Need to add a dedicated 15 Amp circuit to support TRUE Induction cooktop. 2002 Windsor. Can it be done safely?

[richmelcole@sbcglobal.net]

I investigated my route for my new circuit for our induction cooktop.  The existing refrigerator circuit to the main panel is run through the ceiling.  I will disable that circuit and run from the main panel horizontally back to the bedroom TV cabinet, then down to the washer/dryer area, then horizontally forward to the kitchen slide out using the wire case along the floor, then route up along the countertop/cabinet to a new jbox containing a 20-amp combination switch/outlet under the sink along the cabinet wall.  I will use 12/2 MC Lite cable to make the run from the main circuit panel to the combination switch/outlet.  One question, can the MC Lite cable be used with screw type connections with the combination switch/outlet?

Richard

[waterskier_1]

1 hour ago, richmelcole@sbcglobal.net said:

I investigated my route for my new circuit for our induction cooktop.  The existing refrigerator circuit to the main panel is run through the ceiling.  I will disable that circuit and run from the main panel horizontally back to the bedroom TV cabinet, then down to the washer/dryer area, then horizontally forward to the kitchen slide out using the wire case along the floor, then route up along the countertop/cabinet to a new jbox containing a 20-amp combination switch/outlet under the sink along the cabinet wall.  I will use 12/2 MC Lite cable to make the run from the main circuit panel to the combination switch/outlet.  One question, can the MC Lite cable be used with screw type connections with the combination switch/outlet?

Richard

Look at SOOW wire.  You should be able to use Romex from the breaker panel to the J- Box on the coach side.  Then SOOW between the J- Boxes (flex connection between coach and slide).  Optionally, you could use SOOW for the entire run. 

  - Rick N 

[dennis.mcdonaugh]

On 11/28/2023 at 4:05 PM, richmelcole@sbcglobal.net said:

We have a 2002 Windsor 40PST.  Just replace our gas cooktop with a True two burner induction cooktop.  Want to run a new separate electrical circuit from the inverter subpanel located in the bedroom to the kitchen.  I would like to mount an outlet box with cutout switch under the cabinet near the front.  How do I fish a new romex wire from the subpanel to the kitchen?  What is the proper and safe way to wire the switch and outlet in the new box?  Also, I do not have a wiring diagram for a Windsor 40PST.  Thanks for your help.

Richard Cole

I installed an induction cooktop and used the outlet under the back of the propane cooktop. I removed the outlet and made it a junction box and extended the wires to a switch just inside the cabinet door. 

[jacwjames]

24 minutes ago, dennis.mcdonaugh said:

I installed an induction cooktop and used the outlet under the back of the propane cooktop. I removed the outlet and made it a junction box and extended the wires to a switch just inside the cabinet door. 

.I also have an outlet under my sink, intended to power the small Instahot water faucet at the sink.  I don't keep the insta hot plugged in, my wife sometimes like to use it but it's a waste of battery power if not on shore power. 

It is powered off the inverter, a 20 amp circuit on my coach.   Not sure if it powers any other outlets or not. 

I have a toaster oven plugged into that circuit but never use it unless on shore power or running the generator.

This would be a viable option, just have to remember to start generator when cooking if not on shore power.  That's what I do with the toaster oven. 

The idea of adding a switch makes sense also.  If it truely doesn't like MSW inverted power you could shut it off when not in use.

Edited December 4, 2023 by jacwjames

[Dr4Film]

24 minutes ago, dennis.mcdonaugh said:

I installed an induction cooktop and used the outlet under the back of the propane cooktop. I removed the outlet and made it a junction box and extended the wires to a switch just inside the cabinet door. 

Our induction cook-top is installed basically the same except that the wire from the cook-top is plugged into the outlet on the back wall of the cabinet. Plus it has a 120 VAC on/off switch wired in series that is mounted on the outside of the area just under the countertop.

[Tom Cherry]

On 12/3/2023 at 8:20 AM, richmelcole@sbcglobal.net said:

I investigated my route for my new circuit for our induction cooktop.  The existing refrigerator circuit to the main panel is run through the ceiling.  I will disable that circuit and run from the main panel horizontally back to the bedroom TV cabinet, then down to the washer/dryer area, then horizontally forward to the kitchen slide out using the wire case along the floor, then route up along the countertop/cabinet to a new jbox containing a 20-amp combination switch/outlet under the sink along the cabinet wall.  I will use 12/2 MC Lite cable to make the run from the main circuit panel to the combination switch/outlet.  One question, can the MC Lite cable be used with screw type connections with the combination switch/outlet?

Richard

@richmelcole@sbcglobal.net

This topic has been a bit of a controversy as well as a puzzle and I have talked to another moderator and we have reviewed it.  SO....and this goes for all the POSTERS.

• Monaco used a Dual In - Dual OUT configuration.  SO, assuming that the Trace RC-7 was adequate for this configuration, you DO have the potential for 30 amps on either side of the Sub Panel.  Jim J and I worked on a similiar project and I drew up the interior of the subpanel.  Here is the PDF of it. Pardon my hand drafting.
• From this, you can Refrigerator breaker (5) is on the same circuit as the Bathroom Rear GFCI.  Since each circuit is on a 20 Amp breaker, then the TRUE cooktop would be properly protected.
• The concern that we have is that we have NO experience with a Trace inverter being loaded to a full 30 amps, on each LEG....  However, if you have NOT had any issues with your internal (Kitchen #2 and Microwave #4) and have heavily loaded the system....then all should be good.  Again, that relies on Monaco's expertise and sometimes that has been to be less than "reliable".
• Monaco did install some 120 VAC induction units. However, they used (it varies), typically, the Microwave Circuit. An Intellitec 00-00144-000 Auto Energy Selector Module was used. The Microwave was the PRIMARY, but if there was a load or the Cooktop was on, then the Microwave would not work or have power.  PERHAPS, since these were SPECIAL orders, the factory chose this route as running the additional line would have been impossible....SO....THIS MIGHT BE AN ALTERNATIVE....ad adding the Intellitec module in the overhead where the Microwave is....was simple.  
• The ONE thing that sticks our or must be adhered to.  The run from the Refrigerator, as many have posted, can be a #12 Solid to whereever the line going (flexed or being bent) to the first junction box (of past it) on the Slide MUST be a Stranded #12 wire or cable.  
• I did contact Magnum and they offered this one thought....  IF there will be a brief period where the cooktop is running on inverted power...obviously there will be insufficient capacity...but they also caution that even brief periods have damaged induction cooktops....that was, they said especially true on the earlier Modified Sine Wave inverters....but probably NOT (note the lack of a DEFINITIVE NOT) with a pure sine wave unit.  The suggested or highly recommended that you contact TRUE and aprise them of the circuitry and ask them for guidance on the MSW or a PSW as even brief period can destroy circuitry.
• Thus, if you are going to the trouble of pulling a line from the Sub Panel and it is right beside the Main Panel, then reallocating the Block heater, changing the GFCI to a standard breaker (and probably NOT "messing" with the Block receptacle) might be a more reliable solution and avoid any damage to the cooktop.

That's pretty much it.  We, the staff, just wanted to make certain that all the concerns and such were laid out before you took action and wanted to post this before you proceed....for your review. In theory, it should work. Practically, Monaco NEVER did it this way, except with the Intellitec module...that that, oddly enough, did NOT avoid the issue of the compatibility of the inverter to the Cooktop, but did cut down on the load....with the downside....you can ONLY run ONE device on that circuit.

Good Luck and let it know how it goes.  One suggestion was to plug in the cooktop on the circuit (you may already have) with a temporary connection and 120 VAC male plug and test it to see if it works..  Use a Y adapter so that the Refrigerator and Cook Top are both on.  The Samsung will pull, per the specs and other posts, about 5 amps on startup...briefly...and then has a FLA of 3 amps....so 90% of the 20 amp breaker has been used...  Just an aside as a closing...

2002 Windsor Sub Panel Diagram.pdf

[richmelcole@sbcglobal.net]

Several have commented on the insta-hot electrical outlet under the sink.  That outlet is on the GGI circuit fed from the inverter sub-panel.

Richard

[Tom Cherry]

9 minutes ago, richmelcole@sbcglobal.net said:

Several have commented on the insta-hot electrical outlet under the sink.  That outlet is on the GGI circuit fed from the inverter sub-panel.

Richard

Yes, BUT....I'm GUESSING and you can verify.  That Insta Hot Outlet should be on the Sub Panel #2 GFCI breaker.  On that circuit is also the Microwave.  Add in the Lamp Table #8 Circuit.  Theoretically, as Monaco, I HOPE, designed it for DIVERSITY....the Microwave will pull approximately 15 Amps.  You have 30, potential for that L1 Circuit.  Therefore, you have 15 Amps to feed the other outlets....which also includes the Lamp Table or whatever....as it says OPTION.  Even if this outlet is there, the predicted load for running the Microwave (15) and your other appliances will load the L1 Circuit up....

Therefore, the TRUE Cook Top needs to be on the L2 Circuit.  That means that the Refrigerator will be the logical candidate. The ONLY concern I would have...is that the FLA of the Samsung does NOT exceed 5 Amps.  The TRUE will consume that, but there will not be an INDUCTIVE load, I suppose, on it like there is on the Samsung.

The brief "SPIKE" that is very difficult to see on a VOM when the Samsung starts up should NOT be long enough to pop the breaker.  YES, this will be a PUSH.  

NOW....I have NO IDEA of the interior layout....so just take this as CONCEPTUAL.  YOU COULD change out Breaker #7 to a STANDARD 20 Amp Breaker.  Then, go to the Receptacle in Bath Rear.  Change that out to a 20 Amp GFCI receptacle (Eaton Wiring, Leviton or Hubbell).  BUT, then tap in or use the LINE SIDE and run your circuit up Front.  That would balance the load.  Put the TRUE on that NEW run....following the solid and stranded convention. 

NOW...NOT KNOWING WHERE THINGS ARE...would it be easier to run that (#8) to the Bathroom and then come out on the LINE side of the NEW GFCI and run that to the Samsung.  You do NOT want to run the Samsung on a GFCI..  Then you could run from the Refrigerator outlet to wherever it is more convenient to get to the TRUE.

Just a thought.....location and ease of installation is the key

OR...say to HECK with it...and use the Intellitec Module and use a strip of Wire Mold and then rock on.  The only downside...  NOT RUNNING BOTH THE MICROWAVE AND TRUE at the same time

Be CAUTIOUS as you play with alternatives and look at the layout of the Sub Panel.  Of COURSE...I would check the breakers....Jim J and I compared notes and he gave me the basics on his and then it was easy, knowing how the Sub Panel in structured internally to develop the circuit.

Lots of input....but make sure that one understands the constraints....

[dennis.mcdonaugh]

7 hours ago, jacwjames said:

.I also have an outlet under my sink, intended to power the small Instahot water faucet at the sink.  I don't keep the insta hot plugged in, my wife sometimes like to use it but it's a waste of battery power if not on shore power. 

It is powered off the inverter, a 20 amp circuit on my coach.   Not sure if it powers any other outlets or not. 

I have a toaster oven plugged into that circuit but never use it unless on shore power or running the generator.

This would be a viable option, just have to remember to start generator when cooking if not on shore power.  That's what I do with the toaster oven. 

The idea of adding a switch makes sense also.  If it truely doesn't like MSW inverted power you could shut it off when not in use.

We always run the generator when cooking if not plugged in to shore power. I put in the switch because the induction cooktop has some parasitic power draw even when off.

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/do-you-smell-smoke-411575.html

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/inverter-or-appliance-trouble-429382.html

[jacwjames]

1 hour ago, richmelcole@sbcglobal.net said:

Several have commented on the insta-hot electrical outlet under the sink.  That outlet is on the GGI circuit fed from the inverter sub-panel.

Richard

Yup, but if you run the generator the Inverter passes that power.

[waterskier_1]

19 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Yes, BUT....I'm GUESSING and you can verify.  That Insta Hot Outlet should be on the Sub Panel #2 GFCI breaker.  On that circuit is also the Microwave.  Add in the Lamp Table #8 Circuit.  Theoretically, as Monaco, I HOPE, designed it for DIVERSITY....the Microwave will pull approximately 15 Amps.  You have 30, potential for that L1 Circuit.  Therefore, you have 15 Amps to feed the other outlets....which also includes the Lamp Table or whatever....as it says OPTION.  Even if this outlet is there, the predicted load for running the Microwave (15) and your other appliances will load the L1 Circuit up....

Therefore, the TRUE Cook Top needs to be on the L2 Circuit.  That means that the Refrigerator will be the logical candidate. The ONLY concern I would have...is that the FLA of the Samsung does NOT exceed 5 Amps.  The TRUE will consume that, but there will not be an INDUCTIVE load, I suppose, on it like there is on the Samsung.

The brief "SPIKE" that is very difficult to see on a VOM when the Samsung starts up should NOT be long enough to pop the breaker.  YES, this will be a PUSH.  

NOW....I have NO IDEA of the interior layout....so just take this as CONCEPTUAL.  YOU COULD change out Breaker #7 to a STANDARD 20 Amp Breaker.  Then, go to the Receptacle in Bath Rear.  Change that out to a 20 Amp GFCI receptacle (Eaton Wiring, Leviton or Hubbell).  BUT, then tap in or use the LINE SIDE and run your circuit up Front.  That would balance the load.  Put the TRUE on that NEW run....following the solid and stranded convention. 

NOW...NOT KNOWING WHERE THINGS ARE...would it be easier to run that (#8) to the Bathroom and then come out on the LINE side of the NEW GFCI and run that to the Samsung.  You do NOT want to run the Samsung on a GFCI..  Then you could run from the Refrigerator outlet to wherever it is more convenient to get to the TRUE.

Just a thought.....location and ease of installation is the key

OR...say to HECK with it...and use the Intellitec Module and use a strip of Wire Mold and then rock on.  The only downside...  NOT RUNNING BOTH THE MICROWAVE AND TRUE at the same time

Be CAUTIOUS as you play with alternatives and look at the layout of the Sub Panel.  Of COURSE...I would check the breakers....Jim J and I compared notes and he gave me the basics on his and then it was easy, knowing how the Sub Panel in structured internally to develop the circuit.

Lots of input....but make sure that one understands the constraints....

One of us has misinterpreted the OP Post.  Here is what he posted:  The existing refrigerator circuit to the main panel is run through the ceiling.  I will disable that circuit and run from the main panel .  I believe e is speaking of the MAIN Panel, NOT the Inverter Sub-Panel, and talking about the Refrigerator circuit that used to power a Propane Refrigerator Electric Heaters.  It sounds like he has replaced that propane refrigerator and the new refrigerator is plugged into the Inverter Sub-Panel Ice Maker circuit.  This would be a normal installation.  So, he appears to propose using the no longer needed refrigerator breaker in the MAIN Power panel to supply power to the Induction Burner.  

If I am interpreting this correctly, he does NOT plan on using the Induction burner off any Inverter Sup-Panel breaker, or of the Inverter at all.  IMO this is a smart decision.  It does mean that he will either have to be connected to shore power or run the generator when he wishes to use the Induction burner (much like many here also do when using their microwave).  I got lost trying to follow all the rest of your post, since it did not appear to be relevant to the original question.  Please forgive me if I'm wrong.  Maybe clarification from the OP would help.

  -Rick N

[richmelcole@sbcglobal.net]

That is exactly what I was trying to write Rick N.  I hope I didn't confuse anyone with my thoughts.  I do appreciate all responses from everyone.

Richard

[jacwjames]

On 12/3/2023 at 8:20 AM, richmelcole@sbcglobal.net said:

I investigated my route for my new circuit for our induction cooktop.  The existing refrigerator circuit to the main panel is run through the ceiling.  I will disable that circuit and run from the main panel horizontally back to the bedroom TV cabinet, then down to the washer/dryer area, then horizontally forward to the kitchen slide out using the wire case along the floor, then route up along the countertop/cabinet to a new jbox containing a 20-amp combination switch/outlet under the sink along the cabinet wall.  I will use 12/2 MC Lite cable to make the run from the main circuit panel to the combination switch/outlet.  One question, can the MC Lite cable be used with screw type connections with the combination switch/outlet?

Richard

It might be easier to run a 12/2 wire through the basement below the fridge and then to the other side to access the slide plumbing/electric trolley system.  It would be above the ceiling, you will have to take the ceiling panels down, but you'd have to take them down anyway.  You could use  flexible conduit for that run with the correct type of wire all the way to the stove location. Use the existing outlet box as a junction box. 

I've tried to run wire as you describe and it ain't easy.  Have to work around the rear axle and support air tank and lines etc.   I did push a 3/4" conduit from above the fuel tanks all the way across the top of the wet bay but that wasn't easy either.  I used this to pull 12 volt wire for fuel pressure gauge and Bluesea switch on the dash. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by jacwjames