New AC plug and play recommendations

[bhsl8]

My front Penguin has bit the dust. The unit comes on and the compressor starts but I just get outside unconditioned air. Is my assumption correct that the refrigerant is gone and cannot be recharged? If so, what replacements have folks had good luck with? It is a 13,500 btu model with heat pump (which I never use). I have the five button thermostat. 
Also, this issue happened right after a tree fell on the rig causing other extensive damage. Could that possibly be the cause? 
Thanks in advance. 
 

Brouck Sleight

2002 Dynasty 

2020 Explorer ST

2022 Indian Pursuit 

[Ivan K]

It absolutely could be caused by the falling tree. The copper lines go through sheet metal dividers and if the sheet metal gets bent or deformed, it can easily cut the line. I have done it to myself going through garage door and not lowering the coach enough. The subject of recharging or replacement/upgrade was discussed plenty enough in recent posts if you look for it.

[Tom Cherry]

29 minutes ago, bhsl8 said:

My front Penguin has bit the dust. The unit comes on and the compressor starts but I just get outside unconditioned air. Is my assumption correct that the refrigerant is gone and cannot be recharged? If so, what replacements have folks had good luck with? It is a 13,500 btu model with heat pump (which I never use). I have the five button thermostat. 
Also, this issue happened right after a tree fell on the rig causing other extensive damage. Could that possibly be the cause? 
Thanks in advance. 
 

Brouck Sleight

2002 Dynasty 

2020 Explorer ST

2022 Indian Pursuit 

If it is a failure, then there are about only two ways to go.  There was a recent topic that discussed path one or two.  Be advised that the Monaco’s are NOT hardwired for conventional thermostats.  Ours are MPX and are data cable controlled.  Each Dometic has a “translator” or a control module that takes the MPX commands from the 5Button and then operates.  That 5 button system is obsolete and Dometic does not sell 5 button thermostats.  If the original CC (control circuit?”.  They upgraded to the CC2 and the components (thermostat and individual control modules) from the old system will not work.  Dometic, currently, only ships units with CC2 Controllers.  They sell a retrofit kit for $200 or so and it takes a tech an hour or so to remove the CC2 and put in the CC (salvage it controller.  Once the second fails, then you are better off to go to CC2 and then reinstall the original CC2….again up to two hours to undo what was done to salvage the 5 button.  Manynfolks here have the skills and understanding and do that.  What, we are seeing, is that the older CC control modules are starting yo fail…no big surprise.  So, pouring $400 into a new unit and keeping the obsolete CC iand then spending an additional $200 when you convert or maybe $600…is not a good approach.  I plan to replace BOTH when one fails….and have budgeted for it.

The other alternative is a lower priced different brand.  There are issues where the duct between the two units might need to be physically blocked and the units are AC only (or maybe HP?).  But their individual thermostat is in each unit and your Aquahot or Furnace needs to have the entire MPX network retained and installed…otherwise…no heat or adding an up the wall rtaxt and two thermostat..

Read up and understand….then lay out the program and be aware of the costs and limitations…

[Gary Cole]

I don't know how the rumor started that these units are not serviceable. For about $150 one can scrap the OEM board if it fails and convert to generic heat pump boards which are used throughout the industry by dozens of manufacturers. These components will always be available and fully supported so you would be free of flaky arbitrary support which is common to niche manufacturers. I would remove a ceiling panel and install a hard wire cable so that I would always have the option of wireless or hardwire control from my choice of $40.00 state of the art thermostat. The most expensive component in the rooftop unit is the compressor which I have seen for less than $200 at times. However they seem to last forever if they are operated at a reasonable voltage and kept at full charge as they depend on refrigerant from the low side suction line for cooling

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Gary Cole

[Tom Cherry]

14 minutes ago, Gary Cole said:

I don't know how the rumor started that these units are not serviceable. For about $150 one can scrap the OEM board if it fails and convert to generic heat pump boards which are used throughout the industry by dozens of manufacturers. These components will always be available and fully supported so you would be free of flaky arbitrary support which is common to niche manufacturers. I would remove a ceiling panel and install a hard wire cable so that I would always have the option of wireless or hardwire control from my choice of $40.00 state of the art thermostat. The most expensive component in the rooftop unit is the compressor which I have seen for less than $200 at times. However they seem to last forever if they are operated at a reasonable voltage and kept at full charge as they depend on refrigerant from the low side suction line for cooling

 

In theory, true.  But here in lies the circuits.  A cheap Coleman thermostat, and I talked to a Coleman tech and he sent me the prints snd such, ain’t gonna work.  So…without getting into the HP and AC recersing valve discussion….here is what we have.

There are only a few wires in the ceiling that Monaco ran.  120 VAC; 12 VDC from the House Fuse Panel; two “furnace/heater” control wires….assuming multiple frunaces or Aquahot.  Older, lower ends only had ONE furnace…so not every rear AC controls a heat source.  The front has a data cable (phone lookalike) from the Thermostat and a data cable to the rear… Three units or units with separate (4 or 5 button) thermostats were a little different….each thermostat has to be POWERED from the 12 VDC inside the “control Module”.  

Evdn IF you could take down a ceiling panel and many  say that doesn’t work as they are not like a drop in ceiling, there are NO EXTRA wires.  The standard Coleman thermostat sends out a Positive 12 VDC signal for “furnace”. Got 12 VDC…unit is ON.  NOT SO on Monaco”s.  Two wires to each heat source…regardless of Aquahot or individual furnaces.  Close or make the circuit…furnace or AH zone comes on, break the contacts…OFF.  So, a standard thermostat , assuming you get a wire ain’t gonna work.  You also have to have 12 VDC to the new controller or the workaround board…. Need another wire.  

Right, wrong or indifferent…converting or getting rid of the “niche” MPX control circuit and putting in a “standard” AC & Heat circuit requires wires being run and Monaco’s are not easy to snake wires.  Folks have had cut data or staples in the data cable.  The usual fix…snake a new data cable down the duct to the back unit.  One bad from the thermostat…a nightmare.  The thermostat has NO direct DC going in.  It gets powered from a control unit…

If you read a lot on the RecPro, the issue is always, primarily Monaco, and others with the DuoTherm (Dometic) MPX…controlling a furnace.  Now we have a lot of great folks here…and it amazes me what they can do.  One ripped out his Dometic and installed Coleman units.  i never got curious enough to ask…how did you run the wires…?  But I know he has rewired and ran wires fore and aft and is good.  One solution would be a flat conduit on the roof.  Wires up from Thermostat(s) and through the roof and then conduit to each AC.  Anything is possible if you are good and understand and are creative…but paying a tech to do such?  $$$$$$.

So, back to my post.  A standard Coleman thermostat that sends out a 12 VDC to each component or each function (like your home) system will not work for heat.  YES, you can get around that by adding in a Bosch relay at each unit.  Energize the relay…the. The contacts close and the heat source work.

Without having a circuit or a schematic on the cheap board approach….?  All I can say…but I know, from pouring over circuits and helping others fix their systems and also trying to help them restore the “heat” when they gutted their old Dometics and did not understand the complexity of the MPX systems, that too many take a “all you have to do” comment, that is either in error or did not explain the entIre conversion, literally…and has left members high and dry.

There are stories and posts all over the internet about folks thinking that an alternative would work,,.as well as techs…and then paying big bucks to get the heat restored.  Some didn’t and they used space heaters or sold the rig “as is”…we get a LOT of topics for “help me…it won’t work”.

@Gary Cole   Please post the specifics of the items needed that you discussed in your post, as well as the circuits and a schematic.  You seem to have a great, much better than I, knowledge of the mechanics of the compressor and heat pump.  i have talked to MicroAir and RecPro and Dometic and Coleman and a really great local tech who know circuits in all the major brands.  He and I talked about the “non Dometic” conversion. What I posted, I believe is correct.  Folks have even tried some Amazon Alexa stuff…to no avail.

If there is a way to do what you say…as well as figure out how to get the 12 VDC wiring from a new thermostat to the “salvaged unit”, please help us out with specifics.  Our role as moderators is to make sure information is correct and follows good practices as well as the manufacturer’s guidelines.  If there is a solution, you helping us out with specifics would bevgreat…so we can add information to the files as well.

Thanks…

[Gary Cole]

Tom when I get back into town I'll take a look at my notes. I can say that removing the ceiling panels isn't as difficult as some would imply. I removed all of my front ceiling panels in the course of replacing a faulted romex cable which fed  my front AC. I discovered that the fiberglass insulation was poorly installed, even missing in some places, and decided to replace all with foamboard as I had already pulled 3 panels. I'm thinking that I easily doubled my ceiling R- value. I should have taken some before and after temp readings.

A heat pump control board has a backup heat function which is used when the outside temp falls to a certain temperature. That point could be used to control the existing heating system if so desired. Or one could use independent thermostats. I like the redundancy  of independent heating and cooling systems in our RV application. Just me. Again when the ceiling panels are removed one can pull the necessary conductors. Those who have units with a defrost option could spend another $40 for a defrost board if they wanted. Generally not necessary. One would would have to install a small control transformer large enough to handle the board and contactor coil load. $20.00 maybe. The only 4 inputs necessary for the board would be thermostat, fan, ambient temperature, and evaporator coil temperature. The remote sensor would not be used as conditioned space temperature is sensed at the thermostat. I haven't given fan speed much thought at this point. A few different options are available. I would consider variable speed control in order to reduce the annoying blower noise similar to that found in high end modern units. 

I picked a unit at random and found a control board for $176.00. However Ebay has boards for as little as $50 with a warranty. I'm thinking these are might be overstock out of the box new parts. Really don't know.

 This is a project in my mind at this point so I'm sure there are some loose ends still left. Any input would be appreciated.

I would prefer to be prepared with a plan and parts on hand when the inevitable comes. Always at the worst possible time and place it seems someone here observed. 

I noticed a few weeks ago that the compressor start time delay function in my front AC seems to be keeping its own time lately.

As Tom observed this upgrade would not be for everyone. However for those with low hour use units and able to do some or all the work it is an option.

 

 

[birdshill123]

I am not in need of any new units but I  just saw this in another forum. Heck of a deal

Walmart Has Dometic Roof AC's Half Price+Free Shipping
 

$1029 plus tax. Free shipping.

This specific unit comes with Heat Pump and the multi zone thermostat circuit board already installed. Several RV online retailers have been listing this unit for $2,000, or $1700-1800 plus shipping charges that pop up at checkout.

Here's the model number of this specific unit that you can search for on Walmart's site:

H551816AXX1C0

15,000 BTU
Black Bottom--White Top
Heat pump installed
Free shipping direct to your address
Can be returned to local Walmart store

I just ordered my third one. Randy just ordered one.

As I understand it this is the successor to the Penguin II but with many improvements (no sheet metal, less vibration and better fan = quieter). Early indications are that it uses 1/3 less electricity than Penguin II's.

[Bobbyboy]

On 8/24/2023 at 11:01 AM, Tom Cherry said:

If it is a failure, then there are about only two ways to go.  There was a recent topic that discussed path one or two.  Be advised that the Monaco’s are NOT hardwired for conventional thermostats.  Ours are MPX and are data cable controlled.  Each Dometic has a “translator” or a control module that takes the MPX commands from the 5Button and then operates.  That 5 button system is obsolete and Dometic does not sell 5 button thermostats.  If the original CC (control circuit?”.  They upgraded to the CC2 and the components (thermostat and individual control modules) from the old system will not work.  Dometic, currently, only ships units with CC2 Controllers.  They sell a retrofit kit for $200 or so and it takes a tech an hour or so to remove the CC2 and put in the CC (salvage it controller.  Once the second fails, then you are better off to go to CC2 and then reinstall the original CC2….again up to two hours to undo what was done to salvage the 5 button.  Manynfolks here have the skills and understanding and do that.  What, we are seeing, is that the older CC control modules are starting yo fail…no big surprise.  So, pouring $400 into a new unit and keeping the obsolete CC iand then spending an additional $200 when you convert or maybe $600…is not a good approach.  I plan to replace BOTH when one fails….and have budgeted for it.

The other alternative is a lower priced different brand.  There are issues where the duct between the two units might need to be physically blocked and the units are AC only (or maybe HP?).  But their individual thermostat is in each unit and your Aquahot or Furnace needs to have the entire MPX network retained and installed…otherwise…no heat or adding an up the wall rtaxt and two thermostat..

Read up and understand….then lay out the program and be aware of the costs and limitations…

Tom:  I replaced a Penguin on my 08 dynasty last summer.  I have the 5 button CC.  I was able to replace the control board in the new unit with a conversion board that I located at at a Camper world in LaFayette, La.  If one can find that conversion board, the 5 button CC will still work.  I did the same  thing on the bedroom a/c about 3 years ago. However I understand those conversion boards are hard to find.  I know at some point (if I live long enough) I will have to "bite the bullet" and change over to the CC2.

[Bill R]

5 hours ago, birdshill123 said:

Walmart Has Dometic Roof AC's Half Price+Free Shipping
 

$1029 plus tax. Free shipping.

Bruce - Thank you for sharing.  I may be in need of one of these.

 

On 8/24/2023 at 11:01 AM, Tom Cherry said:

They sell a retrofit kit for $200 or so and it takes a tech an hour or so to remove the CC2 and put in the CC (salvage it controller.

Tom - Currently I have two Penguin II (front and back) with the CC 5 button thermostat (actually EasyTouch RV357).  Are you saying if I purchased a new Dometic set up for CCC2 thermostat I would have to buy the retrofit kit no matter what?  Or can I just take the existing board in the Penguin II I and install that on the new unit?  Or do I have to do both?

[Tom Cherry]

4 hours ago, Bobbyboy said:

Tom:  I replaced a Penguin on my 08 dynasty last summer.  I have the 5 button CC.  I was able to replace the control board in the new unit with a conversion board that I located at at a Camper world in LaFayette, La.  If one can find that conversion board, the 5 button CC will still work.  I did the same  thing on the bedroom a/c about 3 years ago. However I understand those conversion boards are hard to find.  I know at some point (if I live long enough) I will have to "bite the bullet" and change over to the CC2.

Those “conversation kits” are still out there and Domeitc, I think many shops and online vendors still sells them.  We went down this route several times and as long as you hang on to the OEM CC2 controller and can do the install, then all you are out…and maybe you can eventually get half for it on eBay, is the board.  But, if you have to pay a tech and don’t hang onto the OEM board and then swap it back…it is costly.  And THAT has happened where folks did not understand…had repairs made on the road…and then when they upgraded…it cost them more.

My only point…be aware of the pathways.  Decide on your skill set vs a dealer or tech.  Understand that the older CC boards are failing.  I think (a dangerous thing) that Dometic still supplies them.  But then do you convert the next unit?  What happens if the 5 button (min $175 for a refurb and $350 for a MicroAiir) fails and it will NOT work on the CC2……..all options and be smart enough to understand the parameters and the nuances….then make the call.  Several years ago, the 5 buttons rarely failed and were plentiful….but now?  

Certainly not knocking or besmirching what you did nor why…but the age and landscape is changing…more older CC board failing.  Used to be very rare…not so…not a tsunami….but there are issues potentially brewing…

[Bill R]

@Tom Cherry Thanks Tom.  I sent you a PM.

[Bobbyboy]

Tom:  Here is the question I have:  When I replaced my units and put in the conversion board I kept the boards that came with the new unit.  Of course those were geared to the CCII thermostat/controller.  Now if my five button goes out and I have to replace it with the new CCII thermostat I assumed all I had to do was take out the conversion boards and replace with the original boards that came with the unit (which were set up for the CCII).  The units are daisy chained and I assume the communication cables would be the same.  Am I correct or out in left field?  I respect your opinion  as much as I respect the guru Frank.  I know the day is coming when I will face the Five button failure. Changing the boards themselves is no big deal;  have done all three already.  Thanks again for your insight.

 

Bob L, 08 dynasty

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, Bobbyboy said:

Tom:  Here is the question I have:  When I replaced my units and put in the conversion board I kept the boards that came with the new unit.  Of course those were geared to the CCII thermostat/controller.  Now if my five button goes out and I have to replace it with the new CCII thermostat I assumed all I had to do was take out the conversion boards and replace with the original boards that came with the unit (which were set up for the CCII).  The units are daisy chained and I assume the communication cables would be the same.  Am I correct or out in left field?  I respect your opinion  as much as I respect the guru Frank.  I know the day is coming when I will face the Five button failure. Changing the boards themselves is no big deal;  have done all three already.  Thanks again for your insight.

 

Bob L, 08 dynasty

Late.  Just got your PM.  

As long as you do the complete conversion BACK to the original CC2, obviously in all 3, then you should be fine.  The OEM boards were designed to work on the CC2 MPX control system.  Just make sure they go back in correctly….there is some “wiring mods” to get the conversion kit to work.  Obviously if you or the techs got the conversion to work properly, then someone did it correctly and meticulously.  Same deal on Reinstall.  

Then, decision time.  Use the CC2 from Dometic or the MicroAir.  I’m a bit prejudiced.  If there is a “mis wired” issue, then you have a better shot at Lippert/Domtic  trouble shooting assistance.  They, in my opinion, will, possibly…who knows, punt as they do not know or perhaps care that the MicroAir is a “reverse engineered” clone of their CC2.  And MicroAir says you “must have a good, functional CC2 control circuit”.  Therein lies the dilemma.  We just had a failure on a CC system.  All was well and working, until it wasn’t.  Then MicroAiir folks said probably not our issue…but we’ll send a new unit.  Admirable.  But the problem was the front CC module.  It died.  Old age…and we are seeing that a bit more.  Once the member diagnosed it….new CC and all was well.

Now, from a diagnostic point of view.  You can plug in either the Dometic/oCC2 OR a MicroAir Thermostat to any unit….make it a stand alone….no outgoing or daisy chained data cable.  You test each one.  Bingo, they all obviously OK….after you reset each time to do the handshake and reboot, if they all work independently, then the issue has to be data cable connection or maybe a bad male phone connector or perhaps a short like a Monaco “staple” shot INTO the cable, rather than around it.

So, just be aware that if it is a real issue….then perhaps Dometic would be more involved if it was ALL their components.  But, some folks like the features of the MicroAit…so that would be the only Caveat….

Just hypothetical, but I like to understand the options and the resources….and hope I don’t have an issue…

Hope this answers your question and also provides insight.  Fully understanding how it works and the need for a 100% OEM reinstall is what makes it easier to make the call.  Good Luck.

[Bobbyboy]

Thanks Tom.  Appreciate the info.  Sometimes I think having each unit with independent thermostat like here at home would be the better option.  I will cross that bridge when I get to it;  hopefully in the not near future.

 

Bob L, 08 dynasty

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Bobbyboy said:

Thanks Tom.  Appreciate the info.  Sometimes I think having each unit with independent thermostat like here at home would be the better option.  I will cross that bridge when I get to it;  hopefully in the not near future.

 

Bob L, 08 dynasty

Great wannee…not attainable unless you can get data cables to each Thermostat.  Also if a Thermostat Is in same room the AC is controlling, then gotta disable the remote sensors.  The remotes do the temperature sensing and the thermostat reacts and MPX’s with each unit.  If THAT is a priority, then evaluate the MicrAir as I think it BT’s to your phone, but the single or if you have 2 Thermostats, do the heavy lifting.  It is NOT possible to put Multiple Thermostats on one system.  If you have a single Thermostat in the bedroom, there is no data cable connection to the front 2 unit system

[Bobbyboy]

You are correct; I forgot the problem of new data cables and how  to route them.  And not interested in blue tooth .  Thanks again

 

Bob L, 08 dynasty

[Bill R]

3 hours ago, Bobbyboy said:

And not interested in blue tooth .

Bob - FYI, the MicroAir also can work on WiFi.  Love this feature, if you have WiFi at the coach you can adjust the A/C no matter where you are.  Usually if we are gone for the day and heading back, I will adjust the T-stat to have the coach cooled down upon our arrival.  Just a nice perk.

[Ivan K]

2 hours ago, Bill R said:

Bob - FYI, the MicroAir also can work on WiFi.  Love this feature, if you have WiFi at the coach you can adjust the A/C no matter where you are.  Usually if we are gone for the day and heading back, I will adjust the T-stat to have the coach cooled down upon our arrival.  Just a nice perk.

I also like that I can control it from the driver seat and it reports inside temperature to my phone if we were to leave the dog behind. Never do but could. 

[bhsl8]

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, bhsl8 said:

OK…

Yes, assuming you have a 4 or 5 button Thermostat and it has data or “phone” cables when you pull down the interior cover and look up, you can replace it with a new Dometic system.  If you have two thermostats, you will need two so it will be an uograde…same for one.

Get the current model numbers from your existing units and take a picture of the thermostat.

Call Lippert and follow the prompts to the Dometic tech support.  I would upgrade a 13.5KW if you have a mixture to a “all” 15KW as my two 15’s are barely adequates for my 40 ft.  It you had ample cooling….your call.  You may not have had heat pump models, but I recommend them.  But, if you live in the deep south and never use or want the HP, then go with the AC only.  The Dometic folks will tell you exactly what you have and recommend the new units and give you the model number and the thermostat model.  

There are “two” different units.  The Penguin II and another one, perhaps with a higher capacity called a Blizzard NXT. We have had folks upgrade or choose these and they say the airflow is better and quieter…. If they have a suitable model in the NON Penguin product line….get those numbers.  They use the same CC2 or new MPX system.  I think they are interchangeable but do not know the price differential.  Now you have all you need.  

I would google “difference between Penguin II & Blizzard NXT.  Here is one resource.  Ask Dometic….

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f54/blizzard-nxt-vs-penguin-ii-298438.html

OK…then get quotes on the series that you elected or both..That’s it…not hard…just laying out the process.  I plan to do that exactly and have a tech already selected when one of mine fails.  I am sticking with the new CCW Dometic thermostat.

That is the way you should handle it.  We have many great posters with a wealth of knowledge, but since Dometic is always changing, I will let them tell me exactly the right models or PN…even though I have notes from a conversation a few years ago and the tech answered my questions to verify my knowledge.  Also explained what I thought I knew so I was confident when I helped others.

[bhsl8]

Thank you Tom. That’s exactly what I needed. 
 

Brouck Sleight 

2002 Dynasty 

2020 Explorer ST

2022 Indian Pursuit