Multiplex lights unexpectedly turn off - 2007 Patriot Thunder

[Frank McElroy]

Interesting how you mention lights turn off in a certain sequence.  When you press and hold the master switch, lights will all turn off in a certain sequence.  Press and hold the master longer and lights will all turn on in a certain sequence.  I'm thinking about the possibility that either the master keypad up front or the one in the bedroom is sending a spurious signal to operate the sequenced lights off feature.  Can you replicate the problem by holding in the master keypad?

[amphi_sc]

8 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

Interesting how you mention lights turn off in a certain sequence.  When you press and hold the master switch, lights will all turn off in a certain sequence.  Press and hold the master longer and lights will all turn on in a certain sequence.  I'm thinking about the possibility that either the master keypad up front or the one in the bedroom is sending a spurious signal to operate the sequenced lights off feature.  Can you replicate the problem by holding in the master keypad?

On my system holding master off disables or enables the full time backlighting of the key pads.  I've had the back lighting disabled and still problems. It is enabled at the moment so I can find the pads at night. Sequence doesn't seem to be predictable as first thought and it happens on three boards.  Watch the video with one light circuit each on boards B D and G.  These are dimmable boards.  Also note that non light functions such as water pump, aqua hot electric or diesel work, aqua hot radiator blower fans (even the three speed kitchen one) 100% with no problems.  Slide in/out and window awnings are fine as is generator start / stop.  For now I turn on three lights circuits on board B (main ceiling, main living room overhead (over couches and table), and the ceiling rope for a few minutes and then I can go down to just the main ceiling and they stay on.  If I only turn on the main ceiling it goes off.  Many times main ceiling on plus bathroom ceiling causes bathroom to go off (as seen in the video).  I've replugged most light keypads.  Interesting in that if I turn main ceiling on and unplug that keypad the ceiling will go off after a while anyway so I think that would eliminate "noise" from that keypad sending a random "off" command.  Same with the bathroom ceiling when main living room ceiling is on.  The bedroom ceiling lights seldom have a problem but will once in a while turn off.  Same with hall lights.  Hall lights are on two keypads and I've replugged those also.  The main 10 button has the living room - galley - hall lights.  I suspected that pad at first but as mentioned earlier lights still turn off with that pad unplugged.  The main ceiling ights also can be turned on with a Carling switch in the stairway dash but turning them on there will also experience the self turn off phenomena.

I am passing east through Ohio soon but M &.M has no openings to look at it, and even if they did Chris was saying it could run $3,000 plus parts to diagnose.  For that price I may put up with turning on multiple light circuits to keep the one I really want on.  Downside is that puts an extra load on my batteries when we boondock (as we have been for the last week).  Boondocking, generator, or shore power still experiences the self turn off problem.

I might try putting a few (one or two would increase current draw) halogen high intensity bulbs back in the ceiling instead of the dimmable LEDs and see what that does. These LEDs had worked fine for previous years.  It is strange that when multiple light strings on the same board are turned on they stay on.  Single light strings don't unless multiple were on for a while and then downed to the single circuit.  So many variables it's hard to keep my notes straight for a pattern.

Thanks for brainstorming.

[Frank McElroy]

Your coach should have the feature of all lights off and all lights on.  With all the lights turned on, press and hold the master for about 3 seconds and all lights should turn off in a sequence.  Then press and hold the master for about 6 seconds and all lights should turn on in a sequence.  Does this feature work on your coach?  You should have a master keypad up front and one in the bedroom.

You have an issue that is very strange and one I've not heard of before.  Sure, it could be noise on the keypad databus from a bad keypad or keypad connection but it could also be a bad CPU module.  That's where the software program for turning all lights on or off resides.  Do you have a backup program for your system?

[pwhittle]

You should come through the Atlanta area and stop in so we can take a look.

Paul

[amphi_sc]

1 hour ago, pwhittle said:

You should come through the Atlanta area and stop in so we can take a look.

Paul

It would be worth a try. You busy around the week of Oct 9th?  We're headed South East to Pigeon Forge however presently in South Dakota taking our time...  Atlanta is close enough after TN.

Thanks,

Al

Edited September 14, 2023 by amphi_sc

[pwhittle]

That should work.

I’ll Pm you-

Paul

[amphi_sc]

On 9/13/2023 at 7:09 AM, Frank McElroy said:

Your coach should have the feature of all lights off and all lights on.  With all the lights turned on, press and hold the master for about 3 seconds and all lights should turn off in a sequence.  Then press and hold the master for about 6 seconds and all lights should turn on in a sequence.  Does this feature work on your coach?  You should have a master keypad up front and one in the bedroom.

You have an issue that is very strange and one I've not heard of before.  Sure, it could be noise on the keypad databus from a bad keypad or keypad connection but it could also be a bad CPU module.  That's where the software program for turning all lights on or off resides.  Do you have a backup program for your system?

I owe an update on this.

Whereas I''ve only used holding the master off to enable/disable the backlighting of the keypads it will turn All the lights on in what appears to be all lights on one board then all lights on the next board and finally all lights on the third board.  However all lights off appear to be simultaneously all off ... i.e. not board by board.

[amphi_sc]

General update:

Having tried resetting the cpu, killing all power to the CPU closet, toggle salesman switch, disconnected batteries, loosening and retightening all hot wires to the modules, all lugs on the circuit breakers on the closet power bus, unplugging and replugging all edge connectors on the boards in the cpu closet, loosening and retightening all the ground screws I could manage to loosen (some were so tight I couldn't budge them), unplugging keypads ( and where a circuit had multiple keypads to control that set, unplugging the other keypad leaving one keypad to turn that set on ... and then trying the keypads unplugged or replugged it n.tjr alternate test).

I then decided to unplug and replug every G4 light.  For a couple of days I thought that solved it until last night when I turned on another LR ceiling set while DW headed into the BR and turned the normal ones on there.  It was just s random act of us doing our own thing at the moment but that caused the lights to go out in a sequence. I think by board module but don't recall it having timing like a master ON sequence. (Remember I haven't found the right holding of the master off switch to turn them off in a sequence ... master off turns them all off at once, as well as changing the keypad backlighting, whereas all on does turn them on in a sequence.) However today the lights have been behaving properly.  So in some ways it is a step forward in that they aren't going off as much, but a step backward in that I can no longer repeat the problem at will

When I took all the ceiling light discs out (actually dimmable LED discs that replaced all the old halogens 5,6, or 7 years ago ... I haven't looked through my old credit card statements to find exactly when I bought them) we also cleaned the glass lenses so very likely the LED discs might have been reinstalled in a different ceiling location.  However other than the closet + driver/passenger overhead lights, the other circuits have been used the last few days without the definitive repeatable {and frustrating) self turn off problem other than ONCE last night.  So maybe the problem is related to a dusty G4 pin connection in the ceiling socket??  Or maybe one of the LED discs that is likely in a different socket now?  But then again I experienced the self turn off last night but not tonight ( and didn't find a magic sequence to repeat it now whereas earlier before I unplugged all the LED discs it was very predictable and repeatable).

Anyway I'm going to keep monitoring it.  I'm also considering running a new 14 ga ground wire from the closet bus bar through the floor to the bus bar on the upper driver's side engine bay, and from there to another new clear frame connection.  Also there are 5 old style seldom used filament bulbs I haven't removed the shades to twist those bayonet bases, and I haven't yet taken the bathroom ceiling fixtures off the ceiling to replug the 4 LED strips that replaced the old florescent tubes (but there is no old ballast up there in the ceiling ).

I think the problem has to be related to introduced noise from some place.  I'll update again in a few days. And if not solved in a couple of weeks will head to Atlanta.  Thanks guys.

[amphi_sc]

Final update as it's been over month since unplugging and replugging all the light bulbs.  That seems to have cured the problem of the light circuits turning off by themselves.

The lights had resumed to working normally when I made it by Paul's on the way by and he graciously backed up my CPU "just in case" of a future catastrophe.  Such gracious and knowledgeable hosts, and a great tour of all he has going on at his place.

[Frank McElroy]

On 10/28/2023 at 1:06 PM, amphi_sc said:

Final update as it's been over month since unplugging and replugging all the light bulbs.  That seems to have cured the problem of the light circuits turning off by themselves.

The lights had resumed to working normally when I made it by Paul's on the way by and he graciously backed up my CPU "just in case" of a future catastrophe.  Such gracious and knowledgeable hosts, and a great tour of all he has going on at his place.

Thanks for posting an update.  One thing that can cause the Intellitec light module to shut down is a case where too much total current for all circuits passing through the module.  Not enough to blow a fuse but too much in total for the module.  But, I believe you had all LED lights - so current could not be the issue.  The only other consideration I can think of was a poor contact of one on one or more led connections causing digital noise.  Anyway, Thank you for posting how you resolved the problem.

[Tom Cherry]

On 10/28/2023 at 1:06 PM, amphi_sc said:

Final update as it's been over month since unplugging and replugging all the light bulbs.  That seems to have cured the problem of the light circuits turning off by themselves.

The lights had resumed to working normally when I made it by Paul's on the way by and he graciously backed up my CPU "just in case" of a future catastrophe.  Such gracious and knowledgeable hosts, and a great tour of all he has going on at his place.

@Frank McElroy & @pwhittle are GREAT FOLKS.  We are glad to have Paul as one of our best Electronic “gurus” and Frank as well….plus his moderating and helping out on so many issues….

Glad things are working.  I have the hybrid system, so mine does not have the CPU as I don’t have the number, complexity and variety of switch functions.  But I do have at least 8 keypads and 3 “output” modules.  Frank makes a good point.  I have converted to LED’s for the pucks and vanity and sconce.  I turned off one of my Living fluorescent fixtures…..

 FOR OTHERS….Interested…. we have had folks with ballasts going bad and that “overloaded” the entire module.  Memory says, and Frank will correct, the max current load is 60 or 70 amps…for a module…but 10 circuits @ 10 amps equals 100.  The rationale for the 60 or 70 is diversity in that all 10 circuits will, highly unlikely, all be on.  So, as Frank  says….be aware and also make sure that the connections are tight and do not have a high resistance connection….drawing too much current.

On 6/16/2023 at 9:14 AM, Ivylog said:

Instead of going through multiple steps to cut power (including solar) to the CPU to reboot the system, what about just unplugging all the plugs on the CPU?

Only issue is….killing power and a “single” ON is what the CPU needs.  I reconnected house batteries once.  OPPS…it arced and then made and unmade the connection.  Totally destroyed the “reboot”.  The modules got confised and never did their handshake.  Some keypads missing lights….some keypads totally gone.  Others working.  I THOUGHT I HAD DESTROYED IT….LOL.  Then killed power….waited a few minutes.  Turned on house bank disconnect switch..all loverly….Safest and recommend way.  Disconnect switch or salesman switch…or the circuit breaker to the whole system.  May be more than one….so kill power totally…one switch back on…it should reboot correctly.

[amphi_sc]

2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

@Frank McElroy @pwhittle

The interesting part is while too much current was discussed, the actual case indicated too little current was a factor in that the introduced noise was more significant in proportion.  Having converted to LEDs, the current for each set of light strings is in the 1 to 2 amp range if I trust what the Aladdin is showing me when running totally off batteries, thus the Magnum isn't supplying any 12v so the Aladdin should be showing the correct battery draw.  When I had three light strings on, the Aladdin showed a 4 amp delta draw.  So with the one string on and likely a marginal LED puck connection someplace the introduced noise wasn't drowned out until I turned on multiple strings to get the current draw up past a couple of amps.  With all LEDs the module load for lights is way way way below even 25 amps, well below the 60 amps mentioned as a limit.

The good news is it is still working normally today, and I didn't have to give 3k to a certain candy store to try to figure it out.  All it cost me was time and frustration.  And I got a system backup and learned the "all lights on" function whereas I always thought it just changed the key pad backlighting option.

[Tom Cherry]

9 hours ago, amphi_sc said:

The interesting part is while too much current was discussed, the actual case indicated too little current was a factor in that the introduced noise was more significant in proportion.  Having converted to LEDs, the current for each set of light strings is in the 1 to 2 amp range if I trust what the Aladdin is showing me when running totally off batteries, thus the Magnum isn't supplying any 12v so the Aladdin should be showing the correct battery draw.  When I had three light strings on, the Aladdin showed a 4 amp delta draw.  So with the one string on and likely a marginal LED puck connection someplace the introduced noise wasn't drowned out until I turned on multiple strings to get the current draw up past a couple of amps.  With all LEDs the module load for lights is way way way below even 25 amps, well below the 60 amps mentioned as a limit.

The good news is it is still working normally today, and I didn't have to give 3k to a certain candy store to try to figure it out.  All it cost me was time and frustration.  And I got a system backup and learned the "all lights on" function whereas I always thought it just changed the key pad backlighting option.

Fascinating.  LED’s on components designed for incandescent be strange critters.  Our church as a very expensive “lighting” control system that was designed in the mid 2000’s.  It is a 120 VAC DIMMING system with 6 modules that control 36 circuits.  So each module has 6 circuits and there is a “voltage reduction” that will dim or hold at various levels down to maybe 25% and then powers off.  The coils give off heat like a big gas log system.  I’ve looked at conversion to LED which would save considerably on energy as well as “wear and tear” as the modules have a finite life.  Interestingly enough, the service tech says the only issue is current draw.  Several of the circuits have fewer 150 - 250 watt bulbs.  Convert to LED….current is too low for a circuit….so instead of dimming, it “flashes”.  The fix is to add an incandescent to the circuit….like a bare bulb in a ceramic socket mounted on a piece of plywood in the control room.  Or combine 2 circuits on a driver (the 6 circuit module) and that solves the draw.  Once we need to relamp, then we combine or set up a bare bulb panel.

[Greg G]

We are having a similar issue with our 2006 Navigator.  We also have disconnected solar and took all power away.  I probably only gave it 30 minutes though and did not try to turn something on while disconnected.  The problem is not our lights however.

Our aqua hot diesel will not stay on overnight.  We normally are on shore power and only use it for showers.  It has worked overnight a couple times since the reset, there seems to be no rhyme or reason to how long it will stay on.

Am I looking at having to swap the module as recommended here?

It ran all night last night but as i have read through this, I noticed the light is off.

Thanks