Delamination

[Ivan K]

Can you get to it if you remove the power door and insert a thin tube? If that's where the delamination started? I can't really tell.

[jacwjames]

I had delamination on my passenger side, no slide on that side.  Ultimately I found that the upper belt molding had a gap in the sealant that allowed for water come in.  This was where the back cap and roof mated together, there was a slight bulge in the fiberglass and the sealant split right there, not much but enough for water to some in.  When it rains and if the coach is tilted in the right direction the belt molding almost acts like a gutter.  Not good. 

I had to get creative in my repair.  I was able to take my washer dryer vent off and the bedroom window out.  This gave me access.  Initially I was able to gravity feed epoxy down but eventually I had to rig a blow pipe and bottle and inject it using compressed air. 

I made a large plywood form that fit the side of the coach.    I was able to use a wall in my garage to push against the plywood., I used additional boards to help distribute the pressure.  I did the bottom part in ~1' increments.  I had everything ready so that as soon as I injected the epoxy I'd press the plywood using boards and wedges to exert quite a bit of pressure. 

Word of caution, epoxy will run pretty much any where there is a path.   I took time to seal/tape up anywhere I thought it would run.  I was able to stop most problems but it did start flowing out of the a gap above the tail pipe on the inside of the coach.  I injected some from the dry vent hole down and compressed it and let it dry and that sealed that leak.  The area was the small holes that held the dry vent on, some epoxy wept out of the holes and created a real mess.  Once epoxy dries it is almost impossible to get off.  ended up scrapping it off and then repainting. 

 

Here's a post I made showing how I put pressure on the side and the way I injected the epoxy.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by jacwjames

[Tom Cherry]

2 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

I had delamination on my passenger side, no slide on that side.  Ultimately I found that the upper belt molding had a gap in the sealant that allowed for water come in.  This was where the back cap and roof mated together, there was a slight bulge in the fiberglass and the sealant split right there, not much but enough for water to some in.  When it rains and if the coach is tilted in the right direction the belt molding almost acts like a gutter.  Not good. 

I had to get creative in my repair.  I was able to take my washer dryer vent off and the bedroom window out.  This gave me access.  Initially I was able to gravity feed epoxy down but eventually I had to rig a blow pipe and bottle and inject it using compressed air. 

I made a large plywood form that fit the side of the coach.    I was able to use a wall in my garage to push against the plywood., I used additional boards to help distribute the pressure.  I did the bottom part in ~1' increments.  I had everything ready so that as soon as I injected the epoxy I'd press the plywood using boards and wedges to exert quite a bit of pressure. 

Word of caution, epoxy will run pretty much any where there is a path.   I took time to seal/tape up anywhere I thought it would run.  I was able to stop most problems but it did start flowing out of the a gap above the tail pipe on the inside of the coach.  I injected some from the dry vent hole down and compressed it and let it dry and that sealed that leak. 

 

 

Good write up.  I was thinking that whatever filler or void filler one used, that a compression pad or plate would be needed to keep from bulging the sidewall.  Your creativity was great.  I had a less severe problem on the bottom plate or underside of my bed slide. I could see the thin plastic coated piece of “plywood” was separated from the thicker subfloor above it.  I used the forerunner to Loctite PL, LIQUID NAILS.  I made up sort of a pry bar tool to open up the contact surfaces that were delaminated.  The, I used a variety of techniques to inject Liquid Nails into the separated crack or opening. Put a piece of maybe 1/4” poly tubing over the tip of the caulk tube and got it at least a foot into the area that the slide extends from the wall…when extended.  Used small dowels and pushed and stuffed. M

Then, with the slide extended, I used a T plate and a small hydraulic jack to snug up the bottom or underside and that compressed and “squeezed” out the excess adhesive.  It went in all directions. So I cleaned up the joint between the two pieces under the bed.  The two outside edges were relaminared as close to the vacuum formed die that glued them originally, as I could get the.  That was maybe 11 years ago.  There is a Guardian plate under there now for a “void”, which I don’t think was related to the first repair.  So, that fix has stood the test of time….some 2 years of use as well as probably 50K miles.

Great job.

[jacwjames]

Ideally if you can do a repair in one shot it would be better.    I did mine in ~4 steps.  Considering the extent of delamination I'm pretty pleased with the outcome but I can see a couple ripples in the skin.  which are only noticeable from the right direction.  I think some this was caused by doing it in steps.  But overall the epoxy did a good job of bonding the outer skin to the side.   The key was being able to apply pressure ASAP after the epoxy was injected.  I used a fast cure epoxy but might have been better to use slow.   I made a mistake mixing one batch and it got hot fast and started to harden, I had to abort that batch and start over. 

[throgmartin]

Fixing delamination is a highly skilled process. It requires not only knowledge of the process but also making sure you use the correct materials.

Monaco's walls, which are fiberglass bonded to 1/4 " luann plywood, is attached to the superstructure ( wall braces ) using a specialized glue. The top and bottom of each panel is seamed and attached and then covered by the upper and lower beltlines. Delamination is caused by water intrusion into the sidewalls ( typically through a popped beltline or leaking window frame ). The Luan board rots and the fiberglass then has no rigid structure to support it causing it to bow outward. Because the luan board is so thin it rots quickly when exposed to moisture/water.

Fixing a large delam area is ultra expensive and even fixing a small area is very costly. Finding a service center to do the work is even harder. There are only 2 shops that I know of that do wall replacements the correct way and have the knowledge base to affect a perfect delam repair. The process is painstaking, requiring the right environment, temperatures, etc. It also requires the correct clamping process employed in all the right areas using specific bonding agents.

I was brought in to testify in a court case as an expert witness early this year in a delamination job that went bad. One of our members here had his coach " re-walled " at a Florida dealer and the walls delaminated and popped in a few short days. His coach was reduced to a 40,000 lb worthless piece of rolling fiberglass. Thankfully he took pictures of everything including each step in the process as the coach was being re-skinned. It didn't take me long to spot all the wrong processes they used. When he complained because the majority of his walls popped and delaminated, the dealer told him to go pound sand. So he hired a lawyer. The law firm sued the dealer and their insurance company. The insurance company elected to go to trial. That is when the coach owners law firm brought me in as an expert witness. My deposition and supporting documents helped persuade the insurance company to settle at the 11th hour just before trial. Obviously because of the settlement agreement I cannot name the dealer or the member here.

Here is my advice - If you have a delaminated wall........... Leave it the hell alone and live with it. 1.) The process to have it repaired can easily exceed the value of your coach. 2.) You will play hell trying to find a service center that truly knows the process and knows what they are doing. I have heard it all before - " My Uncle Jacks neighbor is a great fiberglass guy and works on corvettes ". Trust me when I tell you the process for professionally repairing delamination on a motorcoach wall far exceeds most body guys abilities. I know of two people who are truly experts at this process and both are no longer in the RV Industry. One of my very dear friends supervised the building of your coach at the factory and was in charge of the body construction department. He was Monaco's number 1 guy in the body building department. If you asked him he would tell you the same thing I told you - live with the delamination. There have been coach owners who have repaired small delam areas on their coach walls before by gutting the wall from the inside and replacing small sections of the luan board leaving the fiberglass in tact. How it turned out I am not sure as I never seen the finished job. I don't recommend it unless you are one helluva craftsman, have a great deal of experience working with adhesives and can build jig's and know how and where to brace/clamp the outside area.

Just as a footnote, I have delamination on my coach. I fixed it by not looking at that area. Problem solved. 🙂 

[Tom Cherry]

16 minutes ago, throgmartin said:

Fixing delamination is a highly skilled process. It requires not only knowledge of the process but also making sure you use the correct materials.

Monaco's walls, which are fiberglass bonded to 1/4 " luann plywood, is attached to the superstructure ( wall braces ) using a specialized glue. The top and bottom of each panel is seamed and attached and then covered by the upper and lower beltlines. Delamination is caused by water intrusion into the sidewalls ( typically through a popped beltline or leaking window frame ). The Luan board rots and the fiberglass then has no rigid structure to support it causing it to bow outward. Because the luan board is so thin it rots quickly when exposed to moisture/water.

Fixing a large delam area is ultra expensive and even fixing a small area is very costly. Finding a service center to do the work is even harder. There are only 2 shops that I know of that do wall replacements the correct way and have the knowledge base to affect a perfect delam repair. The process is painstaking, requiring the right environment, temperatures, etc. It also requires the correct clamping process employed in all the right areas using specific bonding agents.

I was brought in to testify in a court case as an expert witness early this year in a delamination job that went bad. One of our members here had his coach " re-walled " at a Florida dealer and the walls delaminated and popped in a few short days. His coach was reduced to a 40,000 lb worthless piece of rolling fiberglass. Thankfully he took pictures of everything including each step in the process as the coach was being re-skinned. It didn't take me long to spot all the wrong processes they used. When he complained because the majority of his walls popped and delaminated, the dealer told him to go pound sand. So he hired a lawyer. The law firm sued the dealer and their insurance company. The insurance company elected to go to trial. That is when the coach owners law firm brought me in as an expert witness. My deposition and supporting documents helped persuade the insurance company to settle at the 11th hour just before trial. Obviously because of the settlement agreement I cannot name the dealer or the member here.

Here is my advice - If you have a delaminated wall........... Leave it the hell alone and live with it. 1.) The process to have it repaired can easily exceed the value of your coach. 2.) You will play hell trying to find a service center that truly knows the process and knows what they are doing. I have heard it all before - " My Uncle Jacks neighbor is a great fiberglass guy and works on corvettes ". Trust me when I tell you the process for professionally repairing delamination on a motorcoach wall far exceeds most body guys abilities. I know of two people who are truly experts at this process and both are no longer in the RV Industry. One of my very dear friends supervised the building of your coach at the factory and was in charge of the body construction department. He was Monaco's number 1 guy in the body building department. If you asked him he would tell you the same thing I told you - live with the delamination. There have been coach owners who have repaired small delam areas on their coach walls before by gutting the wall from the inside and replacing small sections of the luan board leaving the fiberglass in tact. How it turned out I am not sure as I never seen the finished job. I don't recommend it unless you are one helluva craftsman, have a great deal of experience working with adhesives and can build jig's and know how and where to brace/clamp the outside area.

Just as a footnote, I have delamination on my coach. I fixed it by not looking at that area. Problem solved. 🙂 

@throgmartin

You have GOT to stop hacking my PM’s.  Around noon yesterday, after reading the original post, which I merged with a longer and more comprehensive Delamination topic, I reached out to our blue ribbon Gathering Planning committee and suggested a discussion/presentation on DELAMINATION.  I even suggested you as a possible candidate.  I think you just wrapped up that issue.  
 

Thanks….MANY THANKS….  Good post…

[throgmartin]

Dave and I always have a meeting of the minds when it comes to my seminars. I have done 9 different seminars on various topics all over the USA over the years and one more wont hurt. Whatever ya'll need for a seminar at the gathering I am game. Which reminds me, I am completely revamping my seminars for next year and updating them. I like to keep them fresh as well as add new items to the seminars I have recently learned.

[jacwjames]

I've been walking by delam area for ~5 years now but finally have a garage/shop where I can work on it.  When I tackled my delamination I figured anything I did couldn't hurt it any worse then it was.  Since i did it myself the cost was minimal.  I knew I was not going to take it a shop to fix.  

A friend of mine was the shop manager for the Camping World body shop near me and he came out and looked at my problem and I threw my idea out at him and he said that it "might" work.   So I figured what he hell.

Overall I'm satisfied and so far the repair has held, but it may go south at any time.   The picture (sorry it's turned sideways) is after I was done.  Still a little ripple in the skin but it is all solid.  I used a pretty liberal amount of epoxy and I'm is penetrated into and through the plywood.  Making a large template and using lots of pressure to press against the side of the coach while it cured overnight also helped. Time will tell though.    This job was not for the faint of heart. 

The second picture is the location of the leak, this is the seam from the roof & rear cap overlapping the side wall.  There was not a good seal on the belt molding.  The water went down the side but also followed the belt molding down the back, every screw was rusted out.  I replaced with SS rivets.