2000 Holiday Rambler Steps Not Extending

[CAT Stephen]

How can I discover what electric steps are installed on my coach and what is the troubleshooting procedure to isolate the root cause?

[CAT Stephen]

My coach is a Holiday Rambler Endeavor 38WDD.

[Rikadoo]

I have a 2003 Endeavor, there is a packet in with “The box” of information that came with mine that says make an model.

[daveyjo]

I have replaced the control board on my 2005 HR Scepter twice.  I found the correct replacement board from Veurinks (164889 Electric Step Control Module REV 1 $149.99) and Lippert, the manufacturer, confirms that it is the correct board.  The first replacement quit again after a year or so.  The second replacement quit recently, but when I crawled under to check it I found the board connector had come apart and and all it required was to plug it back in.  It was hard to get it correctly plugged back in, which is why it came apart to start with (I did it poorly).  But that is probably not your problem.  You can easily check the  motor by applying 12 volts to it's two leads and then reversing them to get  it to run the other way.  But neither of the two replacement boards would work in my coach until I modified the boards by reversing the red and yellow leads.  Maybe it was that my coach was wired incorrectly, or that  Lippert is wrong.  But the solution was simple, and it only took me a couple days to figure it out!

Here is the post I published in June, 2020 after solving the problem.  Hope it helps.  Also attached are three publications about Lippert steps.  Good luck!

---------------------------------

Power step problem identified.

 Thanks for the suggestions on my controller board problem.  I recently posted about problems with a new control module for my 2005 HR Scepter power step.  I spent several days trying to solve my step issue, and thought I would post my solution in case someone else encounters the same problem.

 I bought a Lippert Electric Step Control Module, REV  164889.  The package label says it is for all Lippert steps, but clearly it isn’t.  I installed it but it did not work.  After testing it against a Lippert test procedure, it appeared defective so I got a new one, which tested the same way.  My conclusion – I must be doing something wrong, so I went back to the drawing board.  I discovered that the Monaco wiring harness in my coach didn’t match up with the new control board, i.e., the red and yellow leads on the new module were reversed from that on my old module at the 4 prong connector, as well as reversed from the coach side wiring harness color code.  I reversed the red and yellow leads on the module, and it now works mostly.  (The coach red was +12V dc, the yellow 0 volts with ignition off, +12v with ignition on.) 

 The only issue now is that, after extending, the steps won’t retract unless I turn the ignition on, which makes it hard to store the coach with the steps retracted.  But even that can be overcome if I turn the chassis power off, then back on while steps retract, and then off again.

  The only module I could find for my 2005 Scepter is the one I bought, but there must be another module that would match the coach side connector and my old defective module.  FYI, Lippert does sell a different shape module for 2006 and newer coaches, so I clearly didn’t have the 2006 and newer module.

  I hope this will help someone else solve a step issue.

 

 

Electric_Step_Instructions_Lippert_052620171159am.pdf Kwikee_Electric_Steps_reg___888_Owner_s_Manual.pdf kwikee_svc_manual.pdf

[Gary 05 AMB DST]

I eliminated the electronics on my steps when I couldn't get a model number. Ran 12v to the step motor, put a up/down switch in the same spot on the dash. Put a magnetic sensor on the step and frame that lights when steps are out. Got tired of dealing with electronics.

Gary 05 AMB DST

[Tom Cherry]

4 hours ago, daveyjo said:

I have replaced the control board on my 2005 HR Scepter twice.  I found the correct replacement board from Veurinks (164889 Electric Step Control Module REV 1 $149.99) and Lippert, the manufacturer, confirms that it is the correct board.  The first replacement quit again after a year or so.  The second replacement quit recently, but when I crawled under to check it I found the board connector had come apart and and all it required was to plug it back in.  It was hard to get it correctly plugged back in, which is why it came apart to start with (I did it poorly).  But that is probably not your problem.  You can easily check the  motor by applying 12 volts to it's two leads and then reversing them to get  it to run the other way.  But neither of the two replacement boards would work in my coach until I modified the boards by reversing the red and yellow leads.  Maybe it was that my coach was wired incorrectly, or that  Lippert is wrong.  But the solution was simple, and it only took me a couple days to figure it out!

Here is the post I published in June, 2020 after solving the problem.  Hope it helps.  Also attached are three publications about Lippert steps.  Good luck!

---------------------------------

Power step problem identified.

 Thanks for the suggestions on my controller board problem.  I recently posted about problems with a new control module for my 2005 HR Scepter power step.  I spent several days trying to solve my step issue, and thought I would post my solution in case someone else encounters the same problem.

 I bought a Lippert Electric Step Control Module, REV  164889.  The package label says it is for all Lippert steps, but clearly it isn’t.  I installed it but it did not work.  After testing it against a Lippert test procedure, it appeared defective so I got a new one, which tested the same way.  My conclusion – I must be doing something wrong, so I went back to the drawing board.  I discovered that the Monaco wiring harness in my coach didn’t match up with the new control board, i.e., the red and yellow leads on the new module were reversed from that on my old module at the 4 prong connector, as well as reversed from the coach side wiring harness color code.  I reversed the red and yellow leads on the module, and it now works mostly.  (The coach red was +12V dc, the yellow 0 volts with ignition off, +12v with ignition on.) 

 The only issue now is that, after extending, the steps won’t retract unless I turn the ignition on, which makes it hard to store the coach with the steps retracted.  But even that can be overcome if I turn the chassis power off, then back on while steps retract, and then off again.

  The only module I could find for my 2005 Scepter is the one I bought, but there must be another module that would match the coach side connector and my old defective module.  FYI, Lippert does sell a different shape module for 2006 and newer coaches, so I clearly didn’t have the 2006 and newer module.

  I hope this will help someone else solve a step issue.

 

 

Electric_Step_Instructions_Lippert_052620171159am.pdf 80.03 kB · 1 download Kwikee_Electric_Steps_reg___888_Owner_s_Manual.pdf 1.15 MB · 2 downloads kwikee_svc_manual.pdf 13.33 MB · 2 downloads

Good information.  I can add a little background..the earlier steps circa 2005 were made in Texas at the CoachStep factory..  small operation and they made 2 styles. Kwikee was a private brand.  Interestingly, they used similar parts and motors and maybe controls.  Lippert purchased CoachStep and moved the operation to  one of their factories and added the Lippert Name. and within a year redesigned the controller by adding “potting” of the connector and the electronic module as they realized it was a high failure item.  Past that, it was manufactured on the same tooling and has the same electronics.  Mine was manufactured in early 2008.  The controller was flaky from day one.  I had the full first year warranty thru a quirk in the extended warranty and the dealer resealed and swapped out the magnetic switch.  Hit a puddle and idiot light switch would come on.  They replaced it near the end of the warranty and no idiot light, but the motor failed in mid 2020.  I pulled it apart and tested the wiring….good control.  Bad motor.  Ordered one and it would not align to get the mounting bolts to start.  Local CW had an OEM Motor on sale and I negotiated a fixed install cost.  Don’t know if the tech drilled out the holes in the motor casting….it was and is fixed.  We were not full timers but spent almost 2 years out from 2009 to 2020.  Lippert told me to not used the in&out on every opening.  My switch in the “down” (memory) would cycle it every time.  So one year, I left it in, but took a little noodling and fiddling to get it to stay out and not cycle.  I chose to leave it alone.  There is a cheap replaceable cover on AMAZON and is indoor/outdoor carpet and acts like a mat to reduce incoming dirt.  I replace the $15 cover every 4 years….

read the docs that DaveJo posted.  Search STEP in both the FILES & TOPICS.  Lots of info.

[Gary 05 AMB DST]

18 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Good information.  I can add a little background..the earlier steps circa 2005 were made in Texas at the CoachStep factory..  small operation and they made 2 styles. Kwikee was a private brand.  Interestingly, they used similar parts and motors and maybe controls.  Lippert purchased CoachStep and moved the operation to  one of their factories and added the Lippert Name. and within a year redesigned the controller by adding “potting” of the connector and the electronic module as they realized it was a high failure item.  Past that, it was manufactured on the same tooling and has the same electronics.  Mine was manufactured in early 2008.  The controller was flaky from day one.  I had the full first year warranty thru a quirk in the extended warranty and the dealer resealed and swapped out the magnetic switch.  Hit a puddle and idiot light switch would come on.  They replaced it near the end of the warranty and no idiot light, but the motor failed in mid 2020.  I pulled it apart and tested the wiring….good control.  Bad motor.  Ordered one and it would not align to get the mounting bolts to start.  Local CW had an OEM Motor on sale and I negotiated a fixed install cost.  Don’t know if the tech drilled out the holes in the motor casting….it was and is fixed.  We were not full timers but spent almost 2 years out from 2009 to 2020.  Lippert told me to not used the in&out on every opening.  My switch in the “down” (memory) would cycle it every time.  So one year, I left it in, but took a little noodling and fiddling to get it to stay out and not cycle.  I chose to leave it alone.  There is a cheap replaceable cover on AMAZON and is indoor/outdoor carpet and acts like a mat to reduce incoming dirt.  I replace the $15 cover every 4 years….

read the docs that DaveJo posted.  Search STEP in both the FILES & TOPICS.  Lots of info.

Change the cover every 4 years? I wait till a hole has worn into the carpet.

Gary 05 AMB DST

[Tom Cherry]

10 minutes ago, Gary 05 AMB DST said:

Change the cover every 4 years? I wait till a hole has worn into the carpet.

Gary 05 AMB DST

Will “change the replaceable cover every 4 years or so as the carpet wearing and there may be a hole or too…..and DW tells me to get a new one and has complete control and authority over fabric texture and color” be acceptable?  LOL.  It is not on a spreadsheet ot long range 5 year planning.

BUT I do have some items that are and I sorta plan my PM in advance.

[CAT Stephen]

Thank you everyone for your excellent input on this topic! 

I wanted to share with you the outcome:

- From the documentation that Dave Jones provided (thanks Dave!!), and the free telephone technical support from Lippert (Lippert now owns Kwikee), I isolated the issue to a defective controller

- I was very pleased with Lippert's direct technical support on this product!

- Lippert's technical support advised that, since my Kwikee Series 32 step was made before 2004, I would need to order a complete electronics and mechanical upgrade kit including a new motor assembly, new gearbox, new controller, and new door switch (Everything but the step) since the pre-2004 electronics and mechanicals are no longer available and are not compatible with currently available Lippert Kwikee parts. This upgrade package is currently available from Lippert for $560.00 plus tax and ~$75 shipping.

 

Given the high cost of the upgrade kit, I purchased a complete factory new Kwikee Series 32 Electric Step Assembly for $592.10 from Amazon with free shipping which is $42.10 less than the upgrade kit directly from Lippert, I get the new product warranty, and I save ~1-2 hours of my installation labor dealing with swapping virtually everything on the legacy downlevel step.

- https://www.amazon.com/Lippert-Components-372261-Kwikee-Electric/dp/B01F92UZBW/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

In summary, due to the age of my Pre-2004 Lippert Kwikee electric step resulting in all parts (except the step and linkages) being unavailable for purchase, I had to purchase an entire new electric step assembly.  What I thought would be a simple control module replacement for $85 has become expensive $592.00 step into another RV maintenance saga!

Edited March 8, 2023 by CAT Stephen

[Viper04]

On 3/7/2023 at 8:14 AM, Rikadoo said:

I have a 2003 Endeavor, there is a packet in with “The box” of information that came with mine that says make a model.

 Keep a large rubber hammer handy in the bay nearest the steps. When they won't extend or sometimes retract, I give the motor a BIG WACK. Rubber hammer cost 2 bucks at the flea market. Also spray the motor and step joints til soaked with Krill or WD40. After a few "wackings" the steps usually get the idea and work on their own. 
 

Tim

2000 Dynasty

[kenandjoanne2002]

I did not read all the replies to non working electric step.  I have had three separate coaches (mine and two others) where the step was stuck either in or out.  Using a hammer and tapping the motor got all three working. Mine and one other have continued for years without another problem.  The third one started sticking again so he replaced the motor.  Ken 02 Diplomat 38pdd

[Rikadoo]

Hey fyi i just had a coach in the shop the other day, its steps would not extend. I saw when the door was opened an closed you could see the step light 1st dim then brighten like the motor was getting power then it cycled off, i found where the shaft comes out to meet the actuator there is a clevis pin, it had worked its way out far enough that it jambed its self in the body of the gearbox. Once i got it free i hammered it back in place flush with the shaft, now they work great.

[Tom Cherry]

Typically, per techs and Lippert, the magnets in the motors will not be glued or double stuck in place.  Hitting it will sometimes reseat them.  If the mechanism isn’t lubricated periodically, then there may be a high resistance point and the motor’s current limiting device kicks in.

the hammer and hope is just that.  BUT…. if it works, then do it.

The “CRITICAL” symptom is when it starts to fail, the plastic gear assembly will, most likely, be failing.  Thus, when you step out of the MH and put your foot on the step and it didn’t cycle all the way and locked partially out, then the step will break loose and retract.  From a safety standpoint, this is a major fall issue.  I doubt we are all in our 30’s and are physically fit and have quick reflexes and can catch ourselves without injury.

THAT state of the step’s operation is the most dangerous, especially if you or a family member get asked at every medical appointment have you fallen within the last….?

So be aware and don’t try to get the last cycle.  When mine folded up, I pushed it in and didn’t mess with it.  Tested the motor.  Running full cycle, but not locking.  Pulled out motor.  Gear was torn up.  New motor.  No issues..,my steps got a lot of use due to spending only a day or two at a site and then almost 2 years out since purchase.

[Viper04]

Tom

correct! I didn't know the science of the cycling. But looks like I nailed the factory recommendation on frequent lubrication. 
 

Fir 2 bucks or borrow a rubber hammer for free, usually worth a try until a replacement is secured. 
 

Tim

[Gary 05 AMB DST]

Are they still using power window motors or did Lippert just take over the market?

Gary 05 AMB DST

[Tom Cherry]

6 hours ago, Gary 05 AMB DST said:

Are they still using power window motors or did Lippert just take over the market?

Gary 05 AMB DST

Yes & No.  many members and posts on IRV2 list various generic PW PN for a replacement motor. I think that our Parts List may have a NAPA number.  As steps started giving more trouble and breaking down….as well as Lippert owning Kwikee, they started to sell replacement motors. OEM motors were not readily available and/or weee expensive and many DIY’er MH owners took the time to find the exact motor, which appears to have been used in a variety of automotive applications.  

There are many off shore vendors that make the motor.  Tooling for the original motor was typically paid for by the OEM Automotive company like Ford or GM and there was a contractural clause that prevented the supplier from making the OEM motor and selling as a non OEM part.  So, once the non compete clause aged out or expired, then the company with the manufacturing process and tooling could sell someone like NAPA a motor and NAPA had a “where used” cross reference list of all years, brands and models that one particular or unique PN or motor was used in and you could come in and bring the old motor and cross reference it.

That’s how the system works.  A lot of “knock off” vendors in Mexico or the Far East or China broke down the motor assembly and then making a complete Non OEM part.  They knew where it was used and then sold it.  Good as original?  Who knows?  

Lippert is now selling multiple application motors that meet OEM requirements.  So?  You want a knock off motor or an OEM replacement?  Many of the vendors, especially EBay state these are OEM motors…..presumably coming from the same off shoe vendor that made the OEM.  They have labels and PN that are identical to the Lippert motor.  They are priced around $100.  EBay and maybe Amazon has motors listed that are replacement but not sold as “OEM” motor or not presumably manufactured by an OEM vendor.  The were priced about 60 - 70% of the “OEM” ones.  

Mine failed.  Pulled it out.  Ordered one with a label that matched (some had newer or different or revised PN based on the years). Spent 2 hours in 95 deg heat in driveway trying to get the three screws to line up with the six bushing’s precariously in place.  Nope.  The cast hole and location of the replacement motor was off maybe a few thousandths and the threaded holes in the frame had no “tapered” lead in nor did the ends of the fasteners have a pilot or tapered point.  Sent it back.  

The local CW had the Lippert motor ( same OEM PN) in stock and on sale for $20 more than my eBay bargain OEM.  Service Writer quoted me a fixed cost for install… think a shade above $100.  Guess what route I took?

Many US companies sell the entire manufacturing “process” to off shore vendors once the tooling non compete clause expires.  Many OEM OFF SHORE vendors will start making the same PN as a non OEM part and remove the original OEM PN from a stamp or the label.

I chose not to carefully remove say 0.010” from each cast hole and then try again to make the eBay part work.  If you read the posts, some say run a rat tail file through each hole to loosen up the fit as the motor don’t work out of the box.  Others say fit fine the first time.  Since the step needs to lock in on either direction and not cause any damage to the plastic drive gear, I chose a Lippert supplied motor.  My wife and I are in our late ‘70’s and I don’t need a motor that has excess clearance in the through holes flopping around or causing a little damage each time to the plastic gear when it cycles.  I saw my 16 YO GD “catch” herself when the gear failed and then the step fold up.  At 100 pounds she is not obese or overweight….  If that had been me, I probably would have been OK.  BUT mY DW who is having a knee replaced in the early summer, might have sustained a serious injury.

I spent over 10 years in a “almost” dedicated automotive factory that supplied Ford and AMC so I know the in and outs of Ford paying for a new product or upgrading and the “cannot do’s’ of the supplier.

I am not defending Lippert.  But having closed over 35 plants world wide, in a diverse manufacturing arena, including automotive, as well as estimating the tooling upgrades for Ford OEM contracts, I know “the business”.  I doubt Lippert sent folks to all the sources of non OEM parts and bought them out.  But I think they recognized that if they purchased a motor that they tested and would work in the plethora of revisions that Zkwikee and Coach Step went through…..and priced it a little higher than the ones being sold, they might gain enough volume to make a fair margin.  That’s the real world.

if you don’t have experience with small shops, and I helped buy a lot, then I’ll wager that Kwikee and Coach Step got competitive quotes from off shore vendors and swapped vendors and found out which vendors that the other used.  Most small shops, like CoachStep, they find a motor and design the fit and function and travel around it.  They can’t  get a custom cast motor housing to their “wantee”, so the keep buying and hope the vendor doesn’t bust a casting die and then the replacement is off a few degrees (circular) or the cast through holes don’t change because a tool and die maker rebuilt the die and made the holes smaller.  I built carburetors from cast in house bodies, tops and bottoms and precision machined them and purchased a world of stamped parts….

I also taught business management at several community colleges and learned as much from my students going to school at night as I did teaching them to understand manufacturing and logistics or supply chain.

Good question…..

 

 

[Gary 05 AMB DST]

18 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Yes & No.  many members and posts on IRV2 list various generic PW PN for a replacement motor. I think that our Parts List may have a NAPA number.  As steps started giving more trouble and breaking down….as well as Lippert owning Kwikee, they started to sell replacement motors. OEM motors were not readily available and/or weee expensive and many DIY’er MH owners took the time to find the exact motor, which appears to have been used in a variety of automotive applications.  

There are many off shore vendors that make the motor.  Tooling for the original motor was typically paid for by the OEM Automotive company like Ford or GM and there was a contractural clause that prevented the supplier from making the OEM motor and selling as a non OEM part.  So, once the non compete clause aged out or expired, then the company with the manufacturing process and tooling could sell someone like NAPA a motor and NAPA had a “where used” cross reference list of all years, brands and models that one particular or unique PN or motor was used in and you could come in and bring the old motor and cross reference it.

That’s how the system works.  A lot of “knock off” vendors in Mexico or the Far East or China broke down the motor assembly and then making a complete Non OEM part.  They knew where it was used and then sold it.  Good as original?  Who knows?  

Lippert is now selling multiple application motors that meet OEM requirements.  So?  You want a knock off motor or an OEM replacement?  Many of the vendors, especially EBay state these are OEM motors…..presumably coming from the same off shoe vendor that made the OEM.  They have labels and PN that are identical to the Lippert motor.  They are priced around $100.  EBay and maybe Amazon has motors listed that are replacement but not sold as “OEM” motor or not presumably manufactured by an OEM vendor.  The were priced about 60 - 70% of the “OEM” ones.  

Mine failed.  Pulled it out.  Ordered one with a label that matched (some had newer or different or revised PN based on the years). Spent 2 hours in 95 deg heat in driveway trying to get the three screws to line up with the six bushing’s precariously in place.  Nope.  The cast hole and location of the replacement motor was off maybe a few thousandths and the threaded holes in the frame had no “tapered” lead in nor did the ends of the fasteners have a pilot or tapered point.  Sent it back.  

The local CW had the Lippert motor ( same OEM PN) in stock and on sale for $20 more than my eBay bargain OEM.  Service Writer quoted me a fixed cost for install… think a shade above $100.  Guess what route I took?

Many US companies sell the entire manufacturing “process” to off shore vendors once the tooling non compete clause expires.  Many OEM OFF SHORE vendors will start making the same PN as a non OEM part and remove the original OEM PN from a stamp or the label.

I chose not to carefully remove say 0.010” from each cast hole and then try again to make the eBay part work.  If you read the posts, some say run a rat tail file through each hole to loosen up the fit as the motor don’t work out of the box.  Others say fit fine the first time.  Since the step needs to lock in on either direction and not cause any damage to the plastic drive gear, I chose a Lippert supplied motor.  My wife and I are in our late ‘70’s and I don’t need a motor that has excess clearance in the through holes flopping around or causing a little damage each time to the plastic gear when it cycles.  I saw my 16 YO GD “catch” herself when the gear failed and then the step fold up.  At 100 pounds she is not obese or overweight….  If that had been me, I probably would have been OK.  BUT mY DW who is having a knee replaced in the early summer, might have sustained a serious injury.

I spent over 10 years in a “almost” dedicated automotive factory that supplied Ford and AMC so I know the in and outs of Ford paying for a new product or upgrading and the “cannot do’s’ of the supplier.

I am not defending Lippert.  But having closed over 35 plants world wide, in a diverse manufacturing arena, including automotive, as well as estimating the tooling upgrades for Ford OEM contracts, I know “the business”.  I doubt Lippert sent folks to all the sources of non OEM parts and bought them out.  But I think they recognized that if they purchased a motor that they tested and would work in the plethora of revisions that Zkwikee and Coach Step went through…..and priced it a little higher than the ones being sold, they might gain enough volume to make a fair margin.  That’s the real world.

if you don’t have experience with small shops, and I helped buy a lot, then I’ll wager that Kwikee and Coach Step got competitive quotes from off shore vendors and swapped vendors and found out which vendors that the other used.  Most small shops, like CoachStep, they find a motor and design the fit and function and travel around it.  They can’t  get a custom cast motor housing to their “wantee”, so the keep buying and hope the vendor doesn’t bust a casting die and then the replacement is off a few degrees (circular) or the cast through holes don’t change because a tool and die maker rebuilt the die and made the holes smaller.  I built carburetors from cast in house bodies, tops and bottoms and precision machined them and purchased a world of stamped parts….

I also taught business management at several community colleges and learned as much from my students going to school at night as I did teaching them to understand manufacturing and logistics or supply chain.

Good question…..

 

 

Thanks Tom, you can see the route I have taken for replacement. It's been years since I needed a step power motor, via Amazon.

Gary 05 AMB DST

[Robert92867]

I too have a series 32 that quit working.  I took a spare 12v battery and applied 12v direct to the motor leads.  Nothing but a hum.  I pulled off the cover (easy, 4 screws) and found the commutater and brushes glazed with black gunk.  Cleaned with a rag until the surfaces gleamed, then re-assembled.  It worked, but ran backwards.  I pulled the cover off again, rotated 180 degrees and reinstalled.  Works now.