wash (Blue 2.942) 2.41 (Violet 1.377) 1.10
SW4 Wiper Hi/Lo (Blue 3.708) 3.22 (Violet 0.961) 0.74
SW5 Wiper Off (Blue 2.286) 1.88 (Violet 1.377) 1.12
SW6 Marker Lamp Flash (Blue 2.942) 2.4 (Violet 0.961) 0.78
SW7 Cruise Resume (Blue 3.747) 3.39 (Violet 4.308) 3.44
SW8 Cruise Set (Blue 3.005) 2.49 (Violet 3.79) 2.91
SW9 Cruise Cancel (Blue 2.352) 1.88 (Violet 3.334) 2.64
SW10 Cruise On/Off (Blue 3.708) 3.11 (Violet 2.25) 1.85
SW11 Headlamp Flash (Blue 2.942) 2.44 (Violet 2.25) 1.81

Why do you think I am seeing the drop of more than 1V after the clock spring?  Do you think I have a ground issue or do you think I should purchase and install the 5V converter that you recommend?  When I click on the link that someone posted to purchase the 5V converter, it is 10AMP rated.  What size of fuse do you recommend for this application?

(By the way, if anyone needs to replace your clock spring, here was a great, inexpensive source:  Part# DAC/1900043 CLOCK SPRING (FREIGHTLINER) for $183.14 (shipping included) from PERIPARTS (peri-parts.com) )

Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge!  I have learned so much from you and many others in a short amount of time being a member.  What a great group.

Trae Jones

[Dalesincal]

I am the one that installed the 10A version and it works fine.  Others have said a lower amp version is also adequate.   My voltage was in the 3.5 to 4 volt range.

[Frank McElroy]

39 minutes ago, goodtimz said:

Frank,

Hello.  I am one of those owners that has the dreaded 2009 Dynasty with the CCM I just started reading about.  I would like your expert opinion.  I am having this same issue of losing any response of my smart wheel.  I took voltage readings everywhere inside the smart wheel, see below.  The readings were at the very minimum or just below the acceptable voltage.  Because I was at 5.16V at the inlet connection of the clock spring and at 4.03V on the outlet side, I made a very uneducated guess that the clock spring was bad.  So, I purchased and installed a new clock spring and it did not fix the problem.  It makes no sense that I am getting >5V at the clock spring inlet connection and I lose >1V after the clock spring.

Here were my voltage readings:

Steering Wheel - Violet (recommended 0-5VDC) 4.5(my reading in wheel) (and at the connector to the clock spring under the dash 1.77); Blue (recommended 0-5VDC) 5.07(my reading in wheel) (and at the connector under the dash 4.3); Red (required 5VDC) 4.03(my reading in wheel) (and at the connector under the dash 5.16)

SW2 Wiper Variable (Blue 3.708) 3.22(my reading) (Violet 1.377) 1.10(my reading)
SW3 Wiper Wash (Blue 2.942) 2.41 (Violet 1.377) 1.10
SW4 Wiper Hi/Lo (Blue 3.708) 3.22 (Violet 0.961) 0.74
SW5 Wiper Off (Blue 2.286) 1.88 (Violet 1.377) 1.12
SW6 Marker Lamp Flash (Blue 2.942) 2.4 (Violet 0.961) 0.78
SW7 Cruise Resume (Blue 3.747) 3.39 (Violet 4.308) 3.44
SW8 Cruise Set (Blue 3.005) 2.49 (Violet 3.79) 2.91
SW9 Cruise Cancel (Blue 2.352) 1.88 (Violet 3.334) 2.64
SW10 Cruise On/Off (Blue 3.708) 3.11 (Violet 2.25) 1.85
SW11 Headlamp Flash (Blue 2.942) 2.44 (Violet 2.25) 1.81

Why do you think I am seeing the drop of more than 1V after the clock spring?  Do you think I have a ground issue or do you think I should purchase and install the 5V converter that you recommend?  When I click on the link that someone posted to purchase the 5V converter, it is 10AMP rated.  What size of fuse do you recommend for this application?

(By the way, if anyone needs to replace your clock spring, here was a great, inexpensive source:  Part# DAC/1900043 CLOCK SPRING (FREIGHTLINER) for $183.14 (shipping included) from PERIPARTS (peri-parts.com) )

Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge!  I have learned so much from you and many others in a short amount of time being a member.  What a great group.

Trae Jones

All the information you need is on page 1 of this thread.  A 10 amp rated converter is fine and a 5 amp rated one would be fine too.  The recommendation was to put in a 1 amp fuse on both the input and output of the converter.  But, in one installation, they had to use a 2 amp fuse on the output.  This was on a Beaver coach and this is the first time that I heard of a 1 amp fuse not working.

Yes, your voltages are too low for the SmartWheel to work.  Voltages need to be +/-0.1 volts compared to the target voltages for the SmartWheel to properly work.

As to why you are seeing a lower voltage after the clock spring something isn't right.  Are you comparing all voltages to a chassis ground or using the ground wire on the SmartWheel?  If it's the latter, you likely have a loose ground connection.

[goodtimz]

I grounded in the smart wheel to get those readings and to the chassis when checking the clock spring inlet fitting.  I will change to grounding to the chassis and check my wheel readings to see if that is the issue.  If so, I will look for the location of the smart wheel ground that is the culprit.  Thank you for the help.

Trae

[goodtimz]

Hello.  I finally had a chance to dig a little deeper into my problem.  I verified I have 5V at the connection going into the clock spring.  I have 5V at the outlet connection of the clock spring going into the control pods when these two are not connected.  When I connect these two, the voltage drops to exactly 4V.  I pulled the control pods apart to see what they were.  Power goes into the left control board and then branches over to the right control pod (board).  I was able to move the two power wires at the left board and was able to get responses from all buttons.  But there was no consistency of how to repeat this when I tried putting everything back together.  As it stands after putting everything back together, I have response from all buttons except the lights flash buttons on the top of each pod.

I am at a loss of what to do at this point.  I am thinking the control pods are bad, draining the system 1V when plugged in.  And it seems something is wrong with the power contact coming into the left board.  But I can't consistently repeat where the issue is.  I thought I would find a grounding issue, but there are no grounds in the steering wheel.

Any help you guys can offer is greatly appreciated.  Is it possible a ground further up from the clock spring inlet connector would allow the control pods to drain the leg 1V?  If so, where do I look for a weak ground.  Do you think it is bad control pods?  Where do you suggest I buy a new set?

Thank you for the knowledge and wisdom.

Trae

[Frank McElroy]

The problem is that your CCM module can't put out 5 volts under load.  Perform the modification and add an external 5 volt supply discussed in other posts 

[goodtimz]

Thank you, Frank.  That makes sense.  I just happen to have everything to make the modification.  I will post that this fixed the problem when done.  Thanks again! 

Trae

[goodtimz]

Fixed!  Thank you for your help and thank everyone else who posted on this subject to help make the job so easy.

Trae Jones

[Frank McElroy]

31 minutes ago, goodtimz said:

Fixed!  Thank you for your help and thank everyone else who posted on this subject to help make the job so easy.

Trae Jones

Congratulations - another Knongsberg chassis Multiplex CCM smart wheel problem fixed.

[promontory]

Issue: Wipers not working

Coach: 2008 Monaco Dynasty Stafford IV, Inellitec System, VIP Smartwheel.

Description: My smart wheel works with the exception of the wipers, which do not work at all. Windshield washers work, lights flash, headlights all work.

Actions taken to this point:

• Checked and changed fuses (20A and 10A) on wipers - Both good but changed to new anyway
• Verified I can hear / feel relay coil when pressing wiper buttons on steering wheel.
  • Switched with known good relay of exact make / model and still no wiper operation
• Using a power probe, I disconnected the wiper motor (single motor in my case for both wipers), and applied ground and power directly to the motor and it operated properly. 
• Thinking I need to add auxilary 5V power supply to VIP SM211

Question: I am thinking I would intercept wires feeding J4-1 and J4-2 and feed these two from the load side of the 12-5V DC-DC 10A power supply, fused on each side of power supply. Am I seeing this correctly?

Thank you for letting me resurrect an old post!

Edited April 13 by promontory
Added detail and fixed typos

[Frank McElroy]

30 minutes ago, promontory said:

Issue: Wipers not working

Coach: 2008 Monaco Dynasty Stafford IV, Inellitec System, VIP Smartwheel.

Description: My smart wheel works with the exception of the wipers, which do not work at all. Windshield washers work, lights flash, headlights all work.

Actions taken to this point:

• Checked and changed fuses (20A and 10A) on wipers - Both good but changed to new anyway
• Verified I can hear / feel relay coil when pressing wiper buttons on steering wheel.
  • Switched with known good relay of exact make / model and still no wiper operation
• Using a power probe, I disconnected the wiper motor (single motor in my case for both wipers), and applied ground and power directly to the motor and it operated properly. 
• Thinking I need to add auxilary 5V power supply to VIP SM211

Question: I am thinking I would intercept wires feeding J4-1 and J4-2 and feed these two from the load side of the 12-5V DC-DC 10A power supply, fused on each side of power supply. Am I seeing this correctly?

Thank you for letting me resurrect an old post!

The +5 VDC "fix" only applies to coaches with a Kongsberg chassis multiplex system.  If you actually have a smart wheel controller that means that you don't have a Kongsberg system.

If you have a SmartWheel control module and you hear the internal relay click but no voltage on the output wire to the wiper motor, then the relay soldered to the circuit board inside the control module likely has failed.

[Tom Cherry]

Frank beat me to it…..

CCM ONLY.

Have you seen this?..

 

[promontory]

@Frank McElroy and @Tom Cherry - Thank you for sharing your knowledge! I did not realize the other coaches in question had the Kongsberg system. Guess I'm fortunate to have the Intellitec on a 2008. Found I had already downloaded the Smartwheel Troubleshooting Guide so apparently my photographic memory is out of film. I read through it tonight though. I'll troubleshoot the controller tomorrow using the manual and see what that status is there. Again, thanks!  

[Frank McElroy]

Yes early production 2008 model year Dynasty coaches (like mine) had conventional Chassis wiring system with the conventional SmartWheel Control Module.  It was mid year production of the 2008 model year coaches that converted over from conventional to the Kongsberg chassis multiplex system.