Need to add a dedicated 15 Amp circuit to support TRUE Induction cooktop. 2002 Windsor. Can it be done safely?

[richmelcole@sbcglobal.net]

We have a 2002 Windsor 40PST.  Just replace our gas cooktop with a True two burner induction cooktop.  Want to run a new separate electrical circuit from the inverter subpanel located in the bedroom to the kitchen.  I would like to mount an outlet box with cutout switch under the cabinet near the front.  How do I fish a new romex wire from the subpanel to the kitchen?  What is the proper and safe way to wire the switch and outlet in the new box?  Also, I do not have a wiring diagram for a Windsor 40PST.  Thanks for your help.

Richard Cole

[TomV48]

Wow.  Ambitious undertaking.  If it is too challenging you might look at switching the microwave outlet and using it for the two as it is not likely you can run both at the same time off the inverter legs without shore power.

   Sorry I must admit not being too familiar with the separate inverter sub panel.

But I did find it easier to run flex conduit through the basement when running wiring for my solar install.

Edited November 28, 2023 by TomV48

[BradHend]

Cooktop out of your inverter panel? 
What does that unit draw? 
 

[Tom Cherry]

44 minutes ago, BradHend said:

Cooktop out of your inverter panel? 
What does that unit draw? 
 

Per Amazon, the standard TRUE Two Burner Cooktop unit draws 15 Amp or 1800 watts.  That sucker is gonna drain the House Batteries like the hole in the side of the Titanic.  It SHOULD only be operated with a “NON INVERTER” circuit.  Your inverter may (probably) is a 2000 Watt or the max output when “inverting” rating.  Odds are, it is on a 30 Amp breaker.  So, if you have SHORE or AC, then the Inverter will “pass through” 3,600….

BUT, remember, the interior outlets are one one 15 Amp side and the Microwave is on the other side….15 Amps each or total of 30….less the 5% loss in the Inverter.

Running a full bore 15 A or 1800 watt load and the Microwave will really max out the Internal ATS inside the Inverter.  If that ATS, which is just a small relay dies, good bye INVERTER.  They, at least on the Magnum are NOT replaceable.  You purchase a whole new Control board and have to install it.  Odds are, that cost is going to be more than 50% of a new inverter….and most folks just replace rather than pouring big bucks into a potentially 21 YO piece of electronics.

Sharing the Microwave circuit would be the easiest…. But a BIG STICKY NOTE is needed…WARNING, do NOT run the Microwave and TRUE Cooktop simultaneously….

Another option, if you dont use the Block Heater, steal or rewire it and run the power from it….probably available in a bay.  That, IMHO, would be a lot easier than snaking a wire that could kill your Inverter. The upper ends that had the induction cooktop option NEVER were wired for Inverter use.  Make sue that the Circuit Breaker for the Block Heater is NOT a GFCI or replace it.  These units were, I think, NEVER designed for a GFCI controlled circuit…..which is what the interior outlets have in your MH are.  

Thats the long and short of it from an electrical safety as well as how it should be powered and the pitfalls of ruining your Inverter….as well as the practical issues of running a circuit….  Look at the options….bearing these “parameters” in mind….get a qualified electrician if you don’t have the skill set or the understanding of the loads and the codes and how the TRUE should be installed.

BTW…before I posted this, I did a search and many of the DIY as well as the “electrician’s” tech support sites say that the Induction Cooktops should have a DEDICATED, NON GFCI circuit and that many units installed in kitchens where the circuits were all GFCI….would NOT WORK.  That may not be true to all, but the knowledge that we have about GFCIs and false tripping make those statements logical.  So, the “Inverter” GFCI interior outlets are NOT recommended or suited.  YES, the Microwave is on a NONGFCI circuit….dedicated…so sharing , but not using concurrently is an option.

2 hours ago, richmelcole@sbcglobal.net said:

We have a 2002 Windsor 40PST.  Just replace our gas cooktop with a True two burner induction cooktop.  Want to run a new separate electrical circuit from the inverter subpanel located in the bedroom to the kitchen.  I would like to mount an outlet box with cutout switch under the cabinet near the front.  How do I fish a new romex wire from the subpanel to the kitchen?  What is the proper and safe way to wire the switch and outlet in the new box?  Also, I do not have a wiring diagram for a Windsor 40PST.  Thanks for your help.

Richard Cole

See my post on the issues with what you are proposing .  Now….DRAWINGS. Use the SEARCH box.  Use WIRING. Click on the EVERYWHERE button….use FILES in the dropdown.  Your drawing are in there and can be downloaded.

[jacwjames]

Do   you have two outlets behind your refrigerator, if so one may not be through the inverter and off a breaker in the main panel.  If so you might be able to use that circuit and would be close to the kitchen counter. 

Your kitchen counter probably has a system for the wiring/plumbing/propane is routed and rolls it in/out.  You would have to duplicate this for the new circuit and probably put a junction box similar to what is already there for the circuit that feeds the microwave and other circuit UNLESS you could pull another wire through that conduit. 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, jacwjames said:

Do   you have two outlets behind your refrigerator, if so one may not be through the inverter and off a breaker in the main panel.  If so you might be able to use that circuit and would be close to the kitchen counter. 

Your kitchen counter probably has a system for the wiring/plumbing/propane is routed and rolls it in/out.  You would have to duplicate this for the new circuit and probably put a junction box similar to what is already there for the circuit that feeds the microwave and other circuit UNLESS you could pull another wire through that conduit. 

Maybe…but maybe NOT.  The Refrigerator heater circuit is a 10 A circuit as the heaters are low wattage.  Thus, the wiring is inadequate…unless Monaco ran #14 or #12.  At any rate, the breaker will have to be changed.  However, if the refrigerator heater circuit is still active, as in the heaters are being used, there is NOT sufficient capacity to support the heaters and the TRUE induction cooktop.

Care and planning and knowledge must be used as the 15 A power needed  for the TRUE is going to be tricky….and not understanding the needs….plus not being able to run circuits as easily as in a residence makes it doubly complex….damage can occur or a dangerous overload.

[richmelcole@sbcglobal.net]

Looking at my induction cooktop manual, power specifications is 1800 watts = 15 amps, serviced by 14- gauge wire, protected by 15-amp circuit breaker.  I will investigate the behind the refrigerator heater circuit and use that source plus upgrade if needed.  I'm hoping for 12-2 romex cable on a 20-amp circuit.

[Dennis T]

My True induction cooktop refuses to operate on Xantrex MSW inverter.

[Dr4Film]

For those who have induction cook-tops, unless you have a set of 8 house batteries with a 3000 Watt PSW Inverter, why would you even consider running the induction cook-top on your inverter. Fire up the generator and use your cook-top plus charge up your house batteries at the same time.

I only have four house batteries with a 2000 Watt PSW Inverter and we never run ANY large amp draw device on the inverter. We always run the generator for those devices. It is much easier on the batteries, the inverter and the device too.

@richmelcole@sbcglobal.net if your coach came with an Insta-Hot option or not, there could be a 20 amp circuit under the kitchen counter for that purpose you could use for the induction cook-top.

[jacwjames]

9 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Maybe…but maybe NOT.  The Refrigerator heater circuit is a 10 A circuit as the heaters are low wattage.  Thus, the wiring is inadequate…unless Monaco ran #14 or #12.  At any rate, the breaker will have to be changed.  However, if the refrigerator heater circuit is still active, as in the heaters are being used, there is NOT sufficient capacity to support the heaters and the TRUE induction cooktop.

Care and planning and knowledge must be used as the 15 A power needed  for the TRUE is going to be tricky….and not understanding the needs….plus not being able to run circuits as easily as in a residence makes it doubly complex….damage can occur or a dangerous overload.

Except for the Block Heater circuit which is 15 amps all other circuits are 20 amps on my rig.  But all Monaco's are snowflakes.  I have looked at the wiring diagram, don't see one specific for his floor plan.  Some coaches use 20 and some use 15 amp behind the fridge, he will have to check.

But as with everything else each person needs to know their comfort zone on what they are able to do.  

Edited November 29, 2023 by jacwjames

[Tom Cherry]

3 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Except for the Block Heater circuit which is 15 amps all other circuits are 20 amps on my rig.  But all Monaco's are snowflakes. 

I would not have suggested this if I thought the wiring would have been inadequate, but as with everything else each person needs to know their comfort zone on what they are able to do.  

I totally respect your suggestion.  I fell into the TRAP that I get upset about when others fall prey to the "THIS IS HOW IT IS DONE". In the later years, I thought that Monaco downgraded the Refrigerator Heater Circuit to a 10 Amp as that was all that was needed.  Typically, the heaters are in the 350 - 400 Watt range, so all you would need would be less than 10 Amps.

BUT...SHAME ON ME...  I thought that I had a 10 Amp.  Nope, I have a 20 Amp.  I also pulled the prints and the manual on the 2002 Windsor.  Yes...that is a 20 amp circuit.

BUT, since the 2002 Norcolds did NOT have but ONE plug, then the icemaker circuit was included with it. 

NOW  @richmelcole@sbcglobal.net

You just posted that you are considering the Refrigerator outlet.  Did you say earlier or did I miss this?  Do you STILL have a Gas/Electric Refrigerator.  If so, that needs at least 10 amp or maybe a smidge less.  Therefore, you do not have enough ampacity for the Induction and the Refrigerator. 

Next up, do you have a Residential Refrigerator?  If it is on the INVERTER, as MOST ARE...then YES, you can used the Abandoned Refrigerator Circuit (20 Amps) for the Cook Top.  BUT...if, like some folks did, you have a Res Refer and it is still on the MAIN 20 A Refrigerator breaker....NOPE....  OK, MAYBE.  There is a current spike when the Compressor comes on.  THEN it drops off.  You MIGHT be OK...as in the spike is brief.  BUT, you need to know what the Current draw is when it goes into defrost and all the heater elements inside start to "toast" the box.

Those two questions or the above need to be sorted out.  My only concern...and I know the Jim J is sharp, is that a 20 Amp breaker sharing a Gas/Electric will overload as the Heaters will draw way too much.  BUT, even a Res Refer, based on the popular RF 18 will draw, FLA, upwards of 3 A.  That is cutting it a bit too close for my "comfort zone".

@jacwjames

Good catch.  Too late at night and doing mess on my iPad without my trusty files on the PC

[waterskier_1]

Ok, rather than guess, I pulled the 2002 Windsor Wiring Diagrams.  On the Main Power Panel (non-inverter) all breakers are 20 Amp, except the Block heater and the refrigerator, which are 15 Amp.  On the Inverter Sub-Panel all breakers are 20 Amp (save the 30 Amp input from the inverter).  Yes, it's interesting that the Ice Maker for the Refrigerator is 20 Amps and the Refrigerator (including the AC heaters) is only 15 Amps.  I suspect, but only a guess because it is what I do in my designs, is spec all the wires at 12 gauge so I don't have to have several spools of wire sizes on hand.  

Now to the question.  It appears the OP has a portable 2-burner induction cooktop based on his specs.  A true built-in induction cooktop is often 220 Volt as it has much more powerful elements.

As others have said, it is often counterproductive to run heating devices for long periods of time (say, greater than 30 minutes) of batteries.  We must remember that batteries do not PRODUCE power,  but only store it.  They must be refilled by some other source.  That said, without knowing what the OP has for battery storage and solar or other restrictions (restrictions on when the generator may be used), along with the inverter capabilities, we shouldn't say no.  I would strongly advise against it, if I were asked.

Now, to answer the OP's question, I need more information.  Where, specifically, are the Power (Main & Inverter Sub-) Panels located.  If in the back closet, it is often accessible from the basement (really that would be the engine compartment that far back).  Also of importance, is where the cabinet you plan on placing the cooktop lives - in a slide-out?  I just got through running cables through the flex-accordion-tray from the basement, to the slide floor, then after pulling all the cabinet bottoms out, thru the cabinets to where I needed it.  This was in the Dining Flat Slide on my Exec.  I haven't look, but suspect it is similar, or easier on the kitchen slide, since it's not a flat floor slide.  In my case I was running coax cable and CAT 6 ethernet cable, so protecting it was not as much an issue as 110 VAC Romex would be.  I think if it were me, I'd have to consider violating the NEC (yes Tom, it doesn't apply to RVs, but is still a good guide to electrical safety), and use romex in conduit.  Either PVC (non-metallic electrical conduit to be more exact) or, if it is easier (but more expensive) that waterproof flex conduit.  Both are designed for only single strand (not multiple strands in a sheath) cable.  But single strand if much harder (my opinion) to use in retrofit applications.  You may be able to fish the Romex through the basement ceiling, but getting from the engine compartment to the basement (in front of the drive axle) is often difficult, and then finding room through the foam sealant into those chases can be a problem.  There are at least two chases, one on each side of the coach.  In addition to wires (cables) there are hydraulic hoses (for the power steering) and coolant hoses (for the dash heater) and A/C hoses (for the dash A/C) and others.  It can be done, but it is a difficult endeavor.  

Have you done the simple things, like look for an outlet that might be convenient nearby that you could tap into?  If you were to implement the suggestion of using the microwave circuit, I would strongly suggest you install a double throw switch such that you could select only one or the other.  Granted the 20 Amp Microwave breaker should protect the circuit wiring, but it is bad engineering practice to "design to violate".  I had such a switch in one of my older coaches which was only 30 Amp.  It would switch between the rear A/C and the microwave.  

If you provide more details, I may be able to provide more specific advise.

  -Rick N.

[richmelcole@sbcglobal.net]

The Norcold refrigerator is gone.  Samsung is plugged into inverter outlet.  Both main and sub-panels are located in the rear bedroom-curb side.  Induction cooktop is on a kitchen slideout-curb side.

Richard Cole

[Tom Cherry]

14 minutes ago, richmelcole@sbcglobal.net said:

The Norcold refrigerator is gone.  Samsung is plugged into inverter outlet.  Both main and sub-panels are located in the rear bedroom-curb side.  Induction cooktop is on a kitchen slideout-curb side.

Richard Cole

OK....sounds like we have most of the facts....

YES, I did pull the prints this morning....as well as look at the information from the Owner's manual.  and Jim J and I had a conversation several months ago...and we compared drawings and worked out the circuits from his "measurements" and also how the Sub Panel is wired... MY BEST GUESS....as to Rick's question.  YES, the panels are located in the back closet.  See Page 8-20 of the 2002 Owner's Manual. 

BUT, look at the Drawing below.  The Inverter is a Dual IN, Dual OUT.  SO, the two 30 Amp Breakers (Inverter 1 and Inverter 2) feed the Inverter.  Then the two AC Out's, from the Inverter....FEED THE SUBPANEL.  Back to my logic.  YES...  there is 30 amps IN on each side.  Directly FROM the Main panel.  SO....if the Inverter is rated, and some of the earlier ones were NOT like the Magnum...  2000 Watts INVERTED and 3,600 Watts OUTPUT. 

THAT, to me, the Trace RC-7's ATS AMP rating is the unknown.  I have downloaded and gone over the Manual.  WONDERFUL.  BUT, it does NOT, like a Magnum, tell you what the ATS is rated at.  The Windsor's owner's manual says: 

Incorporated in the inverter is a double pole “pass-through” relay which trips when AC power is supplied to the input terminals. This will transfer AC power through the inverter to a sub panel supplying AC power to outlets and appliances. When AC power is supplied to the inverter, the internal battery charger will “ramp up” battery charging voltage. A 20 second time delay allows charge stabilization before pass through AC power is supplied to the sub panel.  

OK....  Question or comments from @jacwjames or @waterskier_1

Assume there are 30 amps on L1 and L2 coming into the Inverter.  That would be 7,200 watts.  What is the AMP RATING of the Internal ATS or what is the output of the two AC's OUT?  That is what bugs me?  IF it is rated like a Magnum....then the ATS is 3,600 watts.  That WILL, barely, support the Microwave and the Cooktop....BOTH

SO, all the INTERIOR or internal outlets are in the Sub Panel.  The Microwave is in the Sub Panel.  If you add in the Cook Top, that will be in the Sub Panel.  If ALL are used, assuming on Shore or Genny....then, assume 15 Amps for Interior, 15 Amps for Microwave and 15 Amps for Cook Top.  That is 4,500 Watts.  I do NOT know if the ATS is rated that hight.  Again... I DO KNOW that the ATS on a Magnum is only rated for 30 Amps.  It MATTERS NOT whether it is a Single IN Dual Out or a Dual In Dual Out.

If this was mine, I would want to know the Amperage or the Wattage of the Double Pole internal or BYPASS ATS....per the manual. THEN, make my decision.

Rick make a good point...  "I NEED MORE information"....and then the Location is the focus.  The Owner's manual, plus my own personal helping folks out on older Windsor's pointed me to the Closet.... Which I reverified.

BUT, prior to that....unless you know the Wattage or the amperage (on each pole), you can't say to USE the Subpanel.  THAT was why I suggested NOT using the Sub Panel and using the Block Heater....  From the Manual....the Block Heater's GFCI rating is NOT on the diagram.  BUT, if you look at the Drawing, it is a 15 Amp.  

UNLESS you can nail down the Amps or wattage of the internal RC-7 ATS, I would tap into (use a Junction Box)....Rick and I get tied up in details....so "macro view" the Block heater circuit with an appropriate Junction box.  I would swap OUT the GFCI to a 15 Amp Breaker....UNLESS the wiring to it was #12....if so, then I would use a 20 Amp breaker.  Then one COULD install a 15 A GFCI in the Block Heater's Receptacle.  That MEETS "Code" or Monaco's intent....and believe me, it is STUPID to have a GFCI on a TOASTER ELEMENT....and SINCE one does NOT intend to run a "Power Tool" or dry one's hair standing in a puddle of water.... I would NOT change out the Block heater.  There have been Windsor owners that reported the heater was OK but it had enough tiny leakage to TRIP the internal GFCI in the panel and swapped them out. A common problem.  I THINK that my main panel is a standard breaker and the receptacle is a GFCI...but I don't use it....

OK....back on point.  The J-Box would then have a run that HOPEFULLY could be accomplished by normal means and not have to have a boa constrictor doing the snaking and such.

That's my take....still the same....  I would NOT use the Sub Panel unless I knew the internal ATS's FLA and THAT is critical.  If you use the Sub Panel and lose power to shore...that rascal, the inverter, is going to start INVERTING....  That is why, since the Upper food chain rigs like the Exec and Sig actually had 240 VAC units or maybe earlier 120....they were ALL off the Main Panel and NOT through the Sub Panel...

Comments?

2002 & 2003 Windsor Sub Panel & Inverter Circuit.pdf

[waterskier_1]

3 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

OK....sounds like we have most of the facts....

YES, I did pull the prints this morning....as well as look at the information from the Owner's manual.  and Jim J and I had a conversation several months ago...and we compared drawings and worked out the circuits from his "measurements" and also how the Sub Panel is wired... MY BEST GUESS....as to Rick's question.  YES, the panels are located in the back closet.

I see that they are in the back.  Likely the "closet" whatever that is, since there is also the "wardrobe" which I call a closet.  My primary question is "what is beneath the panel, in the "closet".  In my case, it is a washer/dryer combo, such that without drilling through the washer/dryer I can NOT exit my Inverter (or Main) Power Panel directly from the box to and through the floor with conduit.  I know some coaches the Power Panel is inside what Monaco calls the "wardrobe" where such conduit may be run.

  See Page 8-20 of the 2002 Owner's Manual.  I search all pages 8 through 20 and found only new owner stuff.  It should be Page 8-206, which again doesn't tell me what I need to know.

BUT, look at the Drawing below.  The Inverter is a Dual IN, Dual OUT.  SO, the two 30 Amp Breakers (Inverter 1 and Inverter 2) feed the Inverter.  Then the two AC Out's, from the Inverter....FEED THE SUBPANEL.  Back to my logic.  YES...  there is 30 amps IN on each side.  Directly FROM the Main panel.  SO....if the Inverter is rated, and some of the earlier ones were NOT like the Magnum...  2000 Watts INVERTED and 3,600 Watts OUTPUT. 

Tom, I can not address every possible inverter on the market.  What I need to know is what, specific Inverter the OP has in his coach.  Not what came with it originally, which he may still have, but most my consulting is based on or after the inverter has been upgraded, mostly to PSW, but also more power capability.

THAT, to me, the Trace RC-7's ATS AMP rating is the unknown.  I have downloaded and gone over the Manual.  WONDERFUL.  BUT, it does NOT, like a Magnum, tell you what the ATS is rated at.  The Windsor's owner's manual says: 

Incorporated in the inverter is a double pole “pass-through” relay which trips when AC power is supplied to the input terminals. This will transfer AC power through the inverter to a sub panel supplying AC power to outlets and appliances. When AC power is supplied to the inverter, the internal battery charger will “ramp up” battery charging voltage. A 20 second time delay allows charge stabilization before pass through AC power is supplied to the sub panel.  

OK....  Question or comments from @jacwjames or @waterskier_1

Assume there are 30 amps on L1 and L2 coming into the Inverter.  That would be 7,200 watts.  Yes, well more precisely, 7200 Volt-Amps - the Wattage is usually spec'd lower because of the power factor, but we are getting into the weeds.

What is the AMP RATING of the Internal ATS or what is the output of the two AC's OUT?  I have no idea, but I'm not redesigning the Inverter.  At some point we must assume that the manufacturer selected the proper components based upon the rated input and output.

That is what bugs me?  IF it is rated like a Magnum....then the ATS is 3,600 watts.  That WILL, barely, support the Microwave and the Cooktop....BOTH  If that is true for the Magnum, your statement is true.  But how many times have people plugged in more than one space heater, and tripped the breaker.  That is why, until I know the specific manufacturer/model of the Inverter, I don't waste my time considering the universe of possibilities. 

SO, all the INTERIOR or internal outlets are in the Sub Panel.  I think that is a true statement - I'm not sure what you might be getting at by capitalizing "INTERIOR".  The only outlets that are not feed by the inverter sub-panel are the Block Heater and the Refrigerator (which in Monaco lingo is discretely different from the inverter Ice Make outlet.

The Microwave is in the Sub Panel. True.

  If you add in the Cook Top, that will be in the Sub Panel.  I believe that is the OP's intention.  I personally don't recommend that, but that is not because it's a safety issue, but an overall power management issue.

If ALL are used, assuming on Shore or Genny....then, assume 15 Amps for Interior, 15 Amps for Microwave and 15 Amps for Cook Top.  That is 4,500 Watts.  Not sure I follow your math.  If you sum 3-15 Amp breakers, you get 45 Amps.  45 Amps X 120 Volts is 5400 Watts (maybe you transposed the numbers?).  I'm not quite sure where the 15-Amps comes from.  There are 5) 20-Amp breakers in the Inverter Sub-Panel, but that doesn't mean that you can draw (5 * 20) = 100 Amps or 12 KW from the panel.  

I do NOT know if the ATS is rated that hight.  We can not second guess every product on the market.  If his inverter (still don't know which so the subject is purely academic) is designed for 30 Amps time 2, I have no reason to believe it can't handle that.

Again... I DO KNOW that the ATS on a Magnum is only rated for 30 Amps.  It MATTERS NOT whether it is a Single IN Dual Out or a Dual In Dual Out.  Again, I can't speak for all inverters.  I know that Victrons are rated at 50 Amps Pass-Through.  

If this was mine, I would want to know the Amperage or the Wattage of the Double Pole internal or BYPASS ATS....per the manual. THEN, make my decision.  Then ask the manufacturer.

Rick make a good point...  "I NEED MORE information"....and then the Location is the focus.  The Owner's manual, plus my own personal helping folks out on older Windsor's pointed me to the Closet.... Which I reverified.

BUT, prior to that....unless you know the Wattage or the amperage (on each pole), you can't say to USE the Subpanel.  THAT was why I suggested NOT using the Sub Panel and using the Block Heater....  From the Manual....the Block Heater's GFCI rating is NOT on the diagram.  BUT, if you look at the Drawing, it is a 15 Amp.  None of the breakers in the Main Power Panel are GFCI.  Only two breakers in the Inverter Sub-Panel are GFCI; those serve the Galley and the Bath (along with other outlets). 

UNLESS you can nail down the Amps or wattage of the internal RC-7 ATS, The RC-7 does not have an ATS - the ATS is located in the inverter, not the remote control panel.

I would tap into (use a Junction Box)....Rick and I get tied up in details....so "macro view" the Block heater circuit with an appropriate Junction box.  I would swap OUT the GFCI to a 15 Amp Breaker....UNLESS the wiring to it was #12....if so, then I would use a 20 Amp breaker.  Then one COULD install a 15 A GFCI in the Block Heater's Receptacle.  That MEETS "Code" or Monaco's intent....and believe me, it is STUPID to have a GFCI on a TOASTER ELEMENT....and SINCE one does NOT intend to run a "Power Tool" or dry one's hair standing in a puddle of water.... I would NOT change out the Block heater.  There have been Windsor owners that reported the heater was OK but it had enough tiny leakage to TRIP the internal GFCI in the panel and swapped them out. A common problem.  I THINK that my main panel is a standard breaker and the receptacle is a GFCI...but I don't use it.... There is no GFCI on the 15 Amp Block Heater breaker.  

OK....back on point.  The J-Box would then have a run that HOPEFULLY could be accomplished by normal means and not have to have a boa constrictor doing the snaking and such.  I'm not sure what "normal means" means regarding getting the romex or conduit from the rear engine compartment, past the engine and transmission and over the drive axle and then into the sealed basement looks like.  But I don't see any difference between using the Block Heater J-Box versus running a new romex from either the Main or the Sub Panel, once you get it through the floor.  That was my main concern.

That's my take....still the same....  I would NOT use the Sub Panel unless I knew the internal ATS's FLA and THAT is critical.  If you use the Sub Panel and lose power to shore...that rascal, the inverter, is going to start INVERTING....  That is why, since the Upper food chain rigs like the Exec and Sig actually had 240 VAC units or maybe earlier 120....they were ALL off the Main Panel and NOT through the Sub Panel... I guess that is a possibility, but it wouldn't do it for long.  Most current technology inverters allow the maximum pass-through only in non-inverting (shore power) mode.  Once the AC Input to the inverter disappears, the inverter drops the "non-essential" load and powers the "essential" load only.  Again, since I have no idea what the OP has, I can't say how his would react.  I think the main reason most things, other than the microwave and outlets, were not put on the inverter is two-fold.  First, we didn't have the battery capability back then that Lithium batteries now provide.  The OP could likely cook dinner on a nice set of lithium batteries.  The concern I have is: is it worth it to cook for an hour only to have to run the generator for two hours or more to replace what you took out?  Second, electronics has come a long ways in the last 20-25 years.  As have manufacturing processes to build the new technology into products.  I know a handful of people whom I have consulted with that have their whole coach, including A/C's on their inverter.  Some are limited to just one A/C while using a myriad of other devices we all have in our coaches, because they elected to not incorporate dual inverters and 24 or 48 Volt systems, a must a those power levels.

Comments?

2002 & 2003 Windsor Sub Panel & Inverter Circuit.pdf 158.56 kB · 1 download

After the OP has read the different comments, a would like to hear how he wants to proceed.  I can advise on system design features, and provide limited help with the actual physical routing and interconnections, based upon which coaches I've had personal experience.

  -Rick N.

[richmelcole@sbcglobal.net]

My plan is to investigate the non-used refrigerator outlet on the roadside of the kitchen, fed from the Main Distribution Panel in the bedroom.  Hopefully it is a 12-2 romex like the print indicates.  Pull it from under the Samsung into the storage bay, mount a jbox,  then see where to go up into the slide out area on the curbside kitchen.  Not sure how to solve the slideout movement for the romex.  Any help would be appreciated.

Rich

[jacwjames]

1 hour ago, richmelcole@sbcglobal.net said:

My plan is to investigate the non-used refrigerator outlet on the roadside of the kitchen, fed from the Main Distribution Panel in the bedroom.  Hopefully it is a 12-2 romex like the print indicates.  Pull it from under the Samsung into the storage bay, mount a jbox,  then see where to go up into the slide out area on the curbside kitchen.  Not sure how to solve the slideout movement for the romex.  Any help would be appreciated.

Rich

This is what I would do.   Look at how your current power is routed and how the flexible conduit is dealt with.  On mine it is bundled with the flexible drain for the kitchen sink.  As the slide goes in/out the bundle roles in and out, there is a trolley system that carries the weight and moves in and out. 

I had my both the inverter and main service panels out while I was chasing a problem.  On my coach all the wiring is 12-2 romex except for the 30 amp circuits.  You should be able to tell by taking the cover off the main service panel.  

I actually revised this circuit, I added a 1000 watt PSW inverter/charger in the TV box in the bedroom to be able use if my main inverter crapped out and to augment charging.

 

[TomV48]

On 11/29/2023 at 2:55 AM, richmelcole@sbcglobal.net said:

Looking at my induction cooktop manual, power specifications is 1800 watts = 15 amps, serviced by 14- gauge wire, protected by 15-amp circuit breaker.  I will investigate the behind the refrigerator heater circuit and use that source plus upgrade if needed.  I'm hoping for 12-2 romex cable on a 20-amp circuit.

Behind my fridge there are two outlets.   The inverter circuit is intended for the ice maker.  While the non inverter outlet  is intended for the heating element.   In an emergency I have run the frig off the inverter, as it pulls only 4-5 amps for the 500-600 watt boiler heater.  I would not mess with 1500 watts on that leg, but even the fridge boiler heater was pulling over 40 amps from the batteries which is not desirable long term, even on my big battery bank.  My wife will not even run the microwave on the inverter as it is not pure sine and the she says, "I don't like the way it sounds on the inverter, and the generator needs to run once in a while anyway."

[Dr4Film]

34 minutes ago, TomV48 said:

My wife will not even run the microwave on the inverter as it is not pure sine and the she says, "I don't like the way it sounds on the inverter, and the generator needs to run once in a while anyway."

I tried it just one time for a few seconds and did NOT like the sound that the microwave was making either. From that point on we have never run any high wattage device using the inverter. We always fire up the generator when needed.

What you remove from the battery bank while using the microwave which is generally a significant amount will need to be put back either using the generator or shore power so what's the point?

That's also why there have been members who have had to either repair or replace the microwave or a house battery bank after running it on an inverter way too many times.

[waterskier_1]

1 hour ago, TomV48 said:

Behind my fridge there are two outlets.   The inverter circuit is intended for the ice maker.  While the non inverter outlet  is intended for the heating element.   In an emergency I have run the frig off the inverter, as it pulls only 4-5 amps for the 500-600 watt boiler heater.  I would not mess with 1500 watts on that leg, but even the fridge boiler heater was pulling over 40 amps from the batteries which is not desirable long term, even on my big battery bank.  My wife will not even run the microwave on the inverter as it is not pure sine and the she says, "I don't like the way it sounds on the inverter, and the generator needs to run once in a while anyway."

The inverter outlet designated for the ice maker is actually on a 20 Amp breaker, versus the non-inverted outlet for the heating element.  The circuit (wiring and circuit breaker) can easily handle the refrigerator.  If there is no shore (or generator) power, you are correct that the inverter will take over and power the refrigerator.  I don't know why anyone would do that, since the described refrigerator has propane for use when there is not shore power.  In fact, the whole logic for two outlets, one on and one off the inverter is to allow for the automatic switchover built into the refrigerator - when shore power is lost, it will switch to propane.  The inverted outlet is for the ice maker, which would not otherwise operate when on propane.  

I wouldn't worry about drawing 40 amps from a good battery bank.  I draw about that much throughout the day, especially if the TV, Surround Sound, Dish Receiver, Router, Cell Booster, WiFi Ranger, and Aquahot are running.  Granted I have solar to ease the consumption from the battery, but it does not hurt the inverter, Circuit Breaker, or wiring to do so.  I would not add a propane heater to the inverter, any more than I would run a water heater (non Aquahot) on electricity when boondocking.  That is why many of our appliances have dual sources for heat.

Regarding running the microwave on an inverter, I was designed to do so.  Now you do have to be realistic on how much and how long you use it.  I will reheat (less than 5 minutes in microwave mode) on the inverter, especially if it's during the day and my batteries are topped off by the solar.  I will not use convection mode on the inverter.  Most things I cook that way require a pre-heat that often takes longer than my 5-minute rule.  But that mostly because I realize that batteries do NOT produce electricity.  They only store it, and whatever is used must eventually be replaced. 

I objective data says that it's okay to use many microwaves on MSW (Modified Sine Wave).  The main concern would be the electronics digital display.  The magnetron requires a very high voltage, so whatever power comes in is first run through a transformer and then rectified to DC.  If you are really concerned, then look at Inverter Microwaves.  Like Inverter residential refrigerators,  they don't care if MSW or PSW, and they are much more energy efficient since they are not "full power" or "full off" cycling.  They actually modulate the power.  That said, I have read a bunch of empirical comments that microwaves don't like inverters, but no objective data to back up the claim.  All these comments presume that the inverter and the appliance are operating correctly, and the the battery supply is sufficient to supply power to the inverter.

  -Rick N. 

  -Rick N.

[TomV48]

I am not concerned Rick. But they say modified sine, I put an oscilloscope on the now 19 yr old Magnum,  and it is flat out a near perfect square wave.   That said,the microwave runs on it but in DW's defense the motor cries when it is on inverter.

I had to run the fridge on elect during a three week trip, (after burner failure while waiting 7 months on a new fridge back order), and was not always on shore power sites.  With that 40+ amp draw on a 100% duty cycle,  if I had not  had the 600 amps of LiFePo, 600 watt solar and  a 40-40 DC charger, we would not have made it.

Edited November 30, 2023 by TomV48

[Rocketman3]

I would not put solid wire 12-2 romex into the movement part of the slide.

Our Marine neighbors use a stranded 12ga for 110v wire (the kind that is rated for high voltage). I don’t know the letter codes. I think a 12 ga “extension cord” would be much better than romex.

[Ivan K]

My coach diagram shows 5x SJEOW-A flexible cable 14/3 between those 6x6 J-boxes. 15A rating each. That would be the type of cable I would use if I needed an other one whatever size.

[waterskier_1]

17 hours ago, Ivan K said:

My coach diagram shows 5x SJEOW-A flexible cable 14/3 between those 6x6 J-boxes. 15A rating each. That would be the type of cable I would use if I needed an other one whatever size.

I was surprised to read this, so I looked, and the 2002 Windsor (and 2003) don't show the slide J-Box detail, so I went to the same year Dynasty.  You are correct.  But that is for the CSA coaches.  I believe that is Canadian, but I'm not quite sure, but they also show only 15 Amp Breakers in parenthesis to the USA 20 Amp breakers.  I looked further, and found another USA J-Box Drawing which show 12 gauge THNN (stranded wire) in the "3/4-inch CORRLOCK FLEXIBLE CONDUIT", Electro-Flex P/Y CL-14, Monaco P/Y 16515.  Rocketman3 is correct, you would not want to use Stranded Romex in a flexible situation.  Also, the Romex would not physically fit in the Corrlock conduit.  I have added 3 Victron Direct cables, a Cat 3 cable and a RG-58 coax cable to my driver's side Corrlock.  There was roo in the Corrlock, but I barely had enough room in the hole through the floor.  I don't think two more AWG 14 THNN wires would be a problem, but I have not looked inside the J-Boxes themselves (which contain all the 110 VAC wiring).  I would NOT downsize the wire without downsizing the breaker it is connected to.  The difference in diameter between AWG 12 and AWG 14 should not be an issue.

  -Rick N.

[TomV48]

On 11/30/2023 at 10:27 AM, waterskier_1 said:

 

I objective data says that it's okay to use many micowaves on MSW (Modified Sine Wave).  The main concern would be the electronics digital display.  The magnetron requires a very high voltage, so w is first run through a transformer and then rectified to DC.  If you are really concerned, then look at Inverter Microwaves.  Like Inverter residential refrigerators,  they don't care if MSW or PSW,

  -Rick N. 

  -Rick N.

At the risk of repeating myself. I say again I put an oscilloscope on my 2004 model 2000 watt Magnum and it is a perfectly square wave.

While most things will tolerate a bad waveform, when you can hear the difference in the motor between shore power and inverter power.  Good mechanical sense says that just can't be the best thing for a motor. 

     I am passively curious to know how many out there have replaced the old Magnum with the newer pure sine wave Magnum. It seems to be available in 2000 watt or 2800 Watt just bolt-in compatible with the old unit.  I have been tempted but my wife said she'll kill me if I spend $1,800 on something that isn't broken, yet.