Another Fridge Adventure, Amish Unit Took a Dump $$$$$$$

[Guest Al redcay]

On 6/6/2023 at 3:16 PM, birdshill123 said:

As a business owner I firmly believe in the following: It is easy to appear like you look after customers when things go well. But when there are problems how these problems are handled  separates the good from the bad. In this case JC should have fixed the problem. His lack of concern could cost him  his reputation. Sometimes it pays to realize that you have made a mistake

 Immediately  he should have quickly offered to make it right.

 

A rule I always with my business was for everyone you please they tell 10 friends & for everyone you displease they tell 100 people, it always worked for me. 

[Notn2bars]

96 EVO, fortunately, the floor was solid where I drilled through.  No wires to hit:). Bill R, hopefully you are right. Will look at that today. Al, looking at the reviews for JC Refrigeration, you will find a mixed bag.  Should have paid more attention to the bad reviews when we made the purchase. Mike, happy for your positive experience with JC Refrigeration.  Not flaming them, just relating a warning. Bruce, it probably depends on the day of the week.  I generally don't pay much attention to negative reviews. No matter how good you are someone will report a bad experience.  We just happened to have a bad experience.  As a result, I cannot in good faith give them positive marks for the way we were handled.  The install is moving along, although not as fast as I would like.  The goals for today are: to cut the hole in the side of the MH for the furnace, install the furnace, wire everything together, reroute the water line, reroute the wiring and outlet for the fridge, figure out the electricity to the basement outlet, and complete the platform for the fridge.  We will see, this 73 year old body is moving a little slower today.  God Bless All, Ed & Sylvia

[jacwjames]

5 hours ago, Al redcay said:

A rule I always with my business was for everyone you please they tell 10 friends & for everyone you displease they tell 100 people, it always worked for me. 

This was the lesson in grad school when I got my MBA.  And it's probably true. 

I had a real bad experience with a Ford Chassis on a Class C.  After 5 major mechanical issues, of which only one was covered under warranty, I sent a registered letter to Henry Clay Ford Jr, CEO of Ford at the time.  Finally got a call from a customer service rep, first thing he did was suggest it was a lack of maintenance that caused the problem.  I let him go down that path for a minute and then jumped and explained my background, education (Eng, MBA, Master in Industrial Engineering with an emphasis in Lean Manufacturing that included the Quality Six Sigma course work).  I told him that the problems I had were simply poor quality and that my rig pretty much blew the Ford Quality #1 program right out of the water.  He stuttered and an walked back his comments.  I did mention that saying about a dissatisfied customer telling 100 people.  >>>>  I'm up into the 1000's considering how many time I've posted about the issues. 

3 hours ago, Notn2bars said:

96 EVO, fortunately, the floor was solid where I drilled through.  No wires to hit:). Bill R, hopefully you are right. Will look at that today. Al, looking at the reviews for JC Refrigeration, you will find a mixed bag.  Should have paid more attention to the bad reviews when we made the purchase. Mike, happy for your positive experience with JC Refrigeration.  Not flaming them, just relating a warning. Bruce, it probably depends on the day of the week.  I generally don't pay much attention to negative reviews. No matter how good you are someone will report a bad experience.  We just happened to have a bad experience.  As a result, I cannot in good faith give them positive marks for the way we were handled.  The install is moving along, although not as fast as I would like.  The goals for today are: to cut the hole in the side of the MH for the furnace, install the furnace, wire everything together, reroute the water line, reroute the wiring and outlet for the fridge, figure out the electricity to the basement outlet, and complete the platform for the fridge.  We will see, this 73 year old body is moving a little slower today.  God Bless All, Ed & Sylvia

My basement outlet was daisy chained off the same circuit the 1/2 bath and bedroom were on.  In my case it does have a dedicated GFCI in the inverter subpanel.  The power that was behind my fridge were two circuits, one inverted and one off the main panel.  So I had the option to use the inverter if driving or shorepower if parked. 

When I installed my Samsung I had to get every bit of height I could.  Really could do anything at the ceiling as I had to be able to open the fridge door and miss the light right in front of it.  When I was done I had ~1/2" of clearance above the furnace. 

[throgmartin]

We just did a Residential fridge conversion 2 months ago which replaced an Amish unit. The Amish unit puked after 2 years. The customer was tired of the Norcold and PO'ed that he didn't go with the resi fridge right away.

There are ongoing issues with Norcolds. Not just being a fire hazard but also having door hinge problems and door seal issues. The door seals cannot be replaced individually. The other issue is that Norcold's are poorly insulated. The resi fridge will hold the temp much longer. One other thing I found that I liked when I threw my Norcold out and went to a resi fridge was the added space. The Norcold is a 12 Cu Ft fridge. Going to an 18 cu ft fridge is hog heaven.

I lost track of the money I put into that Norcold. I should have thrown that thing in the landfill the first time I started having issues.

[Notn2bars]

Jim, my goals for today, as it turns out, were a fantasy.  Spent an inordinate amount of time measuring and remeasuring to make sure the cut for the exhaust was in the correct place.  Too often I have measured once and regretted it. Since the cut would be to the outside, wanted to make certain it was correct.  It turned out fine.  Then cut two rounds to fit the hole exactly.  The hole saw we have cuts a little larger than the existing hole so I had to whittle them down on a sanding disk.  Put some glue on them and using a little hammer persuasion they eased into place.  I placed the rounds in the hole below the level of the fiberglass skin. If at a later date I have the desire to patch and level with fiberglass, it will be possible.  Currently we will put a piece of polished aluminum plate over the hole.Thanks for the info on the inverter GFCI, will check that out tomorrow.  We only had one circuit behind the fridge and it automatically runs off either the inverter or shore power. Looks like we will have a little more than 1 inch clearance above the furnace.  Also, coated the holes and floor of the fridge cabinet with Aqua Defense.  It's a water barrier for coating the inside of a shower before laying tile.  Just a some insurance against water intrusion. Chris, our thoughts exactly on the Norcold. Trying to get it right was a complete waste of money, time and effort. God Bless Y'all, Ed & Sylvia

[jacwjames]

Ed,

When I first started my career in mining one of the managers I worked with provided some guidance on estimating time required to complete a project.  He said make an estimate of how long it would take for you to do a project yourself and then DOUBLE it.  This would account for unforeseen things, need for supplies, BS time with workers. Turned out to be pretty good advice even when I'm working on something myself. I attribute age.

 

 

You were lucky that one of the holes lined after lowering the furnace to floor.  I wasn't as lucky.  I had posted what I did on IRV2, like you I wanted to make sure I cut the holes in the right locations so I came up with below, worked out pretty good and figured it wouldn't hurt to post here.

 

"To your specific question, Yes you do have to relocate the intake and exhaust when you lower the fridge. This is probably what scares a lot of people off but in reality it wasn't that bad. The furnace was mounted on a board that elevated it ~1 5/8" off the floor, this was done to route the propane line for the fridge under the furnace. This line was removed since it wasn't required. I removed the furnace and board.

To relocate the intake and exhaust I used the outer SS plate as a template. I used a 3/4" X 6" piece of wood and screwed the plate onto the board, this gave me the hole pattern that I could used to attach the board to the side of the coach. I then marked off center line of the exhaust and intake holes and the center line of the center of each hole. I then measured down 1 5/8" to give me the location of the new holes. I drilled a small pilot hole in the board at the location. I then mounted the board to the side of the coach using the 4 holes, this positioned exactly where the SS plate had been. I then used a hole saw to cut each new hole. I kept the pieces that I had drilled out, the actually looked like 1/2 moons.

When I was done drilling the hole you end up with a long series of holes. I took the half moon pieces and glued/screwed them in the correct position to fill in the gaps of the elongated hole leaving the location of the new holes for the intake and exhaust.

When I removed my Norcold there was a piece of polished aluminum that was mounted above the refrigerator to deflect heat. i took this piece and cut it large enough to mount on the coach under the SS plate that covers the exhaust and Intake. I used the template board I made earlier to locate the new hole location on the piece of aluminum. I did put a good bead of geocel along the perimeter before mount it and the SS plate. and then along each edge after they were mounted.
 

Edited June 9, 2023 by jacwjames

[Notn2bars]

Jim, your input is valued and appreciated.  The first pic is a view of the bottom of the cabinet after the Aqua Defense has dried.  Area cleaned up and ready for the furnace.  The second pic is the intake and exhaust in the new location, still need to put the aluminum plate in place.  Third pic is the cover for the hole left when moving the vacuum port.  4th pic is the shortened gas line installed.  This was the biggest PITA.  Took me three tries to get it to fit right.  Making the loop, bending it and flaring each end. Unfortunately stripped a fitting and need to pick up a 1/2 plug (another run to Lowes or Home Depot). 5th pic is a view of the furnace installed.  As you can see there is more room for the duct work, with the added room from moving the vacuum duct. Attaching the furnace ducts was fairly easy.  All the electricity is working again.  Had tripped a breaker.  Vacuum works as it should.  Will test furnace after installing plug in the tee fitting. Tomorrow will create and install the platform for the fridge.  God Bless, Ed & Sylvia

Edited June 9, 2023 by Notn2bars
incomplete sentence

[hitechpete]

On 6/6/2023 at 3:39 AM, Notn2bars said:

We made the unfortunate decision to purchase an Amish 110 volt cooling unit to refurbish our Nevercold about 2 years ago.  The unit was purchased from JC Refrigeration in Shipshewana, Indiana to the tune of $1400.00.  This included misc parts, shipping and the cooling unit.  Last fall my daughter came to visit and we took the MH to the gulf and noticed the fridge would only cool at the highest setting.  I noticed some corrosion at the fittings from the compressor to the coil.  Called JC and sent a pic of the corrosion.  The response I received was, "you must have it sitting outside for that to happen."  No offer of help! About 2 weeks ago, went out to the storage lot and turned the fridge on, waited 24 hours, not cooling at all.  Need new fridge.  Decided to install a residential unit, which is what we should have done in the first place.  (hindsight is 20/20).  Pulled the old unit out.  Here are pics of the removal. First, remove hinges between doors.  This will allow bottom doors to come free.  Take pliers and undo the round nuts on top of the upper doors.  Then they can be removed. Second, remove the white plastic piece at the bottom of the fridge, the one with three screws.  Third, remove the trim around the perimeter of the fridge.  It basically pops off.  Fourth, remove the 3 screws from the top of the fridge and 3 screws from the bottom. Fifth, (if you still have an original Nevercold, shut off propane and disconnect the line from the back of the unit, undo water line, disconnect plug from wall, disconnect 12 volt lines, you will find 2 screws going through the bottom sheet metal in the back of the unit, remove those) if not just disconnect plug and 12 volt wires (white and black).  Sixth, disconnect and remove light fixture in front of fridge.  Seventh pull fridge out from the hole and discard. Used a motorcycle jack to help with the removal, worked out great. I took great joy in cutting the Nevercold into two pieces with a saw and throwing it out the door. After removing Nevercold and tossing it outside, I took the compressor off and discovered 2 places where the freon had leaked out.  Shoddy craftsmanship at it's best.  If you were considering an Amish unit, beware.  Will continue tomorrow.  God Bless, Ed & Sylvia

I reused the black trim pieces to finish the opening when I replaced my Norcold for a domestic “Beko” fridge in 2019. The black plastic was used to cover the brackets I had constructed to hod the front of the fridge securely into the opening, I also screwed 3 screws into the floor at the rear for insurance.

[jacwjames]

55 minutes ago, hitechpete said:

I reused the black trim pieces to finish the opening when I replaced my Norcold for a domestic “Beko” fridge in 2019. The black plastic was used to cover the brackets I had constructed to hod the front of the fridge securely into the opening, I also screwed 3 screws into the floor at the rear for insurance.

I left the opening around my Samsung open to allow for air circulation.  Can't remember what the manual called for but the refrigerator requires air circulation in the back and sides.  The gap around the front of mine is ~1/2-3/4", probably not enough but without major surgery to the cabinet face it will have to do. 

I did leave the area between the furnace and the fridge open so I get a lot of air flow there.  I used conduit strut material to create two elevated legs. 

I did seal the old Norcold roof vent and rear vent, which seemed to be the general consensus when installing a residential refrigerator.

Edited June 10, 2023 by jacwjames

[Notn2bars]

Good Morning to all! Peter, thank you for the input as to trimming around the fridge, not sure how I will trim mine.  Jim, what has been the rational for closing of the roof vent and rear vent?  Seems to me closing off the rear vent but leaving the roof vent would draw air under the fridge and out the roof.  I would think that would increase the ability of the fridge to cool.  Looking forward to your thoughts.  (Late start today) God Bless, Ed & Sylvia

[jacwjames]

Just from what I've read. 

I believe someone had commented on the lower vent being open would cause problems when real cold out as that most Fridges don't like low outside temps.

Upper vent could allow hot & cold temps in. 

Again, just what I read and it seems like most people block both opening so that's what I've done. 

Maybe others can chime in.

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, jacwjames said:

Just from what I've read. 

I believe someone had commented on the lower vent being open would cause problems when real cold out as that most Fridges don't like low outside temps.

Upper vent could allow hot & cold temps in. 

Again, just what I read and it seems like most people block both opening so that's what I've done. 

Maybe others can chime in.

New Energy Star appliances (maybe since the early 2010's or so are NOT designed to operate at the same temperatures that older ones were.  Check the specs.  The Samsung Factory service guy says he get many calls going into the winter in the Raleigh area as folks have a new refrigerator or freezer in their unheated garage, carport or outside buildings.  They shut down.  Mine cut off and locked up (you had to unplug...wait a few minutes and it reset...then plug back in) two nights in a row after installation.  

I insulated my Upper and Lower side vents (or if you have a top vent....that needs it).  It ALL depends on when you camp.  Mine was one of the first "frost warnings" near Asheville, NC.  Probably got down to the high 20's.  Fine during the day.

NOW, from an overall standpoint.  The Res Refers are designed to run in a conditioned environment.  The gas units....NOT SO.  The Gas units were insulated on the sides and/or the interior wall.  TWO reasons.  SAFETY....as in that kept Carbon Monoxide OUT.  VERY DANGEROUS of course.  Second was to keep your interior (Heated and Cooled air INSIDE).  The reverse is what now needs to be done.  You INSULATE the two openings....as well as the louvers in the frames.  That KEEPS you from losing your conditioned air.  You MUST, an ABSOLUTE MUST, removed all insulation on the sides and leave the air gaps between the inside walls of the Res Refer compartment and the Res Refer.  That allows air to circulate into the rear section where the compressor is vented.

OTHERWISE...the Res Refer will run too hot and potentially  be damaged.  We have had some folks that had very narrow air gaps on the side and they had to add a thermostatically controlled 12 VDC circulation fan in the rear.  VERY FEW....but it did happen....the member (RIP) was a meticulous engineer and problem solver...

That's it...for the VENTING and INSULATION and the WHY's...

BTW, there is NOW a whole series of "All Weather" refrigerators and freezers out there.  The Lowes in the NC mountains stocks or has them...a friend just had to replace a 20 year old chest freezer and the appliance associate asked him first out....will this be on a porch (unheated)....YES...so they got an all weather one...

[Notn2bars]

Big thanks to Jim and Tom for the information on the why's of sealing the roof vent and the back fridge compartment vent.  Had to take a break from the project, think I was suffering from heat exhaustion.  Tackled more of the project today.  Put together a frame for the platform and as luck would have it, my careful measuring wasn't careful enough.  The platform turned out to be 3/8 of an inch higher in the back than the front.  Pulled it all out and started again.  Wish I had the MH inside a shop instead of a storage lot, it's close to 100 degrees with 60 % humidity.   Waste so much time going here and there for parts, cutting, and etc.  Frustration was the word of the day:)  The pex line for the ice maker is 3/8's.  Neither Lowe's nor Home Depot carry any 3/8's pex fittings.  Here are pics of the framing and completed platform for the fridge.  Getting close, was going to finish up tomorrow.  Received a call from the fellow in Progresso, Mexico who is reupholstering the driver and passenger seats.  The seats are ready to be picked up.  We had them upholstered in all leather, will be picking them up tomorrow.  Still have to test the furnace, find the fittings to attach the icemaker line to the 3/8ths pex, remove the insulation from the inside cabinet walls, close off the roof vent and the rear fridge vent and remove the driver's side window.  Then the fridge will go in.  Platform for the fridge is 1 1/8 inch above the furnace.  The instructions for the furnace clearances list 1 inch on top, 2 inches from the sides and 0 front and back.  So fortunately was able to meet the requirements.  God bless all, Ed & Sylvia

[birdshill123]

Those Pex fittings are hard to find. Try a plumbing supply house or an appliance parts wholesale.

[jacwjames]

First project I did on our coach when we bought it was replace carpeting with laminate and had to drive ~10 miles with supplies tools plus not power at the storage so had to run generator. 

 

I get a 3/8" barbed adapter to a common size and the use a sort wire braided fridge ice maker line. 

[Notn2bars]

Jim and Bruce, thanks for keeping up.  Jim, did what you suggested and put these three fittings together for the ice maker line.  See pic.  Spent most of the day going to Mexico to pick up the seats and at Home Depot and Lowes  figuring out the fittings needed.  Was able to put together what we needed at Lowe's.  It's 98 degrees in the shade and almost 60 % humidity, so not going to doing anything until later when the sun goes West.  Guess I shouldn't complain, the MH is on a storage lot with complete hookups.  Only about 2 blocks away.  Not too bad for $40 a month. 5/16th barb fits 3/8ths pex perfectly, 1/4 fip collar and fridge valve 1/4 mip to 1/4 fridge line.  Pic of seats still wrapped in shrink wrap to keep them clean.  Oscar did a great job.  He used premium, thick leather for the job.  Will post more as we continue!  God bless, Ed & Sylvia

Edited June 13, 2023 by Notn2bars

[Notn2bars]

The gentleman who comes into our park to do odd jobs did a wash and wax on the old MH today.  Looks so much better when clean.  Not sure what happens with age, but I had a huge brain fart today.  All the electrical is hooked up and working, so I wanted to test the furnace before placing the fridge on the platform.  DUH!!!!!!!!!!!! The furnace is not going to turn on when it's 98 outside.  Pulled the insulation out of the side walls as suggested by Tom Cherry and Jim J.  Put the valve for the ice maker in place.  Looks like the fridge goes in tomorrow morning.  She will be going in the driver's side window.  In addition, the piston or line for the rear ram of the slide is leaking and the front a/c is not cooling.  Does it ever stop? God Bless, Ed & Sylvia

[Notn2bars]

Pray all is well with the group.  Last night used a putty knife to break the seal around the window, took all but 4 screws out.  This morning I went over to the MH to remove the window.  Removed the remaining screws thinking there was enough sticky to keep the window in place, wrong!!! The window removed itself and fell to the ground. Lesson learned, "two people are better than one." The Lord blessed me and the window survived the fall.  Loaded the fridge up in my neighbors truck and backed up to the opening.  Placed cardboard and a moving blanket over the bottom of the opening.  Four of us lifted the fridge through the opening and set it upright.  Total time was about 5 minutes.  Took much longer to round up four able bodied old men than to do the job.  Rocked the fridge from one side to the other to place 4 X 6 blocks under each side. This was to enable the jack to slide under the fridge.  Jacked it up and went right in. Pulled it back out and did some minor work on the cabinet so it would sit level.  Wondering if I should place trim around the fridge or leave the openings. The louvered vent behind the fridge will be covered and insulated.  Hopefully will have everything buttoned up tomorrow.  Thanks to all who have contributed suggestions and followed the post.  God Bless, Ed & Sylvia

P.S. Went back and read Tom Cherry's post, so I'll not trim it out.

[jacwjames]

Ed,

If your window didn't break you are one LUCKY guy, I'd go play to LOTTO.   When I removed my drivers side to fix the fogging issue ~9 years ago I rigged up a bungee cord to hole it place, got to the other side and up the ladder, dropped the bungee cord and lifted the window down.   I actually pulled the refrigerator through the passenger side window above the dinette table.  I have a tractor with forks, laid the refrigerator down on a blanket across the forks, lifted up the right height and then slide it into the RV resting in on the dinette table.  Then lifted it down and put on the dolly I made that was the same height as what I needed in the opening.

Not sure how you are going to hold the fridge in place but this is what I did. 

The bottom leveling feet at the front can be unscrewed completely.  So I took them out and used a HD bracket to attach the bottom of the fridge.  I used some pieces of the face frame to beef up the side frame to be able to attach the bracket to.  Painted it black so can't hardly see them.  Not sure why picture is upside down.

For the top I bought a piece of 2" wide aluminum angle can cut two pieces the predrilled it to attach to the face frame.  Painted the portion that would be visible  I then mounted on the side of the refrigerator using HD 3M adhesive tape.  Then screwed to the face frame.   Can't hardly see the pieces. 

I did take the original louvered panel in front, modified to size, just used wire mesh on the front and reinstalled. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by jacwjames

[Guest Ray Davis]

10 hours ago, Notn2bars said:

Removed the remaining screws thinking there was enough sticky to keep the window in place, wrong!!! The window removed itself and fell to the ground. Lesson learned,

Ed,  I would say you are indeed fortunate that the window didn't break.  For those that may be removing their window my suggestion ( what I did ) is lean a 2x4 against the window outside before removing the inside screws.  I predict you are going to love your new residential,  we have loved ours for about 12 yrs now, no problems

BTW, it's very true able-bodied men are getting hard to find,  maybe all my friends are getting old.  LOL

[Notn2bars]

Jim and Ray, thanks for checking in and giving suggestions.  I think to hold the fridge in we will do something similar to what Jim did at the top. Since the cabinet platform is solid and screwed in place I'll just screw the sheet metal in the back of the fridge to the platform.  I used Ray's suggestion and propped a 2x4 against the window to hold it it place.  The fridge project is pretty much done.  Think I will add a switch in the line to be able to turn the fridge completely off when not in use. Still have to insulate the access door at the back of the fridge.  God Bless, Ed & Sylvia

[jacwjames]

I think you will like the convenience of the residential, I'm getting ready to go on a trip next week so needed to start stocking the fidge, turned the breaker on and a couple hours later it was at temp.  A couple days before I leave I'll turn the ice maker on and I have a bunch of ice in the tray before I hit the road.  In the past we didn't keep a bunch of drinks in the fridge due to limited size but with the residential we have a bunch of bottled water and 3-12 packs of soda.  

Not sure what you are going to do for a fridge lock, there are different types being sold all of which are expensive for what they are.  An IRV2 member posted his solution which I copied.  Seems to work well.  I used a hood push button lock that they install on cars and adapted for the fridge by adding a large fender washer with adhesive to the fridge.  Then extension nut to be able to adjust depth. 

Only down side is that I've got to get the wife to put the end part where I can find it. 

[cbr046]

18 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Only down side is that I've got to get the wife to put the end part where I can find it.

That's a job for . . . . . Captain Neodymium!

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week. 😆

- bob

[Guest Al redcay]

1 hour ago, jacwjames said:

I think you will like the convenience of the residential, I'm getting ready to go on a trip next week so needed to start stocking the fidge, turned the breaker on and a couple hours later it was at temp.  A couple days before I leave I'll turn the ice maker on and I have a bunch of ice in the tray before I hit the road.  In the past we didn't keep a bunch of drinks in the fridge due to limited size but with the residential we have a bunch of bottled water and 3-12 packs of soda.  

Not sure what you are going to do for a fridge lock, there are different types being sold all of which are expensive for what they are.  An IRV2 member posted his solution which I copied.  Seems to work well.  I used a hood push button lock that they install on cars and adapted for the fridge by adding a large fender washer with adhesive to the fridge.  Then extension nut to be able to adjust depth. 

Only down side is that I've got to get the wife to put the end part where I can find it. 

I got these child proof locks , stick to fridge & lock when you travel. For the extra space on sides I got rino air bags & pump up a fridge can’t move. Hope this help someone. 

[Guest Al redcay]

Fridgidare makes a model that fits almost perfect 67.9 high 31 w & door off 25.1 fit right in front door.