Please advise... do I need a complete head rebuild?

[Robert92867]

I thought I was going to get away with surfacing the head, but after getting into lapping the valve, and finding excessive slop in the valve guides, it would appear that I need new valve guides drilled in and pressed, new valve seats, valve seats cut. I haven't tested the springs, but seeing how many valve guide bores are out of tolerance I wouldn't be surprised.  #4 Exhaust valve "B" looks heavily pitted, the rest may suffice to be reground, although replacing might be cheaper.  To the best of my knowledge, Cummins USA doesn't make drill-in interference fit valve guides for the 5.9 24 valve, the Cummins service manual says "replace the head".  But there are aftermarket valve guides made by reputable companies,  such as SBI and Goodson (and some not-so-reputable).  Goodson also makes the tooling (pilot drill and reamer and press tool) for their valve guides. I will get Caliber Diesel, in Ontario to look at it Monday.  Remanufactured head, with new head castings are also and option, but often put together with the cheapest of parts.

[DavidL]

4 minutes ago, Robert92867 said:

I thought I was going to get away with surfacing the head, but after getting into lapping the valve, and finding excessive slop in the valve guides, it would appear that I need new valve guides drilled in and pressed, new valve seats, valve seats cut. I haven't tested the springs, but seeing how many valve guide bores are out of tolerance I wouldn't be surprised.  #4 Exhaust valve "B" looks heavily pitted, the rest may suffice to be reground, although replacing might be cheaper.  To the best of my knowledge, Cummins USA doesn't make drill-in interference fit valve guides for the 5.9 24 valve, the Cummins service manual says "replace the head".  But there are aftermarket valve guides made by reputable companies,  such as SBI and Goodson (and some not-so-reputable).  Goodson also makes the tooling (pilot drill and reamer and press tool) for their valve guides. I will get Caliber Diesel, in Ontario to look at it Monday.  Remanufactured head, with new head castings are also and option, but often put together with the cheapest of parts.

I don't know the specifics of that head, but if it ain't right, now's the time to fix it.  Don't put it back together until you know all parts are sound.

Sounds like you are doing good work and research.

Edited September 16, 2023 by DavidL

[jacwjames]

X2 on fixing it right, now is the time as the hard part is done "you've started".   If you have a good core and a shop that can repair it that might be the way to go, depending on price. 

I assume there would be some sort of warranty, although sometimes these aren't worth the paper they are written on BUT a shop that offers a warranty indicates they may have some skills that they are willing to stand behind. 

Good Luck

[Rikadoo]

So good morning to all, well robert this cyl head sounds like its in very poor shape, just how many miles has this rig have on it? And to what was the reason why you took it off? As for repair or replace, if you bought a new head what kind of warranty comes along with it? When you mention the repair process im reminded of when i found a place to repair my alternator vs new, its all well and good to invest in the shops that rebuild things( i am a mechanic of over 50 years) however… If something WAS to happen on the road, then where is that shop when your in nowhere USA??? Dont get me wrong i will always choose to invest in the trades when at all possable, except when it comes to having to use a shop because of proximity rather than choice that could leave me at the mercy of yet some shop with unknown abilitys. My advise on this repair is to go with the Cummins part, mostly cause Cummins has been in bussiness quite awhile an “for me” i know they build quality parts, the same with other manufactures however especially in todays markets of part availabiltys your never really sure of the quality of parts your getting, much of which are coming from other countrys that dont use the same “specs” though they look identical. I could go on an on, but i will leave it at this, the best machinist in the world could be undermined by one wrong part that he may have to use because of a supply chain issue, an if your engine sucks a valve cause a keeper or  a guide failure are they willing to stand behind there repair… 

[Robert92867]

128,000 miles.  Cummins engines have a reputation for high mileage, but this is a relatively low power ISB 5.9 (260hp) pushing 26k lbs (with toad) so maybe working harder than a IS/C/L/X/M with a higher GVW. The reason I pulled the head was coolant leaking off the side of #1 cylinder.  The head was not warped (.002 max feeler gauge under a 3' straight edge) and none of the valves or pushrods are bent.

Cummins does not make valve guides for this motor. the guides are integral with the head casting and the Cummins shop manual simply says to replace the head if guides are out of spec.  Cummins no longer sells heads for this 22 y.o. engine either. Because of the millions of Dodge-Cummins trucks on the road, a thriving aftermarket does exist.  Cummins has authorized CDEC in China to manufacture parts for the ISB under their banner, and "Genuine Cummins" often means made in Guangdon China.

Finding a knowlegable shop to do the work does worry me.

 

[dl_racing427]

1 hour ago, Robert92867 said:

128,000 miles.  Cummins engines have a reputation for high mileage, but this is a relatively low power ISB 5.9 (260hp) pushing 26k lbs (with toad) so maybe working harder than a IS/C/L/X/M with a higher GVW. The reason I pulled the head was coolant leaking off the side of #1 cylinder.  The head was not warped (.002 max feeler gauge under a 3' straight edge) and none of the valves or pushrods are bent.

Cummins does not make valve guides for this motor. the guides are integral with the head casting and the Cummins shop manual simply says to replace the head if guides are out of spec.  Cummins no longer sells heads for this 22 y.o. engine either. Because of the millions of Dodge-Cummins trucks on the road, a thriving aftermarket does exist.  Cummins has authorized CDEC in China to manufacture parts for the ISB under their banner, and "Genuine Cummins" often means made in Guangdon China.

Finding a knowlegable shop to do the work does worry me.

 

Those 5.9's are common as dirt.
Find a shop that specializes in diesel pickups, and that has a good reputation among local Dodge groups.
It's not that complicated to ream and install valve guides, as well as a standard valve job.
Aftermarket should have you covered as far as valves, springs, retainers and keepers.

Good luck.

[Robert92867]

Thanks for all your input.  I decided to cut my losses and ordered a complete assembled head from Fleece.  Fleece checks all the right boxes:

Specialized in Dodge-Cummins, Duramax, & Powerstroke.

Modern CNC tooling.

Clean factory.

Also build Diesel racing engines.

Good looking shipping crate!

[dl_racing427]

2 hours ago, Robert92867 said:

Thanks for all your input.  I decided to cut my losses and ordered a complete assembled head from Fleece.  Fleece checks all the right boxes:

Specialized in Dodge-Cummins, Duramax, & Powerstroke.

Modern CNC tooling.

Clean factory.

Also build Diesel racing engines.

Good looking shipping crate!

Curious, what was the cost?

[Robert92867]

$2599 +tax, +freight, +insurance... total 2800.  Does not include rocker arms or injectors. Does upgrade freeze plugs under the rocker cover to threaded and bumps up stock springs from 78 to 100#.

[jacwjames]

Looks good.

No idea of the price, I've been out of the loop on this type of item, but you have to assume this company is competitive and that they do quality work.  Shipping crate is a good indication of what the final results might be.

 

 

I use to (a life time ago) be involved in maintenance in underground mines.  Large diesel engines, we'd track all costs and hours so we could determine how we were taking care of equipment.  Use to get the engines rebuilt from local shops, Cummins, Cat, Deuts, Detroit.  Back 35 years ago a rebuild was ~$30K.  I started to question the quality of rebuilds for the mine I managed so I started insisting that the shops would notify me when the engine was run on a dyno and I'd go watch them run.  Amazing how the quality improved. 

Good luck

[Robert92867]

The cylinder head arrived from Fleece.  Very nice quality, had I not measured .004 milled from the combustion surface, I would have believed it to be a new casting.  Assembly ongoing, slowly.  I noticed this morning yet another subtle difference in quality from original 2001 Genuine Cummins and the 2019 "Genuine Cummins" (made in China) crossover tubes.

[dl_racing427]

19 hours ago, Robert92867 said:

The cylinder head arrived from Fleece.  Very nice quality, had I not measured .004 milled from the combustion surface, I would have believed it to be a new casting.  Assembly ongoing, slowly.  I noticed this morning yet another subtle difference in quality from original 2001 Genuine Cummins and the 2019 "Genuine Cummins" (made in China) crossover tubes.

I'd be tempted to chamfer the orifices to match the originals.

[Robert92867]

Slow but steady progress.

[dl_racing427]

18 hours ago, Robert92867 said:

Slow but steady progress.

Now that you mention it I recall I did have a hard time locating that flange when I replaced my exhaust.
I finally found one by matching up the old one at a truck supply place, but that was years ago.

[Robert92867]

Extracting a pipe plug, using a cool trick i read about back in July in one of Brad H. posts...

[jacwjames]

You definitely have it going your way, you've got some real talent and/or your persistent. 

The heat from the weld helped with the plug. 

[Robert92867]

Not impressed with FASS...

[dl_racing427]

You don't need the check valve with the FASS system, it's self priming.

I'd just change that 90* fitting to gain a little clearance.  It's likely screwed in way too tight, hope it doesn't crack the housing.

[Rikadoo]

So like it was said, you do not need the check valve, as for the harness it does not connect to the ECM, if your tying the signil wire of the FASS to the old lift pump, thats not how it is to be wired. I know the circuit to the old lift pump is not seeing a load it will illuminate the check eng light. So for that old circuit i wired in a “go nowhere do nothing” relay to fool the ECM. i wired the activator fass pump relay to the air drier circuit so when the key is on the pump just runs and yes it is a tight fit from the fitting to the filter can, if its too tight then i suggest adding a extension for more clearence. I can honestly say the FASS on my coach has transformed my performance of my rig, two things come to mind, the smooth idel which allows me the ability to use my side mirrors at idle now, the second is how easy it starts. 
the only thing extra i have done was to add a fuel pressure gauge so i can tell what pressure is doing as filters start to have issues.

[Robert92867]

Sorry gents, I beg to differ. The brass flange elbow fitting supplied by FASS is only catching 3 threads, and they look ragged, like they were cut on a Harbor Freight machine tool.  I notice the fitting pictured in Rik's post has what appears to be a Parker steel jic flange elbow fitting, higher quality machined threads.  As for the OEM check valve, the purpose was to prevent fuel from siphoning back, not because the OEM Carter lift pump wasn't self priming. I do understand the purpose of a interposing relay. 27 years as a heavy industry electrician in the IBEW.

You guys have CAPS injection pumps.  The lowly ISB 5.9 has a VP-44 injection pump (a real piece of shyte) that operates differently.  The lift pump runs all the time the engine is running.  The lift pump is a 12DC output direct from the ECM.  The stock lift pump draws less than 4 amps no load, the Fass pump (mine is only 100 gph) draws 6 amps no load, figuring 150 % inrush current, the FASS could blow the ECM fuse.  So the interposing relay will be fired by the ECM, enabling a separate Key-On circuit.

[Robert92867]

3 hours ago, Rikadoo said:

So like it was said, you do not need the check valve, as for the harness it does not connect to the ECM, if your tying the signil wire of the FASS to the old lift pump, thats not how it is to be wired. I know the circuit to the old lift pump is not seeing a load it will illuminate the check eng light. So for that old circuit i wired in a “go nowhere do nothing” relay to fool the ECM. i wired the activator fass pump relay to the air drier circuit so when the key is on the pump just runs and yes it is a tight fit from the fitting to the filter can, if its too tight then i suggest adding a extension for more clearence. I can honestly say the FASS on my coach has transformed my performance of my rig, two things come to mind, the smooth idel which allows me the ability to use my side mirrors at idle now, the second is how easy it starts. 
the only thing extra i have done was to add a fuel pressure gauge so i can tell what pressure is doing as filters start to have issues.Rik, did you abandon-in-place the old lift pump and fuel lines? I don't quite know what I'm seeing here.

 

[Rikadoo]

Hey Bob good morning, so the last pic shows i had cut the wire leading to the lift pump, an the sacraficial relay that is only there to fool the ECM. 
Ok so if i remember right the fass uses a power relay within the harness ( i do a lot of custom automotive wiring an frankley cant remember) anyway due to the power requirements coming off from the key on power from the circuit of the air drier, i used a automotive relay connected that uses that key on power as the signil wire to operate the relay coil. From there the other side of the relay (connector 30 and 83) supply 12 volt power to the pump using the 10 amp fuse required by fass. The only other thing i did was to install a momitary switch that is right next to my fass pump so that when i replace the filters i can operate the switch for priming which eliminates a second person leaving the key in the on position.

I build circuits like that due to needing a switching circuit an not wanting to (over load) the system im scabbing the signil from (ECM)

[Robert92867]

11 hours ago, Rikadoo said:

Hey Bob good morning, so the last pic shows i had cut the wire leading to the lift pump, an the sacraficial relay that is only there to fool the ECM. 
Ok so if i remember right the fass uses a power relay within the harness ( i do a lot of custom automotive wiring an frankley cant remember) anyway due to the power requirements coming off from the key on power from the circuit of the air drier, i used a automotive relay connected that uses that key on power as the signil wire to operate the relay coil. From there the other side of the relay (connector 30 and 83) supply 12 volt power to the pump using the 10 amp fuse required by fass. The only other thing i did was to install a momitary switch that is right next to my fass pump so that when i replace the filters i can operate the switch for priming which eliminates a second person leaving the key in the on position.

I build circuits like that due to needing a switching circuit an not wanting to (over load) the system im scabbing the signil from (ECM)

I like the idea of a bypass switch.  Since it would be in the battery compartment, I'm thinking small marine weatherproof disconnect (on-off).  I scoured my schmatics for a key-on circuit.  Nothing back there unless I cut into the circuit going to the ECM, or run another conductor from the front run bay.  So I'm going to stick with the interposing relay fired off the ECM and use a hot battery circuit for power supply. I've stripped out the old lift pump and the engine mounted filter.  Nice to be able to access that area easily now that its wide open. Does your HR have the ISC 8.3? If you have an Air Dryer, I suspect you have air brakes. I wasn't aware the Air Dryer needed power.

[Rikadoo]

The Air Drier has power to the internal Tstat in that its used for a heater element, when it sences freezing temps it turns on to eliminate freezing.

My coach had no system in the back for key on power or fused battery power.To be sure it a “busy” electrical closet however in the top right is the 6 gang fuse box… half is battery power, the other half is key on power. I needed  power taps for several different options, “TPMS transponder, trailer tow charge wire,FASS pump, it just made sence to have a fuse box that accommodated my needs…

 

[Robert92867]

11 hours ago, Rikadoo said:

The Air Drier has power to the internal Tstat in that its used for a heater element, when it sences freezing temps it turns on to eliminate freezing.

My coach had no system in the back for key on power or fused battery power.To be sure it a “busy” electrical closet however in the top right is the 6 gang fuse box… half is battery power, the other half is key on power. I needed  power taps for several different options, “TPMS transponder, trailer tow charge wire,FASS pump, it just made sence to have a fuse box that accommodated my needs…

 

Looks like everything is nicely labeled. Getting back to heated air... starting to make sense.  It is critical to the operation of the air brakes to be supplied with dry air, to keep the brake actuators from locking up in a freeze.