How to install an Original Penguin CC MPX Control Module in a new Penguin II so the Micro-Air CC MPX 357 Thermostat will work.

[Oregon04Windsor]

The rear Penguin on our 2004 Windsor no longer functions on heat or a/c, I think it's the reversing valve itself.  

I'd like to replace it with the Penguin II.  We still have the original Penguin in the front of the coach and are using a Micro Air 357 thermostat.  (FYI gas furnace, only two zones)

Micro Air says I need to put the old control board in the new a/c and nothing further should be required.  They said I only need to send them the thermostat to be reflashed if I was replacing both front and rear units with the new style.

Is that information correct?  

If I am reading the other threads on the this topic correctly, I'll want to hold onto the new controller that I swap out because when I replace the front a/c unit then I will want to put that new controller back in and have the Micro Air 357 reflashed?  Just want to make sure I'm correct on that thinking!?  Obviously it would be ideal just to replace both units at the same time but that's not in the cards right now.

 

Thanks!

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Oregon04Windsor said:

The rear Penguin on our 2004 Windsor no longer functions on heat or a/c, I think it's the reversing valve itself.  

I'd like to replace it with the Penguin II.  We still have the original Penguin in the front of the coach and are using a Micro Air 357 thermostat.  (FYI gas furnace, only two zones)

Micro Air says I need to put the old control board in the new a/c and nothing further should be required.  They said I only need to send them the thermostat to be reflashed if I was replacing both front and rear units with the new style.

Is that information correct?  

If I am reading the other threads on the this topic correctly, I'll want to hold onto the new controller that I swap out because when I replace the front a/c unit then I will want to put that new controller back in and have the Micro Air 357 reflashed?  Just want to make sure I'm correct on that thinking!?  Obviously it would be ideal just to replace both units at the same time but that's not in the cards right now.

 

Thanks!

Interesting.  Dometic says you can “dumb down” a new Penguin II.  But….that requires a DIFFERENT PN Control Module.  There has been NO INSTALLS, that members have reported, IIRC,  where they just “swapped” the old control and used it in the new Penguin II.  There are all sorts of “YouTube This is How I Did It” with mixed results where people tried to salvage their old control module and use it in a new Penguin II.

This is also the first time Micro Air has been involved in a retrofit or upgrade.  Their comments to me and others were….our thermostats work with “fully functioning CC or CC2 systems”.  We do not “understand” exactly how the systems work….only that they need a FUNCTIONAL Dometic MPX…. They supply a thermostat for the new CC2 or the CC, but each is different and there is no “will work with either one….” unit.

The conversion kit has specific instructions for some minor modifications involving the reversing valve (I THINK) and the kit is NOT a Plug and Play.  The install must be exactly, step, by step, otherwise the $200 kit will not work.

This needs to be approved by Dometic.  The simplest solution since you do not want to upgrade both is to follow the Dometic instructions.  Purchase the conversion kit…..and “dumb down” the new Penguin II.  Then it will function with the original 5 Button CC MPX Thermostat.  And “supposedly” with the Micro Air Thermostat replacing the 5 button Dometic thermostat.

Repeating what you posted for clarity, you have a Micro Air 357 that is functional on both your original Penguin units….which have the original CC MPX control system.   Dometic says you need the Conversion kit to “dumb down” the new Penguin II, so that it works with the CC (original) MPX….then once properly installed, the rear unit, which now is a CC MPX control system, a 5 button CC MPX Dometic thermostat will control the new “dumbed down” Penguin II and an original Penguin.

If Dometic says there is no practical way to install a functional CC MPX Module in the new Penguin II so that it is a CC MPX and not a CC2 MPX….then Micro Air is mistaken…..and many folks have failed when they tried to salvage their CC MPX Control Modules and get them to properly FULLY FUNCTION.  All I have read said….well, try reversing the X color wire or such.

Maybe a member has successfully converted a New Penguin II to use the original CC MPX control module and can post the procedure and provide a schematic….

The Topic Title has been revised to ask the question directly and get good information.

i guess we all will be interested.

As a matter of curiosity, did Micro Air give you specific instructions for HOW to rewire and install the CC MPX Module on the Penguin II?   It might be that Micro Air has found a flaw in their “Reverse  Engineered” CC MPX 357 thermostat and that the Dometic required conversion kit will not work and they have to upgrade or reflash the 357???

It may be that Micro Air is confused??  

[Mark B]

Well I just did this last month. Thanks for your advice Tom. I just bit the bullet and replaced both units and the ccc2 thermostat. I tried changing the coil on the reversing valve with no joy. Total cost was about $3500, upgraded to the penguin II 15k btu heat pumps. I also added two soft starts while I was in there, another $500. Only took me a couple of hours. Fortunately I have a forklift to use. I had to take the duct work apart to get to the rear bolts. I also transferred the drains to the new units, they were very brittle and I was very careful. I was able to test it on a 20 amp circuit and all works as I hoped.

I have the old duo therm 13500 unit and micro air ccc thermostat for sale market place. So far only low ballers and scammers.

[Bill R]

3 hours ago, Oregon04Windsor said:

I'd like to replace it with the Penguin II.  We still have the original Penguin in the front of the coach and are using a Micro Air 357 thermostat. 

I have a mix of the original Duo Therm in the rear and a 2019 Penguin II in the front both running on the Micro-Air 357.    Unfortunately this was done by the PO and I can not tell you what exactly they did.  When I bought the coach it had the 5 button CC system and I replaced it with the MA 357.  What I can tell you is that the board on the Penguin II is the Penguin II board with NO retrofit kit.  I know this is not much help other than it can be done.  Best I can tell, and I have not done a deep dive into this, is that they "faked" out the communication cables to make it work.  I did read somewhere in IRV2 that someone did just swap out with the old board.  But I have noticed that one of the big differences is that the Duo Therm Board uses the 12V signal to have the switching valve to run in AC mode and the Penguin II board disengages the 12V signal to run in AC mode.   Sorry I can't be of much more help other than those tidbits and I will not be able to look deeper into the communication cable hookup over the next few weeks.

On another note, if you do think it is the switching valve, I was able to just recently replace a switching valve and recharge the unit and it is working great.  Here is that thread.

 

[Tom Cherry]

Success is hard to beat.  I did a little googling.  Turns our our own site is one of the top rated for “information”.  Here is an older post.

I would call Chris Throgmartin.  He helps our members and he also has techs that know the system.  What I learned or relearned, is that the instructions for the conversion kit are confusing….and that if you do NOT have a heat pump unit, with the reversing valve, the install is easier….as in…don’t got no wires to swap.

I did read an IRV2 post where the “conversion back” to the CC(C?’2 MPX was a little daunting and folks had issues or soem ofmthe techs had issues when going back to the OEM.  

The above post has the straight skinny from Dometic….as I spent a lot of time on the phone with them and wrote my response while it was fresh.  The PN for the conversion is listed, so the install instructions can be downloaded and reviewed.

NOW…it gets “interesting”. Yes….folks say it works….but be careful.  It MAY be an issue of whether the new unit is a Heat Pump or just AC.  The info here sounds reasonable, but no guarantees.

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f54/dometic-ac-ccc-conversion-board-591105.htm

OK…GOGGLED “OUT”.  NO specific information or details on how to make or fake out the new Penguin II board. The communication cables carry a 2 wire MPX signal.  The other two are the voltage source to run the thermostat.  Swappung or crossing should drive the Thermostat crazy….but that is just an opinion.

TWO comments or requests

@Oregon04Windsor or TD, please get us some moe details from Micro Air.  The techs I talked to were not exactly “well versed or knowledgeable” about how the control boards and the MPX circuitry worked and said to “ask Dometic, as we DON’T KNOWl

Second, TD, I’d PM or contact @throgmartin.  He is the owner of Talin RV (google it) and see if he can shed some light on this.  As the HVAC’s age and pass on, we need facts and specifics to help other members….

 

[Bill R]

@Tom Cherry @Oregon04Windsor  I was mistaken in my comment about the Penguin II on my coach having the original board.  I pulled up a picture of the board and compared it to the conversion kit board and it is in fact the conversion kit board.  My apologies for the misidentification.  But I can confirm that the conversion board does work.  

[Tom Cherry]

28 minutes ago, Bill R said:

@Tom Cherry @Oregon04Windsor  I was mistaken in my comment about the Penguin II on my coach having the original board.  I pulled up a picture of the board and compared it to the conversion kit board and it is in fact the conversion kit board.  My apologies for the misidentification.  But I can confirm that the conversion board does work.  

Hey, thanks for persevering.  This topic should be cut and dried and pressed…but it keeps getting resuscitated.  Unfortunately, due to the dollars and the various options, it is….as well it should be, explored to see if there is a magic bullet.

So….now the posts here and other places are starting to gel and make sense.

Appreciate you checking and correcting.  Most have confirmed that the conversion works….and now, based on your original information it also works with the Micro Air.  So, the jury is still out on Micro Air’s comments and recommendations.  Hope that gets resolved so that we have the facts and can continue to advise folks of their options as well as what will not work.

[Oregon04Windsor]

7 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

 

Repeating what you posted for clarity, you have a Micro Air 357 that is functional on both your original Penguin units….which have the original CC MPX control system.   Dometic says you need the Conversion kit to “dumb down” the new Penguin II, so that it works with the CC (original) MPX….then once properly installed, the rear unit, which now is a CC MPX control system, a 5 button CC MPX Dometic thermostat will control the new “dumbed down” Penguin II and an original Penguin. It may be that Micro Air is confused??  

Dometic gave no other option other than to say the new Penguin II was only compatible with the 10 button thermostat.  Below is MicroAirs initial response:  "When you have our 357 thermostat and switch AC units requiring the 350, you are in luck. We can reflash the 357 to make it work for your new needs."   

Then when I asked for clarification, I got this response from someone else there:  "Just replace the board in the new AC unit with your old board. No other changes are needed. The replacement is only for people replacing both with new control boards."

So that leaves me more confused than when I started!  

 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Oregon04Windsor said:

Dometic gave no other option other than to say the new Penguin II was only compatible with the 10 button thermostat.  Below is MicroAirs initial response:  "When you have our 357 thermostat and switch AC units requiring the 350, you are in luck. We can reflash the 357 to make it work for your new needs."   

Then when I asked for clarification, I got this response from someone else there:  "Just replace the board in the new AC unit with your old board. No other changes are needed. The replacement is only for people replacing both with new control boards."

So that leaves me more confused than when I started!  

 

OK….Dometic said that the Penguin II, as configured, is only compatible with the 10 button.  But they sell a conversion kit that works with the Penguin II and then it is compatible with their 5 button units.  It says so right in the instructions.

https://newpar.newmarcorp.com/instance1Env99NEWMAR/html/images/019929.pdf

This was all in the links that were included.  Go back and read the one marked “Stumped”.  There is a YouTube video… 

OR

 Micro Air’s response perhaps or maybe tells you that Micro Air has no idea how the control boards work or their MPX systems. .if you put in the conversion kit, you know that works….we have many that have done it and it works with the existing Micro Air….

Your call.

[amphi_sc]

If the moderators think this post is "beating a dead horse" go ahead and delete it.

My experience:  I have 3 Heat pump units originally controlled as front 1 zone 5 button, middle and rear controlled from bedroom 5 button as zones 1 & 2 on that original thermostat.  Front original Penguin compressor lockup during COVID supply chain crisis.  No physical room on the wall for the new 10 button thermostat so ordered new penguin II heat pump and "dumb down" conversion board.  Months later supply opened up and the unit shipped.  (I then noticed more stock was on hand so ordered 2 more new Penguin IIs for when the others die...). Installed the "dumbed down" board taping up the unused wire rather than cutting it.  Worked well A/C, heat, and Aqua hot) with caveat of noisy fan as old style thermostat only knows two of the 3 fan speeds. 

Months later middle heat pump dies but in the intervening time I picked up a Micro Air thermostat at a FMCA convention.  In talking to the reps there I decide to get the model for the NEW Penguin IIs rather than the MA model compatible with the 5 button.

The MA is only slightly wider than the 5 button so it could somewhat fit on the wall between the cabinet door and bathroom door where the original front 5 button was.  Still have to watch opening the bathroom door as it will contact the thermostat at the extreme open open position.

So moved Dumb Down board to new unit installing in the middle & easily restored the new Penguin II board into Front unit as wire was taped and not clipped.  That was easier than moving the physical unit.

So now middle and rear controlled by old style 5 btn and front new style Penguin II and new style MA thermostat. When the final rear unit dies I'll put the new style board back into the middle unit and use a new style thermostat for those two units. (And be able to sell/donate/trash the dumb down board.) Wall space is not an issue in the bedroom.

All easily done with the help of a long extension ladder to slide boxed new unit to the roof using the ladder as an inclined plane & and a couple of neighbors on the roof to follow my positioning instructions as they lowered it into the duct work. Boards are easy to swap but must use the "dumb down" board with a heat pump as the reversing valve comes into play and the default positioning is backwards between the old and new style units.  If just an A/C unit with no reversing valve then that is a different story on compatibility.

Moderator EDIT.  The following from the original text has been enhanced as it states the solution and summarizes the issues....

My understanding from the OP post is he purchased the MA thermostat compatible with the 5 button old style units and not the version compatible with the new Penguin IIs.  So I would conclude he needs the "dumb down" board to work with other old style unit and old style MA thermostat.  When the other unit dies he'll have to choose between another dumb down board or upgrading (factory re-flash???) the thermostat to take advantage of the three fan speeds of the new style units (and to work with the redesigned reversing valve logic).

Edited October 23, 2023 by Tom Cherry
Emphasize the solution - last paragraph

[MyronTruex]

In the middle of Covid shortages, my front AC died. It was also the middle of Summer in the middle of Florida.

Buying a noisy portable unit was the only thing available.

After some time and at least three, maybe four, returns to Amazon due to damaged units. I got one installed.

Two were not available so I had to make the new one backwards compatible to the 5 button thermostat.

The conversion was indeed a $130 board at the time. I’m an ET so the changeout was not difficult. It was a bit distressing capping a wire or two and folding them back out of the way and not knowing the function of those wires.

My AC’s have heat pumps. My AC’s were 15K units. Only 13K units were available at the time.

When the new AC, with a new backwards compatible board fired up there was a lot of relief in the air.

Some time later another AC unit (price increase of course of $200), became available. Same issues with damage in transit and horridly built units. Loose wiring, pinched wiring, misplaced things. Penguins were horridly built.

With both old AC’s on hand they, along with the new boards removed from the new units, were listed on either Craigs list or the Market place.

Some human person, only described by me as a human forklift showed up with a trailer and cash in hand. He picked up one of the units like it was a bag of trash, threw it over his shoulder and put it in the trailer.

I should now replace my 5 button with the Microair. I think my thermostat has a bit of an intermittent. It will go wonky, (technical term to be used only by highly qualified ET’s with a half century of experience))

Changing the new boards out in a new unit is a bit unnerving, even for an old tech. The instructions were quite good. Far better than most.

[Tom Cherry]

42 minutes ago, amphi_sc said:

If the moderators think this post is "beating a dead horse" go ahead and delete it.

My experience:  I have 3 Heat pump units originally controlled as front 1 zone 5 button, middle and rear controlled from bedroom 5 button as zones 1 & 2 on that original thermostat.  Front original Penguin compressor lockup during COVID supply chain crisis.  No physical room on the wall for the new 10 button thermostat so ordered new penguin II heat pump and "dumb down" conversion board.  Months later supply opened up and the unit shipped.  (I then noticed more stock was on hand so ordered 2 more new Penguin IIs for when the others die...). Installed the "dumbed down" board taping up the unused wire rather than cutting it.  Worked well A/C, heat, and Aqua hot) with caveat of noisy fan as old style thermostat only knows two of the 3 fan speeds. 

Months later middle heat pump dies but in the intervening time I picked up a Micro Air thermostat at a FMCA convention.  In talking to the reps there I decide to get the model for the NEW Penguin IIs rather than the MA model compatible with the 5 button.

The MA is only slightly wider than the 5 button so it could somewhat fit on the wall between the cabinet door and bathroom door where the original front 5 button was.  Still have to watch opening the bathroom door as it will contact the thermostat at the extreme open open position.

So moved Dumb Down board to new unit installing in the middle & easily restored the new Penguin II board into Front unit as wire was taped and not clipped.  That was easier than moving the physical unit.

So now middle and rear controlled by old style 5 btn and front new style Penguin II and new style MA thermostat. When the final rear unit dies I'll put the new style board back into the middle unit and use a new style thermostat for those two units. (And be able to sell/donate/trash the dumb down board.) Wall space is not an issue in the bedroom.

All easily done with the help of a long extension ladder to slide boxed new unit to the roof using the ladder as an inclined plane & and a couple of neighbors on the roof to follow my positioning instructions as they lowered it into the duct work. Boards are easy to swap but must use the "dumb down" board with a heat pump as the reversing valve comes into play and the default positioning is backwards between the old and new style units.  If just an A/C unit with no reversing valve then that is a different story on compatibility.

Moderator EDIT.  The following from the original text has been enhanced as it states the solution and summarizes the issues....

My understanding from the OP post is he purchased the MA thermostat compatible with the 5 button old style units and not the version compatible with the new Penguin IIs.  So I would conclude he needs the "dumb down" board to work with other old style unit and old style MA thermostat.  When the other unit dies he'll have to choose between another dumb down board or upgrading (factory re-flash???) the thermostat to take advantage of the three fan speeds of the new style units (and to work with the redesigned reversing valve logic).

Al, thank you for the above.  This has been said, many times and many ways.  Your synopsis is concise.  I will add, what I think, is a minor note...for Clarity.  Per TD ( @Oregon04Windsor ), yes, he has the MA 357.  That IS the replacement for the 5 Button Dometic.  So, he has the correct thermostat that will work with the new, Dumb Downed Penguin II, assuming the conversion kit is installed.  The baffling part, other that MA telling him to do something that no one else has done nor does Dometic say it will work, is WHY did MA tell him to "return the 357 for Reflashing".  Unless MA has changed the design or made some technological breakthrough, the 5 button replacement (357) can NOT be used for the 10 Button new CCC2 (Penguin II) MPX Control.  That is not logical nor has anyone here or on other sites had to have their 357 reflashed.  This is the FIRST post about doing that. 

My take is still the same.  MA does not understand HOW the Dometic System's MPX controls works.  That is the only concern about MA in that they "insist" that one have a working Dometic MPX system and that they, MA, just reverse engineered the two Dometic thermostats and created a clone that sends out the proper signals....but packaged it in an envelope that has additional features.  However, they, MA are not a reliable source for "trouble shooting" Dometic MPX control issues. When issues pop up, then we have members turn to the "forum" to get help as their hybrid systems can not or will not have Technical Support from either MA or Dometic....

I guess we just wait and see....for now..  Yes, this topic is getting worn thin...but your summary is concise....so we just wait....

@Oregon04Windsor needs to sort through this, understand it, then proceed.  You stated the obvious and logical....  Thanks again....