Going HIGH TECH….2007 Dynasty. New Inverter Charger and Lithiums and such. Questions??” and Help Needed.

[96 EVO]

2 minutes ago, Grey Goose said:

 

By "crank up" do you mean exceed the settings or just go to max voltage setting? I assume you are using CC/CV or customer settings.

My Magnum BTS will raise float charge voltage to 14.0- 14.1V at about freezing temperature.

[wamcneil]

8 minutes ago, Grey Goose said:

By "crank up" do you mean exceed the settings ?

Yes. Temperature compensation works by raising the voltage by some small amount per degree below 70deg F. That will crank the voltage ABOVE your set point . Lead acid batteries will tolerate higher charge voltage when cold.

I discovered this one cold morning after fixing my long-time nonfunctional temp sensor. 

Edited February 25 by wamcneil

[Grey Goose]

1 minute ago, 96 EVO said:

My Magnum BTS will raise float charge voltage to 14.0- 14.1V at about freezing temperature.

But what are your settings? Battery type/voltage etc.

And what battery chemistry?

[96 EVO]

Just now, Grey Goose said:

But what are your settings? Battery type/voltage etc.

And what battery chemistry?

Flooded lead acid.

[Grey Goose]

Just now, wamcneil said:

Yes. Temperature compensation works by raising the voltage by some small amount per degree below 70deg F. That will crank the voltage ABOVE your set point 

Understood, I assume this was for lead acid battery chemistry and I was not sure if it did the same for what ever battery type you have yours set at. I assume you are using custom or CC/CV?

 

1 minute ago, 96 EVO said:

Flooded lead acid.

So it does what it is supposed to do in your case.

[wamcneil]

2 minutes ago, Grey Goose said:

Understood, I assume this was for lead acid battery chemistry and I was not sure if it did the same for what ever battery type you have yours set at. I assume you are using custom or CC/CV?

As I recall, magnum disables temp compensation ONLY in the lithium profile and there is no option to disable it in custom settings or any other charge profile. I think I called tech support to confirm that. Been a few years…
Yes. I’m using custom settings that are a form of cc/cv. I have significant voltage drop in my ridiculously long cables, so my settings are partially to work around that limitation

[PTTech]

20 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

 

Right from the "Horses" Mouth...

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/163662/float-lithium-manufacturer-says-no.html#:~:text=Float charging%2C or maintainers are,of <5% a month.

 

I'm a little confused. This is quoted from the post you linked to:

"Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered · Oct 20 2022 at 7:17 AM BEST ANSWERACCEPTED ANSWER

Hi @jpcirig

For lithium batteries you should see the 'float' stage as a 'not discharging' stage:

An lfp battery has a resting voltage of about 13.2-13.4 volt, by setting 'float' voltage to that level, if there is power use (for example in a boat or RV: lights, DC equipment, alarm), this power will come from the charger (if the load is not bigger than the charger can supply)

So: the battery is not really charging in the 'float' stage and won't damage the batteries."

I've read of many users that are charging with lead-acid profiles. Seems like the majority say it just won't top off the battery as quickly as a Li-ion charger would.

Edited February 25 by PTTech

[wamcneil]

There seems to be a misconception that any "float" stage will continuously force current through the battery. That's not the case with lifepo4.

As long as 'float' voltage is at or below the resting voltage of the battery, it'll just hold that state of charge and current through the battery will be zero. 

 

Edited February 25 by wamcneil

[96 EVO]

9 minutes ago, wamcneil said:

There seems to be a misconception that any "float" stage will continuously force current through the battery. That's not the case with lifepo4.

As long as 'float' voltage is at or below the resting voltage of the battery, it'll just hold that state of charge and current through the battery will be zero. 

 

Seems to be the case with all batteries!

9 times out of ten when I look at my Magnum remote, with no lights or fans running, it displays 'float charging' 0-DC amps going in.

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, PTTech said:

I'm a little confused. This is quoted from the post you linked to:

"Daniël Boekel (Victron Energy Staff) answered · Oct 20 2022 at 7:17 AM BEST ANSWERACCEPTED ANSWER

Hi @jpcirig

For lithium batteries you should see the 'float' stage as a 'not discharging' stage:

An lfp battery has a resting voltage of about 13.2-13.4 volt, by setting 'float' voltage to that level, if there is power use (for example in a boat or RV: lights, DC equipment, alarm), this power will come from the charger (if the load is not bigger than the charger can supply)

So: the battery is not really charging in the 'float' stage and won't damage the batteries."

I've read of many users that are charging with lead-acid profiles. Seems like the majority say it just won't top off the battery as quickly as a Li-ion charger would.

This question is now being debated like Chicken and Egg... Look at the attached files...

Then read the Victron Manual - Connecting Other Lithiums...It is a PDF below. There are two "critical" Page(s) in each and they have been printed (PDF) for those that want "the bottom line".    

Magnum says that the older chargers, specifically 5.4 or older should NEVER be used with Lithium Batteries.  Theses are the ones in question here.  Magnum did NOT start addressing Lithiums until the 5.5 Version, circa 2014 or so.

Now with the 5.5 - 5.9 versions, it MIGHT be possible to set the OUTPUT to ZERO....after the BATTERY was charged.  That in effect, turns OFF the Float Voltage... Typically 13.0 or so VDC. There is still a small amount of current...in the 2 - 3 amp range.  Note the Victron says that the FLOAT stage (if you look at the charts and understand) will be 0.05 C...certainly not a few amps.

Magnum warns owners that the misconception of using Lithiums with ANY Magnum Inverter/Charger is misinformation and dangerous...especially to the LIFE of the Lithiums.  Even  versions 5.9 or older will NOT WORK PROPERLY. As in, once a Lithium, once has been FULLY CHARGED, and then changing the Charge Percentage to ZERO % may or may NOT eliminate a tiny amount of current that just "flows" or continues to charge the Lithium.

They ONLY RECOMMEND versions 6.0 or newer, with the newer remotes for Lithiums... They also assume that an owner can properly setup or choose the correct Charging profile. In addition you need the latest version or new remote.

Bottom line...  One CAN, if desired, use any flavor of Lead Acid/AGM to start to charge a Lithium. However, one MUST monitor the current and the voltage....and then know WHEN to pull the plug... SO basically, an OWNER must determine WHEN to quit charging as the electronics that switch from "Bulk to Absorb to Float" are no longer functional.  Then, use or discharge the battery to a state where it requires or needs to "Start Recharging"

If one has a Magnum and thinks that all will work well, then continuing to do that puts the Lithiums at risk and they are ignoring the Tech Support's warnings or caveats... 

NOW, how much damage will occur and how long...  Who KNOWS.  It is like riding your brakes.  Many folks do it and they don't get as much life out of their brakes...  You can name many more situations where you ignore all the YELLOW TRIANGLES with "!" marks... and the manufacturer or the operating manual says that there will or may be consequences.

The mission of the Moderating Staff is to flag or comment or remove specific statements that are NOT SUPPORTED by the manual, the manufacturer's instructions or good or safe operating practices.

We can NOT determine the extent or the amount of damage for using the wrong charger on Lithiums.  BUT, since this site is know for complete and accurate information, we will put a NOTE or warning or remove a posting if necessary.

That's about it....

Read, process and come to your own conclusions...but any statement that says any "Magnum" will charge a Lithium battery and work "just fine" will be subject to editing and monitoring.  

Thanks for understanding....and complying.   

 Victron Charging Manual = Lithium Batteries.pdf Manual-Connecting-other-lithium-battery-systems-to-Multis-and-Quattros-EN.pdf

[Grey Goose]

3 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

This question is now being debated like Chicken and Egg...

First...review the following...

https://saft.com/energizing-iot/charging-your-lithium-ion-batteries-5-expert-tips-longer-lifespan

Then read the Victron Manual - Connecting Other Lithiums...It is a PDF below. There are two "critical" Page(s) in each and they have been printed (PDF) for those that want "the bottom line".    

Magnum says that the older chargers, specifically 5.4 or older should NEVER be used with Lithium Batteries.  Theses are the ones in question here.  Magnum did NOT start addressing Lithiums until the 5.5 Version, circa 2014 or so.

Now with the 5.5 - 5.9 versions, it MIGHT be possible to set the OUTPUT to ZERO....after the BATTERY was charged.  That in effect, turns OFF the Float Voltage... Typically 13.0 or so VDC. There is still a small amount of current...in the 2 - 3 amp range.  Note the Victron says that the FLOAT stage (if you look at the charts and understand) will be 0.05 C...certainly not a few amps.

Magnum warns owners that the misconception of using Lithiums with ANY Magnum Inverter/Charger is misinformation and dangerous...especially to the LIFE of the Lithiums.  Even  versions 5.9 or older will NOT WORK PROPERLY. As in, once a Lithium, once has been FULLY CHARGED, and then changing the Charge Percentage to ZERO % may or may NOT eliminate a tiny amount of current that just "flows" or continues to charge the Lithium.

They ONLY RECOMMEND versions 6.0 or newer, with the newer remotes for Lithiums... They also assume that an owner can properly setup or choose the correct Charging profile. In addition you need the latest version or new remote.

Bottom line...  One CAN, if desired, use any flavor of Lead Acid/AGM to start to charge a Lithium. However, one MUST monitor the current and the voltage....and then know WHEN to pull the plug... SO basically, an OWNER must determine WHEN to quit charging as the electronics that switch from "Bulk to Absorb to Float" are no longer functional.  Then, use or discharge the battery to a state where it requires or needs to "Start Recharging"

If one has a Magnum and thinks that all will work well, then continuing to do that puts the Lithiums at risk and they are ignoring the Tech Support's warnings or caveats... 

NOW, how much damage will occur and how long...  Who KNOWS.  It is like riding your brakes.  Many folks do it and they don't get as much life out of their brakes...  You can name many more situations where you ignore all the YELLOW TRIANGLES with "!" marks... and the manufacturer or the operating manual says that there will or may be consequences.

The mission of the Moderating Staff is to flag or comment or remove specific statements that are NOT SUPPORTED by the manual, the manufacturer's instructions or good or safe operating practices.

We can NOT determine the extent or the amount of damage for using the wrong charger on Lithiums.  BUT, since this site is know for complete and accurate information, we will put a NOTE or warning or remove a posting if necessary.

That's about it....

Read, process and come to your own conclusions...but any statement that says any "Magnum" will charge a Lithium battery and work "just fine" will be subject to editing and monitoring.  

Thanks for understanding....and complying.   

Charging your lithium-ion batteries_PG4-5 Expert tips for a longer lifespan _ Saft _ Batteries to energize the world.pdf 186.93 kB · 0 downloads Victron Charging Manual = Lithium Batteries.pdf 1010.24 kB · 0 downloads Manual-Connecting-other-lithium-battery-systems-to-Multis-and-Quattros-EN.pdf 283.18 kB · 0 downloads

The link you sent is for charging lithium ION. I think most in this forum would be using or considering LiFePo4. 

[Tom Cherry]

On 2/25/2024 at 4:56 PM, Grey Goose said:

The link you sent is for charging lithium ION. I think most in this forum would be using or considering LiFePo4. 

Sorry about the type.  You are correct...

BUT, Magnum says DO NOT USE OUR CHAGERS if they are 5.9 OR BELOW.

Victron makes the SAME STATEMENT.

Point of clarification.  YES, One COULD disregard Magnum's advice.  That may have been the intended case or scenario here.

The Lithiums are NOT to be CHARGED CONSTANTLY...as IN whilst driving is you have a BIRD system. On that we can all, I think, agree.

NOW, if one always has a HOUSE LOAD, then, in THEORY, they will be discharging  and the Battery will be depleting and then replenishing..  The amp to amp balance then is debatable,  but you would need more draw than charging to stay out of “Float”…as in a constant low voltage charge.

BUT, if one just "THINKS" that they can put in LiFePO4 Lithiums and use the Magnums that are older, then that MUST be clarified.  Magnum ASSUMES that the owner will use the Charger in storage...as most do...assuming they have power.

They say, without any exceptions, DO NOT USE ANY Magnum Inverter that is NOT Version 5.5 or HIGHER.  The Version 5.5 was upgraded or used circa 2014.  All the chatter here has been in the mid 2000's,  SO either disregard Magnum's SPECIFIC warning or "be at risk"

Then the 5.5 - 5.9 WILL ALSO put you at risk if you try to "Fake it OUT" and set the Charge Percentage to ZERO.  May or MAY NOT WORK.  Magnum disavows any knowledge and says NOT RECOMMENDED.

OK...  Here is the Caveat.  IF you have an OLDER Magnum and want to IGNORE the WARNING...then use it.  Keep the Charger OFF...but Magnum says that sometimes the Charger will detect and start...there is NO WAY to disconnect or program or modify the electronics.

THEN USE THE 150 Amp Diode...and the Magnum will NEVER charge and you WILL need a Supplemental LiFePO4 Approved Multi-Staged Charger...which will have a "ZERO VOLTS & ZERO AMPS" or close mode...

BUT, if ONE understands the issues and does want to protect his Lithiums, then SHUT DOWN, as in TURN OFF the 30 Amp Supply at the Main Panel and the Magnum will NOT charge when the MH is stored. An External charger will be required, obviously suited for Lithium.

SO, don't use the INVERTER and POWER IT DOWN when you are NOT CAMPING....and DO NOT use the BIRD system that allows the Alternator to charge...

YES...then it is PROBABLY OK to try...but be aware, Magnum says NO....take that up with Tech Support and understand it.

All the NEW Version 6.0 Magnums, there is a setting to let you DISBABLE (run SILENT) the Final, THIRD, or FLOAT CHARGE state.  Thus, you can continue to "DO AS BEFORE" Use the MH and no worry about turning OFF the Charger for storage and if the battery, via some parasitic load, begins to discharge...the Lithium Profile, which you can use and presumably modify, will kick in...recharge....the NOT TO TO FLOAT.

I hope THIS clears it up....if NOT.  Then, I guess the debate rages...but the above are the only exceptions....NOT A CARTE BLANCHE "OK to use the old Magnums AS IS and no damage". 

Thanks for catching my error and including Li Ions. 

[waterskier_1]

On 2/1/2024 at 10:07 PM, John C said:

I am in the process of upgrade the whole electric system - lithium batteries, Victron Inverter Charge, DC to DC Charge etc.

My 2007 Dynasty has BATT BOOST:
The Battery Boost switch is used if the motorhome chassis battery is too low to start the engine. Use Battery Boost to momentarily “jump” the house batteries for extra battery
charge.

So if I replace the Magnum with Victron, will this BATT BOOS still work? or this function is tight with Magnum Inverter?

Please advise.

 

Thank you.

There have been many comments, many misleading by well intentioned people.  I didn't read all of them because I got frustrated with what I was reading.  

To answer your immediate question, the Battery Boost switch has nothing to do with your inverter.  Just make sure if you do use a Victron to get the MultiPlus II, which has dual input, dual output. 

Now on to some other things you might wish to consider (some may have been already answered in the previous 4 pages).  

• The Battery Boost switch energizes the Isolator Relay which some refer to as the "Big Boy".  The purpose of this large Relay (some call it a solenoid) is to directly connect the Chassis Batteries and the House Batteries together.
  • This can be energized by the dash mounted Battery Boost Switch or
  • This can also be energized by the BIRD (Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay) circuit.  
    • This circuit analyzes the voltage of both battery banks, and when either bank is over a pre-programmed value (around 13.5 volts) it the circuit will send an appropriate signal to energize the "Big Boy".  There is a Delay in sending this signal originally to allow the engine to come up to speed and thing to settle down (it was part of the original IRD, with was only an Isolator Relay Delay that only allowed the chassis battery charging (i.e., the main engine alternator) to energize the "Big Boy".  It was not Bi-Directional.  
    • Tom has stated that this circuitry is new for the multiplex system, and he may be right, I have never found a need to dive into the circuitry, since I recommend disconnecting it when you go to Lithium Batteries.  If you are not changing to Lithium, this is all a moot point - you would leave all as it was originally installed.

The rationale for disconnecting the BIRD is that it is only a dumb alternator output, which will try and maintain 14.2 - 14.4 volts all the time.  It has no provisions for determining any battery State Of Charge (SOC), much less the SOC of the House Batteries.  If you are like many, and leave your campsite where you had shore power, your House Batteries are likely fully charged.  It is not good for any battery to be held at 14.4 volts for hours on end as you drive to the next destination.  This is true of Lead Acid (Flooded or AGM) but much more critical with Lithium batteries.  I isolate Chassis and the House systems when I first got my coach, and it had relatively new AGM House Batteries.  This has not been a problem for me since I also have 1400 Watts of solar on the roof, with the original 100 Watt panel dedicated specifically to the Chassis Batteries, and the rest to the House Batteries, so I'm charging, if necessary, by solar as I drive.  If it were too cloudy, or I didn't start with charged House Batteries, I could start the generator while driving and use the Inverter/Battery Charger to recharge the House Batteries.  

While I have designed a circuit that allows me to engage the "Big Boy" with the Battery Boost switch while the BIRD is disconnected, I don't recommend doing so.  The rationale here is that the Lithium batteries found in most coaches will not shut down (not good, but not damaging) when you try to pull too much current.  Many are using two 100 A-Hr Lithium batteries, and many of those with cheaper BMS (Battery Management System) will only allow 0.5 C (meaning 50% of the battery capacity rating - 100 A-Hrs in this case) or 50 Amps in this case to be charged or discharged before they shut down (if this BMS didn't control this, the batteries would be destroyed).  Obviously two 50 Amp battery sources (100 Amps total) is not going to start a diesel engine, while at the same time recharging the Chassis batteries, which occurs as soon as the two banks are connected.  You would have to have over 750 A-Hr capacity, with newer higher end BMS that allow for 1.0C (100%) of their capacity to be drawn, and that might not be enough.  My recommendation is to use your or someone else's toad to just the chassis battery, or, if you have time, connect an external battery charger or charge the chassis batteries.

My recommendation for systems I design is unless you know you have a need to supplement the house batteries while driving, to wait on the DC-DC Charger.  It can quite easily be added later, and is independent of the rest of the systems, as far as interfacing is concerned.

Also, be aware that the Victron system don't have an AGS (Automatic Generator Start) that works directly with our Onan generators.  I have designed and recently installed 3 systems that will interface between the two.  Note that you'll need new remote monitoring, a Smart Shunt, or what I recommend, a Battery Monitor (which has a smart shunt plus additional functionality built-in).  I am NOT a fan of monitoring via Bluetooth only, but that is the direction that all four Solar Installers in Quartzsite are pushing.  It's cheaper, not just in electronics, you use your existing phone or tablet, but also in installation - there are no wires to run to a remote reading monitor.  Just another thing to think about.  

If you have other questions, please let me know.  

  -Rick N.

Casa Grande, AZ