Delamination

[tcbrow]

2001 Diplomat, I had to remove the driver's side window to send it out for defogging. While it is out I thought I'd try to do something about the bit of delam in that body panel. All I can really think to do is inject epoxy in there with a syringe. Does anyone have any better ideas or helpful hints?

[JDCrow]

6 minutes ago, tcbrow said:

2001 Diplomat, I had to remove the driver's side window to send it out for defogging. While it is out I thought I'd try to do something about the bit of delam in that body panel. All I can really think to do is inject epoxy in there with a syringe. Does anyone have any better ideas or helpful hints?

Pics? I was under the understanding that the walls on Monaco’s are hung 

[FishAR]

1 hour ago, JDCrow said:

Pics? I was under the understanding that the walls on Monaco’s are hung 

Here's a video of a repair of a winnebago (monaco years).

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by FishAR

[JDCrow]

9 minutes ago, FishAR said:

Here's a video of a repair of a winnebago (monaco years).

 

I follow him as well, and poured over that video. But it is a laminated wall, not a hung wall. So I’m still under the impression Monaco used a hung wall. I believe only Newmar still builds its coaches with a hung wall. 
 

That is a Filon wall if I remember right. And Monaco is Fiberglas/gel coat? 

Edited July 21, 2021 by JDCrow
Spelling

[FishAR]

11 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

I follow him as well, and poured over that video. But it is a laminated wall, not a hung wall. So I’m still under the impression Monaco used a hung wall. I believe only Newmar still builds its coaches with a hung wall. 
 

That is a Filon wall if I remember right. And Monaco is Fiberglas/gel coat? 

I guess I don't know the difference, but am interested in knowing.

Especially how my Monaco is made.

[Ivan K]

2 hours ago, JDCrow said:

Pics? I was under the understanding that the walls on Monaco’s are hung 

So what would, you call this wall? One pic of drivers window opening, the other is window in the slide.

[JDCrow]

7 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

So what would, you call this wall? One pic of drivers window opening, the other is window in the slide.

Is there luan between the out side fiberglass and the aluminum framing? 

35 minutes ago, FishAR said:

I guess I don't know the difference, but am interested in knowing.

Especially how my Monaco is made.

So my understanding, which is often limited, is the hung wall is Fiberglass glued directly to the wall framing. So there is more framing versus a vacuum bonded wall where the foam and Luan are sandwiches and the foam becomes “structural”. So less framing or even wood framing is used instead of steel or aluminum.

Here is a quick video of Monaco back in the day. It doesn’t show the outside wall being built, but shows how the roof is built and again, it’s my understanding wall we’re built same. 
 

 

[Ivan K]

2 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

Is there luan between the out side fiberglass and the aluminum framing? 

I would say yes, thin layer that looks like plywood,  same on the inside. It's been few years since I resealed the windows and the pics are all I have.

[FishAR]

11 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

Is there luan between the out side fiberglass and the aluminum framing? 

So my understanding, which is often limited, is the hung wall is Fiberglass glued directly to the wall framing. So there is more framing versus a vacuum bonded wall where the foam and Luan are sandwiches and the foam becomes “structural”. So less framing or even wood framing is used instead of steel or aluminum.

Here is a quick video of Monaco back in the day. It doesn’t show the outside wall being built, but shows how the roof is built and again, it’s my understanding wall we’re built same. 
 

 

Thanks, I just found the 2007 monaco camelot brochure, it shows the outside fiberglass going directly on the wall studs.

[JDCrow]

4 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

I would say yes, thin layer that looks like plywood,  same on the inside. It's been few years since I resealed the windows and the pics are all I have.

Ok I haven’t pulled any windows on mine to be 100%. I only say this as I purposely sought a Monaco/HR because of the way they were built. I haven’t seen one delaminated. If it’s around a window, then perhaps the glue/adhesive has lost the bond on that framing. 
 

Again, I’m going off what I’ve researched having never seen the construction first hand. 

[Gary 05 AMB DST]

My 05 Ambassador's passenger side roof beltline caulking dried out and cracked. It caused the luan to delaminate. I wasn't aware of this potential problem and never checked it. This was within 4years since bought new.  All those days facing east with the sun beating on the roof. I watch it closely now.

Gary 05 AMB DST

[tcbrow]

Thanks for the replies. I watched both videos and am not prepared to go that far. Minor delamination under the window and extra, added sealant around the window frame tell me that it was leaking. The delamination was a small area and wasn't causing any problems. I just thought I might try something while I had access. Thinking more about it injecting epoxy probably won't do much to help the issue without replacing the luan. Thanks again for the discussion.

[JDCrow]

4 minutes ago, Gary 05 AMB DST said:

My 05 Ambassador's passenger side roof beltline caulking dried out and cracked. It caused the luan to delaminate. I wasn't aware of this potential problem and never checked it. This was within 4years since bought new.  All those days facing east with the sun beating on the roof. I watch it closely now.

Gary 05 AMB DST

So there was luan between the metal framing and the fiberglass delaminated away from the luan? 

1 minute ago, tcbrow said:

Thanks for the replies. I watched both videos and am not prepared to go that far. Minor delamination under the window and extra, added sealant around the window frame tell me that it was leaking. The delamination was a small area and wasn't causing any problems. I just thought I might try something while I had access. Thinking more about it injecting epoxy probably won't do much to help the issue without replacing the luan. Thanks again for the discussion.

I agree, can’t hurt. Anyway to clamp it to being it back straight? 

[JDCrow]

Thanks everyone, I’m trying to figure out the construction to learn how to best care for my coach. Can never know enough 

[Ivan K]

31 minutes ago, tcbrow said:

Thanks for the replies. I watched both videos and am not prepared to go that far. Minor delamination under the window and extra, added sealant around the window frame tell me that it was leaking. The delamination was a small area and wasn't causing any problems. I just thought I might try something while I had access. Thinking more about it injecting epoxy probably won't do much to help the issue without replacing the luan. Thanks again for the discussion.

If you use a slow curing epoxy, it will soak into the wood and if you clamp it good, with a wide board, you will never know it was there. They use those for restoring boat transom etc.

[Ivylog]

On our 04 dynasty had a delamination area of back right hand side of the motorhome. Finally figured out that the drain on the rear air conditioning was causing the water separation… It was not a leak that could be sealed.

Drill a small hole at the bottom of the separation and by pressing on the fiberglass skin I could pump the water out… there has to be a solid backing, probably thin laun plywood. Thought about drilling several holes at the top of the separation and putting in a waterproof liquid glue but the area was small enough I never got around to trying that.

[Chargerman]

There is a very thin Liam layer that is boded to the fiberglass. Delamination with this material usually is caused by water intrusion that deteriorates the Liam and it looses its bond to the fiberglass skin

[JDCrow]

1 hour ago, Chargerman said:

There is a very thin Liam layer that is boded to the fiberglass. Delamination with this material usually is caused by water intrusion that deteriorates the Liam and it looses its bond to the fiberglass skin

Sounds like luan needs to be eliminated from the process. Still used extensively today. 
 

I know my slide boxes have it in them, as they came apart but really didn’t delam. The Guardian plates fixed the issue very well 

 

Thanks for chiming in, goes back to keeping water out, at all costs 

[Chargerman]

It is so frustrating that they used it back then. I know these coaches were not built with the thought that they would still look so good at this age but if they hadn’t used wood under the fiberglass they would not have delamination issues. I had to repair mine under the drivers window due to a crap repair to the window years earlier when a vendor repaired a fogged window. 

[Ray Davis]

9 hours ago, JDCrow said:

Sounds like luan needs to be eliminated from the process. Still used extensively today. 

It does seem like wrong thinking using luan that is so fragile especially when wet.

There was a post quite awhile back on IRV2 by a tech who stated that they use aluminum sheets in place of luan when repairing delamination.   He didn't respond to farther questions though.   Trade secrets probably.

[Larry Laursen]

Based on several plant tours, Monaco used 2 different wall construction based on the model.  Diplomats, Knights, Cayman and Endeavor, Ambassador, Neptune, pre 2009 used aluminum frame that was installed with the interior surface pre-mounted.  The frame was then filled with insulation after wiring was installed.  The exterior then glued and clamped to the frame.  The exterior layer was luan plywood with sprayed fiberglass and gel coat.  The high line coaches used a fully bonded wall structure that has solid foam as the insulation.  You can tell the difference by looking at the electrical outlets.  The fiberglass sidewalls have outlets, whereas in the bonded walls, the outlets are in the interior cabinets because the wiring doesn't go through the walls.  

I have used Gorilla glue with a hypodermic syringe to repair delamination on the slide bottom.  It might work on a small area of the side wall if it is going into the luan.

[JDCrow]

29 minutes ago, Larry Laursen said:

Based on several plant tours, Monaco used 2 different wall construction based on the model.  Diplomats, Knights, Cayman and Endeavor, Ambassador, Neptune, pre 2009 used aluminum frame that was installed with the interior surface pre-mounted.  The frame was then filled with insulation after wiring was installed.  The exterior then glued and clamped to the frame.  The exterior layer was luan plywood with sprayed fiberglass and gel coat.  The high line coaches used a fully bonded wall structure that has solid foam as the insulation.  You can tell the difference by looking at the electrical outlets.  The fiberglass sidewalls have outlets, whereas in the bonded walls, the outlets are in the interior cabinets because the wiring doesn't go through the walls.  

I have used Gorilla glue with a hypodermic syringe to repair delamination on the slide bottom.  It might work on a small area of the side wall if it is going into the luan.

Thanks for clarifying. Yes I have outlets in the walls held in by slim boxes that have tabs that grab the luan backed interior walls 

[dl_racing427]

1 hour ago, Larry Laursen said:

Based on several plant tours, Monaco used 2 different wall construction based on the model.  Diplomats, Knights, Cayman and Endeavor, Ambassador, Neptune, pre 2009 used aluminum frame that was installed with the interior surface pre-mounted.  The frame was then filled with insulation after wiring was installed.  The exterior then glued and clamped to the frame.  The exterior layer was luan plywood with sprayed fiberglass and gel coat.  The high line coaches used a fully bonded wall structure that has solid foam as the insulation.  You can tell the difference by looking at the electrical outlets.  The fiberglass sidewalls have outlets, whereas in the bonded walls, the outlets are in the interior cabinets because the wiring doesn't go through the walls.  

I have used Gorilla glue with a hypodermic syringe to repair delamination on the slide bottom.  It might work on a small area of the side wall if it is going into the luan.

Even my 1993 Dynasty is like this.  II can actually see slight distortion following the triangulated framework in the side walls, but the exterior has held up very well considering the age.
That does explain all the outlets being in the cabinets, thanks Larry.

[Chad A]

Moderators EDIT.

This topic was merged with an older one that had a lot of pertinent information.  It is suggested that an additional search of topics using delamination be used.  Number of hits with topics that had many replies or posts

Original Post

The sun was shining right the other day and I noticed a spot that looked like it had a bubble behind it. I went and pushed on it and sure enough it had separated from the wood. 
 

The area is just above where the power cord comes in. It stops on the top at what looks like a cross brace and goes down to just above the belt line. About the color change, delamination is area in tan. 
 

I can access the back of this area from inside the bedroom closet. 
 

2 questions

 

One: I had the coach sealed up by a reputable company a year ago and if water was coming in from the top you would think that the delamination would be up above as well. Any idea where the water could be coming from?

Two: If I drill holes through the plywood from the inside of the wall and inject glue into the void. Apply pressure from the inside and the outside. Do you think this would work to fix the problem?

[CMillet86]

Just noticed this exact spot on my 03 dynasty this morning. Problem with drilling from the inside is not drill all the way through in my opinion. I would saw that best way is to somehow inject the epoxy through the slide area. I'm still trying to figure out my plan of attack.