No Headlights

[Steve2011]

Howdy all.  I’ve posted this problem on another site but not getting the help I need.  We have a 2011 Monaco Diplomat 43PD5 about 35k miles.  I can’t tell you exactly when headlights quit working because we usually don’t run at night.  I was replacing faded headlight assy when I realized neither low or high beams were working. All other lights work- clearance, tail, brake, turn, backup, driving.  I can only find one 20 amp fuse labeled headlights and it’s good. I located HL relay-No Power.  I finally located smartwheel controller and believe it is working. With headlights on when I press any of the steering wheel buttons I hear a click and the green indicator light turns red then goes back green. This coach has the Sm 211 REV B controller.

[Martinvz]

Is there a relay that may have decided not to cooperate? Find a similar relay and temporarily swap these and check if the lights now work. 

[Steve2011]

I thought of that so swapped the clearance light relay but didn’t help 

[dandick66]

It might be the headlight switch itself.  The clearance and tail lights will work when the switch is pulled partway out for “parking “ lights.  Maybe the switch isn’t making a good contact when it’s pulled all the way out for headlights.

[Steve2011]

Dan. I thought of that also.  I crawled under dash tonight and ck’d switch. Has battery voltage-12.8 volts coming in 12.72 leaving on headlight wire.  So switch test good. Thanks for the thought

[dandick66]

When you said you located the headlight relay and it had no power, do you mean you tested for 12 volts on pin 30 with the headlights turned on?

I looked at the FRB diagram for my 2012 and it indicates  VCB 11 is low beam and VCB 12 is high beam.  Do you have voltage there when headlights are turned on.  Next check VCC 1 (high beam) and VCC 2 (low beam).  VCC 1 and 2 are fed from VCB 11 and 12.  

 

 

[Steve2011]

I was cking pin 30 lights on No Power  I’m not at coach when I get back tomorrow I’ll ck VCB and VCC. If I remember correctly I had power at connector pins. I will double ck. Thanks 

[Joint Venture]

Have you looked at the Sm 211 REV B module? Are all wires going into it "healthy" looking, no burnt looking plugs or wires? My SM210 failed and I lost headlights but everything else worked. I replaced module and headlights came back.

[Steve2011]

Howdy. I pulled the SM211 module and plugs and connectors all looked good. I actually opened the box and looked at circuit board it also looked good.  So I have done a rewrite so I at least have low beams. We very rarely travel after sunset so that should get me to Yuma.  I’ll look for someone that’s smarter than me. 
Thanks for your advice. 
Steve

[Jim Pratten]

We have similar headlight loss of power issue, though ours was intermittent. We never drive at night; we often have headlights turned on but really don’t know if they’re actually illuminating. Changed fog lights yesterday, and in process of testing, found headlights and my new fog lights not working.

I’m in process of troubleshooting and repairing . At first you assume the fog lights somehow created the problem. That doesn’t appear to be the case and the problem was previously there but not recognized. So far found that the power to the headlight switch was running around 8 amps on low beam, when it worked. Inspecting the headlight switch, found the power input terminal #6 was loose and some of the plastic had melted and was “wet”.  Also, connector M1 pin 7, under the dash, was hot when working and intermittent when I jiggled. I got a new headlight switch (AC Delco D1588) yesterday at local auto parts and need to “fix” the connector power circuit.

Figured I better consult the forum and came across this recent unresolved post, so thought I’d add this experience.  My plan today is to replace the headlight switch and repair M1 connector pin 7.  However, the design appears to exceed the current limits of the headlights switch and connector M1.  Expect I’ll also be installing a low beam headlight relay in the FRP to offload the current from this circuit.  The high beams and fog lights already have relays, but my drawings don’t show them; interesting.  That mod appears to be fairly easy to do, knock on wood.

[Steve2011]

Howdy Jim.  Thanks for your information to my puzzle. We’ve been on the road since end of September so I haven’t looked at my problem. Before we left I rewired my low beams to operate on a different switch-relay and power. I also replaced my driving lights. As like you we very seldom travel at night so not having easy on off headlamps hasn’t been an issue.  When we get to Yuma next week we will be sitting until April so I’ll get back into my problem.  I very much appreciate your input.  I’ll start over in my diagnostic’s in case I overlooked something and everything is fresh in my mind.  Like you I have found the wiring diagrams I acquired from REV aren’t always truthful. 
Thanks Steve 

[KX220R]

Did you ever resolve your headlight issue? If you haven't, I may have had a similar experience with my 2011 Diplomat. It's possible we both had the same problem. If you're still having the problem, let me know and I'll share what I found wrong with mine.

[Steve2011]

Howdy.  No I have not resolved my No headlight issue.  I rewired so I had lights if needed when I was traveling. But ended up not needing as we seldom travel after dark.  We just got settled in Yuma for the winter so I need to tackle my problem.  
What problem did you have and how did you fix it?

[Jim Pratten]

My update . . . I did add a low beam relay in the FRP. Pretty straight forward; took the wire to the low beam and used it to energize a standard 87 relay. The relay now powers the low beam lights with current through the headlight switch and connectors greatly reduced.

However, none of my projects seem to end that easily. I’m pleased with the fog lights and the revised headlight circuit, but in process of “breaking” into the low beam circuit, I was rewarded with another opportunity.  The FRP terminal strip screws are mostly corroded and difficult, if not impossible, to turn and release the wires. I want to say it should be pretty easy replacing the terminal strip but . . . 

Good luck Steve with your lights. 

[Steve2011]

Thanks Jim 

Similar that I but I put a stand-alone system in for now. I have a few things I need to do before I reattach my problem. I will post what I find.

Thanks for your input. Greatly appreciated 

 

[KX220R]

My wife and I just purchased our RV this Spring in hopes that I can get all the bugs worked out before I retire in three years. We did an inspection of the RV ourselves and were aware of a multitude of issues it had prior to purchase. We knew it had a lot of minor systems issues and so did the previous owner so we were able to negotiate a deal that took all the issues into account. That being said, I'm ashamed to say that I created this issue myself and had no idea. I assumed it was an issue that I missed when I inspected the RV. In my RV's forward electrical bay there were several relay sockets that were unoccupied when I purchased the rig. I just chocked it up to the previous owners having removed them to use in another system. I promptly ordered replacements and installed them assuming whatever system they powered would now work. I then went on to troubleshoot the other 75+ items I had on my to-do list. Not until I finally got the windshield wipers working a month or so later did I notice my headlights didn't work. It took me an embarrassing amount of time to figure out what the issue was. Come to find out RoadMaster prewired the electrical bay for daytime running lights in the event that the RV were to be sold in Canada. They were required in Canada at the time and apparently not here in the states. My electrical bay has relay sockets for the day time running lights. When I installed relays in those empty sockets a month earlier they were shorting out my headlight wiring. If the RV had been sold in Canada there would have been a separate module installed that would have been controlled by the relays. Once I removed my two unnecessary relays and replaced the blown fuses, my lights worked like a charm. If you're lucky, there's a relay installed in a socket that shouldn't have one. As soon as I learned my mistake, I immediately printed labels and placed them over the unoccupied sockets. I wish you good luck with your project. These things can be frustrating when the wiring diagrams are almost impossible to find for our rigs these days. If I remember correctly the empty sockets were in the cluster against the forward bulkhead that looks like an afterthought. If you need a picture, let my know and I'll go out and take one for you. It almost seems like the 2nd relay was in the bottom, forward position of the main board.

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Tom Cherry
Highlight Cause & Effect Issue

[Tom Cherry]

9 minutes ago, KX220R said:

My wife and I just purchased our RV this Spring in hopes that I can get all the bugs worked out before I retire in three years. We did an inspection of the RV ourselves and were aware of a multitude of issues it had prior to purchase. We knew it had a lot of minor systems issues and so did the previous owner so we were able to negotiate a deal that took all the issues into account. That being said, I'm ashamed to say that I created this issue myself and had no idea. I assumed it was an issue that I missed when I inspected the RV. In my RV's forward electrical bay there were several relay sockets that were unoccupied when I purchased the rig. I just chocked it up to the previous owners having removed them to use in another system. I promptly ordered replacements and installed them assuming whatever system they powered would now work. I then went on to troubleshoot the other 75+ items I had on my to-do list. Not until I finally got the windshield wipers working a month or so later did I notice my headlights didn't work. It took me an embarrassing amount of time to figure out what the issue was. Come to find out RoadMaster prewired the electrical bay for daytime running lights in the event that the RV were to be sold in Canada. They were required in Canada at the time and apparently not here in the states. My electrical bay has relay sockets for the day time running lights. When I installed relays in those empty sockets a month earlier they were shorting out my headlight wiring. If the RV had been sold in Canada there would have been a separate module installed that would have been controlled by the relays. Once I removed my two unnecessary relays and replaced the blown fuses, my lights worked like a charm. If you're lucky, there's a relay installed in a socket that shouldn't have one. As soon as I learned my mistake, I immediately printed labels and placed them over the unoccupied sockets. I wish you good luck with your project. These things can be frustrating when the wiring diagrams are almost impossible to find for our rigs these days. If I remember correctly the empty sockets were in the cluster against the forward bulkhead that looks like an afterthought. If you need a picture, let my know and I'll go out and take one for you. It almost seems like the 2nd relay was in the bottom, forward position of the main board.

 

Kevin, Welcome.  You have just confirmed something that many of us have suspected.  I edited your post to focus on the Cause & Effect issue. We don't have good prints on the later NAV or maybe it is the REV models.

However, as a longtime Camelot owner, you are NOT the first one....that decided to "add them thar DRL".  We had at least two members in prior years with Camelot/Scepter and they experimented or swapped relays and ended up with the SAME issue.  Thanks for the post.

What this also does is confirm, as we have with some other reports on the 2011 Diplomat (Endeavor?) may have received an electrical upgrade that I think was NOT in the previous years.  Due to the bankruptcy, there were, to the best of my knowledge....so this is NOT the 11th Commandment, very few 2010's.  All the 2009's frozen on the assembly line were later revised to 2010 MY and that was very short and then the 2011's came out.

If you could post a picture of your FRB printed Circuit board and the RRB Battery Buss, that would be a great help. I have compared the 2011 RRB Battery Buss to my 2009 Camelot and it is identical or at least a twin. 

Knowing these things as well as the "probably is" similarities allows us to help owners better.  IF you happen to have a set of 2011 Prints, please PM me ( @Tom Cherry ) or @Frank McElroy and we will get them added to the files.

I did a comparison of the sales brochures and the Camelot disappeared in 2012.  However, the 2012 MY was still listed as NAV.  The Camelot/Scepter had a Intellitec MPX hybrid lighting system.  That was not listed in the 2012....so I suspect that the upgrades to the 2008 Camelot/Scepter were integrated into the Diplomat/Endeavor circa 2011 or so....and doubt it was in the few 2010's

[KX220R]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the welcome, it's appreciated.

I'm afraid this might be the only pic I currently have of the FRP in my 2011 Diplomat. I'll try to get better ones tomorrow if the weather isn't too bad. One of the DRL relay sockets is located in that forward cluster. I really don't remember where the other one was for certain but I'll focus my camera on the ones I put labels on so that everyone will know not to install a relay in them. If only RoadMaster or the coach builders had been kind enough to do that. It sure would have saved me hours of head scratching.

I don't think I have any pics of the RRB. I currently have a cover on the RV and I think it's supposed to rain tomorrow but I'll do my best.

REV tried to get me schematics from their archives but had little luck I'm afraid. They sent me some odds and ends from other years and models but I guess NAV didn't leave them much to work with.

Thanks again,

Kevin

[Tom Cherry]

2 minutes ago, KX220R said:

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the welcome, it's appreciated.

I'm afraid this might be the only pic I currently have of the FRP in my 2011 Diplomat. I'll try to get better ones tomorrow if the weather isn't too bad. One of the DRL relay sockets is located in that forward cluster. I really don't remember where the other one was for certain but I'll focus my camera on the ones I put labels on so that everyone will know not to install a relay in them. If only RoadMaster or the coach builders had been kind enough to do that. It sure would have saved me hours of head scratching.

I don't think I have any pics of the RRB. I currently have a cover on the RV and I think it's supposed to rain tomorrow but I'll do my best.

REV tried to get me schematics from their archives but had little luck I'm afraid. They sent me some odds and ends from other years and models but I guess NAV didn't leave them much to work with.

Thanks again,

Kevin

OK...we, the MODERATORS, especially have to be careful....otherwise, some folks take our every syllable as "ABSOLUTE".  SO, as my Lawyers taught me (using a Louisville Slugger as a Motivational tool", I have to say...
 

TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE and the information provided above, there is a high probability that your 2011 Diplomat has the "same type" of wiring system that was first used in the 2008 Camelot/Scepter.

Take a GOOD picture of that label or decal on the door....and save it.  That is one of your most valuable resources.

Go to SEARCH and use WIRING and click on the Everywhere drop down menu and choose FILES.

Then download the 2009 Camelot prints.  That will be a GOOD GUIDE for you.  The ONLY thing is that you do NOT have the Intellitec MPX Lighting system.  The older 2009 Diplomat files should have similar lighting prints.

There MAY be a 2011 Camelot in there....pull it also.

Thanks,

I have seen pictures of the RRB...and when convenient, post one...but it looks very similar to the 2009.  You can look at the fuses.  I THINK there is a diagram back there.

Good Luck...

[KX220R]

I appreciate you pointing me toward a potential valuable resource. Luckily, I have all my current electrical gremlins healed.....for the moment! I'm sure the future will throw me some more curve balls. I know I'll be looking for those wiring files at some point. Not having to guess where the wires go will be a huge step in the right direction. I still have a ton of things to get done on the ole girl but I'm afraid it's all the dirty, tedious stuff that I put off for last. The RV is basically put away until Spring. In the Spring I'll be tackling the list once more.  Thanks again, Kevin

[dandick66]

I don’t know if your 2011 is wired the same as my 2012, but here are photos of the RRB and FRB.  Note the DRL relay socket is circled in red.

 

[Tom Cherry]

1 minute ago, dandick66 said:

I don’t know if your 2011 is wired the same as my 2012, but here are photos of the RRB and FRB.  Note the DRL relay socket is circled in red.

 

Without pulling my prints and doing a "fuse by fuse" comparison, the FRB and the RRB are identical to the 2008 and up Camelots.

NOW.... from what you posted and looking at your print....Monaco got CHEAP on the front House Run.  I ASSUME that the larger cable on the bottom stud of the PCB is the CHASSIS.  My Camelot has a 200 A ANL fuse run on a 2/0 to the HOUSE.  The picture looks like a #2 AWG...which is dumb.  What Fuse size did they use.

I have TWO identical runs....2/0 from both Chassis and House.  I do NOT know what other circuits that are fed off the Chassis.  

BUT, myself and others have looked at the Camelot and concluded.  The Chassis is WAY over fused.  Some folks have installed a 80 Amp ANL or Resettable Circuit Breaker on the Chassis side to provide MORE protection for the Chassis stud.  There is NO WAY that the Chassis "loads" ever come close.  I would have thought that the #2 AWG would have been used for the Chassis....and the House was larger.

Got your PM....will call you maybe on Friday....too much going on and preparing for an out of town trip.

Thanks again...

Here is the label from my FRB...you can compare it.  This needs to be your bible.  If it is the same or close, I will PM you the PCB drawing for my Camelot...

 

Front Electrical Decal.pdf

[Steve2011]

My 2011 frb and rrb look exactly the same as yours. Not being derogatory but I’ve come to the conclusion if you own a Monaco that was built in the bankruptcy era you are kind of screwed because NOBODY really knows what you have. It’s trial and error. Just saying. I will look at some other wiring diagrams that have been mentioned to see if they match up. 
Thanks

[Happycarz]

Read this thread to see if it gives you some insight:

 

 

[KX220R]

Steve,

I went out today and took a picture of the two daytime running light relay sockets that I was referring to yesterday.

I found out the hard way that just because there happens to be an empty socket with wires going to it, doesn't mean it wants a relay plugged into it. At least not when Navistar put it together.

Five relay sockets were added to the forward bulkhead besides the relays located on the main board. If the RV wasn't wired for daytime running lights then the two I now have labeled "Do Not Use" don't need a relay. Trust me, they don't want a relay either. I had a small pile of blown fuses to prove it.

That's my somewhat embarrassing story. I hope it helps someone in case they do the same thing I did.

 

Here's another view that shows more of the board.