315s on a 8.25” rim.

[Ivylog]

I put 315s on the front of my 04 Dynasty 10 years ago... when more manufacturers approved them on a 8.25” rim. Contrary to what some say about derating the psi (very little advantage over 295s) the issue is a 8.25” rim is only rated for 7600 lbs. A 315 as a dual is not derated because at max psi (120 psi) it is NOT exceeding 7600 lbs... I kept reading the footnotes on derating. Today fewer manufacturers list a 8.25” rim for a 315... more lawyers have gotten involved.

I  put 40K miles on the Dynasty with 315s at 12 psi less than what a 295 needed... no unusual wear although both outer edges of the tires were worn slightly more than the middles. Yes the RFront is a tight fit on a 42’ rig...not so on a 45’ rig.

One of the first things I did to my 08 Navigator was removing the 4 year old cracking Michelin’s and put 315 Continental on. The first thing was to slide under and adjust the TRW box after 200 miles of ownership. Have only put 18K miles on the 315s but I cannot feel or see any unusual wear. Even with wider front steps, there is plenty of room for a 315 on a 45’ coach.

Once I put 315s on the front there was no need for 295s on the rear so I put the same diameter 11Rs on, increasing the psi 8 because of the lower load carrying. Have not decided if I’ll do the same on the Navigator because the drive is at 23K.

Why can Michelin use 5 less psi??? PSI is pounds per square inch so Michelin’s have a bigger footprint... softer sidewalls and possible a slightly wider tread.

 

Your mileage and opinions may vary.

[rpasetto]

Glad to hear about your experience with the Continentals.  I've never used the brand on a coach but have also been looking at them for eventual use.  Looked recently at the 2020 Micheliin's Truck tire book.  Looks like they've now footnoted: "Not approved for us e with 8.25 wheel." on the 315's.  Wonder if they've been having warranty problems with them or just avoiding the "de-rating" issue.

I'll definitely look into Conti's when the time comes.  Keep us apprised of your experiences with them.

[willbo777]

I tried to put 315's on my 2007 45' coach and they would not fit on the front right, interfered with the air bag mount.

[Guest Ray Davis]

 I have heard of Continental tires for many yrs, don't think I have owned any though.   I began to wonder if they were a lesser brand of some other company so I googled them.   I learned a lot about tire companies and I found out Continental is an old German Co. and that most tire companies are actually foreign owned but made here.   The only American owned companies according to what I found are Goodyear and Cooper. 

 Interesting stuff,  I have Michleins up front and Toyos on the rear.   I hope that doesn't make me unpatriotic,  I don't think so who would have thought Toyo wasn't an  American co. anyway and Michelin they are French, our friends .... right, not sure about that either.  That friendship may be cracking just like their tires.

 You can read about it here.   https://www.utires.com/articles/tires-made-usa-american-foreign-brands/

Edited November 21, 2020 by Ray Davis

[Paul J A]

Had Continental Tires on my Mercedes back in the 70's. as OEM. 

 

[Ivylog]

I had Firestone FS400 315s on my Dynasty...were back ordered when needing ones for my Navigator.
When I’m out of the US I look at what tires are on tour buses. In Western Canada most have Continental. In Portugal they were Triangle. In France, yes Michelin.

Surprised that a 45’ 07 Navigator didn’t have room for 315s. 
 

10 years ago Michelin listed a 8.25 for a 315...knew that was no longer true.

[georgecederholm]

On 11/20/2020 at 6:11 AM, Ivylog said:

I put 315s on the front of my 04 Dynasty 10 years ago... when more manufacturers approved them on a 8.25” rim. Contrary to what some say about derating the psi (very little advantage over 295s) the issue is a 8.25” rim is only rated for 7600 lbs. A 315 as a dual is not derated because at max psi (120 psi) it is NOT exceeding 7600 lbs... I kept reading the footnotes on derating. Today fewer manufacturers list a 8.25” rim for a 315... more lawyers have gotten involved.

I  put 40K miles on the Dynasty with 315s at 12 psi less than what a 295 needed... no unusual wear although both outer edges of the tires were worn slightly more than the middles. Yes the RFront is a tight fit on a 42’ rig...not so on a 45’ rig.

One of the first things I did to my 08 Navigator was removing the 4 year old cracking Michelin’s and put 315 Continental on. The first thing was to slide under and adjust the TRW box after 200 miles of ownership. Have only put 18K miles on the 315s but I cannot feel or see any unusual wear. Even with wider front steps, there is plenty of room for a 315 on a 45’ coach.

Once I put 315s on the front there was no need for 295s on the rear so I put the same diameter 11Rs on, increasing the psi 8 because of the lower load carrying. Have not decided if I’ll do the same on the Navigator because the drive is at 23K.

Why can Michelin use 5 less psi??? PSI is pounds per square inch so Michelin’s have a bigger footprint... softer sidewalls and possible a slightly wider tread.

 

Your mileage and opinions may vary.

I've been running 315s on 8.25" original rims on our 2005 45' Exec since 2009. Upgraded the tires on our way to Alaska that year. Michelin XZA1 on Steer and BFGoodrich equivalents on the Tag for a "warm spare" (never needed). Tried to do the same with a friend's 2006 Dynasty but found the clearance issue with the right front air bag perch. Monaco made chassis changes between 2005 and 2006 model years.

When first Michelins started cracking (my bad; no proper maintenance/covering in AZ storage), I replaced the XZA1s with XZA2 Energy 315 which, at the time, were $50/tire cheaper than 295s (demand?). Put Toyo M111z 315s on the Drive in 2013. Ran the BFGs over 9 years on the Tag. Spring of 2019, moved Michelins to Tag and put Continental HA3 Coach 315s on the Steer. Very happy with them. Spring of 2020, changed Drive to Continental HSA2 in 12R22.5 and very happy with them, too. Went with 12R over 11R because of the 23k axle rating (knowing I'm very close to that). 12Rs are a little narrower than the 315s and give a little better dual spacing. About 3% further roll per mile due to the increased diameter doesn't throw the speedometer off that much, especially since I use the GPS for speed display anyway.

My plan going forward is to replace the Steers at 3 years and move those to the Tag for 3 more. Then to replace the Drive every 5 or 7 years to smooth out the expense curve. All the Michelins and Continentals I bought after 2013 or so were with the FMCA program. I found the FMCA deal to be easier to use on the Continentals.

And, yes, my mileage does vary... 😂

Edited November 21, 2020 by georgecederholm
Typos

[rpasetto]

22 minutes ago, georgecederholm said:

I've been running 315s on 8.25" original rims on our 2005 45' Exec since 2009. Upgraded the tires on our way to Alaska that year. Michelin XZA1 on Steer and BFGoodrich equivalents on the Tag for a "warm spare" (never needed). Tried to do the same with a friend's 2006 Dynasty but found the clearance issue with the right front air bag perch. Monaco made chassis changes between 2005 and 2006 model years.

When first Michelins started cracking (my bad; no proper maintenance/covering in AZ storage), I replaced the XZA1s with XZA2 Energy 315 which, at the time, were $50/tire cheaper than 295s (demand?). Put Toyo M111z 315s on the Drive in 2013. Ran the BFGs over 9 years on the Tag. Spring of 2019, moved Michelins to Tag and put Continental HA3 Coach 315s on the Steer. Very happy with them. Spring of 2020, changed Drive to Continental HSA2 in 12R22.5 and very happy with them, too. Went with 12R over 11R because of the 23k axle rating (knowing I'm very close to that). 12Rs are a little narrower than the 315s and give a little better dual spacing. About 3% further roll per mile due to the increased diameter doesn't throw the speedometer off that much, especially since I use the GPS for speed display anyway.

My plan going forward is to replace the Steers at 3 years and move those to the Tag for 3 more. Then to replace the Drive every 5 or 7 years to smooth out the expense curve. All the Michelins and Continentals I bought after 2013 or so were with the FMCA program. I found the FMCA deal to be easier to use on the Continentals.

And, yes, my mileage does vary... 😂

Good point about the 12R's vs 11R's regarding dual spacing.  I checked the Continental load inflation charts and didn't see anything like the "Not approved for use with 8.25 wheel." about the 315's, like Michelin is now doing.   I did notice a statement "Always use approved tire and rim combinations" but did not find their list of those approved combinations.

[georgecederholm]

3 minutes ago, rpasetto said:

Good point about the 12R's vs 11R's regarding dual spacing.  I checked the Continental load inflation charts and didn't see anything like the "Not approved for use with 8.25 wheel." about the 315's, like Michelin is now doing.   I did notice a statement "Always use approved tire and rim combinations" but did not find their list of those approved combinations.

I found the rim information here:

https://www.continental-truck.com/truck/products/tires/people/ccha3

and here (select the 12R if the 10R shows first):

https://www.continental-truck.com/truck/products/tires/people/hsr2

On each page, scroll down to the "Product Range" section.

[Twomed]

Have been running Firestone FS400  315's on our 2006 Dynasty for about 8 years now....thanks Dick!    I did have to shift the right front air bag a little bit on the mounting plate and grind about 1/2 inch off the plate for clearance.  No problems since.  Running 100psi and Koni's from birth and there is almost no bumping on transitions, way less than the other two RR10's I drive occasionally.   AND...like Ivylog I talked to lots of tour bus drivers that come through Yellowstone in the summer FS400's and Continentals are the two top choices of company owned coaches as well as owner operators.

https://www.tiresdirect.net/toyo-m177-295-75r22-5-149-146l-h16.html   These are my rears and steers...on since 07/2019 and running great.  Link today is actually $2 per tire less than I paid!   This is a huge tire dealer in Chicago, tires were dated two onths old when I got them...THAT'S FRESH!  Paid a local truck tire shop in Idaho $250 to accept shipment and mounted/balanced.   https://www.toyotires.com/commercial-truck/tire/pattern/m177-long-haul-steer-tire  more info.

Note the product code of 547130 thais the H load rating to get the 7,160 max load single.   More than enough even for your 23k axles on the 45' coaches.

https://www.toyotires.com/media/2155/2017_commercial_loadandinflation_tables.pdf   Second 295/75/22.5 line for the H range 547130 skins.

Chuck U 

Long time lurker here, irv2 poster over 300k miles on Safari and Monaco avowed shop avoider 🙂

 

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Twomed

[Ivylog]

Chuck, that’s a really good price for 295s. Does that ($410) include tax? I have a local tire shop that charges $25/tire to mount. 4 295s can carry the same load as 4 11R22.5 at 5 less psi ((100 instead of 105 for 23K lbs). I add 5 psi to the load tables because I still go when there are strong crosswinds which is most of the time out West...picture is of how much crab my adjustable stabilizer will correct for.

[Twomed]

That is the total price per tire...no additional taxes, free shipping.  They have had the free ship for several years, did the deal first on Lady friend's Panther in 2018.  They come banded on skids so a tow motor or cut and toss.  Not sure what happens if you try a residential delivery, I used direct to tire shop because I didn't want to load/unload the beasts.  I guess if someone ships to Calitaxia there could be additional taxes???

I called and spoke with them first and had them check stock for tire dates.  Very helpful folks on the phone.  AND...neat tracking for the truck carrier, not quite FedEx but it gave me enough info to give a heads up to my tire guy.

You got me looking a little bit since seeing your new coach...glad the bride didn't see it or I would probably be in big trouble. 🙂

Edited November 22, 2020 by Twomed

[Hotrod - R.I.P.]

A 315 on an 8.25 rim is de-rated because The narrower rim moves the flex point in the sidewall farther outward. That is not the optimal flex point. That makes it harder to flex and thus the tire runs a little harder , having to dissipate added heat. So for a given energy dissipation rate at a given speed, the tire cannot carry as much as it could on a 9” rim. What one might learn from this is that the 315 reduces your mpg, having to dissipate more energy as heat than a 295.

 

bill g

06 dynasty

 

On 11/20/2020 at 7:11 AM, Ivylog said:

I put 315s on the front of my 04 Dynasty 10 years ago... when more manufacturers approved them on a 8.25” rim. Contrary to what some say about derating the psi (very little advantage over 295s) the issue is a 8.25” rim is only rated for 7600 lbs. A 315 as a dual is not derated because at max psi (120 psi) it is NOT exceeding 7600 lbs... I kept reading the footnotes on derating. Today fewer manufacturers list a 8.25” rim for a 315... more lawyers have gotten involved.

I  put 40K miles on the Dynasty with 315s at 12 psi less than what a 295 needed... no unusual wear although both outer edges of the tires were worn slightly more than the middles. Yes the RFront is a tight fit on a 42’ rig...not so on a 45’ rig.

One of the first things I did to my 08 Navigator was removing the 4 year old cracking Michelin’s and put 315 Continental on. The first thing was to slide under and adjust the TRW box after 200 miles of ownership. Have only put 18K miles on the 315s but I cannot feel or see any unusual wear. Even with wider front steps, there is plenty of room for a 315 on a 45’ coach.

Once I put 315s on the front there was no need for 295s on the rear so I put the same diameter 11Rs on, increasing the psi 8 because of the lower load carrying. Have not decided if I’ll do the same on the Navigator because the drive is at 23K.

Why can Michelin use 5 less psi??? PSI is pounds per square inch so Michelin’s have a bigger footprint... softer sidewalls and possible a slightly wider tread.

 

Your mileage and opinions may vary.

A Michelin uses 5psi less air pressure than other brands because its “virtual” foot print is larger. Since a 295 casing is a 295 casing then the difference is in the length of the chord struck on the pavement . That’s why Michelin’s have the low on air look. The pressure x the virtual area = the load. At 100 psi the Michelin’s strikes a 5 percent longer chord than the other brands . They Can do this because their sidewalk is more flexible than other brands . The actual tread width is less than other brands. 
 

bill g 

06 dynasty

[Twomed]

6 minutes ago, Hotrod said:

A 315 on an 8.25 rim is de-rated because The narrower rim moves the flex point in the sidewall farther outward. That is not the optimal flex point. That makes it harder to flex and thus the tire runs a little harder , having to dissipate added heat. So for a given energy dissipation rate at a given speed, the tire cannot carry as much as it could on a 9” rim. What one might learn from this is that the 315 reduces your mpg, having to dissipate more energy as heat than a 295.

 

bill g

06 dynasty

 

For whatever it's worth my Aladdin shows 7.1 mpg over 140K.  The 315 even on the 8.25 carries plenty on the 14,600 axle.  COMFORT...no pounding on crappy roads is more important than mpg.  I do check my tite temps on walk arounds and the fronts run within 5 degrees of outside duals and tags consistently. 

[Guest Ray Davis]

1 hour ago, Twomed said:

Have been running Firestone FS400  315's on our 2006 Dynasty for about 8 years now....thanks Dick!    I did have to shift the right front air bag a little bit on the mounting plate and grind about 1/2 inch off the plate for clearance.  No problems since.  Running 100psi and Koni's from birth and there is almost no bumping on transitions, way less than the other two RR10's I drive occasionally.   AND...like Ivylog I talked to lots of tour bus drivers that come through Yellowstone in the summer FS400's and Continentals are the two top choices of company owned coaches as well as owner operators.

https://www.tiresdirect.net/toyo-m177-295-75r22-5-149-146l-h16.html   These are my rears and steers...on since 07/2019 and running great.  Link today is actually $2 per tire less than I paid!   This is a huge tire dealer in Chicago, tires were dated two onths old when I got them...THAT'S FRESH!  Paid a local truck tire shop in Idaho $250 to accept shipment and mounted/balanced.   https://www.toyotires.com/commercial-truck/tire/pattern/m177-long-haul-steer-tire  more info.

Note the product code of 547130 thais the H load rating to get the 7,160 max load single.   More than enough even for your 23k axles on the 45' coaches.

https://www.toyotires.com/media/2155/2017_commercial_loadandinflation_tables.pdf   Second 295/75/22.5 line for the H range 547130 skins.

Chuck U 

Long time lurker here, irv2 poster over 300k miles on Safari and Monaco avowed shop avoider 🙂

 

 

 

 Chuck,  The link is for 295x75x 295s   is that the correct size ?

[Ivylog]

8 minutes ago, Hotrod said:

A 315 on an 8.25 rim is de-rated because The narrower rim moves the flex point in the sidewall farther outward. That is not the optimal flex point. That makes it harder to flex and thus the tire runs a little harder , having to dissipate added heat. So for a given energy dissipation rate at a given speed, the tire cannot carry as much as it could on a 9” rim. What one might learn from this is that the 315 reduces your mpg, having to dissipate more energy as heat than a 295.

 

bill g

06 dynasty

 

So we should run max sidewall pressure (regardless of load table psi) to decrease the amount of flex??! Strange that my 315s do not run any hotter than the 295s they replaced.

7 minutes ago, Ray Davis said:

 

 Chuck,  The link is for 295x75x 295s   is that the correct size ?

Good catch...they have 6 Toyo M144 295/80/22.5 for $2500 or $417/tire.

[Twomed]

36 minutes ago, Ray Davis said:

 

 Chuck,  The link is for 295x75x 295s   is that the correct size ?

Those are the ones I bought...the tire height 40.1 and load capability is what  was looking for...80s were not available at the time, and the 75s are closer to 11r size which would be easy to find on the road if necessary.  Just a choice.  I replaced 12r's that I was running and they were a little to tall, they would be on the frame in some leveling situations. 

[amphi_sc]

16 hours ago, georgecederholm said:

I found the rim information here:

https://www.continental-truck.com/truck/products/tires/people/ccha3

and here (select the 12R if the 10R shows first):

https://www.continental-truck.com/truck/products/tires/people/hsr2

On each page, scroll down to the "Product Range" section.

You referenced the HSR2, but how about the HSR2 SA?

https://www.continental-truck.com/truck/products/tires/people/hsr2-sa

The top of the page says a steer regional tire however further down the page says steer or all position, regional/long haul, bus or large RV. Both the 295 and 315 approved for 8.25 or 9 inch rims.

So would the regional characteristics be better for the off interstate application of secondary roads and campgrounds vs a true long haul tire?  Would the stiffer sidewall construction run noticeably harsher? Would it really make much of a difference in lowering fuel mileage?  

My local dealer beat the FMCA price by almost a hundred bucks per tire and was willing to take the effort to get good date codes from the warehouse.  And the shop had plenty of 18 wheelers lined up for tires so I guess they do a good volume although the trucks/trailers typically used a lighter duty tire.

Although I had always liked Michelin on my cars and pickups, after two sets cracking on the RV I'm thinking elsewhere, but still up on the air.  I can get almost two Continental's for the price of one Michelin.  Going thru western Canada and Alaska I saw a lot of tour busses running Continentals but I didn't pay specific attention to the tire model.  I've heard the Toyo's have a special "country farm" odor to them but don't know that from experience.

[Twomed]

Country farm odor goes away after a few thousand miles, washes, rain runs.  Smells like $avings to me. 

Just a side note I remember at one of the Orlando Rallys back in the heyday around 2004 or so some of  the show coaches were sporting 315's.   As the snowflake heritage proves consistently this may or may not have ever become a production item.

[Paul J A]

We attended a Monaco Int'l. Pre Rally at Lancaster, Ca. in March, 2006. I met a Michelin Tire Design Engineer who was working at the Michelin both, and who eventually went to Pomona, Ca. to work at the FMCA Rally. I had ordered a new 07 Executive and was interested in his input about the 315-80R-22.5 Tire . He informed me that that product was developed to address the many failures , warranty claims from Trash Haulers, garbage trucks. Back then they did not use any on board weighing devises such as Scale-O-Matic which i had had on our Co. trucks. The tire was designed for 9" rims, and subsequently to satisfy a larger market, they developed an inflation/ weight capacity chart for 8.25" rims.

After taking delivery of our Executive in 6-06, i had the 295-80-22.5 Badyears removed and had 315-80R-22.5 Michelins installed on the 8.25" OEM Rims, and Sold the 8 Badyear tires to a friend who had a Trucking business. Ran those tires from 5-07 to Spring of 2014 , full timing. Never an issue. I used Nitrogen, by MY choice.

Attached is a picture of my Aladdin screen , using a particular trip, that i kept just for accumulative mileage. This JUST indicates Cruising Miles.  I had 79K miles on the coach/ tires when i Sold it.

[Guest Ray Davis]

42 minutes ago, amphi_sc said:

I've heard the Toyo's have a special "country farm" odor to them but don't know that from experience

  I didn't get that smell with mine, I feel cheated.  😒

  I live in the country, smells like money to me.   🤑

[Ivylog]

Thanks everyone for keeping this a 295/315 discussions...OK, I threw in 11Rs. Would I use a 315 on a 8.25” rim if I had to run 120+psi...heck no as that could put 9,000 lbs on a rim designed for 7600 lbs. 

The key for me deciding to use a 315 without derating its carrying capacity was when used as a dual it wasn’t derated because it didn’t exceed 7600 lbs. Based on the 40,000 miles I put on my Dynasty with 315s, it was a easy choice to use them on my Navigator ...105 psi instead of 117 in a 295. No noticeable uneven wear, but only 20K miles is not a good test.

As I said originally, 10 years ago more manufacturers included a 8.25” rim for a 315...Continental still does. As Chuck said, a lot of US tour buses use Firestone and Continental tires. Since our tires age out, I doubt there’s any difference between using a HSR2 or a -SA. 
 

After decades of Michelin only, I stopped buying them 15 years ago when Michelin would not stand behind their XRV that some, fortunately, blew out standing still. Unbelievable the # of different 22.5 tires Michelin makes. Doubt in our application it makes any difference which one as long as you don’t mind them cracking at 4 years.

[Ivan K]

Since this discussion often mentioned 11R22.5, hope you don't mind me asking. What are the cons for using them on the steers? Our 00 Sig came with them on the build sheet as well as the driver side sticker and I have them all around, all 8 of them. ~40k miles on all of them and no problems. 13k front axle with 12.5k lbs actual weight. Michelin XZA3+ LRH with no cracking what so ever, nice even wear. Due for replacement soon and deciding... I would go with them again unless there is something I don't know about, yet. Thanks.

I need to add that this is not a question about manufacturer but rather about the 11R22.5 size on steers.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Ivan K

[georgecederholm]

4 hours ago, amphi_sc said:

You referenced the HSR2, but how about the HSR2 SA?

https://www.continental-truck.com/truck/products/tires/people/hsr2-sa

The top of the page says a steer regional tire however further down the page says steer or all position, regional/long haul, bus or large RV. Both the 295 and 315 approved for 8.25 or 9 inch rims.

So would the regional characteristics be better for the off interstate application of secondary roads and campgrounds vs a true long haul tire?  Would the stiffer sidewall construction run noticeably harsher? Would it really make much of a difference in lowering fuel mileage?  

My local dealer beat the FMCA price by almost a hundred bucks per tire and was willing to take the effort to get good date codes from the warehouse.  And the shop had plenty of 18 wheelers lined up for tires so I guess they do a good volume although the trucks/trailers typically used a lighter duty tire.

Although I had always liked Michelin on my cars and pickups, after two sets cracking on the RV I'm thinking elsewhere, but still up on the air.  I can get almost two Continental's for the price of one Michelin.  Going thru western Canada and Alaska I saw a lot of tour busses running Continentals but I didn't pay specific attention to the tire model.  I've heard the Toyo's have a special "country farm" odor to them but don't know that from experience.

Al,

As I was using the FMCA program, the HSR2 SA was not included in their list (see below). I have never had an issue with Regional use profiles for tires since I don't really consider our usage pattern to be overwhelmingly "Long Haul". We use Interstates, of course, but not exclusively. Some of our driving days are several hundred miles but a lot are much shorter. When we "do the Pacific Coast", we often have less than 50 miles between stops at Elks Lodges, and lots of non-highway driving. Regional is fine for me, especially since I'm using these on my Drive axle.

My local tire shop (Redburn, Phoenix) also does a good business with all kinds of trucks, local and over-the-road. I've asked if they can beat FMCA on the Continentals and the response has been that the FMCA price is less than they would pay wholesale. Do I believe that? No. Would I have accepted an answer that they weren't in a position to beat that price? Yes. Was I OK with $507/tire? Yes.

I had Michelin cracking on the XZA1 and XZA2 Energy lines, but once I started taking better care (covers when in storage, 303 spray monthly) that stopped completely. I've written off my cracking results as self-inflicted and do not blame Michelin but I'm in the minority on that (No "Michelin sucks and won't this or that" comments, please; I've heard 'em all.) But, I didn't have any sidewall checking on the Toyos after 8 years or the BFGoodrich (purportedly made by Michelin at the time) after almost 10 years. So, Michelin may be more susceptible but also less so if protected. 

I do not recall any funny odor from the Toyos but they were in the Drive axle so position may matter. I do know that they wore like iron and looked almost new when they were done.

 

[Ivylog]

11R22.5 is probably the most common truck tire...should be less expensive and no reason to pay Michelin’s inflated prices.

A Toyo 11R  can carry 6320 at 110... same as your chart above at hundreds $$ less.