1998 Cummins N14 mated to Allison HD4060 - Need Allison Serial Number.

[Frank C. Brants]

This is going to be a bit of an odd request.

I have a 1998 Monaco Signature, no slides, with a Cummins N14 & an Eaton CEEMAT 9 speed transmission with a cracked case.  The Eaton CEEMAT is no longer being serviced by the one company I found that works on them.

So, my best option is to purchase a Reman Allison HD4060 & all of the kit that goes with it.  In order to find the right model, I need a serial number from a comparable unit.

So, if you have a comparable setup, may I borrow your serial number to give to the nice folks over at https://www.transaxle.com/ so they can find me a new transmission?

Thank you!!
Franko
 

[vito.a]

Wow, I sure hope you get it fixed.  I hear good things about the Eaton CEEMAT transmission.  Nine gears would be nice.

[Frank C. Brants]

On 11/16/2023 at 1:31 PM, vito.a said:

Wow, I sure hope you get it fixed.  I hear good things about the Eaton CEEMAT transmission.  Nine gears would be nice.

Thanks, but my goal is to replace it with an Allison HD4060, IF I can find a valid serial number, which will allow the nice folks over at https://www.transaxle.com/ to find the correct model of the HD4060 that Roadmaster used with the Cummins N14 engine.

[just for fun]

Hi there, I found this. It's not the 4060 and the Allison site will help to check the gear ratios for the HD4560p for comparison to the 4060. The PTO on top can be removed and covered with a factory plate. The add doesn't mention the pad or controller for the conversion which you would need even for the 4060. Shot in the dark but thats the best I can do with a belly full of Turkey half asleep. Happy Thanksgiving btw

Opps, I did say half asleep. "1995 Allison N14 (Stock # P-879)" copy and paste this

[Frank C. Brants]

12 hours ago, just for fun said:

Hi there, I found this. It's not the 4060 and the Allison site will help to check the gear ratios for the HD4560p for comparison to the 4060. The PTO on top can be removed and covered with a factory plate. The add doesn't mention the pad or controller for the conversion which you would need even for the 4060. Shot in the dark but thats the best I can do with a belly full of Turkey half asleep. Happy Thanksgiving btw

Opps, I did say half asleep. "1995 Allison N14 (Stock # P-879)" copy and paste this

Ok, I believe I found the listing you're referring to:

https://truckpartsinventory.com/part-details/82461698/used-1995-allison-hd4560p-transmissio-ssy-for-sale

Thank you, that's a start.

[just for fun]

I hope it helps. You said the case had a crack in it. Did an internal part cause the crack or was there an impact on the exterior from the drive shaft breaking or other? I've been in the world of transmission repair for a long time, past experience has shown me that OEM is always best and much less problematic, although sometimes difficult to source parts and all the goodies. I have seen many HD transmission with cracked cases from major internal failure ( rare ) to more common exterior impacts from drive shafts ( u joints breaking ) and the drive shaft beating the crap out of the tail housing, then the high centering and broken bell housings.

I have more often than not been able to have the case welded  ( aluminum or Cast iron) if the welder knows what he's doing and the repair work just fine. These cases are hearty and not diminutive little things. You can repair them, all of the force applied to them is rotational not bending. keep in mind I'm not a know it all and don't know the extent of your damage so my advise is only based on the cases I've encountered. Many shops like the big boys woun't mess with things like this. they like straight forward replacements. Keep life simple, finding someone who wants to experiment with swaps on a vehicle that big even if a book or manual says that combo has been used is risky. I don't and wount do it, I've got into too many things that at first seemed really straight forward and made sense only to tie up my shop and cause many headaches as well as just pissing the customer off because I'm the pro, I should know all these things. That coach is too big to take apart and try to put back together with things that were not there before, just because that donor transmission fits behind the engine doesnt mean it belongs there. Theres lots of cars sitting on sides of garages that are projects just like that, yours is what 30,000+ pounds. Can't just push it back in the garage and take another stab at it. I may be able to help you find parts if you want that a rebuilder can install. There are may companies in Texas that have older transmission parts for Eaton due to oil field rigs of that age still running around there.

[Frank C. Brants]

5 hours ago, just for fun said:

I hope it helps. You said the case had a crack in it. Did an internal part cause the crack or was there an impact on the exterior from the drive shaft breaking or other?

Thanks Dave, this should put things in perspective.

I'm in the process of rebuilding the N14 in this beastie (it had a rod knock & pulling the pan revealed vertical scoring in cylinder #1) & we had a mishap while raising it up on jack stands - we had it up at the height we wanted it & I decided I wanted another layer of safety to fall back on, just in case something broke - the jack stands were mounted under the forward (drive axle) set of vertical trailing arm / drag link supports visible between the drive & tag axles, so the wheels were dangling in the air.  The frame sits directly on top of (and is secured to) this vertical support beam, so it's very sturdy. 

I decided to raise the drive axle up & put cribbing underneath it, to give it a place to land if something broke.  We had raised the motorhome up on the air suspension earlier in the day, so I was providing air into the emergency supply port in the front & the air system was fully charged @ 120 PSI.  I forgot that I had left the key on (to deflate the air bags), so when I raised the rear axle up to put cribbing under the wheels, the ride height valves started to inflate the air bags.  I didn't notice it until the bottle jack (placed with the intention of JUST raising the dangling axle) got driven into the wooden cribbing.  My first thought was to turn the key off, which I did, but it became unstable & fell off the jacks.  When it fell, some of the cribbing crushed the CEEMAT oil pan.  I later found a large crack, which I though was the transmission case, but I've since determined was actually the bell housing.

So, considering the stock transmission is an unserviceable rebuilt CEEMAT (model # & serial number unknown, see the BLANK data plate installed by https://www.transgearllc.com/) with a crushed oil pan (we've confirmed it IS an oil pan & not a valve body) & cracked bell housing, I'm going to try to repair the damage, but I will definitely try to swap the transmission with a HD4060, if I can find the right one.

The one thing I do have going for me is this - this motorhome is stored in a facility that used to be an RV repair facility, so I have plenty of room to work, I have power, a working head, a way to lock everything up, and all of the time I need.

Photos were taken after it dropped & we raised it back up again - we switched from wooden cribbing to 1/4" wall 4" by 4" square steel tubing.  I'll post a better photo of the bell housing when we drop the engine & transmission.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Frank C. Brants
Edited for clarity.

[Frank C. Brants]

Ok, warning to the squeamish - images of elder (motorhome) abuse follow... it's still hard for me to look at...

The jack stand under the front axle, passenger side, got hung & this motorhome stayed like that for two weeks waiting for the correct equipment (lifting air bags) to arrive.  Amazingly enough, we have found zero evidence of any damage to the frame.  This model does NOT have slides, so that could have made a difference.

[Ivan K]

Wow, I feel for you. Pretty nightmarish. Wouldn't it be easier to cut the rear 'bumper' and pull it out now? Did you need it that high for an inframe if that's what you were going to do? Either way, some project. Stay safe!

[Frank C. Brants]

3 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

Wow, I feel for you. Pretty nightmarish. Wouldn't it be easier to cut the rear 'bumper' and pull it out now? Did you need it that high for an inframe if that's what you were going to do? Either way, some project. Stay safe!

We thought about going that route, but I still (even after dropping the d*** thing...) feel that raising it up & dropping the engine & trans is the better route - especially since I may be upgrading the pistons to Speed of Air pistons (Google them if you're not familiar - huge fuel economy boost & significant emissions reduction) at a later date & I wanted to be able to pull the engine at will.  The gentleman helping me is an experienced welder, so we're building "permanent" jack stands out of 1/4" wall, 4" BY 4" square tubing - the motorhome will be on the (fully braced, supported in all directions, zero chance of falling) permanent jack stands before we start working on it.

BTW, it's worth noting that the images at the TOP were taken AFTER it was dropped, then lifted back up.  That's where we are now. 
The second set of images (with the wooden cribbing) were taken before & immediately after it dropped. 

As mentioned before, one jack stand got hung under the front right wheel.  It presented a difficult problem, as we had to raise the front axle up enough the remove the jack stand, but we didn't have a level (jackable) surface to work with.

This company saved our bacon:

https://rentaltoolsonline.com/rental-tools-online-pneumatic-and-hydraulic-lifting-s-251/heavy-lift-air-bags-s-204.htm

The airbags pushed the motorhome up & away from the jack stand, allowing us to remove it when it was released, then gently lower the (beleaguered & abused) motorhome back onto level ground.

[just for fun]

WOW !! You have some very big, Very shinny balls. Thank god knowone was hurt. I looks like it's definitely high enough now, I always get uncomfortable working around airbags especially on my pig. It's got a mind of it's own it seems. I keep mine in my shop as well and have all the goodies to keep it off my head and wont go near the bottom unless I've got jacks on the frame with the wheels dangling. I look at your pics and get chills, my wife would cut my nuggets off if she found out this happened to me. For some reason I want to scold you. I can see by your setup tho that you  do know what your doing and more than just a tinkerer, sometimes stuff happens and the bigger the stuff your working on the bigger the stuff is when it happens.

The crack in the bell housing looks like a good one for sure, without seeing the entirety of it I wouldn't rule out welding it. I've had some pretty big cracks fixed. As long as the welder knows what he's doing and stitch welds it without blasting on one part to much, the case stays true. I still have several 3000's but no 4000's. I'm not the definitive Allison guy, I have to ask why the 4060 versus the 4000 or even 3000. I've never seem a 3000 come apart In vehicles with multi pto ,tank trucks hauling way more weight than either of our coaches. The worst I've seen is lockup clutch burning and the usual suspects and even that is when they are in the 400k miles range. Darn tough transmissions.

Have you thought of just buying a takeout engine and trans combo from a hot rod monster with all the controllers and fix'ns. Your sure eyeball deep in it and fearless enough for it. I think for Christmas I'll send you a helmet and body armor so we can all  watch you get this moose to conclusion.

[Frank C. Brants]

31 minutes ago, just for fun said:

I'm not the definitive Allison guy, I have to ask why the 4060 versus the 4000 or even 3000. I've never seem a 3000 come apart In vehicles with multi pto ,tank trucks hauling way more weight than either of our coaches. The worst I've seen is lockup clutch burning and the usual suspects and even that is when they are in the 400k miles range. Darn tough transmissions.

My reason for looking for a HD4060 Vs. a 4000 is the fact that any time I found a motorhome of this vintage...

(I've been looking for this beastie for 10 years, so I've read a LOT of MH specs on RVTrader)

...with a Cummins N14, it was mated to a HD4060.  I believe the N14 develops more torque than the 4000 is rated for.  I've seen later versions of larger engines mated to the 4000, but by then, the engine management computers were sophisticated enough to limit engine torque to prevent overloading the transmission. 

Trust me, it still gives me shivers, watching the replay in my head of that motorhome falling over, knowing I had been under it all day long.  It was a tough lesson to learn & I'm doing everything I possibly can going forward to minimize the risk.

Wait until you see our "permanent" (used when we're working under the motorhome) jack stands - 1/4" wall, 4 by 4 square steel tubing with 80,000 PSI rating.  That helps me sleep a little better at night.  I would love to have a set of column lifts, but at $45k to $80k, they're way outside of my budget for this project.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Frank C. Brants

[just for fun]

You have certainly done your homework sounds like. This kinds stuff is difficult to mix and match, you'd think it would be easier. I do have to thank you for posting those pictures and I hope everyone can see just how dangerous messing with these big guys is, know matter how well it may appear to be supported. I'm still look'n at those pics and gett'n chills. It'll be interesting to see the progress, please post periodic updates. Now I gotta get the vision of that monster coming down off that blocking. &#@(# WOW, thats the PG version of what I wanna say.

[jacwjames]

I am glad no one got hurt and/or the building rood didn't come down with the post sustaining damage like that.  Really surprised the RV didn't sustain any significant damage, a true testament of the quality of the chassis design and construction

I worked in mining and the big loaders and trucks (+3X the weight of my coach) always had to be lifted and blocked to work on it.  We always used cross ties cut into manageable lengths and cribbed under each corner.   Cribs were usually ~4' square on the furthest out side corner as possible.   Cross ties were solid oak 8"X10", we bought them by the truck load since we used them for the rail haulage, fairly cheap and disposable. 

Have you contacted Visione RV in Kentucky, they are a huge RV salvage yard.  I was up there a couple weeks ago to buy a tranny cooler.  I asked the rep who helped me if they list everything they have on their website and he said "NO" way too many items.  He said if someone has a specific item they should contact them.  https://rvparts.visonerv.com/

Have you considered just putting in a paired engine & transmission.

Good Luck

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by jacwjames

[Frank C. Brants]

5 hours ago, jacwjames said:

  https://rvparts.visonerv.com/

Have you considered just putting in a paired engine & transmission.

Thanks Jim - yes, we were very fortunate to not get crushed by the motorhome OR the building.

I have checked with VisioneRV & they do have one HD4060 listed on their site that was pulled from a 1996 Blue Bird, which typically had a Detroit Diesel engine , but I need to find a serial number of a HD4060 that was mated to a Cummins N14.  There are so many variants of this transmission, so I would prefer to find an exact match, if possible.

I will give them a call to see if they have anything closer to what I'm looking for, thank you.

With the correct serial number, the folks at https://www.transaxle.com/ can sell me the exact (remanufactured back to factory new specs) transmission & hopefully most of the supporting hardware required.

My engine is relatively ok, possibly a dropped valve & a scored liner, but that's an easy fix.

As for cribbing - I was Ok with 4 by 4 wooden cribbing, and the accident was caused by this loose nut behind the keyboard lifting the axle up while the key was on & the air system fully charged, but this steel tubing we're using for cribbing now is just rock solid, as it's completely uniform.  That said, we're still building a "work stand" before we get back under that beast & start tugging & pulling...

Thank you!!

[Frank C. Brants]

Update - I've called Allison several times & followed their suggestions to call (several of) my local Allison distributers, but I have YET to find out which variant of the Allison HD4060 transmission was typically mated to the Cummins N14, so if you HAVE a Monaco Motorhome with a Cummins N14 mated to an Allison HD4060 transmission, PLEASE send me a PM with the serial number.  With That serial number, I Can get all of the parts I need to get this beastie back on the road again.

Thank you!!
Franko

[Ivan K]

Isn't this the info you need?

[Frank C. Brants]

3 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

Isn't this the info you need?

That MIGHT help - it's an Allison HD4560, not the HD4060, but it Might give Allison the info they need to Find the correct HD4060, thank you!!

I might even buy this one, as I do need all of the mating parts, AND a Core.

Thank Ivan!!

Franko