Electrical Issue

[LJPierce_ELY]

Whether this belongs in another forum, I'll let you decide.

I have a 2003 Windsor that I bought a couple years ago.

I'm currently using it full-time for work purposes away from home and I have an interesting electrical issue that cropped up today.

First, a little background. I've been having electric issues for some time. The generator used to be able to power everything, but now it runs and doesn't power anything at all. I'm guessing it's something to do with the IOTA ATS. Haven't had the money to replace that although I know it's bad. It's on my to do list.

Tonight, I was attempting to use the Sharp Convection/Microwave in Convection mode to cook my chow. It ran for approx. 30 seconds then died. It seems to have taken all the electric sockets on the curbside slide, out. Lights work on that side but that's it.  Also, it seems to have shut down the rear roof A/C but the front roof A/C is still working. Further, the panel showing the AC power is dark. The DC power is working. (SEE PIC. THE ONE UP TOP IS THE AC DISPLAY and although is seems to read 119.9, it is dark.) The plugs in front above the driver, where I have a DVD player and a flatscreen LED TV mounted are also inoperative. However, all the plugs on the road side slide out are working.

I have checked all breakers in the bedroom. Each breaker has been cycled OFF and back ON. I also pulled each of the various DC fuses next to the breaker boxes, and found none blown.

I have tried to find a GFCI outlet somewhere but there isn't one anywhere that I can find.

I have disconnected shore power, turned off the inverter, and turned off the battery switches, then turned everything back on in reverse. No joy.

I can hear a high frequency noise from the inverter so that seems to be working although I will admit the possibility that this means nothing.

I have cycled the power switch by the front door several times. Things pop off and on so I don't think that's it.

The shore power breakers at the pedestal have been checked and cycled as well. No effect.

I am at a loss and have taken this about as far as my detective skills allow me.

I've tried to be as descriptive as I possibly can but might have missed something.

Ideas? Solutions? I'll entertain just about any reasonable solution except arson. I need to live in it for the next few years.

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by LJPierce_ELY

[Rikadoo]

I always like to start at the source, i would start at the transfere switch. Unplug ALL shore power then remove the cover to the transfere switch an tighten all the screw connectors where the wires come into it. When i did that to my 2003 HR (i bought used 2years ago) i found all 3 ground leads “loose”  i used just a regular inch lb torque wrench whith a blade bit an tightend to 45 inch lbs (1 of the 3 was scarry loose, 1/2 turn) 

Then i would remove the breaker panel an check all the connections for tight or melted or ? At that point your going to need a volt ohm meter, again with power off an un plugged measure the resistance of the breakers… If all that appears ok, i would reinstall all the panels and covers then i would suggest a electrician to come and test for the next step

[LJPierce_ELY]

I'll give that a looksee when I get home from work tonight. It really wouldn't surprise me one bit to find that the ATS is the culprit but for some reason I'm thinking it's something else. I still have power to the front A/C and the rear of the coach plugs all work. You might be on the right track with a possibly faulty circuit breaker, or maybe something else related to that.

Either way, I'll check those terminal screws in the ATS tonight.

[David Pratt]

His problem is he still has the IOTA transfer Switch that was recalled because it was a piece of JUNK and has caused the loss of many Motor Coaches to Fire when the switch fails.

The Switch has failed, SIMPLE TO CHECK, Remove the cover of the switch and check to see if you have voltage from the pedestal or the generator going in and then check the voltage coming out to the panel.

There has been a lot of info posted on the IOTA Transfer switch and the problem with it and the damage it has caused. Get rid of it NOW before something serious does happen.

All the Maintenance suggestion of tighten terminals and wires will not stop the IOTA Transfer Switch from failing. It is not a matter of will it fail, but just a matter of when!

It is an expense you should not put off.

[jacwjames]

Checking the transfer switch is a good idea but it almost sounds like it is on the inverter side.

I recently had a problem and ended up removing all the electrical panels in the bedroom and the inverter trying to figure out what was wrong, it ended up being one bad circuit going to ground causing the generator to die.  Once I bypassed the circuit all seems to be fine.  I have a better understanding of the entire electrical system after having to troubleshoot and fix the problem. 

If your 2003 Windsor is similar to my 2002 Windsor the inverter has L1 & L2 lines feeding it from the main panel.  My inverter is a RV2012 and has internal transfer switches that passes power when hooked to shore power or running off generator.  There are then 2 lines feeding the inverter subpanel, which will be powered by shore, generator, or inverter if not plugged in.  I would get a meter and start checking power in the inverter subpanel and see if you have 120 volt power coming into the panel on the L1 or L2 circuit. 

One thing that I found on the subpanel that you need to keep in mind is that the grouping of the breakers does not signify how they are powered.  I was mistaken into thinking that the grouping was top and bottom.  Instead the LI powers every other breaker and the L2 powers the others.  The only way to tell is to pull he breakers and look at the buss bar and see how the breaker attach to each. 

During my troubleshooting I actually ohmed the L1 and L2 side of the connections and found the one of them ohmed 259 ohms.  I first called the Xantrex tech support and that person said my inverter was bad, probably and internal transfer switch was bad, that is why I removed it.  Xantrex has an authorized repair facility ~200 miles from me so I thought I'd give them a call. Inverter Sales and Service 1-615-285-0611.  Talked to a repair tech there and he said the 259 ohms was GOOD!!!.  He suggested I reinstall the inverter but bypass it by connecting the two in/out lines together.  I then could start the generator and identify which circuit was causing it to cut out.  Fixed the circuit and connected the inverter back and all is good.  Installed a new 120 volt feed to that circuit and got all the outlets back working. 

The one circuit that was bad in my case was the one that fed the bathroom and bedroom outlets.  Not sure but I suspect that it may have been mouse problems in the ceiling.  Just something to consider.  You will have to do the same type of troubleshooting exercise to find your problem.

 

 

 

[Guest Ray Davis]

As warned already,   replace the IOTA.   You should go ahead and check the wires & connections in the IOTA, it might save a fire tonight.

I have an 03 Windsor too. Mine had a similar problem that I wrestled with for a long time.  The receptacles along the pass side and front were dead, I don't think  it affected my A/C though.   BTW, those receptacles are fed by a GFCI breaker in the bedroom.   What I found after much searching was the power goes from the breaker all the way up front to the receptacle behind the TV first,  there is a junction inside that receptacle box and power then travels rear ward to the kitchen slide etc.  My problem was inside that receptacle behind the TV,  a plastic twist connector was loose.

I doubt this is your problem but if it is,  I hope it may possibly save you a lot of grief.

Good luck & change the IOTA

 

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Ray Davis

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

This ugly IOTA PTS raises its head again.  It does at least once a time each month.  I apologize for being very blunt again, but it is for your safety, a life saving warning.  The problem with the IOTA is that it switches the neutral wire instead of the two 120 vac wires.  Any 120 vac device running at that time takes a hit.  That hit might destroy that device.  If you do not have the money to replace it, turn off any power coming into the coach!!!  Your life as well as any others that live in the coach are at risk!!!  

Another thing I want to mention is that not everyone on the group understands how to work with and around 120 vac.  One mistake can send a person to the promise land.  I would not want to be the person that caused that.  Chuck B 2004 Windsor

[ncjimgr]

One other thing you could check are the breakers in the inverter. There are two on my Magnum inverter. If one or the other trips, it will shut down several AC circuits in the coach. To reset one that has popped out, just push it in. This may be an easy "fix" if the breaker in the inverter just popped!

JimG
2006 Camelot

[Steve P]

Long shot here... is it possible that either L1 or L2 is disconnected at/to the power pedestal?  I'm not an electrician, but my power/surge protector would give me a clear indication.   If I didn't have one, I'd either borrow one or call the park manager to check the pedestal.   Of course, the OP didn't actually say he is at a park...

[Dr4Film]

I still don't understand how anyone who has a coach with an IOTA Transfer Switch STILL has not replaced it.

Just make sure you are covered well with plenty of insurance, have your smoke & fire alarms working correctly plus be able to use the rear escape window when needed.

These coaches burn completely to the frame in less than 5 minutes.

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

Same here for me.  I think that many of our fellow Monoceros RV friends do not monitor this group.  They show up after they have a issue they cannot resolve.  Is there a way that the group moderators can sent out a broadcast email to all who use this group to warn them?  Chuck B 2004 Windsor

[LJPierce_ELY]

Simple answer on the IOTA, lack of funds. It is in my plan to replace it ASAP once I get caught up on bills. I'm not retired.

I am currently at an RV park. Power from pedestal is working otherwise my A/Cs wouldn't be running..

This power issue seems like a blown something, or couple of something's. I'll take a look at the inverter again. Last night when I attempted to reset it, I only saw the one pushbutton breaker on the front of it. There are more? Where are they? Do I have to disassemble?

Thanks for the ideas so far.

 

[David Pratt]

There has been megabytes of discussions about the POS IOTA Transfer Switch on all of the different Groups, Forums etc. ever since the recall came out and ALSO the testimonials of owners who have had issues and caught them before a catastrophe occurred or after they lost their coach to a fire from the failed IOTA TS.

If someone owns a coach that still has the IOTA TS and does not want to budget the couple of hundred dollars it will take to get rid of it and be safe, then shame on them, they are on a FOOLS ERRAND to think Tragedy may not strike them.

All the posting and warnings will not change the thinking. The OP stateD that he has the POS but does not have the budget to replace it. Nothing more needs to be said.

I hope the advice that has been shared in this discussion may lead to a solution for the OP.

YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER, BUT YOU CANNOT MAKE HIM DRINK!

[waterskier_1]

The microwave circuit runs through the inverter, even when on Shore Power.  Check that you have power to the inverter, that the inverter input ands output circuit breakers are good.  If you have power to the inverter, check that you have power out of it.  Since you have power in the coach to power the A/Cs,  the transfer switch is passing power.  If you can't afford to replace it, simply remove it. Wire the shore power directly, tape up and secure the generator wires.  You won't have the ability to use the generator, but you'll be safe while using shore power. 

[LJPierce_ELY]

Ok. That is helpful. Also answers one of my questions on that damn IOTA. So I can wire shore power through and temporarily cut out the Genny. Seems much safer than leaving that ATS wired in. I'll try and get to that this weekend.

As for the inverter, I didn't know about it dividing into two outputs until reading on here. 

[Dr4Film]

Don't forget to unplug from shore power FIRST before opening up the transfer switch to perform the bypass.

That is 6 gauge wire so use copper clamps with lots of electrical tape to isolate each connection. Do not use wire nuts.

https://tinyurl.com/f5meuwur

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

13 hours ago, LJPierce_ELY said:

Whether this belongs in another forum, I'll let you decide.

I have a 2003 Windsor that I bought a couple years ago.

I'm currently using it full-time for work purposes away from home and I have an interesting electrical issue that cropped up today.

First, a little background. I've been having electric issues for some time. The generator used to be able to power everything, but now it runs and doesn't power anything at all. I'm guessing it's something to do with the IOTA ATS. Haven't had the money to replace that although I know it's bad. It's on my to do list.

Tonight, I was attempting to use the Sharp Convection/Microwave in Convection mode to cook my chow. It ran for approx. 30 seconds then died. It seems to have taken all the electric sockets on the curbside slide, out. Lights work on that side but that's it.  Also, it seems to have shut down the rear roof A/C but the front roof A/C is still working. Further, the panel showing the AC power is dark. The DC power is working. (SEE PIC. THE ONE UP TOP IS THE AC DISPLAY and although is seems to read 119.9, it is dark.) The plugs in front above the driver, where I have a DVD player and a flatscreen LED TV mounted are also inoperative. However, all the plugs on the road side slide out are working.

I have checked all breakers in the bedroom. Each breaker has been cycled OFF and back ON. I also pulled each of the various DC fuses next to the breaker boxes, and found none blown.

I have tried to find a GFCI outlet somewhere but there isn't one anywhere that I can find.

I have disconnected shore power, turned off the inverter, and turned off the battery switches, then turned everything back on in reverse. No joy.

I can hear a high frequency noise from the inverter so that seems to be working although I will admit the possibility that this means nothing.

I have cycled the power switch by the front door several times. Things pop off and on so I don't think that's it.

The shore power breakers at the pedestal have been checked and cycled as well. No effect.

I am at a loss and have taken this about as far as my detective skills allow me.

I've tried to be as descriptive as I possibly can but might have missed something.

Ideas? Solutions? I'll entertain just about any reasonable solution except arson. I need to live in it for the next few years.

Thanks in advance.

 

 

If not already covered, I’d suggest you first check the circuit breaker on the Gen Set.

[LJPierce_ELY]

Got back to the coach and removed the panel on the front of the inverter. No breakers inside. Just wiring and terminals. All breakers within the coach were cycled again, including the L1 and L2 breakers for the inverter. I cycled them all. No change. My Smart EMS is now showing as indicated, whereas before I cycled the breakers the led next to 50amp was lit and the middle display that now reads 21, was dark. I also included a pic of the inverter I have installed.

Another reply said to check the generator breaker and although it was found tripped or off, turning it on didn't solve anything.

I still have most of my lighting and the TV as well as all the AC plugs in the rear of the coach are working as are the roadside plugs and front Air Conditioner. Rear Air Conditioner is inop as is the water heater.

I haven't pulled the front TV out because it's a total B word to do it but I understand from another reply, that it's a center of where the electrics on the curb side come together.

Any other suggestions?

 

 

[Dr4Film]

According to the Intellitec EMS Display you are using 30 amp shore power NOT 50 amp shore power. The only time you have any amp display is when either running your generator or hooked to shore power LESS than 50 amp, such as 30 amp, 20 amp or 15 amp.

[LJPierce_ELY]

I saw that. Problem is, I am hooked up to 50 amp and prior to my mucking around with the breakers, the LED next to 50 amp was lit yet the large digital display in the middle was dark. I played around with the breakers again, along with everything else including the inverter, and now that display is back to reading 50amp service, middle display is dark, and everything on the right is lit up as well.

I opened up the cabinet up front where the TV is installed. Everything looks OK, messed around with as many of the electrical wires that I could lay my hands on, everything seemed tight.

I was hoping that the AC outlet in there was a GFCI type but it wasn't. On that subject, where in the motorhome is one of those GFC outlets? I have looked everywhere and either there isn't one, or if there is, it's hidden so well that I just can't find it.

As has been pointed out, ad nauseum, I know the IOTA ATS is a POS and needs to be replaced most Ricky-Tick. To that end, I can probably do it this weekend, if I can pick up a replacement ATS at Camping World. Would replacement of said POS ATS fix this most distressing problem? I have my doubts other than making the coach safer from becoming an Arson Special.

Absent finding anything else wrong, I am beginning to think that L1 or L2 on the inverter has given up the Ghost. I am fooling around in a realm that I admit I am not fully knowledgeable about.

Edited August 4, 2021 by LJPierce_ELY

[Dr4Film]

9 hours ago, LJPierce_ELY said:

I saw that. Problem is, I am hooked up to 50 amp and prior to my mucking around with the breakers, the LED next to 50 amp was lit yet the large digital display in the middle was dark. I played around with the breakers again, along with everything else including the inverter, and now that display is back to reading 50amp service, middle display is dark, and everything on the right is lit up as well.

As stated previously when hooked to 50 amp shore power there will be NO amp's displayed, the middle display will be dark.

I would start with the transfer switch and if that doesn't solve the problem then move on to the Inverter which is FAR more expensive than the transfer switch.

Camping World will charge you an arm & leg for the ESCO Transfer Switch. Google the part for the best price. Most recent pricing has it around $180.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Dr4Film

[LJPierce_ELY]

I did not see that.

[ncjimgr]

If your water heater and rear A/C unit is out (which are two items on the EMS system) I would look at the Intellitec board. I had my front A/C go out recently and the EMS display showed everything as OK, all lights green. When I removed the board, I could see the relay for the A/C burned on the circuit board. This has happened to me before as well. I called M & M Electronics (419-965-2662) and spoke with Chris. He confirmed that the board could be bad even though the lights on the display panel are all lighted. I ordered a replacement from them. Once installed, everything was OK. I was told that a 15KW A/C unit is at the high end of the amperage those boards can handle (15 amp) and they will burn out if pushed beyond those limits.

It is possible you have two burned relays, one for the A/C and one for the water heater. Worth pulling the board out and looking at the underside to see if there are any burned traces on the board. It will be pretty obvious!

JimG
2006 Camelot

[LJPierce_ELY]

Where is the board located? Backside of the EMS display?

Would this also affect the AC plugs on the curb side?

[Tom Cherry]

COUPLE OF THINGS....some I KNOW.....for a FACT....and some that I suspect...

First...  disconnect the shore power. TRIP OFF the Circuit breaker on the Genny (on the Genny's console). If you have a solar panel, then disconnect or the simplest is to put a quilt or tarp or cover on it.

Remove the cover (brown?) on your Intellitec Main Circuit Breaker Panel. Look on the RIGHT side. There is a printed circuit board. There are maybe 3 pigtails that you can easily pull off. There will be a small mini fuse.  Memory says 5 amps....but it may be lower like 3 but NOT more than 10.  This is the BRAIN for your Intellitec system. One you pull that....let it sit for a minute. There are TIMES that you get some stray currents and it messes up the "chip's clock". Powering down and doing a restart often fixes it. You have a "strange" reading on your system....and I will comment on that...

IMPORTANT....NOW, you can see all the terminal connections for the power. TIGHTEN EVERY LUG or TERMINAL in the panel. That includes the GROUNDS, the NEUTRAL (WHITE) and the Leads to EACH BREAKER and the MAIN BREAKER.  Look for evidence of oxidation or discoloration. If there is ANY, then any qualified electrician can help you.....

BTW, memory, and we lost our Windsor expert, says that you have GFCI Breakers in the Main Panel....and NOT a receptical. I will leave it to the Winsdor experts to pop in here.....NOW for the theory and ALSO the final troubleshooting steps....

The Intellitec monitors the Voltage as well as the "mode" of the Genny. I forget exactly HOW this works, but here is the original logic.

When you plug into a 30 amp source (pedestal) it is supposed to be only one side of a 220 VAC service. YES, we do NOT use 230 VAC....but when there is a 50 Amp Dual Pole breaker, you have 50 amps of power on Line 1 as well as Line 2....or in effect a total of 100 amps of service.

When you plug into a properly wired 30 amp circuit, then you only have Line 1....there is NO Line 2. There will only be 30 amps of service.

The Intellitec board reads Line 1 and Line 1. IF there is 230 VAC, then IT KNOWS....you have 50 amp service. If you only have 30 amps, there is NO voltage between Line 1 and Line 2.  SO, then the 30 amp light will come on. it is up to YOU, the owner to determine if it is a 20 amp or 30 amp service and push the button to toggle. The DEFAULT IS 30 as that is what will be the situation 99% of the time.

OK>>>>GOT ALL THAT?  NOW....when the Genny is running, there is a signal that goes to the Intellitec panel. GENNY ON means that you are SUPPOSED to have enough power NOT TO OVERLOAD. BUT, enterprising folks that plug in heaters don't know that. Bottom line, you only have 35 amps (memory) on Line 1 and Line 2. The 8KW Onan's are protected that way. NOW, that may be 30, again memory. BUT, it is NOT 230 VAC. It is TWO lines of 30 (35?). 

IF you have an IOTA, then YES, you can, assuming you have the skill set, BYPASS it....and put jumpers from the SHORE to the LOAD (Circuit Breaker) side. Technically, you can use a #10 wire for that....if you look at the internal wiring....the leads to the relays are smaller. BUT>>>>READ ON....DO NOT MESS WITH THE INTELLITEC.....do NOT reconnect....do a simple trouble shooting of the Inverter....it is in your manual.  I am NOT convinced that you need to do that.....HERE IS THE REST of the story..

Your TRACE is wired like the Magnums, which most folks have. However, it does NOT (I pulled your manual) have the TWO pin style EXTERNAL 20 Amp Breakers. BUT....on page 16 or so of the manual, there is a NOTE. There is an INTERNAL FUSE....it is a SLOW BLOW. Trace says there is a SPARE ONE inside the unit.  WITH THE POWER OFF....and the INVERTER Circuit Breaker (30 Amp) OFF.....

I would change out that fuse.  You can buy another one or call trace and get a part number.

THAT MAY be the issue....or may not. At least you have a GOOD fuse in place....

OK....now start to put things back together....carefully....

Reconnect the pigtails to the INTELLITEC Board. Replace the Fuse. Then PLUG IN to shore.  IF you TRACE has a SNAP SWITCH, it should be OFF.  If it is push or spring loaded one....then turn it OFF after you have power.  Let it SIT...say a minute. The Trace will do a self diagnostics when you start it up by turning it on. Look at the lights and read the manual.

There COULD be one other ISSUE....  Your Trace inverter has gone bad. The NORMAL mode for the inverter is to "transfer" power internally when you are on SHORE. Magnum says that the main boards eventually fail. Might be the same for Trace. After you do all your testing, if you still have issues, you COULD bypass the IOTA as I commented on. IF that does NOT cure it, assuming all the circuit breakers are OK, then problem is in the TRACE..

One FINAL STRAW OF DESPERATION.....TRACE warns about INTEFERENCE.....read the last section. If you still have Fluorescent fixtures, open them up and remove the tubes....DOUBTFUL...but they have interfered with electronics before....