BradBak Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 On 9/26/2023 at 8:06 PM, Irishman1 said: No EMS, my plain panel just has the tank monitoring levels, battery voltage for house and chassis, water pump switch, two slide buttons and the two lighted water heater power switches, 12v and 120v. I have a small breaker box in the bedroom which has a 12v. breaker for the water heater, which is ok( and I put a new breaker in it too) and a fuse panel which also has a blade fuse for the water heater, which I replaced. The 12v switch test power at the switch , lights up and the gas lights and the water heater gets hot. The 120v has no power in or out( I also replaced the lighted switch since the panel was out)doesn’t light up and doesn’t produce hot water. How it has no power at the switch but the breaker and fuse is good probably means there’s something between the switch and panel I would think,hmmmm I have the 2006 Monarch and just replaced the heating element it is activated by the 12-volt relay right next to the element. and that fixed my problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishman1 Posted September 29, 2023 Author Share Posted September 29, 2023 13 hours ago, BradBak said: I have the 2006 Monarch and just replaced the heating element it is activated by the 12-volt relay right next to the element. and that fixed my problem 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 22 minutes ago, Irishman1 said: 👍 HOWEVER….you have NOT tested the switches. Replacing a relay and not knowing if the switch works is only an exercise in futikity. Yes….coukd be the relay. BUT, you said younhad power out of the 120vac box. The relay is downstream. If the relay has a bad switch….it is NOT energized. Verify the power from the switch. You said there is NO POWER on the outlut side of one of the switches. We can’t help fix things until we know what is working or not. Fix the switch….get power to both the two lines…. If the switch with the bottom Gray has power…..and the center has voltage…it work. but if there is power to the center terminal of the switchnwith GREEN….and when you turn it ON….you get no power. Switch is bad. SIMPLE TEST. Swap the gray and green. Turn on the gas…..if you get how water then the 120 is working. If NOT….the problem is downstream.here is what you posted Here is a picture of the back of my two switches. Not many of the colors are the same as the diagrams the two white wires are jumped between the top terminals yhe middle black wires are jumped tiger and tied to the water pump power switch the green bottom terminal and the bottom grey wires go down the wall . The bottom grey shows 13 bolts when the 12v switch is on. That’s the only power I read with any terminal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishman1 Posted September 29, 2023 Author Share Posted September 29, 2023 2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said: HOWEVER….you have NOT tested the switches. Replacing a relay and not knowing if the switch works is only an exercise in futikity. Yes….coukd be the relay. BUT, you said younhad power out of the 120vac box. The relay is downstream. If the relay has a bad switch….it is NOT energized. Verify the power from the switch. You said there is NO POWER on the outlut side of one of the switches. We can’t help fix things until we know what is working or not. Fix the switch….get power to both the two lines…. If the switch with the bottom Gray has power…..and the center has voltage…it work. but if there is power to the center terminal of the switchnwith GREEN….and when you turn it ON….you get no power. Switch is bad. SIMPLE TEST. Swap the gray and green. Turn on the gas…..if you get how water then the 120 is working. If NOT….the problem is downstream.here is what you posted Here is a picture of the back of my two switches. Not many of the colors are the same as the diagrams the two white wires are jumped between the top terminals yhe middle black wires are jumped tiger and tied to the water pump power switch the green bottom terminal and the bottom grey wires go down the wall . The bottom grey shows 13 bolts when the 12v switch is on. That’s the only power I read with any terminal Having thought it was just a burned out light bulb in the 120v switch and I still have hot water with the 12v gas switch I had swapped the switches with no difference in symptoms, no light on the switch, I then replaced the 120v switch that did not light up with a new switch from e-trailer and the symptoms remained the same as stated in the beginning. Have done that I figured it must be something else and asked here. I’m pretty sure the switch is not the problem here and is downstream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill R Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 @Irishman1 When you say you swapped the switches did you do as @Tom Cherry mentioned. swapped the gray and green wires? Did you then turn on the 120V switch, which would now be controlling the 12V gas, and did the light go on and the gas for the water heater ignite and start working? This would be the indication that the switch is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lake49068 Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 Another possibility...perhaps the potted control "box" mounted in the water heater? Had a similar problem with my long-gone '98 Endeavor. Our local RV shop (also long gone) had a tester that checked the boards circuitry and it just wasn't functioning. Replaced it and no more issues. See if you have a local shop with a tester or call Atwood tech service. This also goes back to that era...Atwood talked me through the board diagnostics which was subsequently confirmed by our local shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 14 hours ago, Irishman1 said: Having thought it was just a burned out light bulb in the 120v switch and I still have hot water with the 12v gas switch I had swapped the switches with no difference in symptoms, no light on the switch, I then replaced the 120v switch that did not light up with a new switch from e-trailer and the symptoms remained the same as stated in the beginning. Have done that I figured it must be something else and asked here. I’m pretty sure the switch is not the problem here and is downstream Back to BASICS. You said that you pulled off the wires and swapped switches, and I THINK, said you might NOT have rewired them correctly..... In addition, you have stated that you also tried a new switch. If you do NOT understand how the switch works and which wire goes where and the wires on the new switch are not marked....then there is only one way to get it right...other than getting a friend that understands a bit more about circuits.... The first thing is, did you purchase a switch that has an internal indicator light. If you purchased a switch that does NOT, then it is NOT going to work. The one that I posted the link to is called a SINGLE POLE SINGLE THROW (SPST) with an internal LIGHT when the switch is ON. If you purchased a switch that is a Single Pole Double THROW....(SPDT), it will NOT have an internal light. ASSUMING you have the right switch....this is the way it should work.... SO DO This... You said the switch with the GRAY wire, the one on the RIGHT (looking at the picture) WORKS... When you turn on the SWITCH....the light comes on and you get 12 VDC from the Center terminal to the bottom terminal or the GRAY WIRE. NOW....go to the switch on the LEFT....the Black or center terminal is looped or connected to the center of the left switch... Pull off the GREEN WIRE. PULL the WHITE WIRE off the TOP. If you have that switch OFF....put your VOM on volts. NOW, test the TOP Terminal to GROUND (use the white wire... There should be NO POWER to ground. Same DEAL for the BOTTOM. Test the BOTTOM Terminal to GROUND. Should be NO POWER.... If you get voltage on either, then you either have the wrong switch or there is an issue.... PULL OFF THE CENTER TERMINAL Black wire.. NOW set you VOM on OHMS or Continuity. With the SWITCH in the OFF position, there should NOT be a circuit (Ohms or Continuity) between the BOTTOM Terminal and the CENTER. There should NOT be a Circuit between the TOP and the CENTER. IF there is....you have the wrong switch. OK....TURN IT ON. There should STILL NOT BE A CIRCUIT from the Center to the TOP....but there SHOULD be a circuit from the Center to the BOTTOM Report back... NOW....one quick test.... You KNOW that the Switch on the RIGHT (with the GRAY wire is working). PULL OFF THE GRAY. Put the GREEN wire on it. TURN ON THAT SWITCH. If you do NOT have HOT WATER from the 120 VAC (the GRAY goes to the GAS side). When you put the green on that switch (supposedly the GAS) and we send the power to the GREEN wire or the 120 VAC side....the Water Heater should start to heat and work. If you don't get HOT Water, continuously, from the Water Heater, you have a problem downstream. THE GAS IS OFF...as in there is NO POWER (the Gray wire is NOT connected).... Do the SIMPLE test....pull the GRAY. Put the GREEN on.....if no joy....then issue, but it it WORKS, then you have the wrong switch. If you purchased the wrong switch....then you need the right one.... What you want is a Single Pole Single Throw with LIGHTED ON indicator. https://www.amazon.com/RV-Designer-S247-Rocker-Illuminated/dp/B008OAF9KE/ref=asc_df_B008OAF9KE/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309806250188&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15214545884962753204&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9009683&hvtargid=pla-567839151342&psc=1 Your good switch or the one you took may be rated for 125 VAC....that is OK...it will work FINE on the 12 VDC circuit.... Here is the circuit you have. the "FAN" is the relay that works the 120 VAC. SPST Lighted Rocker Switch Circuit.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishman1 Posted October 1, 2023 Author Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 9/29/2023 at 6:53 PM, Bill R said: @Irishman1 When you say you swapped the switches did you do as @Tom Cherry mentioned. swapped the gray and green wires? Did you then turn on the 120V switch, which would now be controlling the 12V gas, and did the light go on and the gas for the water heater ignite and start working? This would be the indication that the switch is good. It was exactly the same, the lighted switch that lit up when turning on th 12v did not light up when installed in the 120v circuit. The 120v lighted switch that did not light up when turn on anymore did light up when swapped to the 12v position. It did not light up when I swapped them back to original positions. That’s when I last tried a new lighted switch from e trailer that they sourced for me Now after all the messing around, the hot water is getting hit with either or both switches. However the 120v switch still is not lighting up when turned on. Since I have hit wster with it I’m going to just leave it for another day and get back to installing my new safe-T-plus stabilizer and get my Apple TV set up.. thank you to all of you for the help and guidance!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 9 hours ago, Irishman1 said: It was exactly the same, the lighted switch that lit up when turning on th 12v did not light up when installed in the 120v circuit. The 120v lighted switch that did not light up when turn on anymore did light up when swapped to the 12v position. It did not light up when I swapped them back to original positions. That’s when I last tried a new lighted switch from e trailer that they sourced for me Now after all the messing around, the hot water is getting hit with either or both switches. However the 120v switch still is not lighting up when turned on. Since I have hit wster with it I’m going to just leave it for another day and get back to installing my new safe-T-plus stabilizer and get my Apple TV set up.. thank you to all of you for the help and guidance!!!! LEAVE IT ALONE…. LOL. But, post a link or post the E-Trailer part number. IF, you now have power to the Hot Water (12VDC on the GREEN wire) and it heats on 120 VAC….then, odds are….all is well. So….if it works….don’t mess with it. THERE ARE ONLY TWO LOGICAL ASSUMPTIONS. The switch has a bad “internal” ON LIGHT LED… OR The white wire that is jumpered over from the GAS SWITCH “LOOKS FINE”, BUT….that line has a bad connection and the jumper is not connected so you don’t have a ground for the pilot light. A simple test. Bend a paper clip like a hair pin. Slide it under the pushed on wire connector and put the paper clip on each of the terminal tabs. If the ELECTRIC light switch’s light comes on….bingo. I think….based on reading your posts….that there is actually a connection issue INSIDE the Orange connector on the GAS siwtch (Gray wire switch). You swapped switches….ELECTRIC worked….NO LIGHT. When you did all your experiments and trouble shooting, the White Ground jumper from the Orange connector on the Gas (Gray wire) to the Electric (Green wire) has come loose. THIS does need to be fixed. The white ground wire is connected and there is another device that needs a ground from the Electric switch. OR… the terminal is corroded or loose and you need to use a pair of needle nose pliers and tighten up the internal connector. IF there is NO Ground comimg from the Gray (Gas) switch to Greeen (Electric) switch…then the wire leaving the Green (Electric) switch is NOT taking the white ground wire’s Ground…to whatever is connected to it. Monaco often messed up the crimping when they had two wires on a connection and one was not pushed in far enough. Test the grounds…. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishman1 Posted October 2, 2023 Author Share Posted October 2, 2023 23 hours ago, Tom Cherry said: LEAVE IT ALONE…. LOL. But, post a link or post the E-Trailer part number. IF, you now have power to the Hot Water (12VDC on the GREEN wire) and it heats on 120 VAC….then, odds are….all is well. So….if it works….don’t mess with it. THERE ARE ONLY TWO LOGICAL ASSUMPTIONS. The switch has a bad “internal” ON LIGHT LED… OR The white wire that is jumpered over from the GAS SWITCH “LOOKS FINE”, BUT….that line has a bad connection and the jumper is not connected so you don’t have a ground for the pilot light. A simple test. Bend a paper clip like a hair pin. Slide it under the pushed on wire connector and put the paper clip on each of the terminal tabs. If the ELECTRIC light switch’s light comes on….bingo. I think….based on reading your posts….that there is actually a connection issue INSIDE the Orange connector on the GAS siwtch (Gray wire switch). You swapped switches….ELECTRIC worked….NO LIGHT. When you did all your experiments and trouble shooting, the White Ground jumper from the Orange connector on the Gas (Gray wire) to the Electric (Green wire) has come loose. THIS does need to be fixed. The white ground wire is connected and there is another device that needs a ground from the Electric switch. OR… the terminal is corroded or loose and you need to use a pair of needle nose pliers and tighten up the internal connector. IF there is NO Ground comimg from the Gray (Gas) switch to Greeen (Electric) switch…then the wire leaving the Green (Electric) switch is NOT taking the white ground wire’s Ground…to whatever is connected to it. Monaco often messed up the crimping when they had two wires on a connection and one was not pushed in far enough. Test the grounds…. I didn’t say “LEAVE IT ALONE” thank you. I said “leave for another day “ quite different. I’m just going to work on a few other things and come back to it. again. Thanks for the help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 10 minutes ago, Irishman1 said: I didn’t say “LEAVE IT ALONE” thank you. I said “leave for another day “ quite different. I’m just going to work on a few other things and come back to it. again. Thanks for the help NOPE...you didn't. I said that as in....LEAVE IT ALONE as in "WHILST YOU ATTEND TO MORE URGENT THINGS"... Thus the LOL... I really THINK that you have a connection issue in the white ground wiring. That is, based on your exasperation and frustration in troubleshooting, the only logical conclusion. The Ground is series strung....so it APPEARS to be coming in via the working (light on) gas switch. BUT, if might just be that the connectors inside the Electric switch are loose and you need to crimp the insulation a little to make them tighter. Don't use a superman grip. If there is a problem inside the Gas switch and the ground is not making it to the Electric switch, it MIGHT be simpler to purchase a nice (under $35) RATCHETING crimper on Amazon (one with good rating). We think every MH should not leave home without one. Monaco was NOTORIOUS about not getting multiple wires in a single connector crimped. Tugging each is the first step, especially grounds. I have fixed two or maybe 3.. Fix it when appropriate. Just post what finally happened... Thanks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishman1 Posted October 4, 2023 Author Share Posted October 4, 2023 On 10/2/2023 at 8:03 AM, Tom Cherry said: NOPE...you didn't. I said that as in....LEAVE IT ALONE as in "WHILST YOU ATTEND TO MORE URGENT THINGS"... Thus the LOL... I really THINK that you have a connection issue in the white ground wiring. That is, based on your exasperation and frustration in troubleshooting, the only logical conclusion. The Ground is series strung....so it APPEARS to be coming in via the working (light on) gas switch. BUT, if might just be that the connectors inside the Electric switch are loose and you need to crimp the insulation a little to make them tighter. Don't use a superman grip. If there is a problem inside the Gas switch and the ground is not making it to the Electric switch, it MIGHT be simpler to purchase a nice (under $35) RATCHETING crimper on Amazon (one with good rating). We think every MH should not leave home without one. Monaco was NOTORIOUS about not getting multiple wires in a single connector crimped. Tugging each is the first step, especially grounds. I have fixed two or maybe 3.. Fix it when appropriate. Just post what finally happened... Thanks.... I’ll try going through the connections, they do seem tight tho. . I do have a pretty extensive collection of electrical tools and testers to make and test my own 12v wiring harnesses for my honda restorations. That’s one reason I’m so frustrated. I’ve done enough wiring to know not to let the magic smoke out! Lol. I just tired one last time with another new lighted switch with no joy. At least the water heater IS coming on and heating on both 12v and 120v , just no light in known good switches.hmmmm. After I install a new damper switch in my microwave, install my safe-t-plus and my new converter I’ll swing back to it. Thanks again for all the ideas. I still would like just one picture of the back of a 2004-5 monarch 30ppd panel showing the stock wiring with the matching switches. That would be the easiest way for me confirm I have the wiring back the way it was😢 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 @Irishman1 Do you test the lighted switches on the bench? Newer lighted switches might use LED's and therefore be polarity sensitive. Just flip them around the other way. You can even test "on the bench" with a 9V battery. Better yet, use the diode function on your DVM. You'll get continuity one direction only. - bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 50 minutes ago, cbr046 said: @Irishman1 Do you test the lighted switches on the bench? Newer lighted switches might use LED's and therefore be polarity sensitive. Just flip them around the other way. You can even test "on the bench" with a 9V battery. Better yet, use the diode function on your DVM. You'll get continuity one direction only. - bob He stated ORIGINALLY that he swapped switches. The GAS switch did not light….that is what I think I read. His pictures look correct. White ground on both switches….for “ON”. Black Power, from pump, to middle. Separate color wiires on the other end and he has both GAS & ELECTRIC working. YES ..LED are polarity sensitive. But what switch manufacturer would make a switch that was reversed….you would have to run ground to centre and power to “ON” GAS switch not lighting when on an electric….gotta be ground source…or at least the way it sounds like to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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