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Only 30 amps coming in and intellitec 750 clicking with GenSet power.


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I have very confusing symptoms.

VERY Hot outside, over 100, Both a/c were working. Front stopped cooling and think it went to heatpump all by itself as that was on the display. Also my panel only showed 30 amp service. I started my genset . it did not light up all the circuits. I went to the fuse panel and the circuit board was making a clicking sound at intervals. I then went back to shut down the genset and power from shore supply. all lighted up but still only 30 amp. Also the front a/c still does not work. it seems that I have no power to the a/c but is it the intellitec board that is clicking or other area. The lack of change over with the genset  is confusing. Many 110 circuits are operating but the panel lights do not display green indicators.

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Check that you have both legs coming in. Similar happened to me and it was my its. One relay (leg) was melted, so the ems thought it was 30a.

Could be pedestal, power cord( usually a connector), power cord reel or ITS. Could also be loose connections in main panel.

Hope it helps.

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9 minutes ago, JohnC3 said:

Check that you have both legs coming in. Similar happened to me and it was my its. One relay (leg) was melted, so the ems thought it was 30a.

Could be pedestal, power cord( usually a connector), power cord reel or ITS. Could also be loose connections in main panel.

Hope it helps.

sorry my mind is running crazy  with this, what is the ITS?

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Remove the cover plate from the circuit breaker panel and check that you have 110V at all the breakers. If a relay on the Intellitec board is not functioning (as mine did not then this may be the cause. Be careful and shut down the power to the coach before removing the panel. Then add the power back. 
you could make use as a temporary solution by re-routing the A/C via the washer circuit.  That will give you a chance to get a new board, assuming this is the cause.

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All sorts of good advice, but I would do this first.

Turn off Generator.  Trip or turn off the Genny at the breaker.  Turn OFF the main HOUSE Battery. No Shore Power.  Go into the bay where the ATS (I think the poster mistyped as ITS) or Automatic Transfer Switch is located.  What brand and model is it.  If it says IOTA 50 R, it is a fire and safety hazard.  Read this….IT IS DANGEROUS.

OK…NOT an IOTA, then do as the poster suggested.  Pull off the cover of the main panel. Tighten EVERY screw inside the panel.  Lift up or start to “unseat” or snap out each circuit breaker.  They should have resistance.  You lift up on the end with the screw terminal.  Pay attention to the AC breakers….make sure they are pushed up or lined up with all the other ones.  If one is down or not snapped in, then you need to snap it up and out and then reseat it.

Make sure every circuit breaker is ON….the EMS has a quirk that when someone turns OFF a circuit breaker, it gets confused….

While you are in there, there is a printed circuit board to the lower right.  There are 2 or 3 pigtails or connectors.  There is a fuse (3 A? Memory).  Remove the fuse.  Remove the fuse. Remove the connectors….wait a few minutes….then put the connectors back in place.  Reinstall the fuse.  This resets the Intellitec EMS.

Next….reinstall the cover.  Turn ON the House Battery switch. Go to the door and push the Battery Switch button on the top or push it in.

Go to the Thermostat.  Turn the switch on the bottom OFF.  Hold on the Mode and ZOne buttons….keep them pressed in.  Then turn on the Thermostat switch.  You will see FF.  You have just rebooted or reset the Thermostat….when it went “funky”, it got confused.

OK..now….I did not pick up if you had 50A service or 30Amp.  If you have 50A service, plug it in.  Let everything come on.  You can go up front and turn on the Genny circuit breaker.  All should work.  
 

NOW….if you still have troubles, report back and let us know what is happening.  I ASSUME you are not running any other high demand AC like washing clothes…..or if the AquaHot electric heater is on or if your batteries are in bulk charge and pulling 80 or so amps.  I would turn off the AquaHot to reduce the load….use your diesel later on.

NOW assuming all is working…what happened.  God probably does not know.  You had a “upset” in the EMS.  That was what was clicking.was.  The power, DC, not AC from the House Fuse panel may have had an interruption.  Sometimes a circuit breaker being tripped…or in a high resistance (not seated) will confuse the AC a control module….and it sends a funky signal….that upsets the Thermostat’s program.  It must be reset.

past that….hope it works….and then the real trouble shooting begins. Let’s be optimistic….all systems have been reset.  You now have tightened up all the connections….reset the EMS and the Thermostat.

Good Luck….let us know…

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I had the same issue. I rebooted the coach and it went away. Before digging into everything, try this simple procedure to see if it works. If it doesn't then you can start your search for the problem.

Kill all power to the coach. Switch both battery disconnects to the off position. Let set for 5 minutes. Switch battery disconnects back on and then turn shore power back on. It is just like re-booting a computer when it gets gremlins in it. My son whenever helping me with a computer problem always told me - " When in doubt...........Re-boot ". 🙂

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Just a quick suggestion. Cycle ALL breakers on the panel off one at a time and then back on. Push them to the off position hard.

The EMS clicking relay can be caused by one of the circuits it taps to sense you have 50 amp.

As suggested, taking the AC panel cover off and taking just a couple of voltage measurements should identify that you have both legs of the 50 amp coming in. 

 

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15 hours ago, brokenarrow1244 said:

I have very confusing symptoms.

VERY Hot outside, over 100, Both a/c were working. Front stopped cooling and think it went to heatpump all by itself as that was on the display. Also my panel only showed 30 amp service. I started my genset . it did not light up all the circuits. I went to the fuse panel and the circuit board was making a clicking sound at intervals. I then went back to shut down the genset and power from shore supply. all lighted up but still only 30 amp. Also the front a/c still does not work. it seems that I have no power to the a/c but is it the intellitec board that is clicking or other area. The lack of change over with the genset  is confusing. Many 110 circuits are operating but the panel lights do not display green indicators.

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Morning update.  The procedures and recommendations that I gave you is the best way to eliminate issues....as well as do the preventative maintenance on your electrical system.  

A member and I were talking about your issues last night.  If you do NOT have the manual for the EMS, I am attaching it. 

Making some assumptions here....you PROBABLY have an 8KW generator.  That is a 110 VAC not a 240 VAC.  You have to read and fully understand the system. Intellitec really meant it for 10KW or higher Gennys.  Those are 240 VAC unit....just like your Pedestal Power.  NOW, if you are not conversant with electricity.....a 50 Amp service actually has a 240 Amp feed.  There are TWO lines.  Line 1 and Line 2.  If you measure across them, you get 240 VAC.  YES....we do NOT use 240 VAC in the Motor Home, but we need 50 amps on each side.  So, in effect, we have TWO 50Amp circuits or a total of 100 Amps of power.  The Intellitec measures that.  When it sees 240 VAC, then all the numbers and such go off.....and it DOES do load shedding.  BUT, if the pedestal is a FAKE 50 Amps and the electrician cheated and put Line 1 and Line 2 on the SAME LEG....then we have a major problem. 

Getting HEAVY.  The THIRD line is the WHITE or the Neutral. On a proper 240 VAC service, the Neutral line only carries the DIFFERENCE of the two load.  So, if one line has 40 amps and the other has 30, then the Neutral has 10 Amps (40 - 10).  BUT, if it is a FAKE 50 Amps....and you only have Line 1....but it is connected to BOTH sides of the receptacle.....then the Neutral will carry 70 amps.  OPPS....the shore cord and your interior wiring is #6.  The max load is 55 Amps....so you will burn or harm or overheat your neutral.  NOT GOOD.  

NOW....your Generator, if it is a 8KW, produces TWO or gives you Line1 and Line2.  They are BOTH 35 Amp services.....or the Genny's Breaker is a TWO POLE 120 VAC breaker.  That means if you OVERLOAD the Genny and you see over 55 Amps on the EMS....you are going to have overheating issues. 

This is a something that a lot of folks do NOT understand.  BOTTOM LINE....

Your EMS Panel was CORRECT.  The reason that you do NOT see the GEN SET light....is that you do NOT have a 240 VAC genny.  NOW if you do have a 240 or 10 KW genny....then you have an issue.  The reason that you see 30 amps.....is that since there is NO 240 VAC that the EMS measures....it automatically reverts to 30 amps.  BUT, with a 8KW Genny with TWO lines of 120, you will see the NUMBERS or AMPS as the TOTAL.....so you can see the total neutral.  That needs to be kept to below 55 amps.

HEAVY..  yes....but important.  

NOW....something happened to get your electronics and such into a major funk.  You MAY have lost (at the pedestal) one leg.  That really spooks the EMS.  By doing the preventative maintenance and also resetting the EMS and the Thermostats (they were messed up), you are then running a CLEAN system.  If it acts up, then more trouble shooting will be required.

Let us know what happens after you clean out all the ugly gremlins.....and do the PM and lets hope they don't come back...  If they do, then we will help you.

Good Luck.

Intellitec EMS System 5300684.000.pdf

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WOW,  mixed feelings of gratitude and relief. You all have helped me a lot. THANK YOU!! 

To update I will let you know that  I have a new Intellitec board coming ( second time to fail), I have thoroughly checked every accessible connector for wiring at my main panel and transfer switch. I replaced the 20 amp breaker for the front a/c**** ( this one did not properly reset and though it would go over to on, it was not on supplying power. I also did a reset of the intellitec board. That breaker was the main problem I found. I will move ahead on a replacement for the transfer switch also. But, when checking there is no evidence of any heat build up, There were not even slightly loose connectors. wire ends and coloration looked almost fresh.

I also tested the change over from shore power to gen set... all okay.

I really think the intellitec system was looking for the main board to be in order to proceed with power up. I think that as a deduction or as hind sight from where I am. 

I have the next few days of 104+ temperatures to really give everything a change to screw up again. Lots of steps to take but worth the journey. I learned a lot from you today.

 

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23 minutes ago, brokenarrow1244 said:

WOW,  mixed feelings of gratitude and relief. You all have helped me a lot. THANK YOU!! 

To update I will let you know that  I have a new Intellitec board coming ( second time to fail), I have thoroughly checked every accessible connector for wiring at my main panel and transfer switch. I replaced the 20 amp breaker for the front a/c**** ( this one did not properly reset and though it would go over to on, it was not on supplying power. I also did a reset of the intellitec board. That breaker was the main problem I found. I will move ahead on a replacement for the transfer switch also. But, when checking there is no evidence of any heat build up, There were not even slightly loose connectors. wire ends and coloration looked almost fresh.

I also tested the change over from shore power to gen set... all okay.

I really think the intellitec system was looking for the main board to be in order to proceed with power up. I think that as a deduction or as hind sight from where I am. 

I have the next few days of 104+ temperatures to really give everything a change to screw up again. Lots of steps to take but worth the journey. I learned a lot from you today.

 

Double WOW.  To understand.  You DO have the IOTA…it needs (must) be replaced.  If it is defective and the contactor is defective….then god only knows what is going on.  If you are on a good 50A circuit, then the EMS would look normal.  See the manual.  If you have a VOM….then measure the voltage inside the IOTA on the Shore or line,  you MUST have 240 VAC between Red and Back.  Then on 50A good….the IOTA must show 240 VAC on the Load or outgoing….THEN the EMS will or  should show the proper screen.  There are two pins on the EMS board that check that…in the manual.

NOW…my summary.  Once you get the EMS working….I would be concerned that the bad breaker caused the control relay in the front AC to “yell” or fake out the thermostat..so…do the Thermostat Reset.  It doesn’t hurt.  And IF your AC is flaky…then most likely that is a connection problem.  That is simple….but not going into a “what if” now.

Great job and good feedback.

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Tom's the expert, and I may have missed it, but at a quick glance, it's possible your control board isn't bad. The EMS will act dead if not all your ema enabled breakers arnt supplying power. That AC breaker could be causing the symptoms.

Just a thought.

John

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32 minutes ago, JohnC3 said:

Tom's the expert, and I may have missed it, but at a quick glance, it's possible your control board isn't bad. The EMS will act dead if not all your ema enabled breakers arnt supplying power. That AC breaker could be causing the symptoms.

Just a thought.

John

Absolutely right.  Don’t ask me to explain….but the breakers have to be ON. Ok….I’ll hypothocize… Actually here is why….I think

The Intellitec EMS board has TWO shedding “zones”.  The one zone is the AC’s,  NOW blame this one on Monaco.  There are THREE AC Shedding Relays. They were, per Magnum and the Instructions….and MAGNUM told Monaco this. TO SHED BY BREAKING THE THERMOSTAT control wires that were supposed to be hooked up to these three relays.  NOT! Monaco in its stupidity, ran the AC 120 VAC Breaker (on main panel) to the low voltage contact relays.  Typically, the Front and Rear.  They only, on most models used TWO of the AC shedding thermostats.  Guess what.  Those relays fail….especially if they are cycled with Full Line Amperage….usually 20 amps.  So, that is a failure point.  If you have a bad AC breaker that doesn’t trip quickly…then the amperage ramps UP.  Zapped contacts.  
 

NOW, since you know that….then the OTHER 4 circuits, apparently…or the best guess of the gurus, HAVE to see or have a “120 VAC” line coming in.  When the EMS is OK and there is no shedding….then all is well.  BUT, turn OFF a breaker….and then the EMS gets mad.  Probably it wants to some milliamp current….ask MM RV Electronics.  If ONE of the breakers is off.   Or if you don’t have a washing machine….the EMS still wants to see incoming power….

That is about as clear as mud….but that is the scenario….turn off a “shedable” circuit or breaker…..the EMS “pitches” a fit. The only way to placate it (think about a temper tantrum in a child), give it its pacifier…..or turn on all the breakers that are feeding it’s shedding relays.

If that scenario is not the case and someone has a better explanation, I ain’t gonna argue…..it is all I can theorize….after 13 years of hearing about problems….

good comment….thanks….

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I believe the EMS is monitoring the 120 volt of two different legs for comparison. That is, by seeing essentially 240 volts the EMS knows to act like a 50 amp panel. 

If you happen to trip one of the legs it uses to compare, then it can get confused and act weird.

Had it happen to mine. I also had my EMS burn up. There was evidence of flames inside the panel. Those darn relays work hard. 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, myrontruex said:

I believe the EMS is monitoring the 120 volt of two different legs for comparison. That is, by seeing essentially 240 volts the EMS knows to act like a 50 amp panel. 

If you happen to trip one of the legs it uses to compare, then it can get confused and act weird.

Had it happen to mine. I also had my EMS burn up. There was evidence of flames inside the panel. Those darn relays work hard. 

 

 

Yes.  You are correct.  When there is 240 VAC, as in a REAL 50 A service.  There are two pins on one “J” terminal strip.  As long as it is 240….all is well. Conversely, if you have a 10 KW or 12.x KW Onan, it is 240.  When on a 7.5 or 8.0 KW, EACH 120 leg is “in phase” and the displayed amps is the total of the two.  That is why any neutral (that is where the amps is read) over 50 is not good….the ATS and #6 wire should be considered as 50 A Max.

The reason that the “difference”, as you well know.  On a real 50 A 240 VAC “out of phase” service….the neutral, if you put a clamp on ammeter on the Neutral, will be the difference.  Line 1 has 37 amps and Line 2 as 23.  Then the ammeter reads 37 minus 23 or 14 amps.  Put that same load on a fake 50 amp or from my 8.0 KW ONAN….THE neutral would read 23 plus 37 or 60.  Not good…

When the voltage is 240, then the AMPS display will be blank.  Also, there is no load shedding.  Sort like it is asleep.  But, if there is no 240, then the EMS starts a counter and a “tally” sheet.  There is a three hour average.  I posted the manual a few posts back.  The photo is a screen shot.

Basically, if you exceed more than the 20 or 30 amp setting, the EMS STARTS to shed.  There is a “timer”, unlike the Magnum Low Battery Cutoff….so you don’t get cut off for a blip. The timer is 2 minutes.  But, then the RVIA SPECS kicks in and the 80% rule or calculation takes over. I ASSUME, that if you go to inverter or off…that resets the timer.

That also raises a question about running 2 AC’s while traveling.  12 amps per AC would cause shedding.  Never paid any attention to that…

The more times you read the first couple of pages, the more it starts to sink in.

Good points and comments….makes me think and read….thanks

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Tom,,,this is the same symptom I was trying to explain a couple weeks ago on my rig. My rear A/c unit stopped working, so I flipped the breaker off so it would not go on and blow hot air.  Then I flipped off the washer/dryer breaker (don't have either) and that's wheny EMS was doing clicky noise too. Reading everything I want to check the ATS, can you tell me where that is located?

Thank you,

Lolo

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I am not Tom but will share my findings. Mine is located in the under storage behind a sliding dark plastic wall. The water heater is on the driver side at the end of that area, and my inverter is mounted to the floor.  My slide out drawer storage is in the compartment just forward of the door to this area.

I get in on the passenger side of the coach to get access to it. It is mounted on the wall and very hard to remove the cover.

Hope that helps, but I have read of a variety of areas where  the put them. I read the choice areas are usually near the reel for power cable storage, One guy was getting a replacement done in a video left rear storage area.

I have Monaco Camelot 2006 PPD.

I have 2 slides on drivers' side.

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Quote: "That also raises a question about running 2 AC’s while traveling.  12 amps per AC would cause shedding.  Never paid any attention to that…"

 

The generator supplies a 12 volt signal to the EMS that disables its 50 amp shoreline monitoring function. The display goes blank when on generator.

So there is no load shedding when on generator. I run two AC's all the time going down the road with no issues. 

I don't recall measuring voltage at the transfer switch but I know I have and probably would have remembered not seeing 240 volts from the 8 KW. My transfer switch was bad. It did not smoke, just the transfer part died. 

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15 minutes ago, myrontruex said:

Quote: "That also raises a question about running 2 AC’s while traveling.  12 amps per AC would cause shedding.  Never paid any attention to that…"

 

The generator supplies a 12 volt signal to the EMS that disables its 50 amp shoreline monitoring function. The display goes blank when on generator.

So there is no load shedding when on generator. I run two AC's all the time going down the road with no issues. 

I don't recall measuring voltage at the transfer switch but I know I have and probably would have remembered not seeing 240 volts from the 8 KW. My transfer switch was bad. It did not smoke, just the transfer part died. 

From the manual. 

If the generator is running, 120 VAC will be present at the L1 and L2 inputs and a +12 VDC signal will be present at J2 pin 2 on the Control Module. In this mode the energy management feature is disabled and all control relay contacts are closed, energizing all of the controlled loads. The Control Module sends a signal to the Display Module causing the load meter to display actual load current, the GEN SET service indicator to light, and all power status indicators to light.

Myron, you are correct.  I forgot that the Genny, no matter how underpowered or not 240 VAC is ASSUMED to have sufficient power for the needs of the Motor Home. BUT, there is also a fallacy there, in that the Genny's 35 Amp breaker...a two pole with 120 on each leg, could see or provide loads of 35 + 35 or 70 amps. We had one member overload his MH and had the HW50C DOWNSTREAM of the ATS....thus the Genny feed went through it.  He burned up the contactor, a FIRST, per Tommy Fannelli, the original owner and founder of Progressive.  

NOW that makes sense.  Late last night and too early this morning.

OK, if we go back to the very first post....then it appears that the EMS's display is not working...as he reported. The Gen Set light should have been on.  The ONLY thing that I might point out....  MM RV Tech, the paid Intellitec Tech Support (or were) says that the Remotes can act up or go bad. They are not like the Magnum remotes that retain settings.  They are just a "dumb" remote. The ONLY thing or action that they can control, via the 20/30 Current button is to SWITCH or tell the EMS which current is available.  

BrokenArrow has a new board on the way.  I guess we see.

Thanks...

 

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Tom, that is an interesting theory about having a load on each breaker. 
About a year ago I had to replace the Intellitec board and was informed by the tech I was working with that the a/c relays are normally closed so that the thermostat makes the on/off decision until the board needs to do load shedding. All the relays for the other breakers would be normally open until a load is applied. In our case it was a a/c relay that failed. 
Back to your theory, we do not have a washer/dryer installed even though it is plumbed for it. The specific breaker is always off. It is difficult for me to see how that one breaker/relay could cause the board failure. But then, what do I know. 
What this does emphasize is that I need the board to be rebuilt by M&M so that I have a woking spare.

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19 hours ago, brokenarrow1244 said:

WOW,  mixed feelings of gratitude and relief. You all have helped me a lot. THANK YOU!! 

To update I will let you know that  I have a new Intellitec board coming ( second time to fail), I have thoroughly checked every accessible connector for wiring at my main panel and transfer switch. I replaced the 20 amp breaker for the front a/c**** ( this one did not properly reset and though it would go over to on, it was not on supplying power. I also did a reset of the intellitec board. That breaker was the main problem I found. I will move ahead on a replacement for the transfer switch also. But, when checking there is no evidence of any heat build up, There were not even slightly loose connectors. wire ends and coloration looked almost fresh.

I also tested the change over from shore power to gen set... all okay.

I really think the intellitec system was looking for the main board to be in order to proceed with power up. I think that as a deduction or as hind sight from where I am. 

I have the next few days of 104+ temperatures to really give everything a change to screw up again. Lots of steps to take but worth the journey. I learned a lot from you today.

 

Just to clarify.  After you did all the PM and replaced the breaker, and had ALL the breakers in the ON position...your EMS panel did NOT show the Gen Set light on....like in your picture.  See my response to Myron as he pointed out a flaw in a post....then I went back and read the manual....and YES, when the Gen Set is ON....there is a 12 VDC signal to the EMS....which is supposed to light the Gen Set light...and then you got the amps or load from the neutral. That load will vary depending on what is cycling on. If you did all that and then switched or killed shore...and when to Genny and only ran one AC....as a test.  You would see the Gen Set light ON and probably 15 amps or so....assuming that the Inverter was not charging the batteries and there were no other AC load.

Please clarify if you get a chance.

Thanks...

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1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

Just to clarify.  After you did all the PM and replaced the breaker, and had ALL the breakers in the ON position...your EMS panel did NOT show the Gen Set light on....like in your picture.  See my response to Myron as he pointed out a flaw in a post....then I went back and read the manual....and YES, when the Gen Set is ON....there is a 12 VDC signal to the EMS....which is supposed to light the Gen Set light...and then you got the amps or load from the neutral. That load will vary depending on what is cycling on. If you did all that and then switched or killed shore...and when to Genny and only ran one AC....as a test.  You would see the Gen Set light ON and probably 15 amps or so....assuming that the Inverter was not charging the batteries and there were no other AC load.

Please clarify if you get a chance.

Thanks...

The PM did include removal of the plug in connectors on the underside of the circuit board, also , all were switched on, after replacement of the breakerl were switched on. Then I went to the shore plug and connected. The panel came on and showed 50 amp service all indicators came on one by one up the ladder. I then fired the gen set and it stabilized, changed over and display was GEN and lights came on up the ladder and it displayed the current draw on the readout. I did not run the a/c  with the gen set yet.  The problem prior to this was that it was not showing it had powered up those circuits. That is when I checked the board and heard the clicking relay.

My prior board may have had the similar issue but I did not have the knowledge then that I do now.  It just melted and burned up. I think knowing more about the system helped me avoid another melt down of the board. It was while running the a/c all day and temps were 105 at peak.

Most of the posts I read about this type of problem seem to be during really hot weather and with the air on.  I have some pictures of the old board I sent in a while back.

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The heat build up in the AC panel can be immense. 

My panel is located in the rear closet with very little space in the front for any kind of air cooling. In years past I would have to direct an air conditioner duct towards the panel with the closet door open to keep one of the Breakers from tripping from heat build up.

Changing the breaker did not help and I used an infrared thermometer to check the inside temps. 

As a Certified Electronic Tech with 50 years in electronics, I am very aware of heat issues.

To compound my heat issue they installed the water heater directly below the ac panel with just a simple wood divider that has a hole for a lot of wiring. The heat from the water heater added to the poor installation location.

Insulation all around the water heater has reduced the heat tremendously. I also provide a tiny bit of air circulation around the face panel as well.

The temperature issues are long gone now and I am confident the board is much happier.

 

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Myron, My EMS display shows the amperage used on L1+L2 on the display when the generator is active. I talked about the EMS generator mode with the great techs at MM electronics when I was upgrading to a victron multiples Ii 2x120. They told me there was a jumper on the system that limited the generator max power. 45 or 60A depending on which gen was installed. My ASSUMPTION would be that the shedding would begin at those levels, but I don't remember hearing that from the tech. I used this info to create a setup that allows me to run 2 ACs on a 30A shore power (30A shore + 20A power share from the inverter) by simulating generator mode. I have used this and it works well if you have stable 30A power. 

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