need help with changing marker lights

[1nolaguy]

Our coach marker or running lights started to fail and since they were believed to be 18 yr old I decided to replace them with new led versions. The first one was easy to change but the rest are proving to be a real bear. I do not know if it was the factory or some subsequent tech or diy but the fixtures are silicone in place including the screws and housings. The fixtures deteriorated when I tried to remove them. The socket is sourounded by a black rubber material that is like rubber cement and almost impossible to remove. Available wiring is about 1". Any suggestions on how deal with this?

[vito.a]

Are these the ones on the roof?  If so, mine were also siliconed in.  I think that's so water doesn't leak in.  

I used a pair of hemostats to hold the wires.  

[gdroberson]

I removed that black r5ubber part and there was longer wire behind it 

[1nolaguy]

Thanks for the hemostat suggestion. I had not thought of that. If this is OEM, What a crappy design.

1 minute ago, gdroberson said:

I removed that black r5ubber part and there was longer wire behind it 

What did you use to remove the black rubber part? Even with HD needle nose pliers I can not get it to budge.

[gdroberson]

I just took some needle nose pliers and tore it out there is a 1 in hole through the fiberglass the lights are put on last

[Rick A]

It removed the old rubber grommet and used these to replace them. I siliconed them back in.  ISPINNER 52pcs 6 Sizes Rubber Grommet, Double Sided Round Rubber Hole Plug, Drill Hole 5/8" 13/16" 7/8" 1" 1-3/16" 1-1/2" https://a.co/d/ddyRYIQ

[Guest Ray Davis]

You need more wire,  1 inch is too risky so I would probably first extend them about a foot by cutting and soldering one at a time then use heat shrink tubing.

Again, don't let go,   you could tie a string on um.   Led lights are polarity sensitive so turn each one on before making permanent connections.

[Jdw12345]

I believe that led lights are polarity sensitive (if you didn’t know) so check before you finalize your connections.

[Tom Cherry]

5 hours ago, Ray Davis said:

You need more wire,  1 inch is too risky so I would probably first extend them about a foot by cutting and soldering one at a time then use heat shrink tubing.

Again, don't let go,   you could tie a string on um.   Led lights are polarity sensitive so turn each one on before making permanent connections.

The NEC and RVIA correct method to connect wiring is a mechanical joint….if there is sufficient wire for a crimping tool.  Depending on the environment, supplemental heat shrink tubing could be used.  If you want a pure 100% connection, then find the correct size silicon heat shrink tubing…..that is used for submersible pumps….and the 12 year old pump we just pulled never had an issue and the wiring was not corroded.

YES….first test for polarity…..then permanently fasten….LED bulbs be finicky….

[Guest Ray Davis]

5 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

The NEC and RVIA correct method to connect wiring is a mechanical joint….if there is sufficient wire for a crimping tool.  Depending on the environment, supplemental heat shrink tubing could be used.  If you want a pure 100% connection, then find the correct size silicon heat shrink tubing…..that is used for submersible pumps….and the 12 year old pump we just pulled never had an issue and the wiring was not corroded.

YES….first test for polarity…..then permanently fasten….LED bulbs be finicky….

No doubt those are the preferred methods nowadays.    However, considering the failure rate of butt connections pulling apart when not crimped quite securely enough seemed to call for a little something extra.

[Tom Cherry]

39 minutes ago, Ray Davis said:

No doubt those are the preferred methods nowadays.    However, considering the failure rate of butt connections pulling apart when not crimped quite securely enough seemed to call for a little something extra.

PER NEC, soldering AFTER the use of a “mechanical” joint is “OK”…..  It can’t hurt, but should be the secondary method of connection, not the primary.

[Jim Pratten]

For your reading pleasure, the standard we used in my previous life. Splices start on page 67.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Jim Pratten

[Guest Ray Davis]

25 minutes ago, Jim Pratten said:

For your reading pleasure, the standard we used in my previous life. Splices start on page 67.

Jim thanks,  that's a great link.  Many examples of solder connections, the Western Union splice below is more or less what I had in mind.  The joint is said to be stronger than the wires themselves.

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

44 minutes ago, Jim Pratten said:

For your reading pleasure, the standard we used in my previous life. Splices start on page 67.

Yes, as an old time “wiring person”, starting 65 years ago and working for a specialty electronics firm during college….and then being responsible for maintenance for many years….as well as home repairs…..that, as Ray said, was a great read.

however, the first sentence….splices may be mechanically joined or soldered….seems to sum it up. There is no stated or preferred method, as there is in the NEC….. If you are working on a NASA job…great.  BUT….if you are required to comply with NEC…..

https://www.polytechforum.com/electrical/nec-on-soldering-wiring-39588-.htm

I was trained, and had to break bad habits, by a couple of Navy techs.  They were the best and brightest electronics techs.  They were at NCSU in electrical engineering, as i was.  Uncle Sam was sending them.  I worked on a bench, side by side with them, and they showed me the “weight reduction” techniques they were taught by a NASA ENGINEER.  NASA ran soldering schools for contractors….as that was part of a weight reduction as well as joint integrity.  I forget the numbers, but NASA did a survey and the “more is better” rule was in place on boards and connectors.  NASA would only accept quotes from contractors with all assembly techs “certified” and there was a spot check (MIL STD 105) for visual compliance.

SO….if one is trained, perhaps as you are, then that will be a quality splice.  But if one heats up a Weller gun (i worked for the company that owned Weller & spent a lot of time with their Engineers) and just does a hit or miss….then a layman would do a much better job with a ratcheting crimper.  I am a big proponent of them.  We used to have the MAC expensive one private labeled with custom Weller “blue” handles…

A NASA quality joint is great….but not NEC approved…

[Guest Ray Davis]

That's some pretty good reading too.   https://www.polytechforum.com/electrical/nec-on-soldering-wiring-39588-.htm   

The first sentence says NM solid copper wire and I'm pretty sure Monaco used stranded wire,  and the article didn't rule out soldering nor did it require soldering.            it seems like we're splitting hairs,  so with that, I'm done.

[Jim Pratten]

More reading entertainment, ANSI/RVIA LV.  See Chapter 6.

[Tom Cherry]

6.1.4 in an interesting statement.  Good twisted splice or mechanical (presumably crimped) fastened…..PRIOR to soldering.  A little bland where as NEC and UL are more specific.  Up to the individual, as i said, skill set.

One sage observer mentioned that we should be more concerned with the 15 A circuit Wire Nuts Monaco used in J boxes as well as the HVAC VAC…

Whatever one is the most comfortable with and has the skill set

 

[1nolaguy]

Thanks for all the comments. This has gone a bit off topic but today I changed the the back 5 running lights and this is what I learned:

1) whenever you are working on electric lines inside the walls of your RV, clamp them off with a hemistat or some other device to keep wires from slipping back into the walls. If you don't it may well be a long day.

2) RV manufacturers drilled all different size holes in the outside, regardless of the size of the wires. For my coach running lights Monaco decided to use 1-1/2" holes. Finding replacement grommets to fit this locally proved to be impossible, however a worker at HD telling me a detailed story I was not interested in mentioned something that ended up working great. For each fixture I cut a 2x3-1/2" patch of clear Flexseal tape with a slit half way from bottom. Slid over the wires after making all connections (mechanical). Adheard tape, centering wires with slight overlap of tape to seal slit. Apply a dab of silicone calk and secure fixtures with screws. Apply a small bead of calk on top and sides between fixture and coach. Flex seal tape works extremely well in this application. After all my screw ups it took about 20 min each. Removing the old fixtures and silicone was the hardest part.

 

[1nolaguy]

A few additional tricks I learned I want to share as it may be helpful to others faced with this task.

1) It is much easier to add butt crimps when on the ground rather than on a ladder. After changing a few 10ft in the air I decided to put all the crimps on the fixtures first then up the ladder to install. Made the job quicker and physically easier.

2) the smallest crimps I have are red for 18 to 14 ga wire. The LED running lights come with 20 ga wire already attached. Some even come with 22 or 24 ga wire, very thin and hard to get a good crimp on red butt splices. To solve this I stripped the 20 ga wire about 3/4" ,twisted the strands and then folded the wire on itself. This gave a 3/8" end that fit well in the red tube making for a strong crimps. Note if I used a smaller size butt connector it would not accept the thicker wires coming from the coach. While this hack may not be "Hoyle", these led running lights pull so little current that it should not be a issue.

3) I observed that the front cap lights were more heavily silicone than the rear. Whoever installed them completely sealed the fixture and the lens all the way around as well as the bulb and socket. Even with this there was leakage. As a result every lens on the front contained water, as much as 1/2". The new fixture are designed with weep holes to drain out water. Be careful not to seal these closed with calk or the new fixtures will also hold water.

I thought this would be a guick and easy project. It took 2 full days. YMMV.

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by 1nolaguy
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