2002 Windsor High Charge Voltage at Startup Anomaly

[tmw188]

I noticed just by happen chance a few days ago that I had started the coach with the Chassis battery switch OFF and the House battery switch On. I got a high voltage alarm on my Victron 712 display and I opened the app to take a look and it was 17volts on the Chassis battery. I had the rear electric bay opened that’s when I seen the Chassis switch was off, I turned it on while monitoring it with the Victron app, engine running and it Dropped down to where it should be ~14ish. I turned the motor off and restarted it and it did not show high voltage. Today I was able to replicate the same thing. Turn the Chassis battery switch off and started the coach on the House bank and the voltage started climbing again pretty quickly on the Chassis battery so I turn the motor off. I turned the Chassis battery on again restarted and everything was fine. I did do some voltage checking to and from the latching relay and the boost switch and it seems to be ok but it just doesn’t explain why the coach would start with the Chassis battery switch off.  Very odd, what say some of you knowledgable geeks out there?

[Ivan K]

If your alternator is the Duvac kind and the reference lead gets disconnected because it is past the switch, it will do what it can to get the reference voltage, which is now missing, to where it should be, ~14V. I don't know your coach to tell why is it starting off house but the starter lead does not go through the switch anyway.

Edited April 28 by Ivan K

[Tom Cherry]

OK….MY 2 CENTS.  First, the Chassis switch is only for the “other stuff”.  There is direct 4/0 cable from the Chassis to the starter lug.  That does not go through the House Disconnect.  However, there is also another (probably 4/0) that goes through the Chassis disconnect.  It “runs” the Chassis stuff….some high drain stuff and fuses. 

FWIW, there is also a heater element inside the air intake.  That element is like a high performance toaster.  Once the engine starts to warm up, it cuts out.  There is a “circuit” that is designed to protect the charging circuit….as not burning up or overloading the alternator.  If you watch your dash VOM, you will see it read around 12.7 VDC for up to a minute or more. Once the electric preheater shuts down, there may (don’t quote me) be a delay of a few seconds or longer.  Then the Alternator gets an OK signal or something switches and the alternator starts to charge the chassis….like normal.  We occasionally get an OMG….Alternator broke and NOT charging topic.  Simple….the engine and charging circuits are acting normal…..most never notice it or pay close attention.

I have no idea how the Victron device or measuring circuit works….but, i would NEVER, EVER start a Monaco with the Chassis battery disconnected.  That mischief COULD do some damage.

My take.  Start up the engine.  Use the CHASSIS Voltmeter as designed. i have a digital one that Monaco incorporated into the gauge cluster or the center information display.  I know exactly when the heaters turn off and watch the voltage jump up 13.9/14.0.

As long as you see that happening….fine.  Want a more precise number….hook up a VOM to a power plug and plug into the dash charging port….

SO, assuming you see the normal jump….and weather will play a big factor.  If the WAIT TO START light stays on a long time, the longer the voltage stays low as the charging circuit is cut off.

If all is well….then check the Victron.  Odds are, you jimmied the system by not having all the Chassis power on and no harm done.

Still get the alarm.  Gonna have to figure out if the alternator is OK.  I HAVE NO IDEA where the Victron is reading….or what the parameters are….but ther will be a short shot of up to 1,500 amps to the starter….on that you can depend.

 

[tmw188]

 

34 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

.but, i would NEVER, EVER start a Monaco with the Chassis battery disconnected.  That mischief COULD do some damage.

NO Mischief or intentional choice Tom. I had forgotten to turn it back on after doing some work. Victron is a shunt based monitor.

Edited April 29 by tmw188

[tmw188]

The Vitron is a shunt based monitoring system, reads voltage, loads, SOC abd other parameters. 

[jacwjames]

So, I also own a 2002 Windsor so should be pretty close to what Todd has (snowflakes). 

He states the disconnect was off but was able to start the coach at which point he saw the high voltage on chassis batteries.  I'm so confused🤬

With the disconnect off the coach should not have started UNLESS the Isolation Solenoid is closed which would combine both battery banks, that's the only way to get voltage to the starter, otherwise the two systems are separate.   I know one time my disconnect failed and I had NOTHING at the dash and the rig would not start, basically the same as turning the disconnect off.  Only way to get power to start is to go through the isolation solenoid which closes when you press the boost switch. 

I've sent Todd a PM to have him check some things.  Hopefully he'll report back tomorrow. 

[Tom Cherry]

10 hours ago, jacwjames said:

So, I also own a 2002 Windsor so should be pretty close to what Todd has (snowflakes). 

He states the disconnect was off but was able to start the coach at which point he saw the high voltage on chassis batteries.  I'm so confused🤬

With the disconnect off the coach should not have started UNLESS the Isolation Solenoid is closed which would combine both battery banks, that's the only way to get voltage to the starter, otherwise the two systems are separate.   I know one time my disconnect failed and I had NOTHING at the dash and the rig would not start, basically the same as turning the disconnect off.  Only way to get power to start is to go through the isolation solenoid which closes when you press the boost switch. 

I've sent Todd a PM to have him check some things.  Hopefully he'll report back tomorrow. 

FWIW…..the fog cleared a little this morning.  Early after joining, I helped some fellow owners of 2009 Camelot’s with a few “strange” conditions.  Jim’s comments sort of rang a bell.  We had one owner that did, frequently, turn off the Chassis battery, thinking, even on shore….with a 100% “functional” Intellitec BIRD or BiDirectional charging system, that he was protecting the chassis battery.  His rig would start.  I was, offline, in contact with 3 or so other 09 owners.

NONE of our rigs would start.  We all tested and repeated.  The individual with the condition also reported erratic conditions after starting that showed up on the gauge cluster. I then contacted Monaco tech support.  This happened after the Navistar purchase and the same prebankruptcy personnel had been recalled and were there.  

Their comment.  It “AIN’T” SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN…and they said it was not a condition that was ONLY a Camelot/Scepter issue….but happened on several models over the years.  Bottom line…..”don’t try to start” with the Chassis OFF.  Quote….in is not something that is supposed to happen, but it does…..and we never got a good answer.  That was circa 2011…..

Fast Forward.  Now after looking at high current prints on just about every model goin back to 2000….  Jim brings up a good point.  The Chassis Battery is NOT switched ON or OFF going to the starter.  That would take a 2000 Amp disconnect switch.  

BUT, the Chassis Disconnect switch has to be ON to provide power to the entire Chassis circuit. That power is what sends the start signal via the ON ignition switch to the rear and energizes the RRB. Without pulling prints, there is a signal to the starter solenoid and “something” is now providing power to at least that section of the Chassis circuit.  This comment is sort of a reach back in time….but based on the circuit. In addition, there is a Neutral Safety Start signal and relay involved.  Whether this Windsor has the same “wiring discrepancy (s) that one Camelot had and it is wired “per the OEM prints” or whether someone “modified” a circuit or such, I don’t know. What I DO know is that the 09 Camelot had a functional BIRD system….as I learned how to “troubleshoot” that system from the Intellitec tech support tech….and he was good and patient…..but, he had a coronary and the “candy” shop took over troubleshooting.

SO….all that to say…  I DO KNOW that the Big Boy Solenoid was NOT engaged or closed with the Chassis disconnect OFF as in the Big Boy was not passing current or in effect, jumpering, the batteries.  

OK…..cutting to the chase…based on what I personally know today…. this may, for this one Windsor, be NORMAL.  Many other Windsor owners might disagree….and for their rigs, be correct. All i know for certain, Monaco tech support said it infrequently happened…almost rare….but it DID and on a MH right out of the factory.  SO, chasing a wiring error, only on a few units out of a model year, will be challenging….unless one knows the circuits and has the prints and can find the “opps, shouldn’t have been here” connection.  

Next up, addressing the comment about the “Victron” being the equivalent of the Magnum BMK….which is a shunt based system.  I admit to being less than well versed on aftermarket additions.  Unfortunately, I and many contributors have tried to lend assistance to folks that said “Victron”….and yes, now that I see the screen, that does make sense.  However, we had situations where there was a variety of “Victron” devices and it was only after a lot of frustration on my and other contributor’s part did we realize that the OEM “systems” had been virtually gutted…..and all our comments about look here and do that just lead to frustration on the other end.

The STOCK RESPONSE, we usually make is….What mods have been made and provide pictures. Then usually a member with specific knowledge of that add on(s) will take over and usually go offline as the bulk of assistance given here is for the OEM components.  So, I appreciate the update.

But, fundamentally…..the “don’t do this” advice from the Monaco tech support and my recommendation still stands.  Follow the operating procedures in the manual, Monaco, or the “device’s” manual.  If that eliminates the problem and no harm has been done….unless you have a high IQ in electrical/electronics and can follow the schematics and then manually troubleshoot….then best to move on.

Sorry for the length….but some posts are considered as “teaching moments” and members learn the basics and the contributions here are more focused and relevant.

Todd….please let us know if the spike or alarm happens when both switches are on. No one, way back when, when your MH was built was using a BMK or Shunt based monitor….I don’t know when Magnum added the kit to their line, but I don’t recall the BMK initials being used to much later….mid 2010’s or so.

I really don’t think there is an issue…just an abnormality in your wiring and when all is correct, the alarm doesn’t sound off…

Thanks…

 

 

 

[tmw188]

Todd….please let us know if the spike or alarm happens when both switches are on
 

Everything functions as it should when both switches are on as stated. They both are always on unless perhaps performing some work. 
I will send some photos of my BIRD and Maintainer with some notes showing some disconnected wires that are taped up. Whether or not it has anything to do with it I don’t know. But all is good when both switches are on. GOOD THING I had the Victron over voltage warning enabled.

[Tom Cherry]

10 minutes ago, tmw188 said:

Todd….please let us know if the spike or alarm happens when both switches are on
 

Everything functions as it should when both switches are on as stated. They both are always on unless perhaps performing some work. 
I will send some photos of my BIRD and Maintainer with some notes showing some disconnected wires that are taped up. Whether or not it has anything to do with it I don’t know. But all is good when both switches are on. GOOD THING I had the Victron over voltage warning enabled.

Cool.  UNLESS someone did a “Mod”, then you have one of the “rare….but OEM” units that WILL start, although it isn’t, according to the old time Monaco Tech Support….supposed to.  As many state here, you have a SNOWFLAKE… when operated correctly, all is fine.  What alerted the Camelot owner was the gauges acting erratically.  Your may NOT if the “glitch” or wiring error was different.  

This situation can be a learning or teaching moment.  If it doesn’t start….don’t always assume a dead battery.  BOTH switches should be ON.  If the gauges or any other electrical abnormalities occur….I THINK that the Camelot would not allow the tranny to shift…or maybe the Allison pad was dead…..this is a 13 YO recollection. Then SHUTDOWN and start with the basics.

Glad it is solved…..based on Monaco’s comments….you would have been alerted to an abnormal condition…..  BUT, my take, what caused the issue, as previously posted.  The “lockout” on the charging circuit was NOT energized….as it is is powered from the chassis bank and the “ignition” switch and the entire starting system being properly “ON”. Since it wasn’t, the intake heaters were on when the starter was engaged and the delay, as in the “wait to start” sequence had not been allowed to “run the proper” cycle.  Thus, the power hungry toaster elements were ON….and the starter was engaged.  PURE SPECULATION….your battery must have been GOOD….as in the engine started WITH the heaters on.  

I may be  wrong….others will or may chime in, but that abnormal or non standard condition alerted our Victron….

SO, a reminder to all.  If you routinely turn off the batteries, both or just one bank, turn them BACK on.

Curious….do you ordinarily see a “wait to start” light? Mine is temperature sensitive.  If so snd it didn’t happen when the spike occurred….then that verifies my theory.  If NOT….as Monaco said….”we don’t know….just follow the manual”.

Thanks for the feedback….

 

[Rocketman3]

What house batteries do you have that started the engine?

Also, I am curious on how many amps it took to start the motor? on your Victron app, look at the trends page- select current and go bank in time until you see those start events.

If you purchase the standard Victron BMV712 that has a 500a shunt- not recommended to put more than 500amps through it - so I would not redo the experiment.

Edited April 29 by Rocketman3

[Ivan K]

The house batteries did not turn the starter, they only somehow provided the starter solenoid signal which is minimal.

[jacwjames]

The other issue is that my rig has only a 200 amp continuous duty latching solenoid.  This is used as a battery boost function but not to carry the full load of starting.  Won't take many times before this fails.  The primary purpose of this solenoid is maintaining batteries voltage while driving or on shore power, not to carry lots of amps. 

Still waiting on info from Todd, he texted me this AM saying he was tied up in the morning.

[Tom Cherry]

2 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

The other issue is that my rig has only a 200 amp continuous duty latching solenoid.  This is used as a battery boost function but not to carry the full load of starting.  Won't take many times before this fails.  The primary purpose of this solenoid is maintaining batteries voltage while driving or on shore power, not to carry lots of amps. 

Still waiting on info from Todd, he texted me this AM saying he was tied up in the morning.

I stick with my theory.  The “isolator” did not provide the starting current, even if energized or engaged. I know that from working on a similar rig. The direct 4/0 cable from the Chassis Bank to the starter lug delivers that 1500 or so amp current.  YES….if the isolator was powering the low current, under 200 Amps to “rest” of the chassis circuit….the. It was “technically” in the entire circuit…but not being overloaded.

With the alleged mods….who knows.  But even if 100% OEM, there were certain MH’s…not a lot that would start like Todd’s.

In addition, Monaco would tell owners….not a warranty issue…if you follow the correct procedures as in “both banks” on.

But, if you or Todd, find a mod that is causing this, please post as others might benefit….

[tmw188]

2 hours ago, Rocketman3 said:

What house batteries do you have that started the engine?

Also, I am curious on how many amps it took to start the motor? on your Victron app, look at the trends page- select current and go bank in time until you see those start events.

If you purchase the standard Victron BMV712 that has a 500a shunt- not recommended to put more than 500amps through it - so I would not redo the experiment.

Can’t find a way in Trends to go back a few days or more without scrolling back minutes at a time. 

Ok here are some pics that I took of my current setup. Note I did not make these changes it’s been this way since I’ve own the coach 3yrs. Curious to know why some of the wires are pulled back taped up and abandoned. They may or may not have anything to do with this issue. I would however like some feed back on why this may have been done. I will say this too, the salesman switch near the entry door does not work. 
Anyone wanting to see if their rig will start with the Chassis battery off you can check without actually starting it. Just turn the key to the on position to see if will energize the dash. Do not actually start it to be safe. Once again this was all discovered accidentally by the Victron alarm not from performing any changes. 
 

Photos show my current setup, anyone one with info on that would be great.

Edited April 29 by tmw188

[jacwjames]

The plot thickens.

Some one has abandoned the original house/coach charging system.  The Lambert 415 maintainer is what originally kept the chassis batteries charged while on shore power and the house batteries charge via alternator while driving.    The disconnected the generator sense wire so the BIRD wouldn't prevent charging while generator was running.  

Can you trace the white wire that is connected to the Lambert 415 and the black wire, where do these go.

My guess is that the wiring changes closes the isolation solenoid/relay and connect both battery banks together all the time. That is why you were able to start the rig with the chassis disconnect off.  

Cart before the horse, not sure if the Lambert went bad or the BIRD. 

 

Either way easiest solution to get the charging system working back close to the way it was is to install a Bluesea.   I started questioning my Lambert 415, it started to click on/off faster/slower, which had never done before.  I installed a Bluesea and abandoned the Lambert, BIRD, and Isolation Solenoid/relay ~3 years ago. 

 

[tmw188]

Without verifying again because it’s been sometime since I was checking things out to get familiar with things a few yrs ago, but to the best of my recollect it is charging both banks while the motor is running and while on shore power. The generator I’m not sure about. The big boy relay is pulling in. For now I’ll leave things as is until I decide to go with the Blue Sea. 
that black wire on the bottom of the maintainer rus over to the bottom of the big boy relay. 
 

[jacwjames]

I tried to look at mine, I've installed the Bluesea but when I removed the wires I tried to label them.

Only thing I see that is a little concerning is the white wire attached to the bottom lug of the Lambert, does it go to the BIRD coach battery tab??

6 hours ago, Ivan K said:

The house batteries did not turn the starter, they only somehow provided the starter solenoid signal which is minimal.

Ya, had a brain fart.   Still doesn't make sense why the boost solenoid is on all the time. 

[tmw188]

I will look at that specific termination and get back to you. 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, tmw188 said:

Without verifying again because it’s been sometime since I was checking things out to get familiar with things a few yrs ago, but to the best of my recollect it is charging both banks while the motor is running and while on shore power. The generator I’m not sure about. The big boy relay is pulling in. For now I’ll leave things as is until I decide to go with the Blue Sea. 
that black wire on the bottom of the maintainer rus over to the bottom of the big boy relay. 
 

First off.  You have the Intellitec Diesel BIRD….OR “DIESEL” Module.  The newer ones were called “Diesel2”.  Some minor upgrades.  It cal called the Charg(ing) Controller. Now That is in a picture.  Do NOT sweat that there is no wire on Generator.  Monaco or Intellitec “thought” that dual charging was a NONO. Best guess….they copied another MH or were misinformed or”lacking knowledge”.  Bottom line….the Genset wire doesnt exist on the later ones….so cross that off.

Next. The isolator is totally NON FUNCTIONAL.  It is just a “connection stud”. The infamous WHITE wire should trace back to the Coach Battery Terminal on the Charging controller.  It is just an INPUT. Same goes for the IGNITION.  It is the input from the Ignition….as in when the MH is running…..as in, then the module is monitoing the Coach Bank and the Chassis (when running) bank.  OK….that leaves ONE wire.  This is the RELAY or it goes to the Battery Bank BOOST Solenoid.  Trace that wire…..I HOPE it goes directly….but it MIGHT go to one of the two relays (black boxes).

Here’s how it works….  The LATER edition battery Boosts were 200 Amp Solenoids….NOW…it appears that the White Rogers solenoid is the BOOST or Inerconnect solenoid.  Your cropped and blown up photos don’t show the PN.  Google it.  Then post a link or a screen shot of the spec sheets.  In essecnce, the Charging Controller is measuring the voltage on each bank.  As long as one needs a little juice….then it tells the “Relay” to close or energize the coil.  NOW….as stated…the Diesel and Diesel2 had some differences.  You can test this.  The 200 Amp solenoid that Jim described was typically a 200A ONLY INTERMITTENT….not continuous.  
SO, if you fed it a full 12 VDC….it burned up the coil.  SO, Intellitec sent out a Pulsed or ON/OFF 12 VDC.  The duty or ON time was around 25 - 33%.  Therefore if you used a DVOM….it “looked” like a low voltage signal.  NOPE… but it measured about 3 - 4 VDC.  That lower pulsed version kept the coil happy.  

BUT WAIT….what else does that Big Boy or Battery Connection or JUMPER switch do?  It is the Battery BOOST switch up front.  So it NEEDED a full 12 VDC.  But….read the manual.  Do not hold it on for too long.  Some “less than well informed” MH owners got the brilliant thought….I’ll put a Golf Tee under that spring loaded switch….I’ll have BIRD Charging.  YEAH RIGHT.  Maybe for a day or maybe longer…but then they burned out the COIL and fussed at the “life expectancy” of the solenoid.  MY Circuit….probably similar to yours.

Time for MORE caffeine.  There is PROBABLY a Bosch relay.  Terminals 85 and 86 are positive and negative from the BOOST switch.  Push in that spring loaded switch….the relay coil is energized…..the. There is a FULL 12 VDC going to the “solenoid”.  From a relay standpoint…..terminal 30 is connected to terminal 87A when the relay is NOT powered or the coil is not energized.  BUT, energize the coil…..then terminal 30 goes to terminal 87.  Got all that?

When the BIRD system is operationlas….the “relay” signal, probably pulsed, goes to terminal 87A…..then terminal 30 has power and goes to Jumper or BOOST solenoid….so all are charging….assumng AC (Gnerator acts the same as AC) or the engine is running.  NOW….OPPS….you need a BOOST.  Assuming there is enough power on the HOUSE side….as the up front switch gets the power (positive) from the HOUSE….then there is a power wire that goes back to coil.  The Bosch relay closes….and BINGO, there is FULL (non PULSED” 12 VDC going to terminal 87….and since 30 and 87 are “closed”…..then the 30 wire closes the jumper or boost….with a full 12 VDC.

THAT is how it works,  then later on, it hit Monaco.  OMG….if we would use CHASSIS voltage (hot….not ignition switched), we would have FULL TIME BIRD charging….remember the module decided WHEN to engage based on the condition of BOTH Banks.

NOW…you say that you have DUAL charging.  Simple.  No ignition on….no AC PLUGGED IN….NO GENNY ON.  Cover the solar or pull the charging wires.  IT GETS TRICKY…. Pull the positive on the house….after you turn OFF DISCONNECT….NOW measure to ground….each side of the solenoid. One is ZERO.  HOUSE.  The other is 12.7 or so….the Chassis….now you know.  Hook back up the house bank….turn on the disconnect….plug in to shore….you will see a higher voltage on the house.  13.1 to over 14.x. That means the house is charging….but the “ignition signal is or should be ZERO on the Diesel module (ignition off’.  That is normal. Unplug AC…..measure….still 12.7 or so on each side.  Now start the engine…wait 5 minutes or so.  Remeasure….should be 13.7 - 14.0 or so…chassis is chargine….voltage the SAME ON BOTH SIDES.

Again….folks have different outlooks and different ways of accomplishing things,  if YOUR system is working as above….it is fine,  I have NO IDEA how soemone rewired it.  Likewise, you said the stsrting current was fine, with, as they should be, BOTH BANKS ON.  In my opinion….no need to make an emergency call to “Ghost Busters”.  It ain’t BROKE….  You may have one of the “gee, how’d we mess up”…many folks might…but they don’t have the “Victron”.  So nothing to alert them.

If you could get enough 2002 owners to test…..how many OK’s vs “DAD GUM….it did start?”  NO IDEA…except Monaco acknowledged it happens…but not gonna fix as the WRONG STARTING PROTOCOL WAS USED.  That horse is hurting….but it seems to be reviving….

NOW…..NEXT UP….to comment on Jim’s Blue Seas suggestion.  The cheap simple Blue Seas ACR works great.  It is reliable….it is robust….it has good tech supoort.  BUT…as always….understand the CONS.

First….your up front Boost switch is now worthless.  ME, I would just say…OK.  If I needed a boost, get out….go to the ML-ACR…set it to manual…..after no longer needed….back to AUTO.  BUT of yow want a full “fledged” boost and remote control, then you run a 4 or 5 wire loom or cable from the ML-ACR and drive on.  I could.  I am happy the way my Intellitec BIRD works….I will not fix what ain’t broke.  But, we have a LOT of fans.  Now, if a solenoid or charging module goes bad….I make a Fix VS Replace financial decision and factor in the DIY labor….I have done way worse and way more complicated….I Just choose NOT TO DISCOVER AMERICA…again.

One FINAL comment.  All it would take to give you a complete DUAL CHARGE or BIRD SYSTEM.  Pull the IGNITION wire.  Run a wire from the HOT Chassis Bank Stud….(you can use the chassis stud on the solenoid).  Hook it up to IGNITION.  You have the SAME system that Monaco started to install later on and the EXACT configuration as the 2008 Camelots and up.  

Really Simple….but this rascal is so complex….that the simple change overwhelms some….and they are concerned….

That’s it.  I’d run my test….charging, as it should…as wired….then it ain’t broke….want a REAL BIRD system….swap wires.  Good Luck….

[tmw188]

Thank you Tom for your time and detailed explanation and others who contributed. For the time being I’m going to leave as is and be sure I don’t accidentally leave the Chassis battery off. I would still like to see what others that still have the OE set up looks like. 

[jacwjames]

Tom

Todd did do some wire tracing and I talked to him on the phone.  I believe he does have a wire running from the ignition to the chassis stud of the solenoid relay so he is getting charging as you describe. 

The boost relay is a 200 amp continuous duty type https://www.amazon.com/RODGERS-586-902-CONTACTOR-SPST-NO-BRACKET/dp/B00DE3HY4K/ref=sr_1_3?crid=MLIDCRICHWIH&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ZKCXl5KwbpH1c0a884k2I0zi0PqvQY564KBnJJk5BuDNT_FbaqAJ9XeQnZr1On-8G4lFGI4Te2TUIzAoA8XkmTPe3suldDlg2qtmpiiX_vRTmBqd_No7lTj8W5lkpKdTW4i34wlvUyuoa-8unje3nLv8jfRXAbcebt4pIBgUPtiQLTVRa8HTDhKG9LXd1vCT9PkAollaF0Q8mda0VGhqQFfMqk8hbDR7_sN7q5nWwew.oUdshW_3Qb5WFqbeOZhF5FtSRNBY-dc60xry3Tm4MOA&dib_tag=se&keywords=586-902&qid=1714438829&sprefix=586-902%2Caps%2C305&sr=8-3

[tmw188]

Yes from above here is the one I have.

[jacwjames]

16 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

One FINAL comment.  All it would take to give you a complete DUAL CHARGE or BIRD SYSTEM.  Pull the IGNITION wire.  Run a wire from the HOT Chassis Bank Stud….(you can use the chassis stud on the solenoid).  Hook it up to IGNITION.  You have the SAME system that Monaco started to install later on and the EXACT configuration as the 2008 Camelots and up.  

Really Simple….but this rascal is so complex….that the simple change overwhelms some….and they are concerned….

That’s it.  I’d run my test….charging, as it should…as wired….then it ain’t broke….want a REAL BIRD system….swap wires.  Good Luck….

Prior to this post I was convinces that the Lambert 415 had failed and the previous owner improvised a solution.

After reading your post and talking to Todd I'm thinking that the changes that were made did exactly as you describe.   He now has a full BIRD system with the only caveat is that the generator sense wire has been disconnected.

[Tom Cherry]

48 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Prior to this post I was convinces that the Lambert 415 had failed and the previous owner improvised a solution.

After reading your post and talking to Todd I'm thinking that the changes that were made did exactly as you describe.   He now has a full BIRD system with the only caveat is that the generator sense wire has been disconnected.

Jim,

Todd and I have been exchanging PM more that a politician and his campaign manager.  The GIST...

Todd has the OEM Intellitec Module.  00-00365-00.  I can NOT find any details on it.  He does NOT, I think, have a FULL BIRD system...  The prints are hard to come by....and Monaco did a lousy JOB.  

The Genny sense was not used....or maybe someone pulled it off.  It was a "UH-OH" rethink or maybe the later BIRD Modules didn't need it.  The ones that were used circa 08 did NOT need it.  There were some later Windsors, 2004 for sure as Richard (Dr4Film) sent me his schematic and It was in use, I think then.  BUT, that Module MAY have been a revised one.  There appears to be at least 5 or more "REVS" of the Diesel2.  ONE of them actually changed the software program...Thanks to Frank's research.  They ALL have the IGNITION...  but that was for consistency.

OK....more than you want to KNOW.  The original one like TODD has was only a RUNNING Bird System and did NOT charge the Chassis when parked and ON AC.  BUT, the later models had a timer in them....and then the "IGNITION" terminal was bypassed after maybe 2 minutes or so..  THEN, the Module closed and started charging the Chassis.  SO, my approach to change the INPUT might not work.

The NEXT THING...  The OUTPUT signal.  or the RELAY contact. Once Monaco and Intellitec switched to the Intellitec Big Boy, then the voltage to the Coil was pulsed.  Mine is pulsed and will read 3 - 4 or so.  THAT is correct....100% on that....as I got that from several conversations with the ORIGINAL Intellitec Support guy, who passed away and was NOT replaced. 

Frank know the Dynasty system from head to tails. The Proprietary #6 board on them send out a PULSED 8 or so VDC signal.  Therefore the coil is getting twice the current as mine.  That makes them run HOT....too HOT to wrap your hand around....it will BURN.  That is NORMAL.  Design questions on that....call Intellitec.  Frank and I only KNOW how it works and the differences....but why Intellitec did it that way....  GOD ONLY KNOWS.  Mine does NOT make a LOUD HUM (as in a Pulsed signal...as the voltage is lower)... the Dynasties DO...that is a Troubleshooting assist.

OK....having said all that.  I plan to set up a simple grid so Todd can test his system.  ODDS ARE...it will work like he says or thinks.

BUT...WHY ALL THE NEED.  Because...  The Newer Intellitec Diesel2 are a Pulsed 3 - 4 VDC Output.  IF his older one is a constant 3 - 4 VDC....and his White Rogers works....GREAT.  BUT, if his older one is a full 12 VDC, NON PULSED....then if he replaced it....with the newer model....they don't make the older ones any more.  PROBLEMATICO...  He would have to ALSO replace the White Rogers with a Intellitec Big Boy (200 Amp).  NOW....will the OEM White Rogers WORK with a low (3 - 4 VDC Pulsed coil voltage)..... I HAVEN'T a clue.  Maybe White Rogers knows....maybe it is in the Tech Spec.  I don't have that.

SO....before Todd makes any changes.....he or WE as in I am helping him, needs to know what is happening NOW and then make the call.  IF he needed to replace the OLD Diese2....maybe $100.  Then throw in the $250 for the Big Boy.

AT THAT POINT....I totally agree with your former post.....ML-ACR TIME.  

OK...I spent a LOT of time this morning on the phone with Frank.  We concluded and he confirmed....  You CAN MAKE the ML-ACR WITH REMOTE Package WORK....without RUNNING an additional wires.  It will NOT BE FULL FUNCTION....but you can use the BOOST and turn it ON AND OFF using the Blue Seas supplied switch.  It takes only TWO WIRES from the ML-ACR to the new, up front switch.  The second wire is the LED or TELL ME THE MODE light.  The switch will switch...

Hope this helps

[tmw188]

I’m in the middle of cleaning up my house battery tray so I can reinstall the batteries. I will confirm charging is active while motor is running and on gen.