Pedal In/Out - No movement - 2002 Windsor

[Joe Lee]

Hello All - I have looked for this topic in the forums with no luck. So, I ask for your assistance once again!

I’m rolling in a 2002 Windsor with a Cummins ISC. Today, I’m trying to get my pedals adjusted. Attached is a picture of the Switch and pedals.  I’m curious if anyone has been able to repair this assembly when it stops moving. My captains seats have been replaced. Sharing that in case that is a clue for someone. 
 

All ideas are greatly appreciated!

Joe

[Joe Lee]

Thanks Tom!  Better title!

[Tom Cherry]

OK…not a problem that is widely spoken of here.  Let’s start with some history for you.  I can NOT blow up the picture and make out the logo on the unit from the initials on the brake pedal.  However, I can tell you that this unit was NOT included in the general Safety Recall of Kongsburg pedal assemblies.  I helped them with the procedures.  That was for model years 2004 and own up to circa 2010/12…..so that is one avenue NOT to go down.

Next up is find the adjustable pedal unit on the prints.  I am doing a little guessing on the switch.  Probably has 5 leads.  One is ground and that is for the “parking light” or the lighted (at night when headlights are on) bulb.  That will also have a “Park/Headlight” on positive.  Then there is probably 3 other wire….or maybe 6.  If three…Power on the rocker switch (center) and then one is extend and the other retract.  BUT, you need the schematic.  HOPEFULLY just a fuse.  Start down that path with the prints.  Whole lot easier than popping out switch and staring to probe the contacts and wires.

I did some googling…..switch not working is not a hot topic….so do the above….unless someone has experience.

[Dr4Film]

As Tom stated, check for a fuse first then look at the switch.

[Ivan K]

I have the same assembly in our 2000. It's not a complicated system. I have a 10A fuse in FRB on chassis distribution fuse panel, logical first step to check and it does not even go through an ignition solenoid in my case, always hot. The motor is hard to reach left and forward of brake pedal lever but has a red and yellow lead going to a connector  behind dash with all the wire bundles. The power just reverses depending on switch position. So, the fuse, then the switch would be the first to check, for me. Would hate to have a bad motor.

[jacwjames]

X2 on the fuse, I checked the label in my front drivers side run bay, 10 amp fuse position 31,   but on mine it is controlled by the ignition

>>>> I have taken pictures of all the fuse panels and their labels, makes it easy to reference.   All the pictures are on my laptop and phone.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by jacwjames

[Joe Lee]

Tom - the initials on the brake pedal are ‘BW’. Thanks!

[Joe Lee]

GM!  I have completed the following steps:

1) Tested 10amp fuse for continuity. Tested good. 
2) Tested 10amp fuse position #31 for power. Tested at 11.9 volts.  But, only with ignition on. See pics below. 
3) Removed the switch and saw 11.92 v on 2 posts.  With ignition on. 
 

So, it appears that I have power to the switch. 

Does anyone know if 11.92 v would provide adequate power for the motor in engage?

 

[Ivan K]

Joe, measure between position 2 and 5 of the switch. The voltage there should reverse as you flip the switch. These are the outputs towards motor. As long as the voltage does not drop way down, I would expect the motor to work with what you see.

2 and 5 should be blue and yellow wires.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Ivan K

[TomV48]

My question is quite rudimentary. 

Is there a way to get those switches to release and come out from the top or do you have to pull the panel and pop them out from behind.

I have a couple, one in particular, my cruise control switch, that get warm during extended use. That tells me probably poor contacts in the switch causing resistance but I really do not want to take that panel off console if I can avoid it.  It has been cracked and damaged by people removing it previously and I don't want to compound the problem if I can avoid it.

[Joe Lee]

Hey Guys - Here’s where I’m at.  In the picture below, you will see the disconnected wiring for the motor that drives the pedal assembly.

I have 12v to the blue wire when the toggle switch is pressed on the bottom part of the switch. 

I also have 12v to the yellow wire when the toggle switch is pressed on the top of the switch.  

Would you know if this is the correct power for each wire?  
 

Starting to sound like a motor to me.  
 

TomV48 - I can get the switch out by pulling it up and out if the panel. Not must extra wire to pull it out much.  What would you recommend?  Cleaning?

Thoughts?

Joe

[Ivan K]

Great that you located the 2 pin connector where blue-yellow changes to red-yellow just like mine, except mine is up behind dash. You are right to read positive 12V on each one when flipping the switch one way and the other. Every time one of them is positive, the other lead MUST be negative/grounded, is that so?  Best to measure between them and see the voltage to reverse.

[Tom Cherry]

OK….Ivan responded….  He makes sense…..What I can’t make out?  Is there a TWO or a THREE.  I tried blowing it up.  Exactly WHERE did you measure the voltage?  Did you measure to GROUND….if so, then when the Yellow has 12 VDC (presumably to ground) then the Blue should also be Ground.  But when the Yellow is hot, the Blue must be ground.  Reversing polarity on a DC motor (only 2 wires going to it) makes it run in REVERSE.

OK..next step.  Put your leads into the back of the MOTOR side of the connector.  If too big, use a small finishing nail or even a large sewing needle.  Use Alligator clips.  You have GOT to measure Voltage UNDER LOAD….as in the motor I supposed to be moving.  Hook it up with both meter leads on the pins or wires going to the meter.  Push the switch….should see a Positive 12 VDC one way….then the polarity will reverse and it will be  NEGATIVE 12 VDC….like you had the meter leads reversed.

Do this any way you can and make sure you have 12 VDC on each direction….only reversed.  IF YOU DO….then it IS, probably, the Motor…  if you only get a few volts, then there may be  problem in the switch…..or  ground or the incoming 12 VDC to the switch.

ANOTHER test….

OK….now let’s let’s test the motor with a KNOWN source.  A power plug will do.  If you have a device with a good power plug but is busted…..cut it off.  Or order one from Amazon.  Use your meter and determine which lead is positive.  Then you know the ground.  Figure out how to twist the ends from the power plug.  Push (sometimes a small tack or nail) into the negative.  Our use alligator clip leads…..whatever…..get a good ground and then use the positive….if it doesn’t move, then take off the 12 VDC and go to the other wire….Blue moves it one way.  Yellow the other.  If it works, then what is happening is that you have a high resistance OR bad connection (contacts in the switch).  The meter reads 12VDC, but when you apply power…..that drops way down.

The IMPORTANT thing is to Measure the voltage under load.  

Until you either measure the voltage, both ways, under load and have 12 VDC, then you will not know if it is in the unit (motor) or incoming (bad switch or connections, or whatever)probably but do your tests….trust me, it is a learning process….a MUST for any MH owner….
 

 

 

[TomV48]

His voltage seemed a bit low and I wondered if that was just the state of charge of his battery due to it sitting and passively discharging a little.

He was not too clear in the initial post.  Just that ignition was on.  Well ignition on with shall we say a battery that it less than fresh and fully charged could be the issue

[Joe Lee]

Thanks Men for the detailed help! I know it takes your valuable time to share your knowledge with me and it is greatly appreciated!  
 

So, my mistake in testing yesterday was that I grounded my meter to the chassis. Meaning I didn’t use my meter to check for voltage between the blue and yellow wires.  Now, I understand the reason for testing between the yellow and the blue. 
 

TomV - My State of Charge is a low. I have been disconnected from Shore Power for over a month and haven’t run my generator in 3 days. So, today, I’m rolling a  100 miles, so SOC should be good by then.  Sorry for the lack of that detail. I’m learning what you guys need to help me.  Thank you!
 

Ivan/Tom - When I connected the test leads of my meter as shown below, I didn’t get voltage from either of the two positions of the switch.  Next, I moved one test lead to ground to the chassis and 12v was shown for the one position of the switch.  Does that lead you to think it is the switch I’m having issues with?

Next, I will follow the motor test for the motor itself.  But, I wanted to get this clarification of my mistake from yesterday and my latest test out to you to ensure I’m still going down the right road.

 

And, yes. What a learning curve for me! I was a Corporate Guy behind a desk for most of my life. I wanted a change and a new challenge. Well, be careful what you wish for!  I got both!   The good news is that I’m to the point of working on things that aren’t keeping me from rolling. And, learning something new every day!

Thanks Men!

[Joe Lee]

LATE BREAKING NEWS!

I was able to apply 12v power to the pedal assembly motor and it moves!

So, I’m thinking the switch is bad. 
Am I correct is this thinking?  If so, yay!  I’m learning. If not, ugh. More education is needed…. 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Joe Lee said:

Thanks Men for the detailed help! I know it takes your valuable time to share your knowledge with me and it is greatly appreciated!  
 

So, my mistake in testing yesterday was that I grounded my meter to the chassis. Meaning I didn’t use my meter to check for voltage between the blue and yellow wires.  Now, I understand the reason for testing between the yellow and the blue. 
 

TomV - My State of Charge is a low. I have been disconnected from Shore Power for over a month and haven’t run my generator in 3 days. So, today, I’m rolling a  100 miles, so SOC should be good by then.  Sorry for the lack of that detail. I’m learning what you guys need to help me.  Thank you!
 

Ivan/Tom - When I connected the test leads of my meter as shown below, I didn’t get voltage from either of the two positions of the switch.  Next, I moved one test lead to ground to the chassis and 12v was shown for the one position of the switch.  Does that lead you to think it is the switch I’m having issues with?

Next, I will follow the motor test for the motor itself.  But, I wanted to get this clarification of my mistake from yesterday and my latest test out to you to ensure I’m still going down the right road.

 

And, yes. What a learning curve for me! I was a Corporate Guy behind a desk for most of my life. I wanted a change and a new challenge. Well, be careful what you wish for!  I got both!   The good news is that I’m to the point of working on things that aren’t keeping me from rolling. And, learning something new every day!

Thanks Men!

A little communication mishap.  I meant for you to use the probes in the BACK of the connector…..on the Motor side.  PLUGGED IN.  So, when you applied voltage (from the switch in EITHER direction ….up or down, then you were reading the voltage to the MOTOR.  That is the real test.  Now that you know the motor works, from your recent test, don’t go crazy and start chasing things.  Here is a “trick”….so I’ll try to explain it.

BUT FIRST…. @Ivan K & @Joe Lee  I can’t recall on my unit….and since it is a later year and also a a Kongsburg…..since the pedal is on the ignition, is there a transmission lockout for it.  The front “white” shade is tied into the transmission.  The shade will not operate above 6 MPH air so.  Obviously a safety issue.  Ivan, does yours work at all speeds?  I want to eliminate all variables before just condemning the switch.  We have had some really great trouble shooters here jump to that  conclusion and posted their “error” and reminded folks to follow good troubleshooting….OK….having said that…

First….we don’t know what the problem is….except that you tested the motor and it works.  As to the voltage….I it is on the Ignition and you were able to start the engine….then with the engine running….plug it back in.  Do NOT release the parking brake.  Then TEST it.  Wait maybe 5 minutes….my engine doesn’t allow full charging voltage for a time period….OK….NO JOY?

SO…try this….

Use the “wires” you tested the motor with and run it all the way DOWN.  You just need to reverse the leads, if necessary, to accomplish that….NOW…make a NOTE.  Which lead (on the motor end) had positive and obviously the other one is Ground.  To get the motor to come up or retract….the DOWN Ground wire has to now have power to come up…..  NOW follow this…

I am ASSUMING that UP or OUT applies voltage to retract it.  So, then the Yellow wire supplies POWER.  NOW look at the connector….does the Yellow wire go to the “Ground wire” that was used to move it DOWN?  If soooo….then Put your nails into each of the connectors (UNPLUGGED)…then use an alligator clip jumper (or tightly twist a stranded piece of wire to each one) to make a connection….you are jumpering or providing power from the Yellow to its mating wire…

NOW…take a nail and put it in the MOTOR SIDE to the other wire…that will be ground.  Then connect that nail to a GOOD ground.  

OK….start the engine….let it run…..after 5 minutes….push the switch up.  IF the motor moves…..then you have tested the switch’s 12 VDC contacts and they are delivering full power….if it don’t work, then, under load, there is either a problem in the switch or the incoming 12 VDC….  By doing it this way, you also provided a good ground…..not coming through the switch.  So, by having a KNOWN a good ground…..if it works….and also using the known good ground…..you have a GROUND  problem and it MAY be in the switch…..or in the ground wire to the switch.

If the switch works like this…then run  the test in reverse and try the test in the opposite direction…

Let us know
 

[jacwjames]

I've been following but nothing really to contribute, just trying to learn something.

What I do have is a parts diagram for the drivers side console showing the part number for the pedal adjust, which I assume is a Carling switch.  Diagram shows a part number of SW0150 but searches have turned up nothing.  Most of the time the Monaco parts page gives the Monaco part number but in this case it just gives the vendor part number.  Carling may be able to give you the number of a newer version or  Nwrvsupply.com does show pedal adjust switches,https://www.nwrvsupply.com/?s=pedal+adjust&post_type=product&type_aws=true   my guess is one of these would work, might be worth a call.  If that doesn't work Veurinks may be able to help to check compatibility of switch.

Since you know the pedal motor works there's a good chance it is the switch.  In a case like this it might be easier to just get a new switch and try it, at least that would be my course of action.  Penny wise pound foolish I think is the saying. 

1 Driver Console parts breakdown.pdf

[Ivan K]

Tom, to answer your question, my system is more simple. The power to pedal switch is always hot and not even dependent on ignition state. I don't recall adjusting it while driving but in my case I am certain I don't have any kind of lockout. Can test it tomorrow when we move.

What I know (and appears to be the same for Joe), ground comes to the switch on white wire in position 4, power comes on red wire, position 6 in the socket. Both have jumper loops to other side of the switch for voltage reversal. If ground is present on position 4 and 3 and it still does not show up on either 2 or 5 with switch actuated, the switch is bad. I have repaired few by just taking them apart and cleaning the contacts. Not much to them.

[Dr4Film]

My current 06 Dynasty has power to the pedal adjust full-time, no lockout. I don't recall how it was on my previous 02 Windsor but my guess would be that it is identical to how Jim J described it in one of his very early posts, power only when ignition is on.

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, jacwjames said:

I've been following but nothing really to contribute, just trying to learn something.

What I do have is a parts diagram for the drivers side console showing the part number for the pedal adjust, which I assume is a Carling switch.  Diagram shows a part number of SW0150 but searches have turned up nothing.  Most of the time the Monaco parts page gives the Monaco part number but in this case it just gives the vendor part number.  Carling may be able to give you the number of a newer version or  Nwrvsupply.com does show pedal adjust switches,https://www.nwrvsupply.com/?s=pedal+adjust&post_type=product&type_aws=true   my guess is one of these would work, might be worth a call.  If that doesn't work Veurinks may be able to help to check compatibility of switch.

Since you know the pedal motor works there's a good chance it is the switch.  In a case like this it might be easier to just get a new switch and try it, at least that would be my course of action.  Penny wise pound foolish I think is the saying. 

1 Driver Console parts breakdown.pdf 133.64 kB · 2 downloads

These are my recommendations.  
 

The Carling switch, you MIGHT NEED, is a stock, still made switch.  NOW FOR EVERYONE….this is the first “plug in switch” i have seen on a Monaco,  Carling makes a switch.  That switch can be hard wired, as in connections (the push on solderless push on crimped connectors) are wired directly to the switch.  That is how the Carling switches are in later years.  Specifically the 2008 Dynasty and up and my 2009 are that way.  I really never thought about it….but your MH is great.  Pull out…

Next up, you will NOT, unless you hit the lottery, be able to match the original mushroom cap or operator. There ARE a few vendors that sell the common ones and are a match.  Monaco used to order them by the boatload…..but now. There is little demand.  Lots of used ones on eBAY….but do they work.  So here is the good news, there is a special tool, made by Carling as well as knockoff’s that you use to carefully remove the top part of the operator.  You buy a new switch….you then remove the two operators and use your old one.  I have had to replace an operator that was broken….switch is FINE.  I talked  to Carling and learned a lot.  You SHOULD purchase a switch with the indictor “circle”….in case you mess up the old one.

BTW….the Monaco number is long gone…I know which Carling series and such that you might need, but you will spend an inordinate amount of time, fortnately, you have Ivan’s print, chasing down, with Carling the correct switch body….then the operator you need, the  googling and finally finding a vendor that probably has the right body and then chasing around for the right operator….I know…I spent a lot of hours….I found a non illuminated (has no bulb in the body) on Amazon…for $35….

OK….you have enough info….just buying and plugging in a switch is NOT how most people do it,  it may work….it may not.  If you had to pull each wire off a switch and replace it….you would DO the trouble shooting. 

My recommendation is to do the trouble shooting.  Then if it is the switch, I’ll (offline) help you and give you enough info.  I CAN SAY THIS….you will invest an hour of so versus finding the replacement….unless you quickly learn how to read a Carling parts catalog…

That’s it.  If some member has the PN for a blank indictor light one….good….but look it up snd verify that it is Contura (Series has to be specific) with an indictor or “ON” light (headlight citcuit).  DPDT On/Off/On Momentary ON..Center OFF….and there maybe more info needed…

Good Luck…let us know which route you decide on…

[jacwjames]

I took my rig for a short drive today to fuel it up.  While driving at slow speed I check the Pedal Adj in/out and it still functioned so mine does not have ignition lockout. 

 

FWIW, took my rig to the local farmers Coop, they had fuel for $3.20 a gallon, finally looks like we're getting some relief on high diesel prices.   3 miles down the road though the big truck fuel stations on the interstate are still $3.89

Edited May 11, 2023 by jacwjames

[Ivan K]

On 5/11/2023 at 8:39 AM, Ivan K said:

Tom, to answer your question, my system is more simple. The power to pedal switch is always hot and not even dependent on ignition state. I don't recall adjusting it while driving but in my case I am certain I don't have any kind of lockout. Can test it tomorrow when we move.

What I know (and appears to be the same for Joe), ground comes to the switch on white wire in position 4, power comes on red wire, position 6 in the socket. Both have jumper loops to other side of the switch for voltage reversal. If ground is present on position 4 and 3 and it still does not show up on either 2 or 5 with switch actuated, the switch is bad. I have repaired few by just taking them apart and cleaning the contacts. Not much to them.

I drove the coach yesterday and my pedals can be adjusted at any speed.