Headlights & Taillights - Part Number Information & DOT/SAE Stamped vs Non Certified Quality Discussion

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

EDIT….

A similar topic on taillights was posted later on.  These two are similar in content ans such and have been merged.  

END EDIT
 

If there is a DOT number on any headlight lens, google it to find what vehicle it was assigned to, or take the DOT number to any parts store.  Chuck B

[RBRODDER]

Google it first.. Most of the parts stores by me are not very versatile finding stuff in the computer systems they have...

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

I trust NAPA auto parts store.  Chuck B

[Paul J A]

What is DOT / SAE

What does SAE/DOT approved mean? Why it is so important?

By law, all headlights and tail lights must be DOT approved to be legal for use on all roads and highways in all 50 states of United States. Head or tail lights without DOT approval are intend for off road use only, and are not legal for use on all US roads and highways. So all DOT approved headlights and tail lights will stamp the word “DOT” on the lights to show law officers that they are street legal and complied with the transportation law. DOT stands for Department of Transportation. It is the federal agency that set standards for car lightings. In order for head or tail light to be DOT approved, the product must meet strict regulations, standards, specifications and tests. It is to ensure the product is safe to use in public, serve its purposes and provide adequate illumination.

SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) is a world wide organization that sets automotive standards for the manufacturing, testing and design of car lightings. To be SAE approved, all headlights and tail lights must past certain standards, test procedures and material test; set by SAE to guide the quality of the product.

Note: SAE approved headlights and tail lights are not street legal in US, until they are approved by DOT. In short, SAE guide the quality of the product, and DOT test the product to make sure it is fully complied with transportation law and approve for use in all US roads and highways.

[LakeBob]

Check the parts list, the cross reference to Ford F250 headlights for my 09 were listed. 

 

[vipeboy2000]

EDIT:: Just saw the previous post from @LakeBob about the parts list that has them all listed that's awesome. 

most motorhomes have headlights/tailights from existing cars/trucks.. it's a fun game we have to figure out where they are from.. obviously some are just standard 3rd party lights that are DOT approved for trailers/projectors but most are from another vehicle... I haven't seen a list anywhere and was thinking it would be fun to make a app that tries to pull all that data into to search..  some examples for monacos on the top of my head.

• 05-11 camelot has buick century headlights, taillights from first generation 93-98 jeep grand cherokee..
• 03-04 camelot has ~2000-2006 suburban/silverado/tahoe headlights, red taillights were from old 80's gmc c/k trucks ambers were the same but with amber lenses
• 05-10 signature has 03-06 ford expedition headlights, taillights from 04-07 chevy silverado
• 06-11 dynasty has 05-06 ford excursion/f250 headlights, and ford excursion/E-series van taillights.
• etc. most of monaco's are from other vehicles.. I can try and help find anyone else who is trying to figure out which light assembly is on their coach if it is sourced from another vehicle.
• partners parents fleetwood revolution is ford contour headlights... the newer revolutions used first gen lexus rx headlights.. lol.

Edited August 3, 2023 by vipeboy2000
realized my post was redundant...

[JDCrow]

My cheap tail light upgrade cracked out and became full of dust. Unfortunately the new LED sets are likewise garbage, they don’t even work. 
 

Will bight the bullet and buy some high dollar ones 

[FLynes]

When you manage to find a set, let us know. I installed the same tail lights as the ones in your first two pics. Yes, the dust is definitely a PITA. Ours haven't cracked yet, thankfully. I do like the design of them, because they give the coach a bit of a face lift, but it really sucks when all you can get is "Made in China". What really sucks is that these tail lights aren't cheap, at least by my standards. I don't relish the idea of spending $600 on an entire set every couple of years.

[Tom Cherry]

A word from someone who spent time in a OEM supplier’s headlight/taillight manufacturing plant on many occasions and also did a lot of vacuum metalizing (how they get the shiny interior surface) as well as dealing with UV cured top coats (protects the plastic from deterioration).  Unfortunately, what you are complaining about, assuming these are NOT OEM, is common place.  The OEM approved manufacturers have to meet high quality standards….the imports…not so much….

CURIOUS…assume, a bad assumption?..that there is a DOT number as Monaco chose OEM headlight and taillight assemblies from trucks and cars and such…and then “made them fit” into the front and rear end caps, that the taillight was used in a US Vehicle.  Has anyone done a “where used” and got the specific year, make and model?  Then, is the OEM part still available and if so, how does it compare in price to the online knockoff or imports?

Most of the headlight assembly’s folks have bought are holding up, OK…but a few have failed like these.  That has always been a concern.  The “craizing” is, I think, a failure of the UV Cured top coat OR would be a failure of picking an “Not Got No UV Resistancy” plastic…..the OEM materials are quite specific.  In some cases, the knock off headlight lenses hav NO UV CURED TOP COAT.  Either a high UV resistance rating or you top coat and UV cure like a nano thin clearcoat, is necessary for the expected OEM life.

Just curious.  Thanks for letting folks know….it would be interesting to know the source and/or the vendor.  The more reputable body shops all use well know aftermarket suppliers….and have a website for them.  I wonder if you ordered them from a reputable, such as a new car dealer’s collision, repair shop, if they would last longer?  

Just some comments….
 

 

[JDCrow]

Thanks for your thoughts. Yes always knew these knockoffs are not anywhere near OEM. At 21 yrs the OEM were toast. There is no NOS for tail lights, and everything comes from the Chinese manufacturers. 
 

Even the “brand” names anxo etc fail. I paid $800 for a set of headlight from a reputable manufacturer for my F250’ to only have the coating fail right after the warranty. 
 

I’ll bite the bullet and get United lights this next time.  
 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/upd-ctl7387led-l/make/chevrolet/model/c10/year/1983

 

As far as headlights, the ones installed still look great and are incredibly bright, projectors 

 

https://www.vantageoptics.com

 

 

 

[FLynes]

Tom, up until '05 Monaco used '73-'89 Chevrolet pickup truck tail lights; in '05 Monaco kept the same Chevy design but changed to a completely new look and even advertised it in the '05 LaPalma brochure as, "Taillights with Upgraded Styling". When we bought our coach, the original "Upgraded Styling" taillights were still there, but they were crazed, cracked and fogged up. I don't remember if they had DOT numbers on them, but that really means nothing, poor quality is poor quality, regardless of who made them or which fat, lazy, mediocre government official approved them.

[JDCrow]

New taillights made it in today. When get some time I’ll get them in and update 

[JDCrow]

Here’s the difference between a $100 pair of Lights and a $200 pair

And DOT number on the expensive set 

[Frank McElroy]

8 hours ago, JDCrow said:

Here’s the difference between a $100 pair of Lights and a $200 pair

And DOT number on the expensive set 

Great point.

As our coaches age, there are a lot of cheap after market parts that can be installed (Thank you Amazon).  Those tail lights don't have DOT markings for a reason - they don't meet DOT specs. 

Over the past few years, I'm finding folks posting questions especially on electrical issues without also posting pictures.  We all make the assumption that the schematics or parts are OEM original but we then later find out that a previous owner modified the wiring or installed a non OEM part. 

I must admit that this is the first time that I've see a tail light lens without a DOT marking.  Learn something new every day.

[Tom Cherry]

OK… since this is morphing and we are learning a lot…..I’ll chime in from what I remember when I was in the Bussmann OEM (they supplied AMC and Jeep lights), there is no “Fat Dumb Government DOT inspector”.  Can’t speak for every part of every car,  but each manufacturer has to develop their own internal quality control procedures and then also have a consistent process and are subject to random or periodic inspections.  You submit samples every model year change over….one is a Pre Pilot….which is more of a form and function and then a second round…or a Pilot run.  The component is tested and examined by a team of engineers  and quality personnel.  Then, is tested for functional performance in a lab as well as in the pilot run vehicles.  If there are salt spray or corrosion resistance, then they are tested…most are “96 Hour” tests with parameters for salt spray concentrations, temperature, humidity, and then pulled and examined.

We had a full time, on site, with his own LOCKED office in my carburetor plant and he was always walking around and pulling either completed assemblies or component parts…as well as auditing our incoming quality tests and the material certifications for all items.

NOW, being familiar with running complex chemical processes, like the head or tail lights….you have an injection molding department.  All the componenets are molded with materials thaf have “certifications” with every batch or lot of molding materials received.  Same for the electronics….which are usually sub assemblies and contracted out. These vendors are visited by the manufacturig plant’s personnel, as well as fhe cutdomdf (AMC)….otherwise….you could outsource…

The tail lights are a bit differnt from headlights…but similar.  The “shiny” reflective surfacss are vacuum deposited and the thickness is measured in angstroms.  The UV resistancy of the tail lights is dependent on the material speified by AMC or Ford….or such.  If there is a clear lens, then it has a UV cured coating.  The assembly lime for a headlight has all the components assembled….and then the reflective coating is applied inside a “tunnel” …sometIimes in batches but usually on a conveyor with fixtures….the the clear lenses are fusion or ultrasonically welded…. The clear lens may be UV top coated or electro depositdd…the. UV light cures them.

There is a “master” set of DOT specs…written for about everything that goes into a motor vehicle.  They vary.  Typically they are are called FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards)…

FMVSS 108 applies to “lights”.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Motor_Vehicle_Safety_Standard_108

Read it.  Notice that meeting the standard is the responsibility of the the vehicle manufacturer or the component vendor….and not some fat government inspector…. LOL.

MY COMMENT was that the OEM parts, IF they are available from the original vehicle manufacturer that used them… a “Ford” pickup, will be higher in quality than, typically, am aftermarket part.  So, if you want OEM quality and longevity….buy the OEM part.  BUT, in order for an aftermarket part to be an acceptable part, assuming it is covered by an FMVSS standard, then that vendor must submit “paperwork” to some DOT branch….  How that is processed or if you have have lab or independent testing….haven’t a clue.  I do know that the reputable body shops use DOT certified replacement lights.

Hope this sheds a little more insight.  We have many here, I suspect, that have similar experience to mine and they might chime in….

OK..one more practical example.  Purchased a used 2011 Nissan Maxima from a reputable new car dealer’s used vehicles.  I know personally that there is a 2 hour multipoint inspection..and cars that “fail” are sent to auction.  Noticed, in bright daylight that one of the side clearance lights on the right rear tailgate didn’t work.  They said they would fix it.  Turns out, it was a combo….some LED plus incandescent bulbs.  The clearance was LED…so go figure.  So, they put in a new aftermarket light….since they are also a NC State Annual inspection location and each tech has to be certified, using a NON DOT light could result in some violations.  OK…it worked.  About a year or so later, my. Grandson backed into a post.  OK….pull out the light.  Order one from Amazon.  When I pulled the dealer installed DOT light, it says “Dorman” or some vendor’s name and PN.  Open the Amazon one….HEY….exactly the same vendor and light….  

Until now, I never questioned or wondered.  Went back and checked my purchase.  Here is the product specifications for it. Maybe they lie?  Don’t know, but if my trusted dealer or their supplier is using this brand….then THAT says a lot…as I KNOW them well and they don’t cut corners…SO, if I have to order another light for any vehicle or my MH, it is gonna be just like this one….and it will/should have a DOT number…  yep, you learn a lot….

 

[JDCrow]

Anyway, these SAE/DOT stamped tail lights are of higher quality than the others I previously purchased, as the pictures depicted. 

[Tom Cherry]

4 hours ago, JDCrow said:

Anyway, these SAE/DOT stamped tail lights are of higher quality than the others I previously purchased, as the pictures depicted. 

Now you know why….LOL

[JDCrow]

Rain finally stopped so jumped back into the taillights. 
 

Now Monaco split the turn and brakes into 2 circuits as they had an amber for turn and red for brake.  Is there anyway to put them back together so both lights will light for brakes and turns? 

[Tom Cherry]

Find the magic box.  The signals from the front were standard 4 wire….but if the “configuration” was for the 5 wire system, there is a conversion box somewhere in the REAR.  Look at your prints.  I have seen some taillight prints where the box was after the powered relays…so there was good  voltage coming in. With Monaco, you never know…they may have added a separate relay.  It should have been conventional 4 wire originating in the front….

NOW, you COULD put in a 5 to 4 standard converter box…but that seems dumb, as I suspect there is a 4 to 5 box already there.  

[JDCrow]

13 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Find the magic box.  The signals from the front were standard 4 wire….but if the “configuration” was for the 5 wire system, there is a conversion box somewhere in the REAR.  Look at your prints.  I have seen some taillight prints where the box was after the powered relays…so there was good  voltage coming in. With Monaco, you never know…they may have added a separate relay.  It should have been conventional 4 wire originating in the front….

NOW, you COULD put in a 5 to 4 standard converter box…but that seems dumb, as I suspect there is a 4 to 5 box already there.  

Ok I’ll look. I’m not up on my wiring knowledge. The 1157 socket these lights take has 3 wires. You mention 4?

[Guest Ray Davis]

18 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

Rain finally stopped so jumped back into the taillights. 
 

Now Monaco split the turn and brakes into 2 circuits as they had an amber for turn and red for brake.  Is there anyway to put them back together so both lights will light for brakes and turns? 

One way you can do it is with a dumb combiner.  I bought mine at Walmart but you can probably get one at a parts or trailer store.

https://www.etrailer.com/question-30775.html      

[Tom Cherry]

4 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

Ok I’ll look. I’m not up on my wiring knowledge. The 1157 socket these lights take has 3 wires. You mention 4?

WHOA.  4 wire was the US STANDARD.  This is for trailer taillights, but it also pertains to the vehicle’s taillights.  From UP FRONT, you would have the following.

GROUND

LEFT TURN….which was also the LEFT SIDE STOP or Brake Light

RIGHT TURN….Ditto above….except RIGHT.

PARK/CLEARANCE .  ‘Nuff said?.

SO, Typically, Monaco put in THREE relays. All powered from the Chassis (fused of course) Battery Buss.  So a relay signal turned on or flashed a relay.  When the LEFT & RIGHT turn signals were both activated….you have STOP or .Brake lights.  That is the original 4 WIRE system.  Nothing to do with the number of wires in a socket or bulbs….OBTW, There is a backup light relay.  If you tried to run wires all the way back, the voltage drop would be horrendous.

NOW the European influence.  Folks want individual “amber turn signals”.  Monaco must have installed a “converter box”.  Just a electronic gizmo.  Give it four wires (see above)….and it electronically dissects.  Ground is constant.  The flashing TURN signals will come out as TWO wires….one each to Amber….now you got 3.  Throw in the parking lights….now 4.  BUT, the CONSTANT ON of the two BRAKE LIGHTS (same bulbs as the Turn Signals) then is “magically” transformed into a BRAKE LIGHT.  One wire….it goes to  both sides, in case you lost count or your fingers (LOL) or got confused….this is the FIFTH wire.

SO, hidden, probably quite well, is a conversion box wired in AFTER the relays.  So, flashing Left Turn…now to the LT Amber bulb.  Ditto for RIGHT. BUT a Constant ON (Foot on brake) is a single wire…it runs to both the “big red” filament.  

Bottom line….find the box.  Your relays feed it.  There will probably be all FOUR as the electronic brain needs a ground to make the circuit board work.  @Ray Davis suggested a 5 to 4 box.  That would be redundant.  You have a 4 wire (3 relays) now…it is feeding into the 4 to 5 conversion box.  WHY hook up a second box to convert 5 back to 4???  You need to locate the 4-5 conversion box….find the box.  Isolate the 3 relay signals (LT, RT & Park).  Then wire your new toys like you want.

NOW…do some googling….look up 4 to 5 wire trailer circuit converter .  That is the box, I think, you have….find it…bypassing it to the new lights….would be redundant yo just convert a 5 back to a 4.  Two boxes….neither is needed as the first box has the 4 wire circuits you need…read a little…

 

[JDCrow]

Ehhh my mistake, I’m only looking at one side at a time, so less wires. 🤪

[JDCrow]

Went and looked for the aforementioned box, it’s not in general sight, I’m running out of time as it heads to the mechanic tomorrow. 
 

Anyway, ran it like it was from factory. Here’s a pic lit up camera doesn’t  like LED

[JDCrow]

Needing some more room in passenger side 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by JDCrow
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