2004 Monaco Windsor Starter? issue

[dave7vt]

Sure could use some help.

I've got a problem with my 2004 Monaco Windsor that has a 400 ISL Cummins engine that have been dealing with for the last couple of years. It started happening after I replaced the starter. 

After I run the motorhome for a while maybe 100 miles sometimes just 10 miles……….. if I turn it off …..quite often it will not restart. The starter does not engage.

All I get is a click….. obviously back in the engine compartment. I know this is not very much information. 

And again this did not start happening until I replaced a bad starter with a new starter. I believe the starter I replaced was original, and I know that the new starter that I installed was the correct starter for the 400 ISL. More details below.

 I can tell you a couple of things that I've done to try and fix this problem. 

I've replaced some relay switches that are back on the sidewall in the engine compartment. They are on the right hand side if you're looking at the engine. I can send you some pictures. The reason I replaced these relays…… is because that seemed to be the place I was hearing the click when the engine would not start. So I replaced the relays and their associated fuses.

I thought that it solved my problem. (Because it doesn't always happen) …. But then the problem started happening again. In fact I don't think the problem ever went away. The only thing I know for sure is this problem started after I replaced a bad starter.

Just so you know the starter I took out of the coach had its negative terminal wobbling around inside the housing….. That's how bad the old starter was.

I had a mechanic install the new starter 2 years ago (That's how long I've been dealing with this problem). I know I got the correct starter for the 400 ISL Cummins….. But it did come with an extra part attached……….  the mechanic said This part was not required, (so he took it off and did not use it when he installed the starter). The old starter did not have the extra part and so it seemed to me that the mechanic was probably right……. And who knows he probably was right and my current problem is unrelated.

….. However I still cannot for the life of me figure out what is giving me this issue. If I let the coach sit for many hours ……usually it ends up being overnight. The coach will fire right up.

As I have been working on Coach in my garage with a suspension issue over the last couple of weeks……. I have started the coach dozens of times….. Without issue. Today I took it for 10 mile drive parked it back in the garage……. turned it off ……weighted 15 minutes…… went to start it and it would not engage……… just a click.

Can anyone give me some insight?...... Or ask me some questions so that I can give you more information.

I sure do appreciate the help.

David
 

  

[Just Jim]

Does it sound like when the battery is not sufficient to turn it over?  I realize the battery is most likely ok, but just curious if it might be a low voltage situation.  No issues with alternator?  Possibly a loose battery connection.  Perhaps drive it and get it to the point that it will only click and apply a good positive connection directly to the starter.  If it turns over, then you at least have something to try and track down.  Also, I wonder if you have a bad solenoid?  There are many guys on here that are much more savvy on these things and I'm sure you will get some good info from them.  

[waterskier_1]

I am not a fan of replacing parts in hopes of finding a solution.  Many times you create more problems, and end up chasing yourself in circles.

I think the Windsor has the remote start switches - can you confirm?  They would be two toggle switches on the same panel, in the rear engine compartment.  One is likely labeled Front, OFF, Rear, and the Start (momentary Switch).  These will allow you to try starting the engine from the rear so you might see (hear) what is going on.  If it is the Starter solenoid (relay) that is clicking, you can try jumping around the relay to see if the starter will crank.  You can also monitor the chassis batteries voltage when you do this.  If the voltage drops a lot, you have bad batteries, if it doesn't change much, the batteries could be good and just a bad connection or the solenoid.  Try taking these steps, and report the results aback and the group can make further suggestions.

  -Rick N.

Colorado Springs, CO

[dave7vt]

There is a definite solid click that sounds to me like a bad solenoid, but with the starter being brand new (when this issue started) I did not think it could be a solenoid.....but I suppose the new starter could have a bad solenoid ????

The batteries are new and charged. 

It only gives me this problem when its hot....but not 100% of the time. Sometimes when its hot (having been driven for a while) it will start. But to be honest........I do not turn the coach off until I reach my destination.

2 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

I am not a fan of replacing parts in hopes of finding a solution.  Many times you create more problems, and end up chasing yourself in circles.

I think the Windsor has the remote start switches - can you confirm?  They would be two toggle switches on the same panel, in the rear engine compartment.  One is likely labeled Front, OFF, Rear, and the Start (momentary Switch).  These will allow you to try starting the engine from the rear so you might see (hear) what is going on.  If it is the Starter solenoid (relay) that is clicking, you can try jumping around the relay to see if the starter will crank.  You can also monitor the chassis batteries voltage when you do this.  If the voltage drops a lot, you have bad batteries, if it doesn't change much, the batteries could be good and just a bad connection or the solenoid.  Try taking these steps, and report the results aback and the group can make further suggestions.

  -Rick N.

Colorado Springs, CO

Rick,

I do have the rear start switches and have tried to start the coach from the rear....so that I can see and hear what is happening. It is hard to say where the distinct SOLID click is coming from.....but it sure reminds me of all of the '60s Mustangs I've owned when the solenoid is bad. Being a new starter, and new batteries.....I simply thought it must be something other than the solenoid.

I do I jump around the solenoid to see if the starter will crank? I remember how to do it on a mustang ...lol

[waterskier_1]

I'm not sure if that starter has an integral solenoid or if it is remote.  The ones I've recently looked at were remote.  But high temp can increase wire resistance, and may drop the voltage so low the starter, even with the solenoid energized, won't spin.  That is why voltage measurements are so helpful.

  -Rick N. 

[dave7vt]

7 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

I'm not sure if that starter has an integral solenoid or if it is remote.  The ones I've recently looked at were remote.  But high temp can increase wire resistance, and may drop the voltage so low the starter, even with the solenoid energized, won't spin.  That is why voltage measurements are so helpful.

  -Rick N. 

The solenoid is attached to the starter ....if that is helpful.

So...should I be checking voltage at the starter when trying to start?

[DavidL]

You should wire a voltmeter to the starter wire and have a second person crank the motor.  Ensure your clothes / body parts aren't any place that can get sucked in if the motor cranks / fires.

The voltmeter should show almost full battery voltage.  If it does, and the starter doesn't turn, then it's likely a bad starter.  If low or no voltage, then it's indicative of a starter solenoid that is bad (check that you have full battery voltage to the heavy wire to the solenoid).

 

Even if the solenoid is part of the starter assembly, it probably is available separately and would be a lot cheaper than buying the starter.

 

Diagnose before shotgunning parts is way cheaper.

 

On many starter solenoids, you can use a screwdriver to connect the battery positive to the start terminal (small terminal) to get the solenoid / starter to crank.  And to ensure you have full voltage to the solenoid, you can also short the battery cable directly to the starter wire and the starter should immediately crank.  If so, then the solenoid is bad.  Note that you will see a good size spark as this is a high amperage bridge with the screwdriver.  just quickly touch and remove.  You can melt the terminal / screw if too long.

Edited June 18, 2023 by DavidL

[waterskier_1]

In order to jump around the solenoid, you need to find it.  Then just jump between the two large wires.  The other option, if you have room, is to jump directly from the battery to the starter post, but be very careful, and just to for a second to see if the starter spins. you don't want it starting.

  -Rick N.

[TomV48]

Well I'm thinking temperature related can only be a couple of things.

A bad battery connection with expansion and contraction of the metal May create a resistance when you go to start hot.

There may be a problem where the starter needs to be shimmed.   I had that problem with an old Chevy once Upon a Time. Original starter didn't need shim replacement starter needed a slight shim to avoid it being too tight to engage when warm.  Seems like I did it with some thick gasket material create a spacer.

Also had a starter that had a solenoid sitting on top of it .  The solenoid kept failing. Well it was a late model Mercedes-Benz 5 cylinder diesel and I just couldn't believe it.  Finally learned that there was no heat shield and the turbocharger, sitting right above it, for whatever reason was starting to run hotter than it should and it was smoking the solenoid below it.  Finally rebuilt it by milling (reaming) the diameter of the coil/sleeve and the Piston so it had a little more clearance and after doing that is only failed every couple years (hey don't say it a turbocharger on that thing was expensive back in the day)

Then what happens to me all too often, I buy a part thinking it's new and it's "remanufactured" and something fails almost immediately because the remanufacturing process involves taking things apart cleaning and replacing the obvious stuff and slapping them back together again.  Since the pandemic I kind of wonder if new parts aren't made about the same way.

Best of luck and when you figure out the problem please let us know.

Tom 

 

 

[waterskier_1]

Ok.  Many models have the starter in the rear run bay.  Guess it depends on the model and year.  Voltage checks at the battery while trying to start are the easiest.  If you have to check voltage at the starter (or starter mounted solenoid), it's best to run wires to the solenoid back to your meter.

  -Rick N.

[waterskier_1]

14 minutes ago, TomV48 said:

Well I'm thinking temperature related can only be a couple of things.

A bad battery connection with expansion and contraction of the metal May create a resistance when you go to start hot.

There may be a problem where the starter needs to be shimmed.   I had that problem with an old Chevy once Upon a Time. Original starter didn't need shim replacement starter needed a slight shim to avoid it being too tight to engage when warm.  Seems like I did it with some thick gasket material create a spacer.

Also had a starter that had a solenoid sitting on top of it .  The solenoid kept failing. Well it was a late model Mercedes-Benz 5 cylinder diesel and I just couldn't believe it.  Finally learned that there was no heat shield and the turbocharger, sitting right above it, for whatever reason was starting to run hotter than it should and it was smoking the solenoid below it.  Finally rebuilt it by milling (reaming) the diameter of the coil/sleeve and the Piston so it had a little more clearance and after doing that is only failed every couple years (hey don't say it a turbocharger on that thing was expensive back in the day)

Then what happens to me all too often, I buy a part thinking it's new and it's "remanufactured" and something fails almost immediately because the remanufacturing process involves taking things apart cleaning and replacing the obvious stuff and slapping them back together again.  Since the pandemic I kind of wonder if new parts aren't made about the same way.

Best of luck and when you figure out the problem please let us know.

Tom 

 

 

 

I'm thinking the heat has more to do with wire resistance increase, than thermal expansion of the connectors.  I've had gasses motorhomes (think Dodge 440 from the 1970's) that had a heat problem.  Both due to the starter getting too hot and the fuel lines vapor locking.  But I haven't read about this being a problem in our diesel pushers.  There isn't the confined compartments like front engine rigs.  In any case, voltage measurements will tell the story.

  -Rick N.

[Martinvz]

I had a vehicle which did the same and the dealership did not believe my wife’s explanation (not wise on their part).

Turns out that the exhaust manifold was running close to the starter and affecting the solenoid.

I am not saying that this is your problem but please check that you have heat shielding in place where needed. 

[dave7vt]

1 hour ago, TomV48 said:

Well I'm thinking temperature related can only be a couple of things.

A bad battery connection with expansion and contraction of the metal May create a resistance when you go to start hot.

There may be a problem where the starter needs to be shimmed.   I had that problem with an old Chevy once Upon a Time. Original starter didn't need shim replacement starter needed a slight shim to avoid it being too tight to engage when warm.  Seems like I did it with some thick gasket material create a spacer.

Also had a starter that had a solenoid sitting on top of it .  The solenoid kept failing. Well it was a late model Mercedes-Benz 5 cylinder diesel and I just couldn't believe it.  Finally learned that there was no heat shield and the turbocharger, sitting right above it, for whatever reason was starting to run hotter than it should and it was smoking the solenoid below it.  Finally rebuilt it by milling (reaming) the diameter of the coil/sleeve and the Piston so it had a little more clearance and after doing that is only failed every couple years (hey don't say it a turbocharger on that thing was expensive back in the day)

Then what happens to me all too often, I buy a part thinking it's new and it's "remanufactured" and something fails almost immediately because the remanufacturing process involves taking things apart cleaning and replacing the obvious stuff and slapping them back together again.  Since the pandemic I kind of wonder if new parts aren't made about the same way.

Best of luck and when you figure out the problem please let us know.

Tom 

 

 

 

Tom,

That was extremely helpful. I'll get cracking on this list.

 

[vito.a]

One of the new style gear reduction starters will help by reducing the required starting current.   

[dave7vt]

15 minutes ago, vito.a said:

One of the new style gear reduction starters will help by reducing the required starting current.   

can you tell me more, or share a link?

 

[waterskier_1]

1 hour ago, vito.a said:

One of the new style gear reduction starters will help by reducing the required starting current.   

This is true, but you have to get the current to the starter in any case.  This would significantly help is the current starter was cranking too slow.  But, as I understand the original problem, he can't get power through the starter solenoid.

  -Rick N

[dave7vt]

On 6/19/2023 at 1:52 PM, waterskier_1 said:

This is true, but you have to get the current to the starter in any case.  This would significantly help is the current starter was cranking too slow.  But, as I understand the original problem, he can't get power through the starter solenoid.

  -Rick N

correct, when the engine is hot ....or up to temp. ...and I shut off the coach.....I'm not getting the starter to engage, and I've yet to determine if I'm getting the correct voltage to the solenoid......this weekend I hope

 

[DrewGeorge]

Hey David, I just read your thread and I'm curious if you figured out what was wrong because I'm having basically the same problem/symptoms in my new-to-me 1991 Dynasty - I'd love to hear an update if possible.

[daveyjo]

Sounds like a problem I had on an old GM vehicle.  The starter solenoid had a copper disc that, when energized to start the vehicle, pressed the disk against the 2 battery circuit contacts and engaged the starter.  I took the disk out and sanded it clean - poof, no more problems.  Did that on several vehicles.  I don't know if your starter works that way.  I think my 2001 Diplomat had that system, but am not positive (can't remember).  FYI.

[TomV48]

On 8/5/2023 at 6:17 AM, daveyjo said:

Sounds like a problem I had on an old GM vehicle.  The starter solenoid had a copper disc that, when energized to start the vehicle, pressed the disk against the 2 battery circuit contacts and engaged the starter.  I took the disk out and sanded it clean - poof, no more problems.  Did that on several vehicles.  I don't know if your starter works that way.  I think my 2001 Diplomat had that system, but am not positive (can't remember).  FYI.

My first Chevy was like that and I think my old Mercedes Benz was too.  But the Benz had a different problem, arrissing from a lack of a heat shield between the turbo and the starter so when the turbo was getting old the surrounding area, ie solenoid on top of starter, suffered from the heat and failed.

Edited August 7, 2023 by TomV48

[Viper04]

I have a 2000 Dynasty with a 350 Cummins. Sometimes 

mine will do the same thing. I discovered that the bendix was 

some how not fully engaged into the flywheel teeth. Don't know why but my father in law 

(owner operator over the road truck driver) told me to take a breaker bar and socket and move the crank about a quarter turn in either direction. Did so 

and Wala! Fired right up. He said he had one truck that did this until he had it in the shop and replaced the flywheel, starter and had the timing 

checked to be spot on. The flywheel had machining issues 

ie.. flat spots that when the engine stopped at certain points the flywheel teeth failed to properly align with the starter gear. Ie. The start gear just bounced off the flywheel instead of meshing with the teeth. Also a weak soloid can cause your issue. 
 

I keep a 3/4 breaker bar and socket in my tool bay

 

thx

 

Tim