Electrical Issue

[LJPierce_ELY]

4 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Thanks to WaterSkier_1 and Dr. Frank and Richard and all those that chimed in.  As I SAID, I can offer some theories but, as Dr. Frank says, we are MORE familiar with our own rigs....  So HERE GOES.....

The Print was the KEY.  Thanks to WaterSkier_1.  The Windsor matches, sort of, the way that Monaco did the 2008 Dynasties.....except they have TWO, I think, Inverters. The Trace is different than what we Magnum folks expect to see and the Subpanel complicates it. BUT, the PRINT resolves in my mind, what happened.

The ISSUE WAS, I think, the IOTA. The first clue was the "30" amp light. When the Intellitec EMS did not read 230 VAC between Line 1 and Line 2, then it defaults to 30 amp service as it assumes, and rightly so, that there is NOT two sides of 50 Amp service....Line 1 (Black) and Line 2 (Red). The IOTA had dropped a LEG or a Line. Doesn't matter WHICH, it only had ONE 115 VAC service.....so that Intellitec EMS worked.

NOW....That explains a LOT. If you look at the print that WaterSkier_1 supplied, then the TWO Breakers on the Main Panel (the Intellitec) NOW make sense. The Trace requires TWO separate INPUT AC inputs....which is what the Magnums require on the Dynasties....  

Look at the print again. There are TWO OUTPUTS to the Subpanel. That Subpanel, I THINK, is internally divided....

The Inverter 1 input powers Breakers 1 - 4.  The Inverter 2 Input powers Breakers 5 - 7...as there is NO Breaker 8.  The original symptoms were that the FRONT GFCI and the Microwave were out. SO, when the IOTA took out Line 2....which then became Inverter 2, that killed that.

Replace the IOTA with a good ATS and BINGO....all is well. NOW, at least to me, it makes sense.  I also learned a LOT about the Subpanels used in the older MH and see why Monaco switched to Magnums.....for the lower end. They are either 2000 Watt or 2800 Watt (with a Res Refer).  Dr. Frank's TWO Magnums have TWO incoming circuits....and then TWO outgoing. What makes his really UNIQUE is that there the Inverted power is one one side of the subpanel and the NON Inverter (goes dead when on Inverting) circuit are NOT battery powered.....

OK....this, I think, sums it up....but if anyone has any other pertinent comments....or corrections....please chime in.

NOW>>>>We Moderators always try to teach or at least make sure that folks learn and what is posted is correct.

I AM SUMMING UP A "SUGGESTED" To DO list for LJPierce_ELY.....the original poster.

You have, I think, learned a lot.....BUT, if you are a full timer and 100% DEPENDENT on your MH as your HOME....then, you need to be aware and, when convenient, address the following....

1. Consider a Surge Suppressor (HW50C) as UPSTREAM Protection for your NEW ATS....as well as all the electronics and appliances on board. IF you have a bad pedestal or a circuit problem and LOSE the Neutral or have a FLOATING NEUTRAL (Google that), then you can do several THOU$AND$ of $$ Damage.  We have had folks that hit $15K....they lost all the electric appliances....  THE HW50C protects you from that plus it also takes care and protects you from high and low voltages and such. IT protects the MH's Life's Blood....the POWER. I can NOT overemphasize this.

2. Purchase a SPARE Square D GFCI breaker and have it on hand. These go bad....or at least Fred White and many others had issues with them. You need to get the MODEL number off the one in use....

3. Plan a Preventative Maintenance session and TIGHTEN ALL THE LUGS on the Main Panel and the Subpanel.  Vibration from driving is your enemy. Loose connection will heat up and potentially cause a fire. This is common sense....you will be FINE for the next 5 years or so....AFTER YOU DO THIS...

4. If you did NOT USE LOCTITE GREEN on the lugs on the new ATS, then you will need to open it up and RETIGHTEN in 3 - 6 months.....THIS TIME USE LOCTITE as they will vibrate loose.  This is NOT the fault of any ATS, it is just the fact that when you drive, the ATS's screws will come loose.  ONCE RETIGHTENED WITH LOCTITE GREEN ON THEM, they should be good for a LONG TIME....  I have over 10 years and 50K on mine....with the Loctite and STILL TIGHT....but I check them...

5. When you do the PM on the Brown EMS Panel, do the reset to make sure it is "healthy"

6. Order a spare Camco plug and the Dow potting (sealing) compound. At the age of your plug, you will, I predict, eventually need it. MANY folks carry such....

OK.....GOT ALL THAT....now, here is ONE THING that we all learned at the GATHERING....

On the 5 BUTTON AC/Heat Thermostat, it is BETTER to use the MODE button and turn OFF each zone, rather than the slide switch at the bottom. These switches go out....so the less you use the slide switch, the better...

GOOD LUCK....

Tom, I will keep this as a to do. Many thanks for the suggestions.

Although the coach is not being used full time for the family, I am using it as full time housing for me since I'm in another state working away from home for possibly the next few years. So your suggestions are not falling on deaf ears.

Thanks again to everyone for their knowledge and assistance.

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

Remember the IOTA switched the neutral, not the two 120 vac lines.  Chuck B 2004 Windsor

[Tom Cherry]

16 hours ago, Chuck B said:

Remember the IOTA switched the neutral, not the two 120 vac lines.  Chuck B 2004 Windsor

Chuck,

A MOOT point, but I thought the IOTA-50R had two DPDT relays or solenoids. One for HOT and one for Neutral.

Check the photo and see if that is correct.

[Dr4Film]

Possibly what Chuck had meant to say was that the HOT and Neutral may not switch at the same identical instant allowing the neutral to switch microseconds later which may cause problems with electrical devices.

The ESCO LPTBRD has the relays normally engaged for shore power but when switching to generator it has a neutral safety switch built in such that if the neutral isn't recognized it won't allow the hot legs to connect.

[Martinvz]

Intellitec 760 follow-up

Going back to the earlier responses in the thread and the issue I was having with the Intellitec 760 EMS. I am happy to say that I have the new controller installed (with the upgrade kit). Install was easy but needs more than 2 hands to fight the stiff wiring.

The end result is that everything seems to be working again, including both A/Cs running at the same time off the 50A in the campground. It has solved some other issues I have noticed and this is one Happy Camper.

Thanks for the input.

For those interested, I am attaching the Model 700 install instructions which also includes some troubleshooting guides. The model 760 installation page is a brief one page and is not really very meaningful.

Also mentioned are the relays and if these are normally open or closed.  From my understanding, the A/C relays are normally closed so that power is provided to the AC units. These are turned on and off by the thermostat (and not the EMS). There is an RJ45 cable to the from A/C and an additional one from the front to the rear A/C.

 

Model 700 Install - 53-00894-000.pdf

[Dr4Film]

13 hours ago, Martinvz said:

Also mentioned are the relays and if these are normally open or closed.  From my understanding, the A/C relays are normally closed so that power is provided to the AC units. These are turned on and off by the thermostat (and not the EMS). There is an RJ45 cable to the from A/C and an additional one from the front to the rear A/C.

Martin,

The thermostat AFAIK is NOT connected to the Intellitec Control Board as Monaco chose not to control the AC's by using 12 VDC which is what the AC Thermostat uses for power. Monaco chose to use the 120 VAC relays on the control board to shed the AC's off and on. Hence the reason that they fail prematurely as they cannot handle the amp load which the AC draws through the relay.

I guess you are saying that the two Intellitec Relays for the front and rear AC's are NC until the control board decides to shed the device. To me that would make common sense and it would be far better if they did that with all four relays. That way the coils are not energized ALL the time until which time they need to be shed and the coil then opens the relay.

If the coils are powered ALL the time to keep them closed that to me seems like a waste of power and energy plus it is also a reason for failure.

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

FWIW, the flat telephone type ribbon cable that is used for a data cable is subject to a lot of crosstalk from such devices a florescent light ballasts.  I rewired my coach using 4 wire twisted cable.  That removed 99% of all my problems.  

Chuck B 2004 Windsor

[Ivylog]

Twisted wires do help to reject outside interference. Pretty sure, unlike 4 wire phone cables, the AC control cables reverse the wires, end to end.

[Mel S - '96 Safari]

On 8/20/2021 at 6:33 AM, Ivylog said:

Twisted wires do help to reject outside interference. Pretty sure, unlike 4 wire phone cables, the AC control cables reverse the wires, end to end.

When in doubt replace 4 wire or flat phone cables or flat with Cat5 ethernet cable:

Edited August 21, 2021 by Mel S - '96 Safari