Vitron Mutliplus II conversion from Magnum. Power issues…System not drawing amp but Voltage OK. Need assistance.

[Tom Cherry]

4 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

Yeah there is always voltage shown on the watchdog, no matter what’s going on. The coach goes dead, it shows voltage but no amps, then comes “back to life” and the amps are back up showing. 
 

I’ll tear into the ATS and see what’s loose or nasty. 
 

I appreciate your insight and help 

JD, just for the record.  Did you loose ALL INTERNAL 120 VAC such as the HVAC or was it JUST the outlets, which is a function of the Vitron (inverter).  Just curious if you recall....

Still FOLLOW the advice...

[JDCrow]

6 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

JD, just for the record.  Did you loose ALL INTERNAL 120 VAC such as the HVAC or was it JUST the outlets, which is a function of the Vitron (inverter).  Just curious if you recall....

Still FOLLOW the advice...

I’ll have to go back, that’s a good question. My Victron isn’t just the outlets, it runs everything now. I didn’t have anything on other than the tv,microwave, fridge, washer which like you mentioned are on plugs. 

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, JDCrow said:

I’ll have to go back, that’s a good question. My Victron isn’t just the outlets, it runs everything now. I didn’t have anything on other than the tv,microwave, fridge, washer which like you mentioned are on plugs. 

Look at your panel.  Every breaker there, save the Inverter, unless someone did an unbelievable job of putting in a device….MUST run off shore.  You W/D doesn’t run off the inverter.  Your AC compressors don’t run off shore…and by SHORE…I mean Genny as well.  The water heater doesn’t.  The Gas refrigerator heating elements do NOT run off the inverter…The inverter only powers things plugged in to the interior outlets.  NOW bare in mind, some MH have an outlet innthe bedroom from thr main panel..land not on the inverter.

IF you were able to run any of the NON inverter items, you should have shown a LOAD…as in a current draw.  The 30 second cycling is s telltale sign that something is amiss in the inverter.  Look for vurned or charred terminals.  But, if the small PCB that runs or controls the teo (probably) switching relays or contactors  (one for L1 & L2) and one for Neutral….then the inverter is bad.  Maybe like the ESCO’s you can order a new board.  But, you need tech support to help you diagnose,..

If yiur batteries were OK then the Victron should have kicked in and “the inverted circuits worked”.  I can’t offer much more…except reread snd sort through the circuit.  Suspect the inverter, but make sure you understand…. It woking NOW is spooky….but it ain’t reliable.  You still need to do,thr PM on the main panel…regardless 

[JDCrow]

29 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Look at your panel.  Every breaker there, save the Inverter, unless someone did an unbelievable job of putting in a device….MUST run off shore.  You W/D doesn’t run off the inverter.  Your AC compressors don’t run off shore…and by SHORE…I mean Genny as well.  The water heater doesn’t.  The Gas refrigerator heating elements do NOT run off the inverter…The inverter only powers things plugged in to the interior outlets.  NOW bare in mind, some MH have an outlet innthe bedroom from thr main panel..land not on the inverter.

IF you were able to run any of the NON inverter items, you should have shown a LOAD…as in a current draw.  The 30 second cycling is s telltale sign that something is amiss in the inverter.  Look for vurned or charred terminals.  But, if the small PCB that runs or controls the teo (probably) switching relays or contactors  (one for L1 & L2) and one for Neutral….then the inverter is bad.  Maybe like the ESCO’s you can order a new board.  But, you need tech support to help you diagnose,..

If yiur batteries were OK then the Victron should have kicked in and “the inverted circuits worked”.  I can’t offer much more…except reread snd sort through the circuit.  Suspect the inverter, but make sure you understand…. It woking NOW is spooky….but it ain’t reliable.  You still need to do,thr PM on the main panel…regardless 

I’ll read this latter, when I can slow down, but I re-wired it all. I need to go back and follow my work. 
 

I pulled out the 2 runs from the old inverter (1 circuit of plugs the other microwave). Everything runs from the transfer switch to the Multiplus 2 and out to breaker box. So both legs go straight to the 50 amp main and out to everything. Got rid of block heater and that run goes to microwave now.
 

I’ll be able to Sit down and go through pics. I posted all my work on here under the upgrades topics. I’ll look through that as well 

[Tom Cherry]

40 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

I’ll read this latter, when I can slow down, but I re-wired it all. I need to go back and follow my work. 
 

I pulled out the 2 runs from the old inverter (1 circuit of plugs the other microwave). Everything runs from the transfer switch to the Multiplus 2 and out to breaker box. So both legs go straight to the 50 amp main and out to everything. Got rid of block heater and that run goes to microwave now.
 

I’ll be able to Sit down and go through pics. I posted all my work on here under the upgrades topics. I’ll look through that as well 

JD…. I am not, but others mIght be, anywhere close to providing additional assistance on your issues.  I edited, again, the title and your first post to clarify what you just posted.  After googling and such, your situation may be that the CG voltage, depending on your locale, may have had “low voltage”. There are several posts on various forums about the “unexpected” issues when the shore power drops into a “danger zone”.  To expand, as you stated, your “electrical” experience is limited.  

When the CG’s have a lot of 30 amp rigs, and the HEAT IS ON, then the distribution systems, especially in older parks, comes up deficient.  I have exoerienced that several times all over the USA.  My Progressive HW50C monitors that and trying to explain to a CG manager or owner that the power is inadequate and dangerously LOW is next to impossible. The retort is “you gotta problem in YOUR rig….nobody else is complaining”.  In other words, the CG power will be below 105 or worse VAC and that will damage your electronics and the HW50C, shuts off and displays a LOW VOLTAGE code.  The solution is usually to “run the genny” or ask to be moved.  One really nice KOA said, OH….some folks do have issues, so we move them to the “new section” which was totally rewired when we expanded.  That issue COULD be happening.  Maybe the Multiplus II is in an “internal state of shock”.  That came from several different comments as the “bucking” or voltage boosting is, based on load, past the capacity of the unit..or…software upgrades needed or “not set up properly” and supposedly Vitron has no “technical support” as the installing dealers or distributors are supposed to provide such..many mention that if purchased from Amazon. 

FWIW, voltage is a function of current draw.  When i check my HW50C’s remote, especially when the CG is crowded and a LOT of 30 amp TT, I look at the non load or maybe the “inverter” load and the L1 & L2 voltages and HOPE I see 122 or so.  I know, from experience, that once I turn on the AC’s and Aquahot, that the increased load draw is going to drop the voltage.  So PURE speculation from here on out.  The “cycling or stabilization” of your MultiPlus so that it performs like normal may have been overtaxed and it “couldn’t or didn’t know” what to do.  Now that you have explained the modifications to your MH and the installation of a very sophisticated alternative which does or is supposed to do way more than the OEM, I  don’t have an answer….

Only unexplained shutdowns or cycling issues do result from incoming power that can’t be “improved snd conditioned” and are beyond the ability to work properly.  All that is just my trying to rationalize and also understand.  Why it appears to be working now may not be a wiring or component failure, but  just a function of not being overtaxed.

Based on the condition of the pedestal, your park may not have the best or most well diversified power distribution network.  Many parks were never designed for all the high current demand, yes, still supposedly within the capacity of a 50 Amp Two Line main breaker…but when a bunch congregate snd folks are running 3 ac’s and their AH and even “all electric” induction cook tops…it pushes the limits or safety factor of the grid…OR, in many cases, the local utility can’t provide and there are rolling BROWNOUTS  that drop the incoming low…and then the CG’s distribution loads are really BAD…as in barely 100 VAC.

Thats it.  Will drop back and read what transpires from here…but, I am not learned or qualified enough to give practical advice.  Good Luck.  Please keep us updated as you sort  this out.

[JDCrow]

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

JD…. I am not, but others mIght be, anywhere close to providing additional assistance on your issues.  I edited, again, the title and your first post to clarify what you just posted.  After googling and such, your situation may be that the CG voltage, depending on your locale, may have had “low voltage”. There are several posts on various forums about the “unexpected” issues when the shore power drops into a “danger zone”.  To expand, as you stated, your “electrical” experience is limited.  

When the CG’s have a lot of 30 amp rigs, and the HEAT IS ON, then the distribution systems, especially in older parks, comes up deficient.  I have exoerienced that several times all over the USA.  My Progressive HW50C monitors that and trying to explain to a CG manager or owner that the power is inadequate and dangerously LOW is next to impossible. The retort is “you gotta problem in YOUR rig….nobody else is complaining”.  In other words, the CG power will be below 105 or worse VAC and that will damage your electronics and the HW50C, shuts off and displays a LOW VOLTAGE code.  The solution is usually to “run the genny” or ask to be moved.  One really nice KOA said, OH….some folks do have issues, so we move them to the “new section” which was totally rewired when we expanded.  That issue COULD be happening.  Maybe the Multiplus II is in an “internal state of shock”.  That came from several different comments as the “bucking” or voltage boosting is, based on load, past the capacity of the unit..or…software upgrades needed or “not set up properly” and supposedly Vitron has no “technical support” as the installing dealers or distributors are supposed to provide such..many mention that if purchased from Amazon. 

FWIW, voltage is a function of current draw.  When i check my HW50C’s remote, especially when the CG is crowded and a LOT of 30 amp TT, I look at the non load or maybe the “inverter” load and the L1 & L2 voltages and HOPE I see 122 or so.  I know, from experience, that once I turn on the AC’s and Aquahot, that the increased load draw is going to drop the voltage.  So PURE speculation from here on out.  The “cycling or stabilization” of your MultiPlus so that it performs like normal may have been overtaxed and it “couldn’t or didn’t know” what to do.  Now that you have explained the modifications to your MH and the installation of a very sophisticated alternative which does or is supposed to do way more than the OEM, I  don’t have an answer….

Only unexplained shutdowns or cycling issues do result from incoming power that can’t be “improved snd conditioned” and are beyond the ability to work properly.  All that is just my trying to rationalize and also understand.  Why it appears to be working now may not be a wiring or component failure, but  just a function of not being overtaxed.

Based on the condition of the pedestal, your park may not have the best or most well diversified power distribution network.  Many parks were never designed for all the high current demand, yes, still supposedly within the capacity of a 50 Amp Two Line main breaker…but when a bunch congregate snd folks are running 3 ac’s and their AH and even “all electric” induction cook tops…it pushes the limits or safety factor of the grid…OR, in many cases, the local utility can’t provide and there are rolling BROWNOUTS  that drop the incoming low…and then the CG’s distribution loads are really BAD…as in barely 100 VAC.

Thats it.  Will drop back and read what transpires from here…but, I am not learned or qualified enough to give practical advice.  Good Luck.  Please keep us updated as you sort  this out.

Thanks very much. This thought is where I started. The Row I’m in is full. The guy next to me now when I pulled in is on fire with tech! A sprinter pulling a travel trailer both Victroned up to the hilt. He’s got Starlink, couple pep waves and drawing lots of current for a 30 amp service, but who knows. This row shared the same distribution panel. The park is old, the power poles for when it was overhead to each site are still there
 

The Victron is picky. I mentioned before it freaks when I run the genny going down the road with the DC/DC charger in. I get the power ripple/wiggle whatever they call it. But again zero issues when we left. 

[JohnC3]

JDCROW,

FYI, I have your same config (Mostly). 

Power Watchdog (Pedestal Type) -> ATS (LPTBRD50)-> Victron 2x120 -> Load Panel.

I used the original 30A circuit (Downgraded to 20A) for the Micro and pulled another 20A run for the outlets branch).

There is something to do to get full power from the Generator. (Generator outputs on ~33A on L1 and 33A on L2 (if you have the 8K generator. The Victron ignores L2 if its in phase with L1.

Secondly I have made a modification to allow me to run loads > 30A when on a 30A plug using the power Assist of the Victron and the EMS will allow > 30A on the EMS panel on a 30A shore power without shutting down circuits. Useful to run 2 ACs on 30A, etc.

Back to Your current problem...

I have had one leg of a contactor in my LPTBRT50(?? from memory think that's close) go out. In our config, if L1 is passed, Victron thinks you are on 30A and bonds L1 and L2 and only draws power from L1. Meaning you will never see power flowing on L2 on your Powerdog in this situation. If you have a screwed up ATS control board that for some reason wants to switch to genny when you still have shore power, You would see Volts on L1 and L2, but no AMPS. Think of it like this. You are in a new house. You have the electricity on but nothings plugged in. You check the voltage at a receptacle its 120V. You plug in a killowatt meter (like the meter on your powerdog). Then plug in a lamp. If you measured power at the killowatt plug, it would show 120V, but would measure no AMP until you plugged a lamp or something else in that USED power. You could plug in a lamp, but until you turned it on completing the circuit, No AMPS are flowing. The only things that would impact both lines of your power is the ATS, The Victron inverter or the Main breaker in your circuit panel. The Main breaker won't  recover from a trip. The ATS Might. The Victron might.

BTW I even considered the Intellitec EMS, But that would only impact the main circuits (4-6 branch circuits) and you said you lost all power.

So, Sorry, but do you have the Cebro GX and cool Display, and what happens to this when you lose power. This might be important.

If I lose all Pedestal power, The Victron takes over the load. Now if I am running too much for it to handle by itself when shore power fails, the inverter shuts down and beeps at me. 

What type of batteries and how many amp Hours do you have. Do you know your BMS specs for Max output/ battery?

It bothers me that you could lose all power with this setup.

I currently have 840AH (3x280AH) It should support 360A at ~12v but I can overload my batteries if victron tried to do it all itself. Check your error logs also if you have the smartshunt, Check the history, look at battery voltage around the time you were losing power.

Also, Inspect your batteries. I have heard of odd behavior from battleborn batteries that are loosing their internal connection to the positive power post. Looks like the plastic around the post is melting... Check for something like that.

Sorry for the long post, but wanted to update you now that I know your full setup. It might still be your ATS, but even if it failed, you would have power from your inverter. The more I think about it, I would keep an eye on the victron display during one of these outages. 

Look for 30A on the EMS (Maybe the victron thinks you lost power (or you did) and is inverting. THIS WOULD NOT explain the watchdog showing volts on L1 and L2 though. But if the ATS screwed up and disconnected shore power and Victron picked up the slack and overloaded your batteries(so the BMSs cut power output) that might cause a full power failure. Seems to be getting rather complicated though.

 

More stuff to check, but I am hoping it might help.

John

 

 

 

 

 

  

[JDCrow]

Good morn (almost 3 am, can’t sleep, wife threw on my goto sleep movies, Oceans 12)

Anyway, sorry this thread is evolving. What I thought was simple might be more complicated. 
 

So on my system: 

Got rid of old mod sign wave Xantrax and replaced with A Multiple plus 2 from Victron. I rewired the coach to all run through the Victron. 

I wanted lithium was the reason for this upgrade, and that we have our phones, computers, and other stuff that likes clean power. I had to add  Victron DC/DC charger for the batteries preferred charging. I have only a shunt and a Bluetooth dongle to read the Multiplus. A Cerbo sits in the box till I find some time to get data cable back down out of inside of Coach to the electrical bay.( I have 40x40 shop in trying for permits, yeah! A place to work on my coach)

I currently have a single Chins 200ah smart battery (smart is just heated) I went with it because it was the only heated battery at the time. This all went into service in Aug 2021 and has been trouble free up to this, well minus the wiggle when DC/DC charger is on and genny is on. So both trying to charge the battery and the Multiplus doesn’t like it. 

One thing I just caught that John said was derating the breakers. If my memory is right, the main reason I ditched the block heater, other than I can just plug Coach into an outlet. Was wires were short in length so one set of receptacles is on the old microwave circuit. And thus microwave is now on the old block heater. I believe that the wires coming out of old inverter matched the breakers in the panel on amps, but will double check.

I had the Multiplus in “normal” mode on the actual unit, and charger only on the app. After the first shut down, I went out and put her unit in charger only physically. The unit had zero faults on it or in the app.

The Victron showed no power coming in when the shutdown was occurring, while like mentioned the watchdog showed only volts. 
 

I tried the 30 amp plug in the ped, turned the Victron down to 30 o the input, but same thing happened. 
 

Talked to the Host again. As I mentioned when we first showed up, the watchdog wouldn’t let us use the 50 amp receptacle, just the 30. He replaced the breaker. Our last conversation was not productive as I mentioned the new issue, and that my coach was freaking on both receptacles. He mentioned he replaced the 30 receptacle and the ped is fine and telling me we need to get a longer cord and run it to a different site to check it out. I said well it’s not “fine” because the previous guy who wintered in the site caught the ped on fire. He claimed it was just his power cord from his Trailer to the ped had melted because the tenant had his wiring wrong. I knew enough after reading that an open circuit had occurred and that’s when we decided to leave our coach unplugged until resolved. 
 

I texted him yesterday to let him know it might be on my coach, and not to get too heated up on the ped. 
 

Plan currently (pun intended) is to go back up late Sunday and tighten everything up in the Watchdog and ATS, probably take the both out and open them up and look inside for damage that has been talked about on this thread. 
 

Sorry I haven’t had time to read through everyone’s posts, I really appreciate everyone’s help. 
 

Anyway, back to trying to sleep and off to work 

[waterskier_1]

Now that you have better defined your configuration, I suggest you connect the Cebro up, even if it means letting it lay on the bay floor.  It might give you insight if the Victron system is shutting things down.  For those trying to help, JD has rewired his coach so that the transfer switch likely feeds his inverter.  Many that do this do not go to the main power panel & it's 50 input breaker, but some do.  In either case, all power goes through the inverter then (usually) back to the power panel and use the breakers in there to feed the coach, with the exception of the microwave.  He claims he does not have input to his inverter, while at the same time his watchdog shows he has power to the coach.  The only device between the two, as far as I can tell, is the transfer switch & possibly a 50Amp input power circuit breaker. But it is going to take someone with a volt meter to test those devices, and the wiring. 

  - Rick N

[JDCrow]

42 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Now that you have better defined your configuration, I suggest you connect the Cebro up, even if it means letting it lay on the bay floor.  It might give you insight if the Victron system is shutting things down.  For those trying to help, JD has rewired his coach so that the transfer switch likely feeds his inverter.  Many that do this do not go to the main power panel & it's 50 input breaker, but some do.  In either case, all power goes through the inverter then (usually) back to the power panel and use the breakers in there to feed the coach, with the exception of the microwave.  He claims he does not have input to his inverter, while at the same time his watchdog shows he has power to the coach.  The only device between the two, as far as I can tell, is the transfer switch & possibly a 50Amp input power circuit breaker. But it is going to take someone with a volt meter to test those devices, and the wiring. 

  - Rick N

Thanks that’s it in a nutshell except the microwave isn’t separate, it’s in the breaker panel. 
 

Yes the power comes out the ATS and into the Multiplus and then straight to the breaker panel, then out to all the circuits in the Coach. My main rational was the clean power. You also get the luxury of plugging into just about any size outlet and the Multiplus will take battery storage and combine with the outlet to meet the load demand. No tripping 15 amp breakers in an friends house to run the microwave and watch tv 

Anyway, not sure it the way anyone else has done it, but it the way I went about doing it. It wasn’t hard. The hardest part was fishing wires up and down. The microwave had its own circut out the Xantrax, so I had to fish a new wire up and use a junction box to mate the two together in the back bay. I can take more pics if anyone is interested in how I set it up. 
 

thanks again and I all 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, waterskier_1 said:

Now that you have better defined your configuration, I suggest you connect the Cebro up, even if it means letting it lay on the bay floor.  It might give you insight if the Victron system is shutting things down.  For those trying to help, JD has rewired his coach so that the transfer switch likely feeds his inverter.  Many that do this do not go to the main power panel & it's 50 input breaker, but some do.  In either case, all power goes through the inverter then (usually) back to the power panel and use the breakers in there to feed the coach, with the exception of the microwave.  He claims he does not have input to his inverter, while at the same time his watchdog shows he has power to the coach.  The only device between the two, as far as I can tell, is the transfer switch & possibly a 50Amp input power circuit breaker. But it is going to take someone with a volt meter to test those devices, and the wiring. 

  - Rick N

Thanks,

the “cycling” on and off may, if I guess, something, as many reported on other boards, an “internal hemorrhage” within the Multiplus II as it can’t lock on to a stable or maybe too low voltage and cannot then work or compensate. If the incoming is not correctable. The Vitron was originally designed for marine and folks that run more shore have more issues.  Quite a bot of info and problems and number of different threads on several other boards. Low or unstable power beyond the capabilities or perhaps the setup is an issue

I guess we see

[waterskier_1]

14 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Thanks,

the “cycling” on and off may, if I guess, something, as many reported on other boards, an “internal hemorrhage” within the Multiplus II as it can’t lock on to a stable or maybe too low voltage and cannot then work or compensate. If the incoming is not correctable. The Vitron was originally designed for marine and folks that run more shore have more issues.  Quite a bot of info and problems and number of different threads on several other boards. Low or unstable power beyond the capabilities or perhaps the setup is an issue

I guess we see

Tom, could you provide me with links to the other boards regarding "international hemorrhage" please?  As a Victron (not Vitron) Professional, I have never heard of this condition.  It is true that there are a lot of Victron installations aboard vessels, mostly because it is one of a few manufacturers that provides a totally integrated system including solar controllers, inverter/chargers, shunts, temperature sensors and controllers that all talk to each other.  The system is quite scaleable, including providing energy needs for whole communities in places where no infrastructure exists.  It has provisions to be grid tied, allowing the user to "sell energy" back to the utility company.  

JD, many similar installations use one of the 30-Amp cables that used to power the inverter from the main power panel for the microwave circuit, with appropriate sized circuit breakers.  I strongly recommend some sort of master cutoff before the inverter, similar in function to the 50Amp main breaker so you can kill all power if necessary.  It is also a requirement, not that I am any sort of requirement police, but must do have a valid reason for existing. 

  -Rick N 

Gillette,  WY foot the Monaco International Pre-Rally 

[JDCrow]

15 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Tom, could you provide me with links to the other boards regarding "international hemorrhage" please?  As a Victron (not Vitron) Professional, I have never heard of this condition.  It is true that there are a lot of Victron installations aboard vessels, mostly because it is one of a few manufacturers that provides a totally integrated system including solar controllers, inverter/chargers, shunts, temperature sensors and controllers that all talk to each other.  The system is quite scaleable, including providing energy needs for whole communities in places where no infrastructure exists.  It has provisions to be grid tied, allowing the user to "sell energy" back to the utility company.  

JD, many similar installations use one of the 30-Amp cables that used to power the inverter from the main power panel for the microwave circuit, with appropriate sized circuit breakers.  I strongly recommend some sort of master cutoff before the inverter, similar in function to the 50Amp main breaker so you can kill all power if necessary.  It is also a requirement, not that I am any sort of requirement police, but must do have a valid reason for existing. 

  -Rick N 

Gillette,  WY foot the Monaco International Pre-Rally 

Thanks for your input. 
So a manual selectable switch? I have one from battery to the Multiplus but not from the transfer switch To the Multiplus.

I figured you’d just unplug/flip off breaker to the Coach or turn off the gen.  Much easier than unlocking a bay door I reckoned, but if it’s needed can do 

[waterskier_1]

1 hour ago, JDCrow said:

Thanks for your input. 
So a manual selectable switch? I have one from battery to the Multiplus but not from the transfer switch To the Multiplus.

I figured you’d just unplug/flip off breaker to the Coach or turn off the gen.  Much easier than unlocking a bay door I reckoned, but if it’s needed can do 

Yes, it would perform the exact same function as the main 50Amp breaker in your main power panel used to do.  But more than just a switch,  it should protect also, so a breaker.  I suspect the thinking behind it is someone could come along and re-energize the Pedestal breaker while someone was working on the coach.  And if the generator breaker wasn't flipped, an auto generator start could start the generator.  It will also protect the wiring from the Pedestal to the inverter from overheating and catching the coach on fire if something shorted out in the inverter itself.  I recommend either installing a 50-Amp breaker in its own mini box at the inverter.  I'm assuming the inverter output is now going to the main power panel 50-Amp breaker. 

  - Rick N 

[TomV48]

On 8/14/2023 at 11:44 AM, TomV48 said:

 

Ok, just for confirmation.   Your HUGHES IS "BEFORE" the transfer switch, so it is not reading generator, or transfer switch output.   Right??

Have you encountered the problem when on generator??

So, JDCrow,  I reread your post and come back to this.  Does the house work fine on generator or no.   I see what looks like open screws where the connections go from the watchdog to the transfer switch so you have that point at which to check AC volts.   If you're on a 50 amp pedestal you should have 240 volts between leg one and leg two and you should have 120 volts between leg 1 and common leg two and common also; and probably even leg one and leg two to ground will show you 120.   

If everything is good at that point and the generator is working on all systems then the problem is in the transfer switch on the shore power contact side.  If you're not getting good service with the generator either then it may still be the transfer switch but on both the shore power / watchdog side and the generator side.

That comes down to what I said in an earlier post about inspecting the contactors inside the transfer switch.  I didn't emphasize it before let me emphasize it now be d*** careful in there.  Sometimes you have to use a voltmeter probe with things hot and that can get dangerous.

Before you mess around with the inverter conversion and all those connectors other than just to make sure everything is connected tightly, not showing any burning, color distortion from heat, or evidence of arcing,  be sure you're getting power through the transfer switch the way it should be.

Edited August 17, 2023 by TomV48

[JDCrow]

59 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Yes, it would perform the exact same function as the main 50Amp breaker in your main power panel used to do.  But more than just a switch,  it should protect also, so a breaker.  I suspect the thinking behind it is someone could come along and re-energize the Pedestal breaker while someone was working on the coach.  And if the generator breaker wasn't flipped, an auto generator start could start the generator.  It will also protect the wiring from the Pedestal to the inverter from overheating and catching the coach on fire if something shorted out in the inverter itself.  I recommend either installing a 50-Amp breaker in its own mini box at the inverter.  I'm assuming the inverter output is now going to the main power panel 50-Amp breaker. 

  - Rick N 

Yes it is going to main 50 amp in panel. I’ll pick one up. What you discussed makes sense. Thanks 

14 minutes ago, TomV48 said:

So, JDCrow,  I reread your post and come back to this.  Does the house work fine on generator or no.   I see what looks like open screws where the connections go from the watchdog to the transfer switch so you have that point at which to check AC volts.   If you're on a 50 amp pedestal you should have 240 volts between leg one and leg two and you should have 120 volts between leg 1 and common like two uncommon and probably even laid one and leg two to ground.   

If everything is good at that point and the generator is working all systems and the problem is in the transfer switch on the shore power contact side.  If you're not getting good service with the generator either then it may still be the transfer switch but on both the shore power / watchdog side and the generator side.

That comes down to what I said in an earlier post about inspecting the contactors inside the transfer switch.  I didn't emphasize it before let me emphasize it now be d*** careful in there.  Sometimes you have to use a voltmeter probe with things hot and that can get dangerous.

Before you mess around with the inverter conversion and all those connectors other than just to make sure everything is connected tightly, not showing any burning, color distortion from heat, or evidence of arcing,  be sure you're getting power through the transfer switch the way it should be.

Thanks that is absolutely where I stand right now. Headed back up Sunday with my tools to get in and see what the ATS looks like and see if anything is loose. 
 

The kicker to me is that it started with I work fine for 5-6 hours till we left. My step father was a lineman for many years and he said nothing worse than a self healing circuit. 

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, waterskier_1 said:

Tom, could you provide me with links to the other boards regarding "international hemorrhage" please?  As a Victron (not Vitron) Professional, I have never heard of this condition.  It is true that there are a lot of Victron installations aboard vessels, mostly because it is one of a few manufacturers that provides a totally integrated system including solar controllers, inverter/chargers, shunts, temperature sensors and controllers that all talk to each other.  The system is quite scaleable, including providing energy needs for whole communities in places where no infrastructure exists.  It has provisions to be grid tied, allowing the user to "sell energy" back to the utility company.  

JD, many similar installations use one of the 30-Amp cables that used to power the inverter from the main power panel for the microwave circuit, with appropriate sized circuit breakers.  I strongly recommend some sort of master cutoff before the inverter, similar in function to the 50Amp main breaker so you can kill all power if necessary.  It is also a requirement, not that I am any sort of requirement police, but must do have a valid reason for existing. 

  -Rick N 

Gillette,  WY foot the Monaco International Pre-Rally 

Rick,

I googled “Vitron Multiplus Problems” last night.  Maybe an hour or so of reading the threads and then visiting the Vitron site to understand fully, as best i could, what it does and how it works. Had a bunch on IRV2.  Some on some other MH sites as well as marine.  I probably went through maybe 30 pages on 8 or 9 threads.  They comments were….  Need Software Update; not set up right; not wired or installed properly…etc.  but many said that intermittent problems were the result of low voltage and the unit not being able to “stabilize” and then shutting down after a minute of so.  I saw that on three separate boards.

The system is well respected, but getting good and specific information as Vitron does not offer direct consumer tech support was a common issue.  The other comment was that the good shops or distributors or tech info was more focused on marine as that seemed to be the largest market.  RV owners had issues like @JDCrow more than marine.  I also talked to some folks here that have worked on systems and helped troubleshoot….in the field.  

Good as I can get.  Now that members know it is an aftermarket upgrade and a Vitron, by editing the title, we felt that it would get more specific advice or solutions rather than the barrage, me included, thinking it was an OEM issue with a suppressor and a conventional inverter.

As folks make or install mods, then the bulk of the members with a great deal of OEM trouble shooting skills will understand that what we are dealing with.  We Moderators are faced with more electronic and electrical issues from what a PO did or what someone did when uograding….so we are more cognizant that many memRe contributors, but not experrs or even vaguely aware.  We will probably be asking for more info or pictures and narratives to get the right, focused help.  I plead quilty….and that is why i got curious….and thus….here we are. 

Please feel free to assist online or offline  as I have reached out both to @JohnC3 and @JDCrow so they can talk and see what is needed…or perhaps, reach a conclusion that the incoming power quality was a factor or not.

Thanks for understanding and helping spread a little knowledge.

[TomV48]

1 hour ago, JDCrow said:

Yes it is going to main 50 amp in panel. I’ll pick one up. What you discussed makes sense. Thanks 

Thanks that is absolutely where I stand right now. Headed back up Sunday with my tools to get in and see what the ATS looks like and see if anything is loose. 
 

The kicker to me is that it started with I work fine for 5-6 hours till we left. My step father was a lineman for many years and he said nothing worse than a self healing circuit. 

Well maybe it's as simple as you've gone on and off power and generator with high loads running and as a result have made the contacts in the transfer switch a little messy.   I have never forgotten my dad with just an Emory board.

Nothing's ever that easy but maybe it is this time and you can repair it.

Good luck.  

Tom

 

[JDCrow]

So an update:

After a great conversation with another member, we came to the conclusion that others did, the ATS. I put in and order for a new LYTE ATS and it’s sitting here in the box. 
 

In the mean time, been with the coach 2 times, and zero issues each time, until today. Arrived and Coach was dead. So instead of just going to breaker at PED and cycling it, I flipped on the watchdog app. This time there was voltage and amps on the readout. I believe this further solidifies that the ATS is kicking out and not making a solid connection. 
 

Thanks again for everyone’s help

[waterskier_1]

JD, I'm a bit skeptical of the transfer switch, since the de-energized state I'd typically Shore Power.  When the generator starts and is up to speed, it sends a voltage to energize the ATS, dropping Shore Power and passing generator power to the coach.  Unless you had an occurrence of Auto Generator Starts, the ATS should always be in the Shore Power position.  The contacts might be dirty, but I don't see this as an energization of the ATS problem. 

  - Rick N 

[JDCrow]

28 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

JD, I'm a bit skeptical of the transfer switch, since the de-energized state I'd typically Shore Power.  When the generator starts and is up to speed, it sends a voltage to energize the ATS, dropping Shore Power and passing generator power to the coach.  Unless you had an occurrence of Auto Generator Starts, the ATS should always be in the Shore Power position.  The contacts might be dirty, but I don't see this as an energization of the ATS problem. 

  - Rick N 

Thanks. I thought it was the other way around, when shore power isn’t available, the switch always defaults to Gen. So I was thinking that the switch “unconnected” for whatever reason, went back to generator input, and didn’t recognize that shore power was available again so never clicked back onto the shore power circuit. 
 

 

[Tom Cherry]

12 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

Thanks. I thought it was the other way around, when shore power isn’t available, the switch always defaults to Gen. So I was thinking that the switch “unconnected” for whatever reason, went back to generator input, and didn’t recognize that shore power was available again so never clicked back onto the shore power circuit. 
 

 

One minor comment.  Typically, when the ATS reads or senses 120 VAC, then the PCB or control board takes over.  Most (so don’t pin me down on a particular brand) have a delay…usually 120 seconds before closing the contactor(s) and allowing the Genny voltage to the main panel.  That protects the HVAC units as well as allows the genny to get stabilized….otherwise (and trust me…I figured out HOW to defeat that through stupidity) there will usually be a shutdown of an Onan…and it will have to “rest and recover” before it wants to run properly.  Again, typically, there may be options or jumpers that can be programmed differently, but MOST ATS have the built in 120 second delay to keep from upsetting the generator.

Some of the ATS also do some voltage sensing on the Shore side and have control boards that check or monitor the incoming shore.  That is why an inline surge suppressor like the Progressive HW50C also protects the ATS from damage.  It also prevents the “fatal” open neutral that we just had a topic posted on.  OTOH, some of the higher combo TRC Surge/ATS have some of the same features.

Just needed to a make sure that point…..as it is sometimes a bit confusing as well as “mystical”.

GOOD LUCK…hope this resolves it…been a long time coming….

 

[JDCrow]

29 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

One minor comment.  Typically, when the ATS reads or senses 120 VAC, then the PCB or control board takes over.  Most (so don’t pin me down on a particular brand) have a delay…usually 120 seconds before closing the contactor(s) and allowing the Genny voltage to the main panel.  That protects the HVAC units as well as allows the genny to get stabilized….otherwise (and trust me…I figured out HOW to defeat that through stupidity) there will usually be a shutdown of an Onan…and it will have to “rest and recover” before it wants to run properly.  Again, typically, there may be options or jumpers that can be programmed differently, but MOST ATS have the built in 120 second delay to keep from upsetting the generator.

Some of the ATS also do some voltage sensing on the Shore side and have control boards that check or monitor the incoming shore.  That is why an inline surge suppressor like the Progressive HW50C also protects the ATS from damage.  It also prevents the “fatal” open neutral that we just had a topic posted on.  OTOH, some of the higher combo TRC Surge/ATS have some of the same features.

Just needed to a make sure that point…..as it is sometimes a bit confusing as well as “mystical”.

GOOD LUCK…hope this resolves it…been a long time coming….

 

Not sure how to process that. Again my understanding, when not hooked the shore power, the ATS switch defaults or clicks on to the Genset circuit, wether there is voltage from the Gen or not?
 

The ATS stays connected to the Genset circuit until it senses voltage from the shore power circut, then there is a delay, and then the switch “disconnects “ from the Genset circuit and connects to the shore power circuit. 
 

My theory, there was a voltage drop/outage, whatever at some point or my watchdog prevented power from coming in, so in either event, the ATS bumped from the shore power circuit to the Genset, but did not bounce the circut back when shore power was available again. 
 

It still maybe at the PED, to me it’s going to be one of those things that I won’t be able to catch or test for. But the obvious that the watchdog read voltage and amps, but the Coach had no power for who knows how many days, leads me back to the ATS. 
 

I’ll switch out the ATS to the Progressive this week and if I can find room with the wires, a breaker as suggested. 
 

The second week of Sept I’ll be exclusively on Gen power as we are dry camping while salmon fishing. My hope is nothing happens, at all. It might tell me I have the coach solved. 
 

IDK, I’m simple minded and trying just to follow the current and what it’s doing. 
 

Thanks again and I’ll pull the Go Power ATS apart and post pics of what it all looks like. Maybe someone with a sharp eye can see something in its guts. 

[waterskier_1]

I can see why you are confused.  There is conflicting information.  I was speaking to the ATS that I am familiar with.  It does not have a surge protector built in, but there is one before the ATS. That is where the protection and delay are initiated.  There may be some ATS with electronics embedded within them, to provide delays, but I've not worked on one. 

After reading the comment about hearing relays click when Shore Power is applied, it jogged my memory.  I do remember helping someone diagnose there no power problem, and that ATS (don't remember the brand) was set up with a "center off" position. That is, without any power from anywhere,  the input to the coach was not connected to either Shore Power or the Generator.  I didn't analyze it completely, other than to acknowledge that I could freely move the contact either way and had two coils,  one to pull down for Shore Power and a different to pull up for Generator.  We determined it was bad, neither Shore Power or generator would engage the contacts.  I'm not sure how the generator priority was accomplished on that ATS.  I know that the drawings all show a signal from the generator, which is what initiates the transfer to the generator.  The generator always has priority.  If Shore Power initiated the transfer, (absent the two coil ATS mentioned above) when the generator was started, the ATS would remain on Shore Power.  Additionally,  if the generator was running, and Shore Power connected, that would initiate a transfer from the generator. 

Bottom line: someone really needs to take thever off your ATS and watch what is (or is not) happening when Shore Power is applied and when Generator is started.  You can also check if the relay is a "double throw" or "double throw with center (unenergized) OFF".  

Sorry for contributing to the confusion.  

  -Rick N 

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, waterskier_1 said:

I can see why you are confused.  There is conflicting information.  I was speaking to the ATS that I am familiar with.  It does not have a surge protector built in, but there is one before the ATS. That is where the protection and delay are initiated.  There may be some ATS with electronics embedded within them, to provide delays, but I've not worked on one. 

After reading the comment about hearing relays click when Shore Power is applied, it jogged my memory.  I do remember helping someone diagnose there no power problem, and that ATS (don't remember the brand) was set up with a "center off" position. That is, without any power from anywhere,  the input to the coach was not connected to either Shore Power or the Generator.  I didn't analyze it completely, other than to acknowledge that I could freely move the contact either way and had two coils,  one to pull down for Shore Power and a different to pull up for Generator.  We determined it was bad, neither Shore Power or generator would engage the contacts.  I'm not sure how the generator priority was accomplished on that ATS.  I know that the drawings all show a signal from the generator, which is what initiates the transfer to the generator.  The generator always has priority.  If Shore Power initiated the transfer, (absent the two coil ATS mentioned above) when the generator was started, the ATS would remain on Shore Power.  Additionally,  if the generator was running, and Shore Power connected, that would initiate a transfer from the generator. 

Bottom line: someone really needs to take thever off your ATS and watch what is (or is not) happening when Shore Power is applied and when Generator is started.  You can also check if the relay is a "double throw" or "double throw with center (unenergized) OFF".  

Sorry for contributing to the confusion.  

  -Rick N 

JD,

Rick and I are probably going a little too deep and there are skads of ATS out there and many have “unique” features.  So, my experience is with the original IOTA 50R and it was recalled.  I replaced it with the ESCO LPT50BRD….which is what you are getting or have.  ESCO is marketing it now under its original name the Lyght.

It works this way.  It is always in the Shore or Normally closed mode.  If you read all the tech stuff…then have some aspirin.  Just put it in as it comes our of the box.  It has a built in (THiNK is set for 90 seconds) delay so that the Genny is running and should be stable.  I can tell you that if you pull a fast one….start the genny, so it will be running and then kill the pedestal, that delay feature gets faked out. There are one or two DIP switches on what is called the “Genny switch time delay board).  There are (memory) instructions inside the enclosure on defeating (auto instantaneous switching) or maybe varying the time.  My advice….don’t mess with it…

The OTHER thing is the word “typical” as in my “connotation” typical for what most members have in their Monaco’s.  History….maybe before 2000 or so, Monaco used ESCO ATS.  It was the workhorse and ESCO was the prime vendor.  It had a prefix of “60” as in the neutral was rated for 60 amps….and not the typical 50A.  It had 120 VAC coils and it “hummed” or had an “AC” sound.  Some wives objected.  In come IOTA and maybe the bean counters.  The illfated 50R, which was a fire hazard and was recalled, but those of us that had Monaco (pre bankruptcy) units got left out.  Navistar had NO legal liability to recall an IOTA…so they only replaced the ones they put in.  Most dealers, independent or Monaco or whatever started stocking and using the ESCO LPT50BRD….which was originally the LYGHT switch.  ESCO bought LYGHT…renamed it, but now they call it both as LYGHT has good PR and folks uses them…so to avoid confusion….they have (or so the literature says) an ESCO number and the word LYGHT.  The coils are DC….no hum.  Now, just to type more….when Monaco started upgrading the Dynasty and above (don’t pin me down on the year) they went with a TRC SurgeGuard switch that had surge protection…then later on…the Executive and Sig MAY have had a more expensive model.

Now, I skimmed the topic.  May have missed the name or brand of your ATS.  But if it was the same “logic” as the original ESCO or the IOTA or the new LYGHT/ESCO, it probably was a Normally closed shore…with a delay for the genny to switch to give the genny the time to stabilize.  I also forgot that you have the Power Puppy or Watch dog.  If it has the “Open Neutral” sensing, then I assume the contactor will automatically open up and shut off the incoming power…like the Progressive.  Thus, regardless of whether the downstream ATS is monitoring or senses the AC and the Neutral goes dead….you are protected….which is a great feature to save a more exotic ATS.  Again, not every ATS has the shore “connection” in the control board…but if it did, then the Progressive and presumably your WatchDog would protect it.

Hope this clears up the issues and Rick and myself were being “general”….which causes issues.

Install the ESCO LYGHT….test it out and hopefully your issues will be resolved.  It is hard for me to tell you “exactly” how long after I turn on the Pedestal breaker that I have power to the main panel (and yes…you modified that) or more precisely, when there is a LOAD…. The Progresive has to boot up and give the all clear….I THINK it makes a Clunk…as it has a heavy duty contactor…then the power is sent to the ESCO LYGHT and then it just passes (closed contacts) the power. I DO KNOW…it is not one of the NOTHING ON or center off ATS.  The aforementioned  original 60 ESCO and the IOTA was made simple….SHORE ON unless the Genny is running.  Not the more complicated “neutral” and decide which way to go…

Let us know how it works out and if you have the “where or where is my current load” syndrome resolved….take it easy.  Many of us suffer from the “at center of a lot of folks issues”…