Houghton Install/Thermostat Dead

[Coach J]

2 hours ago, klcdenver said:

It kinda sounds like it is overheating. Clean your filter and make sure no obstructions on return air. Take shroud off up top and make sure coils or not plugged up with dirt and leaves.

It will run like a champ on high so would you still think it’s possibly overheating?  I did not have ladder access this weekend but i will get up top tomorrow and see. It just hs me stumped because the back ac runs just fine. 

[Coach J]

2 hours ago, klcdenver said:

It kinda sounds like it is overheating. Clean your filter and make sure no obstructions on return air. Take shroud off up top and make sure coils or not plugged up with dirt and leaves.

As a matter of fact I went and checked and since the temperatures have cooled down it is working exactly like it should. It worked last night like it should. Seems the only issues are in the heat of the day so maybe it is overheating. 

[klcdenver]

I have finished the installation of the Houghton. In the black box attached is only 12 volt wiring and temp sensor and the RJ 11 communication lines. I bought the box off Amazon. I had to modify the return air and forced conditioned air separator, picture attached. I had to make the attach bolts out of some all thread rod (#8x1.25). I made them  9” long and just welded a nut on one end to have a hex head. 
 

Now for the good part. My old penguin 13,500 BTU with a wacko silencer was 58 decibels. It would heat to 106 degrees and cool to 39 degrees in the duck work. The Houghton is 53 decibels. It heats to 112 degrees and cools to 33 degrees in the duct work. I took the temps in the same place for both. It is much quieter on the outside versus the penguin's also.

I should have included this picture also which is the control board and wiring.

[Gary 05 AMB DST]

2 hours ago, klcdenver said:

I have finished the installation of the Houghton. In the black box attached is only 12 volt wiring and temp sensor and the RJ 11 communication lines. I bought the box off Amazon. I had to modify the return air and forced conditioned air separator, picture attached. I had to make the attach bolts out of some all thread rod (#8x1.25). I made them  9” long and just welded a nut on one end to have a hex head. 
 

Now for the good part. My old penguin 13,500 BTU with a wacko silencer was 58 decibels. It would heat to 106 degrees and cool to 39 degrees in the duck work. The Houghton is 53 decibels. It heats to 112 degrees and cools to 33 degrees in the duct work. I took the temps in the same place for both. It is much quieter on the outside versus the penguin's also.

I should have included this picture also which is the control board and wiring.

Ken, by leaving the black box in, you still have your MH thermostat operating the Monaco installed A/C and furnaces. The Houghton has its own thermostat to control the heating/cooling.

Gary 05 AMB DST

[klcdenver]

By leaving the 12volt in it keeps the 5 button control panel working the front furnace plus the rear penguin in all modes. 

[Gary 05 AMB DST]

54 minutes ago, klcdenver said:

By leaving the 12volt in it keeps the 5 button control panel working the front furnace plus the rear penguin in all modes. 

Ken, I still have my original A/C's and I know their life is nearing an end. I wasn't happy with replacing them (hopefully one at a time) and having to replace the thermostat to the CCC(?) thermostat. I didn't want to get involved with a technician to do it. When I saw that the Houghton's had their own thermostat, I felt like it's getting closer to doing the install without changing the existing thermostat. Thank You for making my day.

Gary 05 AMB DST

[klcdenver]

Gary you are welcome. If the Houghton holds up in the long run it will be a great improvement. 

[veraken]

18 hours ago, klcdenver said:

I have finished the installation of the Houghton. In the black box attached is only 12 volt wiring and temp sensor and the RJ 11 communication lines. I bought the box off Amazon. I had to modify the return air and forced conditioned air separator, picture attached. I had to make the attach bolts out of some all thread rod (#8x1.25). I made them  9” long and just welded a nut on one end to have a hex head. 
 

Now for the good part. My old penguin 13,500 BTU with a wacko silencer was 58 decibels. It would heat to 106 degrees and cool to 39 degrees in the duck work. The Houghton is 53 decibels. It heats to 112 degrees and cools to 33 degrees in the duct work. I took the temps in the same place for both. It is much quieter on the outside versus the penguin's also.

I should have included this picture also which is the control board and wiring.

Please provide the link/info on the box you bought on Amazon.

[klcdenver]

Sorry I am not good with linking and all that. I have attached a picture of what I used. You will have to cut slot/hole in to the box to insert the wires. You will also need to drill a few holes to mount the inserts to hold the control board. Call me or pm me if I can help you more.

[Tom Cherry]

Just a short note for, I think, clarification.  Ken said the the 13.5 K Unit Up front had the board in the plenum.  That is why he chose the box and materials. Great job and super informative.

He also tested the rear which was a 15K unit.  IIRC, as well as based on my units, the Control Module is mounted on the AC unit on the roof.  Therefore if or when he replaces it, he will have to find a top side location on the Houghton under the shroud or mount it in the inside plenum.

I do not know if the 15K board is the same PN or is the same PCB on a different chassis nor how they compare, physically, in size.

JUST BE AWARE…!  This is a great HOW TO topic and a lot of useful and correct information is included…..learned a lot…which will benefit others in the future

Kudo’s to Ken for sharing and experimenting 

[veraken]

For those interested, here are the links for the parts Ken purchased on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XSQZ5M6/?coliid=I1ARLJRRGV3I4Z&colid=2SKIZ1L3ZC7J5&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016PNUCA8/?coliid=I25BO22A0D15BZ&colid=2SKIZ1L3ZC7J5&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

[1nolaguy]

I know this is a very late reply. Somehow this post was emailed to me today. If anyone is still following I am curious how the OP was able to keep the old penguin II thermostat alive to control the LP heat. Both our Penguin II units died about 3 years ago, while we were in Florida. I replaced both units with Haughton/Recpro A/C-Heat Pumps, which have their own internal thermostats that are also controlled by a remote. While I left the Penguin II "brains" inside the ceiling install the OEM 5 button controller no longer functioned and the LP furnaces no longer work. I do not think it is a furnace issue but that they are not getting signal from the 5 button control. In your situation how did you address this?

[Tom Cherry]

If you search and read here….THIS IS how it has to work.

It matters not if you have one thermostat with a furnace and multiple zones….such as a single thermostat in the front and it controls the the front unit as well as zone 2 and it controls the back unit…or if you have a front and rear thermostat….and single or multiple furnaces or an Aquahot with several zones….

It also matters not if you have a 4 button or a 5 button Duo Therm/Dometic thermostat.  The data cable (think phone wire) starts at the thermostat.  It runs to the front unit and is connected to a Control Module on the unit (for the 13.5 K in the plenum..INSIDE and for a 15K…on the roof under the cover).  There is 12 VDC and 120 VAC that comes to the unit.  The data cable runs to the thermostat.  2 wires provide 12 VDC. The other two wires carry a multiplexed data signal from the thermostat to the control unit.  That signal tells the HVAC to cool or heat if also a heat pump.  It also controls the fan mode and such. IF there is a furnace connection for the front (zone 1), then it controls the furnace.

IF the thermostat controls the rear (bedroom zone 2), then that data cable runs back to the rear unit.  There is a similar control module there….and there is a remote temp sensor on the wall.  If you have TWO furnaces….then one will be connected to the control module.  If only ONE for the MH….then there will be NO “Furnace” or HEAT mode for Zone 2.

The Dometic Multiplexed thermostats do NOT work like a home thermostat….with a 5 or 7 wire cable running to the roof top or the furnace.  All the signals are electronically sent (digital) to whichever control module needs help.  The caveat….you can NOT heat in the front and cool in the rear..

NOW, the furnaces that Monaco used were NON CONVENTIONAL units.  They only have two wires.   There is incoming 12VDC to the control board.  These furnaces are “DUMB”.  There is a two wire pair, often called the BLUE wires that is connected the HAVAC unit up front.  The furnace only knows one thing.  If there is a circuit or the two wires are “switched” on (think twisting a wire nut on them), the furnace comes on.  Break the circuit or disconnect them.  OFF.

YES….you can install the RecPro and use the ceiling thermostat (or maybe your phone) and you operate the Air Conditioner.  BUT….there is NO circuit or connection to run or operate the furnace.  You have to remove the control units from each Dometic HVAC and then “reinstall” each on the plenum.  Now, you have to find the pair of wires that connected to the plug on the control unit.  Dometic uses BLUE…but Monaco ran two wires to the furnace.  Some were color coded….some were “white” with a label.  These wires have to be connected directly to the Furnace Contacts on the controller.  The thermostat and the controller(s) have to be wired exactly as they were in the original Monaco MH.  You have to do a reset.  You will ONLY have HEAT or a Furnace ZONE…I think.  If you have AC, it is connected to NOTHING and won’t control the RecPro

SO, the only thing that the old or original thermostat now controls or will control is the furnace.  Many folks, as well as at least 50% of the technicians never understood this.  They would rip out the old rooftop unit and throw it away with the control module.  They did not look at the print on the original unit and then figure out how to hook up the 120VAC and maybe the 12 VDC.  But there were more wires….two of them were the wires to the furnace….and they were left disconnected.  There is a TON of information and frustration on the Air Stream sites and the RecPros were the “cheaper” option….  There was maybe a dozen or so “authorized” factory repair shops in the US that actually made the old Dometic (Duo Therm) system work and the thermostat would control the furnace.

Most had wire mold installed and the two wires from the furnace were run from the furnace and up the wall.  The “Coleman” and other “Generic RV Thermostat” were all DC powered.  You can NOT use one of these.  When you try, the Furnace OUTPUT did strange things.  The two wires were electically neutral or insulated or isolated. Putting 12 VDC on them was known to cause issues or blow fuses or not work,  it FINALLY hit some of the shops.   You had to use the Furnace Output 12 VDC on a relay coil.  Then the two wires from the furnace were on the contacts….so in effect….think of it as an “electronic” light switch.  If you ran the two wires inside the Motor home….you could use a wall light switch or any switch….flip the switch ON….furnace runs….turn it off….Furnace is OFF.

Coleman also says flat out….we do NOT make an RV thermostat with DRY or no POWER furnace output.

Somewhere, and I have posted this many times, is a special mechanical (no incoming power) thermostat on Amazon.  It allows you to adjust the temperature and it operates and runs the furnace.  BUT, it HAS to have or should have an OFF setting.  Many don't…

THUS…a functional thermostat hard wired from the furnace…

THAT’s IT.  As a Moderator, we warn folks that the RecPro solution requires extensive knowledge of the system.  BUT, from a coat standpoint, it may be more costly than replacing the Penguins and updating to the new CCC2 MPX system.  The 4 button is extinct…you can find old, maybe refurbished 5 button.  MicroAir sells a replacement for around $400 (last I heard).  The 5 button CCC Control Module is still in production….but eventually it will be discontinued.  So, if it dies, a new one will be around $200.  Therefore, to keep your old furnace running, you will spend up to $600.  Microair has been a bit elusive.  A member once posted that MicroAir will “reflash” or convert the old 5 button to the new CCC2 syatem…10 button?  BUT, he never confirmed…Microair told me….NOPE…buy the NEW 10 button replacment…or $400.

Many members have successfully kept and rewired, properly, the 5 button system.  Many members have made disparaging remarks in that we moderators don’t like the RecPro’s and they are up to day and very intelligent.  That is NOT THE CASE.  The RecPros work great as stand alone units,  if RecPro would incorporate a dry (no voltage) set of contacts that would also operate a furnace so that you had dual mode ….CHILL, OFF, HEAT….that would be a perfect solution.

There are also comments about MicroAir.  Yes, they are technologically better than the Dometic and folks enjoy the phone programming…compared to,the  older of existing ones.  BUT the techs at MicroAir said, point blank, we do NOT understand nor can help you troubleshoot the Dometic MPX control system.  Dometic has to do that.  Dometic is less than willing, we have been told, to try to troubleshoot a failed system as they have NO knowledge of the internal MicroAir systdm.

What we have learned and post is that a mixed system is difficult.  One member said MicroAir was sending a new thermostat.  All well and good…but the issue was in the Dometic Control Module.  He eventually, swapped the front to the rear….bingo…problem moved.  A NEW thermostat would NOT have fixed that.  

Just want folks to understand that a cheaper system, which uses old and antiquated controls might, in the long run cost them more…but many folks intrnd to gef rid of the MH in the next few years and are willing to gamble,

Hope this makes sense…and that you now have a better understanding.  Wihiut knowing if your control modules were salvaged and hooked up, properly, difficult to help trouble shoot…

[cbr046]

37 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Somewhere, and I have posted this many times, is a special mechanical (no incoming power) thermostat on Amazon.  It allows you to adjust the temperature and it operates and runs the furnace.  BUT, it HAS to have or should have an OFF setting.  Many don't…

THUS…a functional thermostat hard wired from the furnace…

If I were contemplating an upgrade this is probably the approach I would take.  MicroAir, or something with bluetooth option, and an independent dumb thermostat for the furnace.  Hopefully that won't be soon. 

- bob

[96 EVO]

On 3/1/2023 at 12:25 PM, klcdenver said:

  It heats to 112 degrees and cools to 33 degrees in the duct work. I took the temps in the same place for both. 

I should have included this picture also which is the control board and wiring.

That's going to fluctuate depending on indoor and outdoor temperature!

Yesterday, while exercising my gen, I was getting 123F out of my factory installed Duo-Therms.

It was warm enough that I didn't need heat, but those are my 'go to' for putting a load on the gen.

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, cbr046 said:

If I were contemplating an upgrade this is probably the approach I would take.  MicroAir, or something with bluetooth option, and an independent dumb thermostat for the furnace.  Hopefully that won't be soon. 

 

OK….one at a time.  If you choose a Coleman or such, then mounting a Microair thermostat will not work.  You need control wiring (5 conductor) to the Coleman or any typical ceiling unit…with or without a heat pump. Monaco never ran wires for a conventional system.  You need a thermostat cable from the new MicroAir to the ceiling as well as wire to the furnace. MicroAir thermostat requires either a thermostat cable (multiple wires) or a MPX Data cable for a Dometic or Penguin system….and the 4/5 and 10 button are not interchangeable.

Next up…the popular Houghton RecPro has only a cooling thermostat.Also, there is only one brand and style of “dumb” thermostat that will work.  If you use a typical  RV thermostat, you must put in a relay to have dry or unpowered contacts for the furnace.  

If you choose to use the MPX data cables….and MicroAir makes one for the old (4/5) and new (10) button units, you STILL have to have the individual unit control modules in place. Otherwise, if you choose a NON MPX or a “Coleman Style” RV unit….hard wired multiple (cable) wire from thermostat to ceiling…

Just making sure some other member does not take your generic comment and then try to implement and run into the complexity and reality of “project”…as many have….and regretted….

 

These little nuances are not fully understood..

[cbr046]

9 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Next up…the popular Houghton RecPro has only a cooling thermostat.Also, there is only one brand and style of “dumb” thermostat that will work.  If you use a typical  RV thermostat, you must put in a relay to have dry or unpowered contacts for the furnace. 

Yes, it can get very complex with all the combinations not engineered to work together. 

I was thinking something like THIS for a standalone furnace control.  Simple, and been using one a 2 wire version for 120V in series with a space heater for many seasons.   It's just a simple temperature controlled switch.  I'm guessing 2 wires connect and 2 wires disconnect at the set temp. 

Oddly, the 2 wire version is in Celsius . . .

Again, this is just one piece of the puzzle, but it frees up options for heat pump / AC / multiple zones.  Choose carefully!

- bob

 

[Tom Cherry]

3 minutes ago, cbr046 said:

Yes, it can get very complex with all the combinations not engineered to work together. 

I was thinking something like THIS for a standalone furnace control.  Simple, and been using one a 2 wire version for 120V in series with a space heater for many seasons.   It's just a simple temperature controlled switch.  I'm guessing 2 wires connect and 2 wires disconnect at the set temp. 

Oddly, the 2 wire version is in Celsius . . .

Again, this is just one piece of the puzzle, but it frees up options for heat pump / AC / multiple zones.  Choose carefully!

 

- bob

 

YEP.  We are on the same page.  This is called, and I have wired them in many houses, a “LINE VOLAGE Thermostat.  Was meant to work, at least the ones I used, on 240 or 120 VAC.  Two incoming contacts….two outgoing contacts.  All you need to use is the “switched” contacts.  HOWEVER, some were Dual Pole….so when the diaphragm closed the switch….BOTH contacts closed.  So, use a VOM and verify or look at instructions.

Honeywell or Johnson Controls makes the same….in degrees F.  BUT many did NOT have an OFF.  You need one with an off position.

That is the only way to salvage a botched RecPro install if the control module and wiring have been botched or destroyed.  But, you need to “hide or disguise” the cable….thus snake or run down a closet or such.  #14 wire is fine.  All the T’Stat does is make or break a circuit….

 

[Brad Loehr]

10 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Many members have successfully kept and rewired, properly, the 5 button system.  Many members have made disparaging remarks in that we moderators don’t like the RecPro’s and they are up to day and very intelligent.  That is NOT THE CASE.  The RecPros work great as stand alone units,  if RecPro would incorporate a dry (no voltage) set of contacts that would also operate a furnace so that you had dual mode ….CHILL, OFF, HEAT….that would be a perfect solution.

I would think Recpro does not incorporate a control for an auxillary furnace into their system for a reason and never will.  The IR remote control to control the onboard thermostat and controls is a better system because everything is contained.  No need to run thermostat wiring through walls or ceilings and have to work with a wall thermostat that would fail.  Also can integrate into smart features to control the IR with your phone for only $40ish.

They are engineered in Australia so if the need for heat in your RV or caravan is a must then the heat pump will work fine to temperatures of around 0 degrees Celsius.  I imagine in Australia propane heated furnaces are overkill.

[96 EVO]

2 minutes ago, Brad Loehr said:

   I imagine in Australia propane heated furnaces are overkill.

Actually, the Aussie's are big on installing Chinese diesel heaters, same as I did!

[Tom Cherry]

10 hours ago, Brad Loehr said:

I would think Recpro does not incorporate a control for an auxillary furnace into their system for a reason and never will.  The IR remote control to control the onboard thermostat and controls is a better system because everything is contained.  No need to run thermostat wiring through walls or ceilings and have to work with a wall thermostat that would fail.  Also can integrate into smart features to control the IR with your phone for only $40ish.

They are engineered in Australia so if the need for heat in your RV or caravan is a must then the heat pump will work fine to temperatures of around 0 degrees Celsius.  I imagine in Australia propane heated furnaces are overkill.

SORT OF A WHIMSICAL retort to the AUSSIE.  I was at the NCAA Men Basketball Final Four in Phoenix a few weeks ago.  We had a Jeep rental and were doing some sight seeing.  My BIL was driving and is not exactly the most coordinated and he has difficulty in moving his head whilst driving...  I do a LOT of praying when he is zipping downhill at 80 MPH and can't "see".  He was in a hurry and handed me back our NP Golden Eagle Pass.  He said here...and just dropped it.  OPPS...I did not have time to grasp it.  SO, it fell between the seat and the console.  TOTALLY out of reach.  I contrived a method of using duct tape (adhesive exposed) on a dowel to extricate it.  We drove on and I caught up with a couple in a Class C.  I conned them out of a foot of Gorilla Duct Tape.  VERY NICE folks.  They had just bought a used (26 years old) Caravan and Toad in Florida....and were driving back across the US and headed for California...  The gentleman gave me a guided tour of the unit and how pristine it was.  He then said that he had searched all over the US to find it.  He went ON.  As long as it was over 25 years OLD...it was considered as an ANTIQUE and NOT subject to import duties....which were unbelievable.  As I understood it...these restrictions were set up by the Aussie government to encourage local manufacturing.  SO, he could NOT afford to buy a newer Caravan in the US and import it as the cost would be prohibitive...

We have NOT, to my knowledge, ever had an Aussie or a NZ'er post here.  I DO know from a few trips to NZ and AU, the there are few, if any "NEW CARS".  There is a trade agreement (or there was in 1995) that allowed older (2 -3 YO) Japanese (as in MADE IN JAPAN) cars to be imported with NO IMPORT fees.  There was, said the economics professor that was our host, a tax on OLDER cars in Japan....so you had to sell or trade your car before it was, say 4 years or so old, otherwise there was a 25% tax....and then it escalated.  

Afterwards, I started looking at the cars.... ALL Japanese....very few German car brands.  MAY NOT BE THE SAME NOW...but the RV Aussie owner, very astute and knowledgable.....gave me an ECON lesson in the Petrified Forest.  BTW...  I removed a plastic wand from the drapery in the hotel and "snuck" it out....but on the way to breakfast...it hit me.  My old 4 finger "Tool Picker Upper" at home was shot.  I bought a new one at O'Reilly's and extricated the credit card style pass in less than 15 seconds.  I must have spent hours contemplating HOW to lift it up with various devices that I had on me.

OK...back to fixing Monaco's here....

 @96 EVO  Ben, PLEASE TELL ME that you do NOT have an auxillary Chinese Diesel Heater in your Scepter...  I worry about you...  LOL... 

[96 EVO]

I sure do!

Best mod I've made yet. Bedtime, Aqua Hot goes off. Quiet diesel heating goes on 👍!